Please help me pick an appropriate set of speakers and a subwoofer.

July 16, 2006 8:58 PM

Please help me pick an appropriate set of speakers and a subwoofer.

My home theater is currently comprised of the following:

• (1) Sony KD-34XBR960
• (2) TiVo Series 2 (RCA)
• (1) XBox (Component)
• (1) PS2 (Component)
• (1) NGC (Composite)
• (1) Sony DVD (Composite)
• (2) Sennheiser RS85 headphones
• (1) Wooden stand

My overall goal is to build an entire system that suits my needs and lifestyle. As such, my speakers must meet a few ideals:

1. I'm not an audiophile. I can hear the difference between a $200 set of speakers, a $1,000 set of speakers and a $5,000+ set of speakers, but here's the rub: I am an apartment dweller for the forseeable future. The volume I listen to my system at must not disturb my neighbors. In other words, clarity at a low volume is of greater importance than wattage per channel.
2. I don't own DVD-A or SACD media. In fact, I hope to never own either.
3. I have no interest in THX certified anything.
4. I am a movie buff. My fiancee is a music buff.
5. I move every year or so. Wall mounted speakers are pretty much out of the question. Wireless speakers are an absolute no-no to my fiancee. Furthermore, I tend to rent small places (studios and lofts), so floor standing speakers are out of the questions. 500 sqare feet between two people is bad enough without six or eight speakers taking up floor space.
6. Looks are, in fact, important. Modern, sleek, and minimal are the best words to describe our tastes.

I'm considering either Yamaha's YSP-800, YSP-1000 (review), or Polk Audio's SoundBar (review). I'm leaning heavily toward the Yamaha system given that it delivers quality sound no matter the source. The Polk delivers something, according to reviews, between 180 and 270 degrees of sound. The benefit of the Polk system is that it is supposed to work no matter how your room is shaped or sized. However, having listened to it in two less than ideal set ups, I know it performs poorly in large rooms. Furthermore, the reviews I have read of the SoundBar have all panned how music sounds on it. Lastly, the looks of the Yamaha products are more up our alley. I'm open to other solutions: single speaker, multiple speaker, or something else. What I don't know a thing about is subwoofers. I'd like to move the LFE to something dedicated to the task, but the it's important that whatever I choose produces good sound at low volumes.

I'd particularly appreciate help quantifying the difference between the YSP-800 and the YSP-1000 and advice on a specific subwoofer to match the system. Thanks for any advice, thoughts, or comments you might have.

Please note that this is the first of what will be several questions about my home theater planning. Future questions will refer back to this question for background information, so please forgive the length.

posted by sequential to home & garden (14 comments total)

I know nothing about these single-box solutions. But from reading the links:

Is there a reason you've ruled out the similar offerings from DefTech, Boston Acoustics, and Mirage?

Subs don't normally need to be timbre-matched or anything like that. Just get one that you like. Hsu gets pretty consistent good reviews but I've not heard one. If your SO is a music buff and you don't need to rattle the framing, I'd go for speed and accuracy over sheer bottom end (nudge nudge).

The only thing I'd be careful about is to avoid ones that have to be automatic. Most subs have a setting where they turn themselves on when they detect sound going to them; I gather that in some this is the only way they operate. If you're listening at low volumes, that might not be enough to trip the detector dingus so you're subless just when you want it the most. Anyhow, for quiet listening you want a sub that can be set to always-on.

Lookswise, some companies (SVS? Hsu?) make cylindrical subwoofers; I dunno if you'd prefer one of those or a box type. Or you could build your own Death Star subwoofer.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:39 PM on July 16, 2006

Is there a reason you've ruled out the similar offerings from DefTech, Boston Acoustics, and Mirage?

The primary reason I've asked this question is my limited knowledge and familiarity with these systems. I've gravitated toward the Yamaha and Polk because I've been able to see and hear them in local stores. Above that, the Yamaha YSP-1 appears to be best of class. If you, or anyone else can recommend another one, I'm happy to consider all of my options. I'm not purchasing anything until I'm satisfied I've done my homework. It took me two years to buy the TV, but I hope to buy the speakers and other components in the next few months.

Thanks for the advice on the subwoofers. I think you've given me a good baseline for which to start my research from.
posted by sequential at 9:48 PM on July 16, 2006

You don't mention budget range, but it sounds like you're willing to spend a couple grand on this thing.

First, your requirements are kind of contradictory: you can't have wall mounts, and you don't want floorstanders, so where the heck are you gonna put speakers? You're limiting yourself to exactly the solutions you've already cited, and I don't think any single-speaker solution like that is going to do as good a job as individual speakers. It's just NOT going to happen, because rooms are complex beasts. Fixing a room for REGULAR sound reproduction is hard... this sound-bouncing stuff is gonna be ten times harder to get right, and it'll never sound as good as real speakers.

