I don't like who I've become...
June 9, 2006 6:49 PM Subscribe
I am a horribly controlling, manipulative, and selfish person...
and I want to change. I'm just not sure how. Many times I don't even realize that I'm being manipulative until the situation is over...and sometimes not even then.
I'm a control freak and it seems like I always have to "win", even when it's just something stupid. I tend to be combative over the littlest thing, even when the outcome doesn't matter or it's just a difference of opinion.
I've also realized that I put myself first in most situations, when I really should be thinking about others first...especially those I love.
I have a long family history of manipulative, controlling, selfish women and I don't want to be like them...but I see that happening. My SO deserves to be treated much better than I treat him much of the time.
So, here's the big question...how do you change stuff that is so ingrained in your being? I don't want to be like this, but I don't even know where to start to change.
The only thing I could come up with for an idea was to put post-it notes up all over with notes to myself like "Be Considerate", "Encourage Others", and "Appreciation". I know it's not much of a plan...which is why I'm asking for your advice. Any advice?
and I want to change. I'm just not sure how. Many times I don't even realize that I'm being manipulative until the situation is over...and sometimes not even then.
I'm a control freak and it seems like I always have to "win", even when it's just something stupid. I tend to be combative over the littlest thing, even when the outcome doesn't matter or it's just a difference of opinion.
I've also realized that I put myself first in most situations, when I really should be thinking about others first...especially those I love.
I have a long family history of manipulative, controlling, selfish women and I don't want to be like them...but I see that happening. My SO deserves to be treated much better than I treat him much of the time.
So, here's the big question...how do you change stuff that is so ingrained in your being? I don't want to be like this, but I don't even know where to start to change.
The only thing I could come up with for an idea was to put post-it notes up all over with notes to myself like "Be Considerate", "Encourage Others", and "Appreciation". I know it's not much of a plan...which is why I'm asking for your advice. Any advice?
sorry... should read "It won't teach you..."
posted by about_time at 6:58 PM on June 9, 2006
posted by about_time at 6:58 PM on June 9, 2006
being conscious of a bad tendency is half the battle. try to train yourself to listen to the jiminy cricket voice that's obviously there or else you wouldn't have posted this question.
posted by Hat Maui at 7:00 PM on June 9, 2006
posted by Hat Maui at 7:00 PM on June 9, 2006
Confess.
Are there a few trusted friends, along with your SO, you can tell what you've told us? Ask them to keep you accountable to being more considerate/encouraging/appreciative.
When you engage in manipulative behavior, they can gently remind you that you are being manipulative/controlling/whatever. The trick on your part is to stop and recognize what you are doing - and not get defensive and angry with your friends.
Good luck! :)
posted by clh at 7:07 PM on June 9, 2006
Are there a few trusted friends, along with your SO, you can tell what you've told us? Ask them to keep you accountable to being more considerate/encouraging/appreciative.
When you engage in manipulative behavior, they can gently remind you that you are being manipulative/controlling/whatever. The trick on your part is to stop and recognize what you are doing - and not get defensive and angry with your friends.
Good luck! :)
posted by clh at 7:07 PM on June 9, 2006
First of all, I want to say that I am proud of you. This must be really hard to admit. Your honesty and desire to change is commendable.
If you'd consider therapy, try looking for a good cognitive therapist. It helps you break bad thought and behavior patterns.
In the mean time, during breaks from your anger/manipulation/selfishness, do something nice for your friends and SO. Even if it's just getting them a card that says, "I know I'm mean to you sometimes, and I'm working on stopping that, but I hope you know that I love you." If I received a card like that, it would mean a lot to me.
posted by grumblebee at 7:16 PM on June 9, 2006
If you'd consider therapy, try looking for a good cognitive therapist. It helps you break bad thought and behavior patterns.
In the mean time, during breaks from your anger/manipulation/selfishness, do something nice for your friends and SO. Even if it's just getting them a card that says, "I know I'm mean to you sometimes, and I'm working on stopping that, but I hope you know that I love you." If I received a card like that, it would mean a lot to me.
posted by grumblebee at 7:16 PM on June 9, 2006
I would encourage your SO to be a bit more agressive in reminding you to lay off, if you think he(?) might. A little prodding goes a long way.
