Software Bundling (tied selling) in Canadian Stores

June 26, 2006 7:05 AM

I know I can build computers myself. But I want to buy a notebook. And I want it already fully built, with a nice in-store warranty. However, I want NO SOFTWARE along with it. Absolutely none. Am I entitled to that?

Should I, as a consumer, be able to walk in a wholesale store, ask for a computer without software, and if the salesclerk does not understand, call for a manager? The reasons I want to deal with wholesale stores are:
* They have insane wholesale prices
* Good warranties, usually
* The convenience of walking in, looking at each available model, seeing them “live”
* Buy machines that would otherwise be hard to find (dell.ca bundles software beyond all recognition, hpshopping.ca is an unusable piece of website junk, and yes, I did email the webmasters, etc)
* You can actually settle issues while in the store, not with some useless hotline
* What you see is what you get, now, without shipping fees and delays

Here is the most I could find with my clunky googling skills about tied selling in http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/internet/index.cfm?itemID=1314&lg=e
"tied selling" «ventes liées»
"tied selling" means
(a) any practice whereby a supplier of a product, as a condition of supplying the product (the "tying" product) to a customer, requires that customer to
(i) acquire any other product from the supplier or the supplier's nominee, or
(ii) refrain from using or distributing, in conjunction with the tying product, another product that is not of a brand or manufacture designated by the supplier or the nominee, and
(b) any practice whereby a supplier of a product induces a customer to meet a condition set out in subparagraph (a)(i) or (ii) by offering to supply the tying product to the customer on more favourable terms or conditions if the customer agrees to meet the condition set out in either of those subparagraphs.

Now, I am not really legalese-savy. I seek your help to understand. The current situation here is that you can get you friendly local computer shop (where you build your computers yourself) to not bundle anything with the computer, but you can't (as far as I recall) do that with a big wholesale store such as Futureshop, Staples, Costco, etc.

My question is, are those companies legally correct? For example, if I take the overused “windows refund” argument, looking at the license (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx), it says “IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.”

Now, this raises some questions:
* Does that mean I MUST have purchased the computer with the software, exit the store, come back 2 minutes later and say I refuse? Isn't that tied selling, and, after all, illegal?
* I feel this “IF APPLICABLE” end of line must be the mechanism to fsck end users. Am I wrong?
* Does this only apply to products that have such a license, or does the law make it so that it applies to any software, regardless of the license? That is what I assume so far.

If you have read all the way through here already, you might have guessed that I am a libre software advocate, and refuse the thought of being forced into keeping a bunch of software CDs, manuals, licenses with the purchase of a notebook computer. I do not need them. I am not money hungry, but I would really like to find out if there is any hope for Canada not fucking over the consumers with this kind of commercial practices.

I am expecting the store owners to give me crap replies such as “the software is free, it's a gift” or that there is a “reseller agreement” with $name_of_a_company_here that prevents them from selling $name_of_brand without $software. But aren't my consumer rights supposed to surpass just that? I know I am not in the 99% consumer mass, but I should have the right to refuse software to be included right?

And... I expect to get comments such as “stfu, who are you to tell the companies how to run their business?” I can understand that point, but that's most likely why I am asking MeFi: my choices as a consumer are dramatically limited, and I want to know if I can do something about that. It sucks being forced into buying always from the same 2 businesses instead of being able to walk in any store and ask for something I am willing to buy. I'm perfectly willing to demonstrate how I would NOT use the software and format the computer directly in the store with witnesses, but I doubt they would accept.

posted by a007r to law & government (32 comments total)

Good luck dealing with any retailer on this issue. It is not their choice to include preinstalled software. Try the manufacturer's Web site/ store and try to buy an un bundled system.

As far as 'tied selling', well I think the manufacturer can simply say the product wouldn't work (be complete) without software.

