Curbing feedback.

September 1, 2006 8:45 AM

I've been roped into doing sound for a live music night at a pub in town. I haven't the vaguest idea what I'm doing. Having played in venues with horrible sound dudes, I know how frustrating it can be. I would like not to be that horrible sound dude, if at all possible. Can those of you with experience pass on some vital wisdom, or whatever helpful information you can? Thanks.

There will be a basic (I think 12 channel) power mixer with 1 or 2 stage monitors and some compressor mics for vocals. I hope to hell I don't have to mic any live drums.

posted by Evstar to sports, hobbies, & recreation (15 comments total)

This is purely from the perspective of a frequent live-music listener and as a performer, not a sound engineer.

One thing that can ruin an otherwise excellent live show is going with overall levels that are too loud. Ideally, the levels should be set at the sweet spot where the music can reach the back of the room, but where pub-goers can carry on a conversation without raising their voices too much - at least if they're not right in front of the speakers. People are actually more attentive to a performer if they have to lean in or step in to listen in a focused way, and they have a happier night out and a better overall impression of the club and the musician if they can turn and talk to their friends now and then without hollering.

This definitely depends on the type of music and on the venue, of course. You did say 'pub,' which I always take to mean a drinking establishment which emphasizes conversation and socializing. When I go out and find that the sound levels are sooo high that I'm basically forced to do nothing but listen to the band and go through drinks faster 'cause I can't talk, I feel manipulated. (Bar owners sometimes want the levels pushed higher because they do sell more drinks when people can't talk to one another).

Filter all this through the knowledge that a) I am old and b) go out to hear and play mostly roots/alt.country/singer-songwriter/jazz. If this is a hard-rock setting, different recommendations would probably apply.
posted by Miko at 9:16 AM on September 1, 2006

Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook.

And what Miko said about not too loud and distorted.

If they have drums, you'll have to mic them, but you can get by with a stereo pair overhead and a snare mic, if you're careful; the kick is the next one to add.

Thank your god they have compressors for the vocalists.
posted by baylink at 9:34 AM on September 1, 2006

Your link's broke, baylink
posted by InfidelZombie at 9:38 AM on September 1, 2006

(Former High-School Sound Engineer)

Resist the urge to play with things unessecarily. You are not performing. If at all possible, set the levels during some sort of warm up period. In a small pub, do not mike the drum kit, as the other instruments will probably be fighting to be heard over it anyway (unless this is very, very, mellow drumming). Besides, miking a drum kit properly is nontrivial.

Since I don't know anything about your situation here is some more general advice:

1) Always act like you know what you're doing. "Looking Technical" we'll ensure that the performer appreciates you. This is not an excuse to suck, however.
2) Do the monitor mix first, by having (all!) the musicians warm up a bit and listening to their opinions. They know what they want the hear. That said, a good musician doesn't really need a monitor mix at all (i.e. they shouldn't whine), but you're trying to go above and beyond here.
3) Now do the main mix. Most of the technical knowhow in live sound is pretty trivial. The real key is having an ear that can discriminate a good setting. You can't do a good mix by standing behind the board the whole time trimming EQ's. You need to make changes (be bold!) and then walk around a bit (espescially if you have several speakers). Stand in all the extremes of the space (furthest from a speaker an audience member we'll be, closest, etc.) and make mental notes of what needs to change. All throughout this the musicians should be playing. This is the only way to really find settings that work for a particular performer.
4) No matter how bad the vocalist, resist the urge to bury them in the mix. Vocals, no matter how awful, should be prominent.
5) Once they start playing, have faith in the settings you just spent 10-15 minutes finding. Do not freak out and change things (sounds strange, but the urge will strike you). If you feel the need to look busy, very carefully twist EQ knobs on a disused channel with a very... discerning look on your face.
6) If you do your soundcheck with nobody in the room, and then it's packed for the actual performance, bump the mains up a bit, because people are essentially giant bags of water that absorb lots of acoustic energy.

Don't Panic.
posted by phrontist at 9:38 AM on September 1, 2006 [1 favorite]

What is a "compressor mic"? Do you mean they have mics and compressors? Or did you misunderstand condenser mic?

If they have compression availible in any form, go wild on the vocals. The less talented the performer, the more this is required.

If they have drums, you'll have to mic them

I really disagree here. It depends entirely on the style of music being played and the size of the venue.
posted by phrontist at 9:41 AM on September 1, 2006

Okay, a few basic points - (I've run sound a a handful of live venues in DC)

1. Easiest setup - Just mic the vocals. Compress them a little bit (do you know how?), and mix the vocals over the band. This is the classic "punk band at the VFW" mix. A little reverb would probably help here.

2. I'm guessing that you know the band - if you can convince them to keep their stage volume really low, you can mic the guitars and the drums. Just mic the kick and the snare. This will allow you to bring the guitars up during solos, and otherwise have a lot more control over the mix. It'll also have the added benefit of being able to keep overall levels down (like Miko said, too loud is bad. Despite what the bands say, it's bad.)

I would go -

1. kick
2. snare
3. Bass (if you can get a direct line, skip it if not)
4. guitar 1
5. guitar 2
6. vox1
7. vox2

If they've got any other craziness, you can mix that, or not. It's totally up to you. Also, keep in mind that most of the time, you'll have the kick, snare, and vocal faders up. Maybe the guitars to fill in a bit, but probably not much.

More details would be helpful, and if you want, I can definitely give you more advice - email is in the profile.

