Comments on: Babymama drama, linguistic.

Question: Babymama drama, linguistic.

norm — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:01:38 -0800

Is my wife my babymama?

My wife and I have an extended disagreement going as to the propriety of the term "babymama" as it relates to a married mother. My position, as supported by such reputable sources as Eminem, is that the moniker is generic enough to encompass even my wife. She, on the other hand, holds that "babymama" only refers to a mother of your child who is not formally attached. Our friends tend to split rather evenly on this issue, with roughly 75% of the men supporting me and about 75% of the women on her side. What saith the hivemind?

By: sugarfish

sugarfish — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:04:59 -0800

I agree with your wife. Babymama is a term distinct from wife or girlfriend, since you don't have to be involved any longer.

By: Rock Steady

Rock Steady — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:05:53 -0800

I'm with you Norm. Your babymama is the mother of (any one of) your children, regardless of what complicated personal relationship now, then, or in the future.

Good luck with your babymama drama.

By: GeekAnimator

GeekAnimator — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:06:13 -0800

Urban Dictionary's take

By: neustile

neustile — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:06:41 -0800

Urbandictionary's top 10 seem to be siding with your wife.

By: Rock Steady

Rock Steady — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:06:44 -0800

...personal relationship [you and she may share] now, then...

By: dead_

dead_ — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:07:42 -0800

You're definitely right, you're wife is wrong on this one. Rock Steady has it, key point being: regardless of what complicated personal relationship now, then, or in the future.

By: Ø

Ø — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:08:51 -0800

I agree with your wife.

NPR usage also supports her position: "'Baby Mama' is slang for the mother of a child born out of wedlock."

By: dead_

dead_ — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:09:33 -0800

And I'd also like to take this opportunity to point everyone toward the classic hit, "My Baby'z Mama" by Eazy-E. (Link is to lyrics)

By: norm

norm — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:09:40 -0800

I will clarify that I am, in fact, the father of our child.

Sugarfish's point is one that often comes up to support my wife's side:

I agree with your wife. Babymama is a term distinct from wife or girlfriend, since you don't have to be involved any longer.

The counterargument here is that neither wife nor girlfriend conveys the meaning that "babymama" does, since neither indicate the maternal relation. A friend that weighed in with this point (over libations, natch) last night argued that "mother of my child" is the term in such a case, because of the extra respect accorded. Yet, that doesn't address the fact that this neologism exists as a quick-reference term that is easier to say than such a cumbersome phrase.

By: chrisamiller

chrisamiller — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:14:32 -0800

I'm inclined to side with you. A woman cannot be both your wife and your baby mama simultaneously. Should a messy divorce occur, I believe that reversion to baby mama status may be acceptable, though.

By: Ø

Ø — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:17:00 -0800

...since neither indicate the maternal relation

Unless people have information that would put the assumption in question, they're going to assume that your wife is the mother of your child.

You have a point about girlfriends, though.

By: dead_

dead_ — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:17:14 -0800

A woman cannot be both your wife and your baby mama simultaneously.

Why not? Doesn't "Baby Mama" imply "Baby's mother"? One can certainly be a man's wife and also the "baby's mother".

By: Terminal Verbosity

Terminal Verbosity — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:21:31 -0800

Babymama and babbydaddy are terms that, in my vanilla, suburban, WASPish understanding, came about specifically to differentiate between married and unmarried parents. "Baby's mother" implies that your relationship with her is strictly incubatorial. I believe your wife is right.

A wife can be a mother, but not a babymama (unless to another person not her spouse).
A babymama is always a mother, but never a wife (except for soap opera plots as in above)
A mother can be either, but not both (unless...yeah, you get it)

By: Amizu

Amizu — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:22:35 -0800

The Susu in Guinea have this term as well (dinga - di (child) + nga (mother) = baby mama). There it doesn't apply to one's wife (wives) as far as I can tell.

By: cowbellemoo

cowbellemoo — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:23:01 -0800

Even if it does connote connection separate from a romantic one, does she really have a problem if you're using it ironically?

By: Ø

Ø — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:23:08 -0800

Why not?

Because the whole point of the term is to refer to her while disclaiming (or at least without implying that you have) any current relationship to her.