This doesn't answer your question, but If I'm not mistaken wasn't Microsoft taken to court on the practice of forcing computer manufacturers to pay for (not necessarily install) a copy of Windows for each machine they produce? And wasn't there some kind of agreement?
posted by Gungho at 7:19 AM on June 26, 2006

Couldn't you just buy a linux notebook, and nuke the linux? Looks like HP would be happy to sell you one.
posted by pompomtom at 7:22 AM on June 26, 2006

agree with gungho - good luck getting anyone in the store to understand what you want. personally, I was always under the impression that you're not buying just the hardware and hey have some software too, you're buying a system: hardware, software, support, &c. I think you should be able to buy just a bare computer from the major manufacturers, but, for whatever reason, you're unable to in most cases.
posted by mrg at 7:27 AM on June 26, 2006

Bill Gates has devoted several centuries worth of legal billing to this question. Your welcome to go up against 300 attorney-centuries worth of time, probably billed out at about $500 per hour on average. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying that they've moved millions of units in Canada despite the law which when read seems to prohibit tie-ins like that. U.S. law is very similar, yet equally impotent in the face of the sudden decision of the Bush administration to settle the antitrust suit against Microsoft for next to nothing.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:29 AM on June 26, 2006

It is unfortunate that you can't order or buy computers without software... but this is the way the industry is setup for end users. mrg is right about the whole "system" marketing.

Most people - very nearly 100% - want Windows preinstalled on their computers... furthermore selling computers without software would probably encourage piracy of operating systems... so... there is very little incentive for manufacturers to ship systems without bundled software.

If your reasoning for wanting a laptop without software is to save money - then you should try eBay. You can probably find the model you want - either new or slightly used - and the savings would more than make up for the cost of the Windows XP or whatever...
posted by wfrgms at 7:36 AM on June 26, 2006

Maybe you have a shot, that I can't say. However, I'm pretty much entirely sure that you're not going to do this by bugging the people who work at a wholesale store.

Why? Because all of the software agreements and bundling is done by the manufacturer beforehand. Futureshop doesn't put any software on the computers or have any agreements with anyone, hp does. Futureshop makes their 25% markup or whatever, and that's all. They don't want to be involved in this issue, and I'd guess the only way you could get them involved would be to sue them or something.

Try the manufacturers, you may get them to do something for you - pompomtom's idea is good. Good luck, but what you're looking for here is cooperation, not threatening them with the law - I have read the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and laptops aren't even in there at all, much less any mention of bundled software.
posted by pinespree at 7:37 AM on June 26, 2006

Hi, just to make some aspects clearer... I know that there are companies specializing in linux notebooks, but
* I'd really want to get a "generic brand" (such as HP) one
* my goal is to be able to do that without an online retailer

I understand to a certain extent that it is not necessarily the reseller's choice, but, legalese-wise, it's still the reseller's fault isn't it?

As for the hardware not "working [being complete] without software", I believe that I can prove it works by powering up the computer. If there is no OS, it will output something to the screen. That works good enough for me no? :)

As for the Microsoft Antitrust cases, I don't know. This article might prove useful, but I believe the target here is not Microsoft. The target is the reseller, because
a) the license from Microsoft (just for the example) specifically says I can get refunded
b) resellers don't just bundle microsoft software, but also antivirii, photo and multimedia software, and a productivity suite of some kind.

I don't think I am planning to sue their pants off or anything like that. I just want to walk in the store and see what would happen.
posted by a007r at 7:46 AM on June 26, 2006

Let me back off from my charter snark a bit and be more helpful: the reason this isn't tied selling is that the manufacturers don't offer "hardware-only laptops" for sale. What dell sells is "systems" - laptops with software installed. That's what they offer to stores to sell, and that's all you can buy. Dell isn't obligated to sell you a laptop without software any more than GM is obligated to sell you a car without seats if that's what you wanted. And futureshop isn't obligated to sell you products that no one makes (laptops without software). So unfortunately, unless you can find a manufacturer that wants to cooperate with you, you can't get what you want.

However, as a friend to free software and opponent of being fucked over, let me suggest an elegant solution to you: don't buy a laptop. The manufacturers have proven that they don't care about you or your needs, the retailers only care about the bottom line, why should you support them? Deal with the inconvenience and revel in the freedom!

btw, I don't have a laptop - FREEDOM!
(on preview, a car without seats starts up too)
posted by pinespree at 7:52 AM on June 26, 2006

One thing that's worth pointing out is that with notebooks in particular, it's a very good idea to get the preinstalled software.

Why? Because laptops are notoriously nonstandard in how they do things, and manufacturers aren't always all that great about providing drivers on their websites. Generally, even if the installed Windows is loaded down with crap, they'll provide some kind of a driver disk with the system, and that can be worth its weight in gold.