Swallow your pride conciously. Don't be passive-agressive, talk about it with the people around you who know you best. Keep at it, 'one day at a time'. Good luck!
posted by milinar at 7:18 PM on June 9, 2006
Swallow your pride conciously. Don't be passive-agressive, talk about it with the people around you who know you best. Keep at it, 'one day at a time'. Good luck!
posted by milinar at 7:18 PM on June 9, 2006
Have you thought about therapy?
posted by LittleMissCranky at 7:34 PM on June 9, 2006
posted by LittleMissCranky at 7:34 PM on June 9, 2006
It helps to try and figure out why it is that you are that way.
Things like this usually have pretty solid causes.
posted by blacklite at 8:36 PM on June 9, 2006
Things like this usually have pretty solid causes.
posted by blacklite at 8:36 PM on June 9, 2006
The easiest way is probably to be more aware about how things feel for other people. Try to put yourself in their situation.
You'll change your actions automatically as a result.
And cheer up: you're at least doing one thing right; wanting to change.
posted by jouke at 10:48 PM on June 9, 2006
You'll change your actions automatically as a result.
And cheer up: you're at least doing one thing right; wanting to change.
posted by jouke at 10:48 PM on June 9, 2006
I'm a control freak and it seems like I always have to "win", even when it's just something stupid. I tend to be combative over the littlest thing, even when the outcome doesn't matter or it's just a difference of opinion.
You can leverage your selfishness to curb this need to always "win." Consider how much hassle/ill will you can save yourself by not being combative. A "win" isn't much of one if it's Pyrrhic and that can't be in your selfish interests, can it?
posted by juv3nal at 11:18 PM on June 9, 2006
You can leverage your selfishness to curb this need to always "win." Consider how much hassle/ill will you can save yourself by not being combative. A "win" isn't much of one if it's Pyrrhic and that can't be in your selfish interests, can it?
posted by juv3nal at 11:18 PM on June 9, 2006
Meditation.
Some believe that the desire to control, to always "win," to never have mistakes pointed out stems from low self esteem. The thinking is: if I'm wrong about something, however trivial, it is proof that I am a worthless human being.
Learn to love yourself.
posted by overanxious ducksqueezer at 12:06 AM on June 10, 2006
Some believe that the desire to control, to always "win," to never have mistakes pointed out stems from low self esteem. The thinking is: if I'm wrong about something, however trivial, it is proof that I am a worthless human being.
Learn to love yourself.
posted by overanxious ducksqueezer at 12:06 AM on June 10, 2006
Many of these answers have a kind of "from the inside out" approach--stopping the behavior by removing the desire. Just thought I'd point out that there's an outside-in approach, too.
If you feel the desire to say/do something that you know is bad, muster all your willpower and stop yourself from saying it. Don't worry about the desire; let it keep burning, just make sure you don't open your mouth. With enough success stopping the behavior, the desire will eventually go away on its own.
(Or, as Kurt Vonnegut put it, "Pretend to be good always, and even God will be fooled.")
(BTW, I'm not disagreeing with any of the other answers. This way works best for me, but surely this is a very personal preference. Give 'em all a shot.)
posted by equalpants at 12:33 AM on June 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
If you feel the desire to say/do something that you know is bad, muster all your willpower and stop yourself from saying it. Don't worry about the desire; let it keep burning, just make sure you don't open your mouth. With enough success stopping the behavior, the desire will eventually go away on its own.
(Or, as Kurt Vonnegut put it, "Pretend to be good always, and even God will be fooled.")
(BTW, I'm not disagreeing with any of the other answers. This way works best for me, but surely this is a very personal preference. Give 'em all a shot.)
posted by equalpants at 12:33 AM on June 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
The way I did it was to realize this: allowing someone else to make a decision is as much of a choice as making the decision yourself.
posted by donpardo at 3:25 AM on June 10, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by donpardo at 3:25 AM on June 10, 2006 [2 favorites]
I second grumblebee's suggestion, cognitive therapy. Your feelings and actions spring from the way you think about things. A good cognitive therapist can help you change that, which makes everything much easier.
posted by futility closet at 4:54 AM on June 10, 2006
posted by futility closet at 4:54 AM on June 10, 2006
I have a really extreme suggestion, probably unrealistic, but maybe something you should keep in the back of your mind if all else fails:
Join a Selfless Army. In other words, spend a summer, a year, or six months as a volunteer for some organization like the Peace Corps. An organization that will force you to (a) work tirelessly for others and (b) do without all sorts of luxuries. I doubt it would work to do this for a week. You'd probably need to so it for several months, at least. Enough time for you to fall apart and come back together again as a new person. Enough time to form a lifestyle of giving and going without.