By: dead_

dead_ — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:27:36 -0800

Actually, upon further research, I'm inclined to switch my interpretation and agree with your wife. Here's a lyric from Brand Nubian's "Baby Mama Drama":

If ya have a kid with a chick then I hope that chu' love her /
There's no stress like Baby Mother

Which agrees with much of what has been said above, implying that you have no real (legally recognized?) relationship with the mother of your child.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:27:53 -0800

I'm with your wife. As Ø points out, it's normally used to refer to a women you aren't romantically attached to, she just happens to be the mother of your baby.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:28:22 -0800

Technically she's your "Baby's mamma" but I mean, the way the term is used it dosn't really apply, just like "anti-semite" is used to describe someone who hates jews, rather then someone who hates all semetic people.

By: box

box — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:28:51 -0800

What we need is a big collection of examples of people using the term, so that we can see how they use it.

Urbandictionary's a good start, but don't discount the awesome resource that is the Online Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive.

I'm not a linguist, a social scientist or a statistician, but I'll get you started:

"I'll make your baby mama leave you and tell you she love me"--Trick Daddy, 'Based on a True Story'

That's one checkmark under 'inclusive.'

By: Amizu

Amizu — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:29:23 -0800

Oh, and your wife is right. As your wife, it is presumed under the law (and in society) that she is the mother of your child(ren). Babymama would be redundant when referring to a wife. It's a special term for the mother of a man's kids when the couple is no longer together (or possibly when they're dating).

If I were a wife and a mama, though, I would consider it a cute, ironic term of endearment if my husband called me his babymama.

By: cillit bang

cillit bang — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:29:57 -0800

Slate says originally no, now, probably yes.

By: ThePinkSuperhero

ThePinkSuperhero — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:30:05 -0800

Ditto Amizu.

By: La Cieca

La Cieca — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:33:56 -0800

Basically this is similar to a divorcee's saying, "Next weekend my children will be staying with their father." In other words, the relationship to the ex is defined solely in terms of "this is my child, who is also his child."

If a more direct relationship exists (husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, even if you are comfortable saying, "this is is my ex"), then there is no real need for "baby mama."

By: deadfather

deadfather — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:37:32 -0800

Ø has it. The term's rise to prominence filled a void in modern language: what to call the person with whom the only real bond (past, present, or future) is the resulting child.

No doubt your wife's (and many women's) reluctance to accept your loose interpretation of the term stems from the emotional detachment it implies.

By: ferociouskitty

ferociouskitty — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:39:40 -0800

I really don't want to confuse the issue any further, but amongst my circle of friends, at least, we've used 'babydaddy' to mean 'a man we would like to have a torrid affair with, but not a relationship,' i.e., "Johnny Depp is my babydaddy."

By: norm

norm — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:41:23 -0800

Ok, it's clear that the preponderance of the people here are siding (incorrectly, of course!) with my wife, so I'm a-gonna have to lay out my case so that the full argument may be considered.

It seems that there are a few different positions being taken on the definition. Mine is the "babymama inclusive" position, that the term, taken broadly, refers to all mothers of (someone's) children (which leads to the awesome question of "is your mom your dad's babymama?" In every definition, yes, because they are divorced). Some argue for the "babymama exclusive" definition, where the 'mother of my child' is the sole (remaining) relation. My wife, and some of the people here, argue for an "all but married" definition, which is that your girlfriend can be your babymama, but your wife cannot.

I'm so far finding the appeals to authority not necessarily persuasive. I mean, NPR? A legal redundancy argument? This is a newly coined term that is commonly used by, shall we say, an audience that is underserved by the law and public radio. The urban dictionary is user defined and therefore of questionable reliability.

A more convincing vein of evidence does appear to be hip-hop lyrics, as this shows the actual usage of this new vernacular. As mentioned in the [more inside], Eminem clearly makes reference to Kim as his babymama, despite their married status. I can think of lyrics from both Outkast and Lil' Jon that refer to babymamas that are jealous of their other women. These examples argue pretty convincingly against "babymama inclusive", but my wife points out that her "all but married" definition is not touched by such.

I find all of this very, perhaps unnaturally, interesting.

By: norm

norm — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:42:44 -0800

Of course I meant "babymama exclusive" in my last actual paragraph. D'oh.