You have a good chance of a total mess where nothing sounds really right. At the very least, MAKE SURE you have an ironclad money-back guarantee.

Good sound from small speakers is very hard to do. They do fine for treble, but midbass and bass are very difficult.... most companies go to a 'subwoofer' that's really just a woofer, and reproducing frequencies that are still directional.

Hsu Research has a clever solution, their Ventriloquist VT-12s. They use a bigger center speakers and tiny sats... and reroute the midbass that should be in the sats to the center. Normally, midbass is directional, but this particular method doesn't seem to be that noticeable. It gives you the fuller sound reproduction of a larger system, with sats that are small enough to hang from a nail... few apartments refuse to allow you to drive any nails at all. Team that up with one of their smaller subs and a decent receiver and I'd think you'd be very happy. It'll work in essentially any room, sounds reasonably good, and isn't very expensive. Pair it with one of their middle subwoofers and you'd have a dynamite little system for well under $1k, including receiver. And it creates sound the simple way... by actually having speakers all around you. It won't require endless tuning on your part to try to approximate real speakers.

The other major approach you could take is to simply buy two good floorstanders. They're not gonna take up much space if you put them next to your TV. This would be the best solution for music, and generally a good stereo pair does a very good job on movies as well. The sound behind your head is nice, but it's usually mixed pretty low and you don't often notice it.

If you're buying primarily for movies, I'd suggest the VT-12. If it's primarily for music, I'd point you toward any good pair of floorstanders. The Yamaha thing is a clever solution, but it looks immensely finicky to get right. In a few years when they can run auto-dsp correction with microphones, it might work okay.... if they can actually measure your room and build a DSP filter to match. This manual adjustment of reflection points is, in my opinion, rather Mickey Mouse.
posted by Malor at 10:37 PM on July 16, 2006

Unnerstan, this is based on nothing but general manufacturer reputations, but you might want to see if there are DefTech/BA/Mirage/etc dealers near you where you could see theirs.

Depends a lot on the line, but makers like these, which tend to cater to higher-end customers, often have "lower level" products that are very good and very competitive on price and end up being a better value than Polk/Yamaha/Infinity/etc. I haven't the faintest idea if that's the case with these Magic Bar Of Speakers systems.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:43 PM on July 16, 2006

You don't mention budget range, but it sounds like you're willing to spend a couple grand on this thing.

Thanks for pointing this out. Price isn't an issue for the right product, but I'm trying not to overbuy. I can get exactly what I want from speakers if I buy everything THX Select certified - but I don't need that much. I'm trying to maximize the value of the system without sacrificing much quality until I buy a house.

First, your requirements are kind of contradictory: you can't have wall mounts, and you don't want floorstanders, so where the heck are you gonna put speakers?

One of the questions I will be asking in the future is in regards to custom cabinets. To answer you question more directly: I intend to build or have built a cabinet to hold just about everything, possibly save the sub.

I don't think any single-speaker solution like that is going to do as good a job as individual speakers.

We're on the same page: neither do I!

Team that up with one of their smaller subs and a decent receiver and I'd think you'd be very happy.

The single speaker solutions are not perfect. Anyone who will reply to this question will know that. The one thing the single speaker solution has that most others don't? High fiancee approval. She detests wires and clutter. Another reason for a custom cabinet.

The Yamaha thing is a clever solution, but it looks immensely finicky to get right. In a few years when they can run auto-dsp correction with microphones, it might work okay....

My understanding was that the YSP-800 and the YSP-1000 added this with a feature called IntelliBeam.

This manual adjustment of reflection points is, in my opinion, rather Mickey Mouse.

You're good. Good enough that I'm going to find a way to listen to the Hsu Research stuff before I buy a damned thing.

I heard a YSP-1 that was manually set up in a sound room at Tweeter. My understanding was that a Yamaha rep actually taught a class that morning and adjusted the system within reasonable range. Get yourself to a Tweeter and have a listen. You'll swear there are other speakers on in the room. The downside to the system is that when you get out of the right listening range, which is actually perceived to be larger than a multispeaker set up, the sound is terrible enough that you can hear the timing difference quite clearly. I don't feel comfortable that I could get the YSP-1 to work, but IntelliBeam seems to get the system close enough that I could probably tweak it to find my sweet spot.
posted by sequential at 11:47 PM on July 16, 2006

if there are DefTech/BA/Mirage/etc dealers near you where you could see theirs.

If not, we'll happily travel a few hours by car to hear them. I make a two hour trip to Boston weekly, so I have a good chance of finding something there. I know BA is there, at the very least.

makers like these, which tend to cater to higher-end customers, often have "lower level" products that are very good and very competitive on price and end up being a better value than Polk/Yamaha/Infinity/etc.

And that's a lot of what I hoped to learn from asking these questions: what are my options?

