Comments on: Ever thus to deadbeats, Lebowski.

Question: Ever thus to deadbeats, Lebowski.

Brian James — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:47:02 -0800

What does "ever thus" mean?

As in, "It was ever thus." Is this line an allusion to some work of literature? "Ever thus" appears once in the works of Shakespare, in Twelfth Night. And of course it is uttered by Woo in The Big Lebowski, "Ever thus to deadbeats, Lebowski," as he pees on The Dude's rug (which really tied the room together).

By: steadystate

steadystate — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:50:33 -0800

I think it's just an old-fashioned (and lit'ry) way of saying, "It is (was) always this way."

By: jjg

jjg — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:51:35 -0800

The allusion is to Shakespeare. It means "it has always been this way" and implies "...and it always will be". So in the rug scene, Woo is essentially disclaiming responsibility for his actions; he is merely the instrument of some sort of cosmic justice.

By: alms

alms — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:51:56 -0800

I'd translate it as "It's always been like that."

By: theredpen

theredpen — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:52:32 -0800

Yes, "this way always," as in "sic semper tyrannis": ever thus to tyrants. Or this (presumably bad) way [is how it should be] always for tyrants/deadbeats.

By: zoinks

zoinks — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:59:06 -0800

Virginia state flag.

1. sic semper tyrannus
Expression of Latin origin which means: "Thus always to tyrants.", but maybe more easier to digest as: "This is what (had/have/will) always happen/-s/-ed to tyrants." {Taken from Dr.Weevil/www.doctorweevil.org}
Sic semper evello mortem tyrannus; Thus death always comes to tyrants.

Also:
After Booth shot Lincoln he lept on the stage from Lincoln's box, breaking his leg. As he ran from the stage, some heard Booth shout sic semper tyrannus , which is Latin for "thus always to tyrants".

By: Acetylene

Acetylene — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:01:14 -0800

As others have said, it's an allusion to "sic semper tyrannis," but "sic semper deadbeats" sounds awkward. Hence the translation, even though the original quotation is much more frequently cited in Latin than English.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:06:52 -0800

You're mixing up two different things. Just plain "ever thus" is simply an archaic phrase meaning "always that way"; it's not particularly an allusion to Shakespeare, even if he used it—he used lots of phrases. And it has to do with "sic semper tyrannis" only in the Lebowski quote.

As for "It was ever thus," in general, as jjg says, It means "it has always been this way" and implies "...and it always will be". It's also (probably more commonly) given as 'Twas ever thus, and it's a humorous mock-antique phrase of mock-lament. The useful Cassell's Dictionary of Catchphrases says it's "From the early nineteenth century"; I don't know how reliable that is (the phrase isn't in the OED), but it's probably a good general indicator.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:18:49 -0800

It's a common turn of phrase in the UK, albeit the sort of thing you'd only read in broadsheet newspapers, or hear spoken in a self-aware way by wordy people. I'd think that it's most often used at the close of a discussion, so, eg., at the end of a conversation about a corrupt politician, someone might say (or, more likely, sigh), 'It was ever thus', and the talk would turn to another topic. Journalistically speaking, you also see it fairly often in reviews, parenthetically, usually in a slightly mocking way, to suggest that, eg., an artist or musician's use of a certain device is a bit hackneyed. Useful pair of words, really.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:21:31 -0800

On not-previewing: languagehat has it - 'ever thus' is definitely independent of 'sic semper tyrannis'.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:25:27 -0800

And it's most commonly seen as "'Twas ever thus", which looks a bit Dickensian to me.

(Sorry for the multiple comments)

By: verstegan

verstegan — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:53:11 -0800

'Humorous mock-antique phrase of mock-lament': as usual, languagehat has got it exactly right. But there is more to be said about the history of the phrase.

It comes from a once-famous poem by Thomas Moore which begins:

Twas ever thus: from childhood's hour
I've seen my fondest hopes decay.
I never loved a tree or flower
But was the first to fade away.
I never nursed a dear gazelle
To glad me with its soft black eye,
But when it came to know me well
And love me, it was sure to die!

(I'm quoting this from memory, so may not be 100% accurate.)

For some reason, this poem was irresistible to nineteenth-century parodists. (I think it has something to do with the reaction against the lachrymose, sorrows-of-young-Werther school of romantic sensibility.) Virtually every Victorian comic writer, from Lewis Carroll downwards, seems to have tried their hand at a parody of it. Any decent anthology of parodies will probably give you several examples. ('I never knew a piece of toast / Particularly long and wide, / But fell upon the sanded floor / And always on the buttered side' etc etc.)

As a result, 'Twas ever thus' entered the language as a comic way of saying 'things always go wrong for me'. (Comic, because absurdly over-the-top.) So, for example, if you're late for work, and running to catch a bus, and the bus pulls away just as you reach the bus-stop, the appropriate (British) reaction is not 'Fuck!' but (with a shrug of the shoulders and a look of humorous resignation) 'Twas ever thus'.