By: exceptinsects

exceptinsects — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:49:31 -0800

Yes but WERE Eminem and Kim married at the time of the song?

By: browse

browse — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:50:52 -0800

I am reminded that I used to refer to my wife as "the married woman I live with".

Of course, she once introduced me as "browse, my first husband" (whilst we were still married).

Do I even need to say I'm no longer married?

By: Amizu

Amizu — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:52:40 -0800

Eminem and Kim have been divorced twice, I believe. Maybe he refered to her as his babymama when she was not his wife.

Yes, the BBC (!) reported that Eminem and Kim divorced for a second time.

By: muddgirl

muddgirl — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:54:30 -0800

I agree with the "all but wife" definition - Eminem is a tricky case that I do not think applies, because him and "Mrs. Shady" have been alternately married and divorced - she has been both his wife AND babymama.

Furthermore, I think babymama is often used more specifically (by men) to refer to situations where they live with (or take care of, etc) a woman and their child, but are still somehow "unattached" and free to roam about with other women. They have an obligation to their "babymama" that is different than an obligation to a girlfriend or wife. (This is mostly from that awful show "Cheaters").

By: milarepa

milarepa — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:58:18 -0800

I don't think any one can say for sure if your wife is your babymama.

When 50% of people say one thing and 50% say the other, than the word means both things. (I personally think she is your babymama -- she is your baby's mama after all.)

But one thing you can be sure of: If you get divorced, she won't be your ex-wife, she'll definitely be your babymama.

By: desuetude

desuetude — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:13:58 -0800

It's not technically erroneous to call your wife your babymama. But it does imply that you consider her to be the woman who pushed out your kid, and that's it. Which is not how most men would characterize their wife. (Unless they're looking to be no longer burdened by matrimony.)

By: rob511

rob511 — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:15:53 -0800

norm, I'm bemused: Most AxMe peeps be hangin' wit' yo lady on this one. So howzat diss you, bro?

After all, we're discussing a slang definition in the hiphop world. You want a final answer? Take it to the MLA.

By: clh

clh — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:16:00 -0800

I wouldn't think it was cute if my husband referred to me as his babymama. I think of that word as a somwhat deragatory term implying that, as others have said, the only connection between the two people is their child. Not unlike a divorced parent referring to their ex as "my son's father".

By: Rock Steady

Rock Steady — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:17:58 -0800

I got a man but I really want yours/
That nigga had you thinking he was with his boys/
You just the babymama and I don't see the drama/
- Dirty South Divas, "Yo Baby Daddy"

She gon be somebody/
Instead of somebody-babymama/
- De La Soul, "Trying People"

You comin in when ya shorty take ya lil one to school/
Even though she caused the drama, you love ya babymama/
- 50 Cent, "I'll Whip Your Head Boy"

Gotta hurt I'm your babymama's favorite rapper/
And ask your current girl, she knows what's up/
- Jay-Z, "Super Ugly"

So, I'm starting to come around to a slightly different conclusion on this. And here's the thing: regardless of whether it is technically correct to say that your wife is your babymama, it is not appropriate (well, I'm assuming some things here). It is clearly a negative term. If not actually derogatory, it is certainly dismissive. Whether or not you are married to your babymama, you probably don't respect her.

By: cobaltnine

cobaltnine — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:19:17 -0800

I would just suggest that perhaps she - and many other females - are uncomfortable with the implication that your relationship to her is expressed solely through shared creation of offspring. It implies, to me, that the woman's key role in the relationship is of mother rather than chosen companion ('wife').

So I side with the 'don't use it for someone you're married to', because there's already a more unique term for that person which doesn't require a referent.

By: Jess the Mess

Jess the Mess — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:37:03 -0800

I take great delight in referring to my brother's wife as his "babymama". But she probably refers to me as the sister-in-law from hell.

By: saturnine

saturnine — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:39:33 -0800

Babymama is the ex-girlfriend you had a kid with, and didn't care for enough to have a relationship with. I didn't realise there could be any kind of debate as to what it meant, but maybe I've watched too much Ricki Lake in my time.

By: Melinika

Melinika — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:50:24 -0800

Another agreement with your wife - the term would have a negative connotation should you apply it to the woman you're married to. It applies to a woman you have no other attachment, hence needing a way to describe your connection to her (mother of your child).