I haven't the faintest idea if that's the case with these Magic Bar Of Speakers systems.

That made me laugh heartily. Give the YSP-1 a listen for kicks some day, it will be worth the entertainment value and the excuse to visit your local A/V store.
posted by sequential at 11:53 PM on July 16, 2006

Why is your fiancee opposed to wireless speakers?
posted by concrete at 12:31 AM on July 17, 2006

I haven't heard anyone mention this yet, so I will. Have you considered powered reference monitors and subs run into a mixer?
posted by mrmojoflying at 5:14 AM on July 17, 2006

Why is your fiancee opposed to wireless speakers?

The primary reason is that we haven't heard a pair that we've liked the sound of. The wireless RS85 headphones we use work well, but the sound quality isn't what we'd accept from a pair of speakers. The compressed signal doesn't sound perfect, even with a strong signal. None of the speakers we've had the opportunity to hear have been even close to the quality of the headphones we use. If you could make a recommendation for good quality RF speakers, we'd be more than happy to give them a listen.

Have you considered powered reference monitors and subs run into a mixer?

I'm not exactly sure what this accomplishes. Could you elaborate?
posted by sequential at 7:02 AM on July 17, 2006

I'm not exactly sure what this accomplishes. Could you elaborate?

Flexibility, durability, and cost. If you are looking for straight sound quality and not features, you can get excellent 150w powered monitors (mind you not Genelecs or Mackies) for under $300 each. You can mix and match components as you need or see fit. I personally run two 100w (70w/30w) passive monitors, 200w reference amp, and a 200w reference sub (wish I had two) into a little 14 channel mixer, with TV, DVD, etc. connected into that.

The SPL for my setup is only about 96dB at unity (I can go louder but lose quality), but as far as sound quality, I can pick up the mastering errors in the recordings of live performances (say like Pink Floyd or Jeff Buckley). Not that 96 dB isn't enough to severely offend the neighbors if you wanted. Plus, as far as loose gear and wires, you can easily modify an inexpensive entertainment center to make everything nice and pretty. All told (mixer, amp, line conditioner (a must), two monitors, sub, cables) I think I have maybe $1100 in my setup.

Mind you, all this goes out the window if you want a 5.1 or DDS setup. Then you should just go for the package.
posted by mrmojoflying at 8:14 AM on July 17, 2006

As ROU_Xenophone mentioned, Mirage has their version of the integrated speaker, UNI-Theater. Home Theater magazine has a positive review though I often get the feeling they're shills for the manufacturers. Price is an even $1k.

Personally I think you'd be better off with a pair of small satellite speakers on thin stands and a center channel on the TV (+sub). When you eventually move to a house, switch the satellites to rear speaker duty and get the floorstanding speakers you've always wanted.
posted by junesix at 11:02 AM on July 17, 2006

Mind you, all this goes out the window if you want a 5.1 or DDS setup. Then you should just go for the package.

I'm a movie buff. I like my 5.1. I'm not sold on 6.1 or 7.1, though I do like the multiroom uses I've seen in many mid-range receivers. For music, I don't find that this matters nearly as much, so the setup you mention would work great for my fiancee and less well for me.

Mirage has their version of the integrated speaker

Lots of higher end companies have their own versions of a left, center, right channel speaker system in one box. For the most part, they are little more than good speakers in a single housing and as such, do not meet my needs.

The question is: is surround sound important? Surprisingly, my fiancee agrees with me; the emersive quality of a good surround sound system is something high on her list. Small satellites would do the trick, but if I lay a wire even slightly in sight, she'd be terribly unhappy. Since we're highly mobile and in apartments, hiding wires over wood floors or in walls that didn't plan on being snaked for audio wires prohibits this solution. We are replacing a $500 set of speakers for this very reason.

Thanks for all of your excellent ideas and suggestions. We're going to visit some dealers in the near future and make our final decision and you have given us plenty of options to consider along with the systems I was already familiar with.
posted by sequential at 3:20 PM on July 17, 2006

To your point about subwoofers, if I was your neighbor, I'm not sure how I'd feel if you got a subwoofer. Since you mention volume levels being of concern, I'd reconsider the subwoofer but you may have an apartment that would allow it.
posted by loc-dogg at 6:42 PM on July 19, 2006

Good point, loc-dogg. I am not looking to blow myself out of the water with a sub, just off load the heavy work of moving the air to a speaker that is designed to handle it. Unless the apartment we move to next is more isolated, we'll never have the volume high enough for our neighbors to hear us.

I understand this limits the usefulness of a sub, but we can do things like lift it off the floor and place it closer to the place we'll be listening from. All is not lost, but it's pretty clear that we have to make some compromises.

If you have any input on how to achieve good bass without angering neighbors, I'd appreciate any tips.
posted by sequential at 7:37 AM on July 20, 2006