On preview, that Yamaha Live Reinforcement book kicks some serious ass. It might be a little intimidating for someone who doesn't know anything about sound, but it's truly fantastic.

Oh! Monitors. Geez. Depending on the club, vocals. Tons of 'em. Place the monitors off to the side a little, to minimize feedback, and hope that the engineer before you has set the EQs for the monitors. If not, there's some serious feedback possibilities.

And yeah, you're going to get a ton of opinions on how to make this work - Guys who work in audio are (necessarily) opininated, and tend to be very set in their workflow. If someone's giving you advice that sounds like crap, ditch it. And don't worry too much. No matter how good or bad the mix, you'll always have at least 1 person tell you that $instrument needs to be louder, or that it's the best mix they've ever heard.
posted by god hates math at 9:45 AM on September 1, 2006

It's always a lot to ask to run both the monitors and the main house mix from the same board.

If at all possible, set the levels during some sort of warm up period. This usually won't work. Mainly because the room will sound and act different when it's filled with people. And because usually you're mixing more than one band without presets so you're kind of screwed.

In smaller clubs I'd usually mix my levels to the drums and only mic the drums if necessary.

Don't be afraid to tell the band to turn down. I've seen too many bands who don't understand this.

god's list is pretty good for what to mic, don't be afraid of micing drums, in a live situation it's not that hard because you're really just amplifying and enhancing the sound not the sole input for it like a studio situation. In general this may be a good attitude to take, let the natural levels and tone handle themselves and just enhance what's there with the mix instead of trying to create a fully discrete mix.
posted by bitdamaged at 9:58 AM on September 1, 2006

oh and one trick. If you have a vocalist who doesn't do a good job staying on the mic, turn down the vocals in the monitor. When they can't hear themselves the vocalist will naturally get closer to the mic (and vice versa)
posted by bitdamaged at 10:00 AM on September 1, 2006

"compressor mic" was a typo on my part. I did mean 'condenser.

"I'm guessing that you know the band [...]"

Nope. I imagine that would make things a little easier.

I do know the venue, though, and I've seen the PA setup before. I'll be on the second floor. The room is narrow and long. Worst of all, the PA is concealed in a cabinet right in front of the stage. It would not be easy to make adjustments during performance so a sound check will be essential.

I think I can get away with mic'ing voices and running keyboards direct. I'm crossing my fingers, hoping they have some reasonably loud guitar amps that I won't need to mic or run direct.

Great responses so far! Keep 'em coming.
please.
posted by Evstar at 10:01 AM on September 1, 2006

I nth not too loud. Played in a band for years. That's the most common problem. If something is funky eq-wise, cut offending frequency, don't boost other ranges to fix.
posted by distrakted at 10:19 AM on September 1, 2006

The number one most common mistake is to drown out the vocals (happens at so many non-pro live shows it's unbelievable). Don't make this mistake.
posted by reklaw at 10:24 AM on September 1, 2006

General tips I haven't seen covered:

On feedback: Put the "front of house" speakers in front of the stage (on each side - facing the crowd) and put the stage monitors in front of the mics (facing the rear, turned twoards the musicians on stage). The keys to avoiding feedback are volume control and never aiming a mic at the speakers. Set up the mixing console dead center, somewhere between the middle and 3/4 of the way towards the back of the room from the stage.

Also...don't be part of the show. Resist the urge to fiddle. Don't get tricky, adding echo and stuff. Like umpires, the best ones are completely transparent. Let the players do the playing. You only notice the sound guy if he does a bad job.

Bitdamaged's trick lead singer mind trick is an very very good one.
posted by edverb at 12:35 PM on September 1, 2006

Feeling embarassed.

actual link
posted by baylink at 7:48 PM on September 1, 2006

One tip: be sure to be familiar enough with the location of the monitor level knobs so that you can kill feedback screech nearly instantly. That's a real mood killer. My technique is to immediately drop the overall monitor level, then bring the monitors right back up one at a time until you've identified which one was screeching; do that in the first 5-10 seconds so that at least most of the band has the monitors they need to keep playing. Then start fiddling with the individual channel monitor sends until you find the offending channel.

Of course, it's often obvious where the source is ... guitarist facing his amp, singer dropping mic down to waist and aiming at monitors, etc. That behavior is usually self-correcting :)
posted by intermod at 8:44 PM on September 1, 2006

This may be too technical for what you are looking for but it has helped me immensely.

Watch your gain structure. First, turn down all the trim knobs at the very top of each channel. Set all aux sends to zero.

Set the overall fader to its optimimum position (usually marked as about 75% of its overall travel to the top). You should be hearing nothing at this point.

During soundcheck, go channel by channel. For that channel you are working on, set the fader at the bottom to its unity position (again, should be marked about 75% of its travel) KEEP THE TRIM KNOB at zero to start.

Do one at a time, asking the performer to speak or play into that mic. Slowly raise the TRIM knob until you have some good volume in the system. Make sure no red overload indicators are lighting up.

Rinse, lather, repeat. When you have all of the channels done, your gain throughout the system should be a lot more in control. You should also set a rough mix with all the faders at 'unity' just by setting the input gains.

Frankly in a small club I wouldn't mess with any effects your first time out.

The opposite way that has gotten me in trouble running sound in the past is closer to what happens in the recording world. This would be to raise the trim pot to just before overload on each channel, so I'd end up with a bunch of strong channels and channel and main faders set really low. This makes the system prone to distortion.

If you'd like a better explanation, shoot me an email.
posted by toastchee at 4:57 AM on September 2, 2006