Dog Welping and Morning Routine

August 11, 2006 11:56 AM

Ok. Got a little puppy. Doing the crate training thing. We understand that a schedule is important for a puppy. So we are using a schedule like this

: Go to sleep around 10-10:30 p.m. Wake up when our alarm goes off; 7:00 a.m. Play for a half hour. Walk. Eat. When the dog goes in the crate, like all dogs, there is the typical welping/crying for a very brief time (~30 seconds). In the morning, though, he starts it at about 6:50 a.m. and keeps going. Lord knows when he finally stops... he went to 7:10 a.m one morning. So here is my question: If schedule is important, then I need to get him up at 7:00 a.m. However, I have also heard that you shouldn't respond to welping/crying because then it confirms to the dog that such tactics work. At 7:00 a.m, I go in there and get him out while he is welping. What to do? We want him to sleep in the crate in the kitchen as opposed to our bedroom. We can't sleep when he is welping/crying so he is waking us up before our alarm and makes weekends a living hell if we've been up the night before. Is this something that goes away with age? Or must it be trained out of him? (It's not a potty thing; he has a litterbox in his crate at the suggestion of the breeder that he uses like a good boy. He just wants attention and wants to play).

posted by dios to pets & animals (24 comments total)

Shorter version of the question:

If dog is welping at the time it is to get up, which is more important: the schedule or not giving him attention when he is welping?
posted by dios at 12:02 PM on August 11, 2006

I am not a dog training expert, but I would like to see a photo of the puppy.
posted by miss tea at 12:03 PM on August 11, 2006

Even with the litter box, 10:00-7:00 is a long time for the little guy to be in a crate (and I crate train too, by the way, so I'm not criticizing your choice!). Keeping him in the kitchen, away from the rest of the pack, might also be compounding this issue. He probably wants to be with you, and if you're in the same room it's easier for you to comfort him without removing him from the crate.

As far as taking him out, don't expect him to completely stop crying. At first, you might just have to jump on any gap of a few seconds of silence, take him out and praise him big time.

Basically, though, sleeping in ending for my husband and I when we got out puppy. He's now a year old and sleeps through the night on his own bed in our bedroom, but it took him growing up (calming down a bit and being able to hold his bladder for longer) to get there. Don't despair!
posted by handful of rain at 12:03 PM on August 11, 2006

When my dog slept in her cage (while she was still potty-training), she would do that annoying whining thing when she wanted to get up. I would say, NO, in a loud, firm voice. She would stop the whining when I did that (and then I'd say, Good girl!), stand at attention and wait to come out. I found that behavior appropriate. YMMV.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:04 PM on August 11, 2006 [1 favorite]

As I understand it, the point of crate training is to house-train the dog, that is, to get it to eliminate outside, on the theory that dogs are reluctant to crap in their dens. Having a litterbox in the crate seems to defeat this purpose, as does keeping the puppy in when he indicates he wants out.
posted by orthogonality at 12:06 PM on August 11, 2006

what ortho said
posted by matteo at 12:11 PM on August 11, 2006

I am not a dog training expert, but I would like to see a photo of the puppy.
posted by miss tea at 2:03 PM CST on August 11

Sure.
posted by dios at 12:15 PM on August 11, 2006

As with those above, I don't think that litter boxes and crates mix {litter boxes for dogs? wtf?}, but when my dog is in his cage and crying, I go in there and bang on the cage and shout "no!" until he shuts up. I am from the country though, and so don't believe in coddling animals. You got to let him know that you are in charge and that what he is doing is unacceptable. NO! *bang*! I'm the boss! You shut up! *bang*!
posted by ND¢ at 12:17 PM on August 11, 2006 [1 favorite]

Ok, let me clarify: this particular breed takes to litter box training well. When I said "crate training," I didn't intend to indicate the goal was to get him only use outside. Rather, he stays in a crate/cage like thingy that has negative space the size of a little dog crate as well as a litterbox. It works exceptionally well. It took him about a week to figure it out. Again, the crying has nothing to do with that.
posted by dios at 12:18 PM on August 11, 2006

Quick idea - Have you tried starting him sleeping in the crate, in your room, then moving him further and further away every night?

If he's pining for your company, this may well help him get used to being in the crate and *with* you. Then, a few weeks and many feet later, he's still in his crate but in the right place for you.

I've seen a similar tactic work on a popular childcare programme, with the parent staying with the child until he/she is asleep. The parent sits on the bed at first, then slowly, night by night, gets further away until they're downstairs and the child is familiar and comfortable with the idea.

Good luck, he's a cute one :)
posted by triv at 12:28 PM on August 11, 2006

Dogs are pack animals. Last week, I was house sitting for my mom, and I was like a rock star: I had three dogs literally following my every move. I got up, they followed me. I sat down, they sat down on me or stuck a maw in my lap. I got the leashes, they did a dance; I didn't get the leashes I got stared down until I did.