If it's because you don't want to pay for Windows when you're not going to use it, then as pompomtom points out, you can get Linux notebooks.... you do still pay something for the software in that case, as they had to tune the distro to that hardware, but it's usually pretty minimal. (probably no more than $25 of the total price.) If you have Walmart in your area, you may be able to order a Linux notebook, possibly even without any OS at all, from them. They were talking about doing this not too long ago.

If your desire for a naked notebook is really that you just want to pirate Windows, then shame on you. Whether or not you like Microsoft, you don't have the right to use their software without paying for it. In a world with perfectly good free alternatives, I don't think you can make a reasonable argument for copying their software.

Apple makes pretty good notebooks too... you are, of course, paying for OS X, but they're still priced pretty well compared to similar notebooks from other manufacturers. And they come with no spy/crapware at all... everything on the system is for your benefit, not Apple's.
posted by Malor at 7:57 AM on June 26, 2006

(well, except possibly iTunes, but you can opt out of the music store with a few clicks.)
posted by Malor at 7:58 AM on June 26, 2006

You said I don't think I am planning to sue their pants off or anything like that. I just want to walk in the store and see what would happen.

What would happen is you'd tick off a bunch of wage slaves who have no control over what comes on the computers, much like the Freedom Warriors who thought they were making a Great Stand on Behalf of All Mankind by throwing a fit about putting their Social Security number on a video rental application.

Yes, sir, I know by law you don't have to give it to me. No, sir, I really don't care if you go to the Competitor. You see, sir, I make $6.50 an hour and I have no control over what corporate prints on the applications, nor do I have control over my manager, who will deny your application if you don't fill it out completely.

If you want Costco to sell you an unbundled computer, take it up with the CEO of Costco or the comptuer manufacturer. They're the ones in charge of what goes on the machines and what machines in which configurations they choose to offer in store. Please, please, please, leave the dork in the crew shirt and nametag alone.
posted by headspace at 7:59 AM on June 26, 2006

I don't understand how you're getting screwed over by buying at Costco though. You object strongly to it, and I totally agree that it's a pain in the ass, but at the end of the day, no one is getting screwed. You are not "forced into keeping" - as you say - anything.

You buy the machine with all it's bundled crap, you format the drive, throw out or otherwise destroy all of the CDs, manuals, license numbers and the like and install your own OS on their - whether it be a nice free linux distro or your own purchased copy (non-branded) of XP Pro or whatever else you want. You now have no relationship or obligation to any of the software that was bundled or to the companies that made the titles, you have your less expensive computer, and you have your freedom.

You seem to be labouring under the assumption that you are paying for the crap that you don't like, and that therefore if you take it out, it should cost even less (or at least not more). That's where you're wrong in this. I would get over it.

Those lame-o bundled software versions included are by the very people who are subsidizing the computer so that you can purchase it at such a discount in the first place. I would simply smile at the apparent lameness of the marketers who devised such a scheme that clearly won't work on you, thank them for meaninglessly subsidizing your purchase, and get rid of all the junk.
posted by mikel at 8:00 AM on June 26, 2006

a007r: I know I can build computers myself. But I want to buy a notebook.

You do know that you can also build your own laptop?
posted by JJ86 at 8:05 AM on June 26, 2006

Don't be surprised if, when you do succeed in convincing someone to sell you a laptop without bundled software, that the price is identical to that of the same laptop with bundled software.
posted by mendel at 8:09 AM on June 26, 2006

No, Mendel, it will and should cost more. The companies bundling the software are paying for the right to have it on the computers, and this subsidizes the cost to the manufacturer and hence the price to the consumer.
posted by mikel at 8:18 AM on June 26, 2006

my choices as a consumer are dramatically limited, and I want to know if I can do something about that.

it seems that you are misunderstanding the relationship between consumer and producer. I am a weird sized person and I can't buy clothes that fit really well. I could pay a tailor to customize some for me [the same way you could get a tech geek person to "debundle" a machine and sell it to you] but off the rack clothes don't fit. The marketplace isn't supposed to sell everyone everything that they want, it's supposed to sell most people most of the stuff that they want and adapt if people's tastes change. You can get custom work to do what you want. This may keep the larger market from adapting to you.