By: The Bellman

The Bellman — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:52:55 -0800

ferociouskitty: "You keep on using that word. I do no think it means what you think it means."

By: croutonsupafreak

croutonsupafreak — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:19:50 -0800

Only if she's also your future ex-wife.

By: falconred

falconred — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:33:24 -0800

Your wife is correct - the term is used to refer to women who are the mother of your child but not your legal wife or social girlfriend.

By: norm

norm — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:55:39 -0800

History will bear out my interpretation. Every time Kevin Federline is called a baby daddy, ~~an angel gets his wings~~ we move closer to the inclusive meaning.

By: AmbroseChapel

AmbroseChapel — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:23:32 -0800

One thing is clear -- rappers like rhyming "babymamma" and "drama". There should be a campaign for new rhymes. "I was with your babymamma/while you were in the slammer" -- see? How hard is that? Exercise for the reader: "grammar", "Yokohama", "Dalai Lama".

I agree that the word shouldn't be used for wives, and using Eminem and Kim as an example of a married couple isn't going to win many arguments.

By: precocious

precocious — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:48:15 -0800

I do believe that the concept of baby's mama, and baby's daddy came about as an easy way of saying, "The father of my child," or "The mother of my child," in instances where saying, "My husband," or "My wife," wouldn't fit. So I believe the general assumption is that if someone is your baby mamma, or your baby daddy, you are not married (otherwise, you would say husband/wife.)

HOWEVER, there is nothing that prohibits it from being used for people who are married.

For example, the use of the word "lover" (as in, "He's my lover") implies that there isn't a marriage. And yet I know of two different married couples wherein one person refers to the other as a lover, and the term is accurate, even though the connotation might trip the casual listener up.

By: TG_Plackenfatz

TG_Plackenfatz — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:58:10 -0800

"I was with your babymamma/while you were in the slammer" -- see? How hard is that?

In what accent does that rhyme?

By: afu

afu — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:22:41 -0800

you are right and everybody else is wrong. Rock Steady nailed it

By: languagehat

languagehat — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:25:05 -0800

Why not? Doesn't "Baby Mama" imply "Baby's mother"? One can certainly be a man's wife and also the "baby's mother".

That's not how language works. The only relevant consideration is how it's used (delmoi's comparison to "anti-semite" is excellent), and my impression (supported by most of what's been cited here) is that it's not used for wives. Case closed, and defendant is ordered to mollify his wife like a man.

*slams gavel, pours one for his homies*

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:31:41 -0800

"This is a newly coined term that is commonly used by, shall we say, an audience that is underserved by the law and public radio. The urban dictionary is user defined and therefore of questionable reliability."

The Slate article had a good explication of the term, which dates from the '60s.

We can only help you so much if you just want to be told you're right (which you're not).

(And I add to this that I've just discussed this with a pal who does rehab intake interviews, who supports the general belief that your wife is right and that you are wrong.)

By: raedyn

raedyn — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:12:21 -0800

And no matter what anyone outside of your marriage says it does or does not mean, when your wife hears you say it about her, she hears you calling her the mother of your child to whom you are not formally attached. Is this what you want her to think you're saying?

By: Human Flesh

Human Flesh — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:48:27 -0800

In what accent does that rhyme?

Granted it's an assonant rhyme, but slammer does rhyme with mamma in non-rhotic dialects.

By: ClaudiaCenter

ClaudiaCenter — Mon, 28 Aug 2006 00:28:18 -0800

I'm with languagehat. I've heard lots of urban teenage kids (I'm a foster parent) use the word (phrase?) "babbymamma," and have never ever (ever) heard it being used to describe someone with whom there is a current social relationship. Same with clients at our direct services law clinic at work.

By: jenfullmoon

jenfullmoon — Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:12:10 -0800

I suddenly feel compelled to post the lyrics to My Baby Daddy, out of sheer fairness.

I second all those who say that baby mama's are someone you impregnated, but didn't have much of a relationship with.

By: norm

norm — Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:45:22 -0800

I'll note that the consensus agrees with my wife. I'll further note that many of the piler-onners late in the thread have a serious problem with a) not using warrants with their claims; b) making precipitous assumptions about the way I use the term; and c) acting superior. Get over yourselves. It's a question about the word "babymama", you dorks.