And each night, I'd tell them "bedtime, bedtime", and they'd troop into into bedroom, looking back to make sure I was following them. If I didn't let them into the bedroom, they'd whine and whine until I let them in. If I didn't come into the bedroom after I'd let them in, they'd whine to be let back out. Wherever I was, was where they wanted to be.

Now, admittedly, I'm a soft touch and the little bastards have my number.

But the truth is, dogs are adapted by evolution to be pack animals, and they are most comfortable with their pack leader. For your dog, dios, you are the pack leader. In the environment the dog is evolutionarily adapted to, extended separation from the pack leader means death, so he's built to stress about that and do what he can to prevent it. In the environment he's adapted to, dens are good things but being trapped in a "den" he can't get out of is a threat.

You can train him to suppress his instincts, but he's not going to be happy about that.
posted by orthogonality at 12:29 PM on August 11, 2006

I'm not in agreement about banging on the crate and yelling. The dog needs to learn to like the crate, regard it as a good safe place. Be sure to praise when he goes in, when's he's in there behaving, and when he comes out. You might just have to get up earlier for a while. I think he'll get used to the routine.
posted by beagle at 12:32 PM on August 11, 2006

I am crate training my second puppy now and have had a similar problem with crying. My approach is to take the puppy out to relieve himself if he cries, then put him right back in the crate. I completely ignore any other crying, particularly if I know that he has already been out.

Next, what I do is set the alarm. I started with it set before he was likely to get up, at like 5:30 originally. When the alarm goes off, we get up and take the dog out (even if he has been out recently), and feed him breakfast. The goal of this is to get the pup used to the idea that he will be in his crate until he hears the alarm.

After a few days of the 5:30 wake-up, I started moving the alarm ahead in about 10-15 minute increments. He still wakes up a little ahead of the alarm most mornings and cries some. If it is close to alarm time, I just ignore him until the alarm goes off. If it is far away from alarm time, I get the alarm clock and set it for about 3-4 minutes into the future, then just pretend to be asleep until it goes off. The next day, I move forward again from that time. Again, the key is to get the pup attuned to the alarm sound, rather than some other regularly occurring sound in the environment (in my case, air traffic that starts up at 6).

It takes maybe a month or so, but eventually the dog keys on the alarm and sleeps later and later waiting to hear it. Then you can generally sleep in a bit more.

One other thing, though - the moving ahead needs to be gradual because puppies get used to eating at certain times (or in response to certain stimuli) and start to produce lots of stomach acid in advance. If you delay feeding too long on a dog who is doing this, he can eventually throw up the excess acidic bile.
posted by procrastination at 12:41 PM on August 11, 2006

I think your best bet is to jump on any extended silence, even if it's only a few seconds. We had to do this with two kittens and it was unbelieveably frustrating to stand outside their "safe room" waiting for them to shut up so we could let them out.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:43 PM on August 11, 2006

Wait for biscotti to say something smarter, but in the meantime, I'd suggest:

(1) No litter box in the crate. Outside is for le pee and le poo. Inside is not for excretory activities, ever ever ever.
(2) Put the crate in your bedroom. Dogs is pack animals, so let him be with his pack when he wakes up.
(3) I understand not wanting to reward the yelping. I would start a "quiet" command -- mostly you just need to distract the dog so he shuts up for a few seconds. Then when he's yelping in the morning, tell him to be quiet and let him out when he does. Thus you reward obedience.
(4) Some dogs just hate crates. Our little guy goes, except while in the car.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:11 PM on August 11, 2006

Thanks, Dios. He's a funny fuzzy cute little guy. :)
posted by miss tea at 1:38 PM on August 11, 2006

Why keep him in a crate at all? My dog is house trained and left from 9 to 5 he doesn't pee or crap in the house. I never understand this American obsession with crates - don't know a single dog owner in the UK that does it. I wonder what the cultural origins are.
posted by A189Nut at 1:38 PM on August 11, 2006

Yeah what's the crate for if you have a litterbox in it? I have never heard of this, this is crazy.
posted by geoff. at 1:50 PM on August 11, 2006

The litter box thing seems weird to me, but if I ever would do such a thing I would put it at the opposite end of the house from his crate (which I'd put in the bedroom with you). If he whines before your official wake up time, take him either outside (my preference) or to the box (yuck), give hime a couple of minutes to eliminate and then take hime back to the crate. If he whines then, give him one strong "No!," and then ignore him. Make sure he's stopped whining, even if only briefly, before you let him out.
posted by timeistight at 1:54 PM on August 11, 2006

In the words of prince, I was dreaming when I wrote this, please forgive me if it goes astray. It's kind of . . . scattershot.

My dog is now perfectly crate trained. It's a perfectly valid thing to do. They're hutch animals, they don't mind. My dog now even sort of digs his own "private place."