The way to get to be able to buy laptops with NO software is to convince someone that there is a market for it, meaning that you and some of your friends need to show that you would buy them. Since there is already a way to get the end result that you want [buy a cheap laptop and wipe it yourself, send all licenses back to their creators with "STFU" scrawled all over them in sharpie markers] it's harder to make an argument that you are being denied anything by the marketplace not adapting to you.
posted by jessamyn at 8:18 AM on June 26, 2006

jessamyn, one problem with that argument is that, in many cases, users are stuck with the crapware, like it or not.

Microsoft has changed the rules so that you have to install with the same kind of XP that your manufacturer provided you with. In effect, for most people, that means they'd have to buy an entire separate copy of XP in order to wipe the machine and have a clean install.... and sometimes they can't even get drivers for their hardware.

As a side effect of Microsoft making licensing more difficult, the "sharpie STFU" option is no longer free... and in fact, can be quite expensive. ($199 for a retail copy of XP... OEM copies are about $150, but are tied forever to a specific motherboard.)
posted by Malor at 8:39 AM on June 26, 2006

I don't think you're going to have any success. It seems analogous to me to wanting to buy the Frosted Flakes single-serving boxes only from an eight-pack that includes Sugar Pops and Lucky Charms.

Or, if that one doesn't work for you, a car dealer is allowed to sell a car with a third-party stereo and require that it be purchased as one unit, and he doesn't have to offer you a car without a stereo.
posted by solid-one-love at 8:43 AM on June 26, 2006

Silly Dog Forums

This may or may not be relevant to your quest, but a retailer in New Zealand is offering laptops sans Windows OS (via link above).
posted by mrmojoflying at 9:09 AM on June 26, 2006

Your local Costco is not your local Burger King: they do not promise that you can "have it your way." Even the Almighty #1 can't always find what he needs. You want the customization and high level of service available only from a small specialty boutique, at the low prices and convenient location of a big-box retailer. I want a pony and world peace. Both of us are in for deep disappointment.
posted by junkbox at 9:11 AM on June 26, 2006

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting what you want, and I admire your passion for it. BUT, let me reiterate what headspace said. Please, please, please, leave the dork in the crew shirt and nametag alone.

If you go into a wholesale or retail place with this passionate lust for something you believe they SHOULD provide you with, when in reality they can't (and even the manager is not going to be able to help you, because she is not a lawyer) - you're going to end up pissed off, and so will the staff. Though they may try their hardest to please you and calmly explain why this can't be done, they will still end up telling stories about you to the co-workers who weren't there to see it.

There are many examples of people buying things they sort of want, in order to turn it into something they do want. Clothes, cars, MIT students who buy the modern-day equivalent of Teddy Ruxpin just so they can salvage parts for their latest experiment... Bite the bullet, buy a laptop you would like, and wipe the hard drive. Mod to your heart's content. (Also - be aware that the great warranty you're after will probably be voided by doing that. Techs are certified to work on products that conform to their company's specifications.)
posted by ArsncHeart at 9:32 AM on June 26, 2006

Like many others, after receiving my notebook I "restored" it from the "rescue" discs and installed only the OS and the essential driver software that I felt I needed. Like you I would be happier to be able to buy only as much or as little software as I wanted, but I accepted this compromise in order to obtain a nicely designed laptop that would otherwise meet my needs. Someday I hope laptop components will become sufficiently cheap and standardized that it will be cost-effective to build my own as I have my last few desktops. Until then it's probably cheaper and easier to just bite the bullet, take the software we don't want with our new laptops, wipe it clean, and start fresh.
posted by Songdog at 9:40 AM on June 26, 2006

pinespree: However, as a friend to free software and opponent of being fucked over, let me suggest an elegant solution to you: don't buy a laptop. The manufacturers have proven that they don't care about you or your needs, the retailers only care about the bottom line, why should you support them? Deal with the inconvenience and revel in the freedom!

>> I understand what you mean, but my goal is absolutely not getting a dirty buck. My goal is sending a clear message to the industry that there ARE people (a demand) for "pure" hardware in the wholesale.

Malor:with notebooks in particular, it's a very good idea to get the preinstalled software. Why? Because laptops are notoriously nonstandard in how they do things, and manufacturers aren't always all that great about providing drivers on their websites.[...] you can get Linux notebooks...