What I had to do to GET him that way, though, was a pain in the balls. For starters, and in the interest of full disclosure, my dog is a Beagle, which is *very* pack oriented and socially needy. His major problem with the crate was aloneness, so I had to sleep on the floor next to it for a night or two, then move to the bed, and so forth. You probably don't need to do that, but the bedroom thing is not a bad idea. It can go one of two ways: he is comforted by your presence or agitated by his captivity and your freedom. Could go either way. For my dog, it was the latter.

Up there with procrastination, too. Part of the reason he's yelping, I think, is because that's WAY too long in the crate. You're going to have to adjust your schedule for a month or two. (What, you thought *he* was the only one being trained?) Wake up in the middle of the night to let him out, then recrate him. As his system develops, you can put this off longer and longer until he'll sleep through the night.

But, as said above, that is too long to keep your dog (a puppy, especially) in a crate. It's bad on their system and just sort of uncomfortable. By all means, take the little pan OUT of the crate, as said above. This is, for all intents and purposes, the little guy's bedroom. Shitting in it is absolutely discouraged. In fact, the crate needs to be big enough for him to stand up and lay down, but not much beyound that. Too much extra room, and he'll piss and shit regardless of paper/litter, and that'll make him enjoy the crate even less.

Have no fear, though! He *will* be broken of this. (Or, at least, he *can* be.) Do you give him treats before putting him in there? I've found that's gotten me a lot of traction, after repeat uses. Also, when crating, make sure you're not hostile or angry or aggressive. That only associates the crate with punishment, rather than safety. Dragging is fine if necessary, but try to keep a pleasant face on it.
posted by absalom at 1:59 PM on August 11, 2006

You might want to use the words "yelping" or "whining" in the future... "whelping" means the act of birthing puppies.
posted by IndigoRain at 2:00 PM on August 11, 2006

According to WikiPedia:

The amount of hours a puppy can hold its bowels is approximately equal to the number of months of its age. For example, if a puppy is 5 months old, then it can usually hold for 5 hours. This is true until the puppy is 10 months old, when 10 hours is the maximum time for any age. However, some breeds, especially the basset hound and many of the toy breeds are harder to housebreak than others. [emphasis added]

posted by timeistight at 2:26 PM on August 11, 2006

Nthing the posters above. I went through this process recently with another small breed dog (shih tzu) and he would not eliminate ANYWHERE even near his crate. Ever. That breed is another breed that is particularly well suited to litter training, but I still would not put the litter box IN the crate even with a separator. Just my 2 cents. I think it's uncomfortable for the animal to eliminate even near his bed simply because of instinct, and it is possible that some of the crying is due to that. YMMV, and certainly, raise your dog as you wish.

I also agree with the posters that suggest moving the dog's crate to the bedroom. We had a crying problem the first night. I bought a crate that had a side and top opening. I left the top open at night. The first night we put him in there, he cried. I reach down to reassure him we were there, and gave him his stuffed animal. He went to sleep. The time/crying got shorter each night. Dogs want to be with their pack. He also woke me up early in the morning, similar to the way you describe, because of his need to eliminate. I took him out, put him back in the cage, and he snoozed as long as I did. We also gave him a cookie every time he went in the crate, whether he was being shut in or not. We also made sure to put him in there deliberately without shutting it from time to time just to chill out. We didn't want him to associate the crate as being locked up all the time. Good luck to you!
posted by theantikitty at 6:10 PM on August 11, 2006

A189Nut, crate training is a perfectly valid way of house training a dog. If somebody lives in an apartment without easy access to the outdoors, or a home without somebody there all day, it is the quickest and easiest way to potty train a dog. Dogs will only eliminate in their den as a last resort. The dog also looks at the crate as his den, the same way they would dig out a hole in the woods to sleep in. When I'm at home, the dogs are out and with me. The crate door is open. If the dogs get tired or need a break from each other, they go into their crate of their own volition and take a nap. They look at it as a safe place. When I'm gone, they sleep, and don't tear up the house. (They are two rambunctious Boston Terriers, about a year old) I'm sure when they are completely out of the puppy phase, I won't have to worry about them destroying the house, but until I trust them and they can behave for 5-6 hours at a time, they get to sleep in their crate when I'm not home.

Dios, litter box training is fine for small breeds, but I'd suggest putting the crate in the kitchen blocked off with baby gates or a small bathroom when you are not around. Leave the door open, and put the litter box as far from the crate as possible. If you intend to eventually have him do all of his business outside, never praise him for using the box. Otherwise, you'll just confuse him later when all of a sudden, its not okay to use the litter anymore. He can't make it through the night without going yet, so just plan on getting up at 3:30 or 4:00 for a couple of months, if you want to sleep in some. Don't worry, they grow out of it.
posted by Roger Dodger at 6:59 PM on August 11, 2006