>>> I appreciate your concern, but drivers are not a problem for me. And I don't use windows. Ever. And on every laptop I used so far, Ubuntu Linux recognized 100% of the hardware out of the box, no configuration needed. I also understand that it might not be the case with a brand new off-the-shelf laptop, but those issues are mine to fix. In the Linux world, sadly, most hardware manufacturers don't even care about drivers anyway. That's bound to change, but we are still in a transitional phase. About getting Linux notebooks, I know this sounds like "I'm a stupid rat who doesn't want to spend a dime", but I actually use bleeding edge development versions (versions that have NOT been released yet, and receive about 200 updates daily).

Malor:If your desire for a naked notebook is really that you just want to pirate Windows, then shame on you.

>>> I don't like Microsoft, I don't like Apple much more, and I certainly do not use any of their software. I have been fully windows-free for the last two years. Furthermore, as my libre software evangelist terror battle continues, I stopped doing tech support for proprietary software ;)

headspace: What would happen is you'd tick off a bunch of wage slaves who have no control over what comes on the computers

>>> Yeah, I thought about that, and actually wondered if the managers would have the power over that. I am aware that a poor clerk dude who works to pay his gas is not someone who will have the power to do anything, even if the will is there or even if that guy is a FOSS advocate himself. And I'm aware (I actually debated about this with friends earlier on) that the guy generally won't care, I suggested that this was due to wholesale stores being bigger, having a faster employee rotation rate, and, in the end, the employee being alienated from the company, in contrast with a "small shop" where the employee usually would have a feeling of "relationship" with the small business, and the success of the company, whether the guy in the megacorporation will not give a damn if he makes the company loose some profits.

JJ86: You do know that you can also build your own laptop?

>>> Yes, but I don't have the skill for that... Well I will google a bit for that, but really, I doubt it. I have trouble taking of apart a built laptop myself...

mendel: Don't be surprised if, when you do succeed in convincing someone to sell you a laptop without bundled software, that the price is identical to that of the same laptop with bundled software.

>>> That would be fine with me. I would not expect making money (if so, what, 20$? that's meaningless, you can't start a business with that can you? ;-), this is purely for "moral" purposes. I hate the feeling of being fucked over for being lazy, I don't know how to explain it.

mikel: it will and should cost more. The companies bundling the software are paying for the right to have it on the computers, and this subsidizes the cost to the manufacturer and hence the price to the consumer

>>> Ooh, I did not think about that. Indeed, it "makes sense" (management-thinking, NOT consumer thinking). It's a sponsoring thing then. But that makes me think that computer hardware is "adware", which makes me think it's somewhat stupid since it is on mostly all computers regardless of the price in the same company/product line. Interesting point.

jessamyn: The way to get to be able to buy laptops with NO software is to convince someone that there is a market for it, meaning that you and some of your friends need to show that you would buy them

>>> Yeah, sadly it is a chicken and egg situation however. We would need to be like, one or two million geeks in the streets with pairs of pliers and blowtorches before the "market" would notice anything.

ArsnHeart: Bite the bullet, buy a laptop you would like, and wipe the hard drive. Mod to your heart's content. (Also - be aware that the great warranty you're after will probably be voided by doing that. Techs are certified to work on products that conform to their company's specifications.)

>>> That's the reason of my post, I wish to NOT simply get bondaged and raped in the dark with licenses from outer space. But please clarify: the warranty would be avoided by doing what? Certainly not changing the software, I do hope. As the only reasons I would be calling tech support would be a dead LCD screen or something like that, the software problems are my problems, not the tech support's one; hardware, however, is their problem. Furthermore, wholesale retailers have a frenzy to sell you "extended warranty" contracts (not sure how it is called), which, in the case of futureshop, allow you to return the laptop for servicing for litteraly ANY reason. Yes, you could piss in the ExpressCard slot and take a dump in the optical drive, sent it back, have it repaired or replaced at no additional costs. I'm not sure if that warranty covers software issues, but again, I don't care about that aspect ;)

Whew. Long comment. Hopefully my browser did not crash because of an EnhancedSearchToolCoolMediaPlayerBar ;)
posted by a007r at 10:55 AM on June 26, 2006

Last reply paragraph:
rename "s/be avoided/be voided/" * -v

Sorry for the typo.
posted by a007r at 11:00 AM on June 26, 2006

I don't think you get it though.

You're not in bondage to anyone, nor are you being raped by anyone. Insist all that you like that you are, but that does not make it true.

You have no obligation to any software developer just by virtue of buying such a computer although you continually insist that you are and that this is dangerous to you. Furthermore, if you get into such a relationship due to starting up the computer and poking around for a while just to see what's there, there is a simple remedy - erase the files from your computer and destroy any media that you received the program upon. Done. No more bondage.

The warranty part is interesting to the extent that to reduce support costs for everyone (but mostly for themselves), a company could insist that it judge the existence of a defect under 'normal' condition. Hardware may be their problem, as you suggest, but verifying that there is in fact a defect is also their problem, and I would highly doubt that they would agree to that under every possible configuration.
posted by mikel at 11:42 AM on June 26, 2006

I'm going to agree with the common theme here...

A) You won't find a naked laptop in any non mom-n-pop Brick-n-Mortar store (maybe Fry's, but that's a guess, and only because of their target market)

B) OEM windows costs the OEM $30-100, depending on the volume and version. Companies like Google, Norton, Etc.. all pay an amount per computer that their software is installed on. I'm guessing that there's even a commission for companies like Norton if they end up subscribing to the software. In the end, the company will probably end up getting more for "software positioning" than on Windows itself. If you want a naked laptop, you'll probably end up spending more because there won't be any subsidizing.

C) Most of Tech support relies on software being run on the computer, even if it's hardware specific. When my Video Card started acting crazy on my Dell, they made me boot to their diagnostic partition (even though the screen was messed up even in the BIOS)... If you have hardware problems, you may be forced to install windows to allow Tech Support to step through resolution. This doesn't void your warranty, but they won't do any warranty work on the system unless the software is confirmed in a working state. (Makes sense, even though it royally sucks)


You want to make a statement, but I think you're limiting yourself too much. For a long time, the easiest way to buy an Apple Computer was online, but now that the demand has grown, they're opening their own stores and have their own department in B-n-M stores... Buy online from a well-rated company that gives you everything you want... The more you buy, the sooner they'll be able to open their own stores, or be able to ship products to B-n-M stores.
posted by hatsix at 1:36 PM on June 26, 2006

I am an attorney who practices antitrust law, but this is not legal advice.

The answer to the core question here is no, you don't have any right to walk in and demand a computer with no software. Retailers and manufacturers are not obligated to offer such a machine.

There are online sources from which you can buy such a machine, but they will not be major brands, and they won't be in your local warehouse club store.
posted by raf at 5:12 PM on June 26, 2006

I did not notice before that you're in Canada. I don't know about Canadian law, but I suspect the answer is still no.
posted by raf at 5:15 PM on June 26, 2006

Thanks all for your insightful comments. I'm glad to have asked.
posted by a007r at 8:04 AM on June 27, 2006

Well, it's not a wholesale club, but it's a step above "build your own laptop": Pricewatch has a list of customizable laptops for sale without an operating system. You won't get much beyond a "Hey it turns on!" warranty for anything without a software bundle, and a little shop in CA may be hard to contact for support. A cursory survey shows that some places do offer a 1 year PARTS warranty on the barebones systems, though.

Interested in a branded model? Check out the "full retail package" to get a feel for the size/weight/etc in a local store. (Please please please check out the store feedback closely to avoid getting burned.)
posted by Gable Oak at 9:06 AM on June 27, 2006

I did not notice before that you're in Canada. I don't know about Canadian law, but I suspect the answer is still no.

The Competition Act would not, I think, support the OP on this issue. There is no requirement for a seller to customize an item for sale or break apart a package deal.
posted by solid-one-love at 9:32 AM on June 27, 2006

Oh, just to make it clearr: "tied selling" is intended, generally, to prevent a seller from advertising a car for $10 if you buy this broken bottle for $28,000, and to prevent Lexmark from requiring that only Lexmark inkjet cartridges can be used in their printers. It would not apply to a computer package because you are not buying a-computer-tied-with-an-OS; you are buying a package, sold as such.
posted by solid-one-love at 9:37 AM on June 27, 2006