Doing this could turn your life upside-down: you might have to quit your job, leave home, etc. Which is why I said it's unrealistic. But if changing is important enough to you, you might have to do something extreme in the end.
posted by grumblebee at 6:00 AM on June 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
Join a Selfless Army. In other words, spend a summer, a year, or six months as a volunteer for some organization like the Peace Corps. An organization that will force you to (a) work tirelessly for others and (b) do without all sorts of luxuries. I doubt it would work to do this for a week. You'd probably need to so it for several months, at least. Enough time for you to fall apart and come back together again as a new person. Enough time to form a lifestyle of giving and going without.
Doing this could turn your life upside-down: you might have to quit your job, leave home, etc. Which is why I said it's unrealistic. But if changing is important enough to you, you might have to do something extreme in the end.
posted by grumblebee at 6:00 AM on June 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
Why not put the combativeness and control freakness to good use?
You could try finding activities that exhaust all your controlling energies, physically and mentally - take up some sport or exercise that releases the fighting spirit, and take up something to learn that requires a lot of concentration and organisation. Anything depending on your interests.
Maybe even on a professional level, you could be the type of person who's great at directing and teaching others, putting the controlling part to good use by tempering it with awareness so that it becomes helpful rather than manipulative.
I don't believe any character trait is totally bad in itself, it always has a flip side, and even the worst urges or inclinations can become productive if we find a useful outlet for them rather than trying to suppress them altogether. It can work with addiction, I don't see why it couldn't work for any other inclinations when you're already aware of them, which is a great start.
posted by funambulist at 6:20 AM on June 10, 2006
You could try finding activities that exhaust all your controlling energies, physically and mentally - take up some sport or exercise that releases the fighting spirit, and take up something to learn that requires a lot of concentration and organisation. Anything depending on your interests.
Maybe even on a professional level, you could be the type of person who's great at directing and teaching others, putting the controlling part to good use by tempering it with awareness so that it becomes helpful rather than manipulative.
I don't believe any character trait is totally bad in itself, it always has a flip side, and even the worst urges or inclinations can become productive if we find a useful outlet for them rather than trying to suppress them altogether. It can work with addiction, I don't see why it couldn't work for any other inclinations when you're already aware of them, which is a great start.
posted by funambulist at 6:20 AM on June 10, 2006
grumblebee, yours is very excellent advice that can be made less extreme. Mrs. Smith could opt to join any local service organization to serve those around her. I, despite being a relatively agnostic, have volunteered with the Salvation Army. You could explore opportunities with a local humane society, Habitat for Humanity...anything. Any degree of volunteerism you enter into Mrs. Smith will change your perspective and help you serve your community. You will become more a part of those around you, rather than removed in selfishness.
One warning though: volunteerism is contagious and addictive.
Good luck to you Mrs. Smith. I too am proud that you have recognized this fault and are prepared to work hard to correct it. That takes a lot of courage.
posted by verveonica at 6:23 AM on June 10, 2006
One warning though: volunteerism is contagious and addictive.
Good luck to you Mrs. Smith. I too am proud that you have recognized this fault and are prepared to work hard to correct it. That takes a lot of courage.
posted by verveonica at 6:23 AM on June 10, 2006
Best answer: "Let the Wookie win."
This simple line from Star Wars explains the benefits to you why being cooperative and accommodating, rather than competitive and controlling, is in your own best interest. Sure you can win the point, or control the situation. But at what expense? Getting your arms ripped off and handed back to you by a Wookie? Losing all your friends (or at least making them want to avoid you)?
"Let the Wookie win."
I use this line as a mantra of sorts (often more with my wife who has more of a problem with this sometimes as she naturally likes to be in control). When she's at loggerheads with someone who is plainly wrong, I just look at her and say,
"Let the Wookie win."
There is no disgrace in disengaging from a sitaution where there is no clear path to victory.
"Let the Wookie win."
posted by Doohickie at 8:52 AM on June 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
This simple line from Star Wars explains the benefits to you why being cooperative and accommodating, rather than competitive and controlling, is in your own best interest. Sure you can win the point, or control the situation. But at what expense? Getting your arms ripped off and handed back to you by a Wookie? Losing all your friends (or at least making them want to avoid you)?
"Let the Wookie win."
I use this line as a mantra of sorts (often more with my wife who has more of a problem with this sometimes as she naturally likes to be in control). When she's at loggerheads with someone who is plainly wrong, I just look at her and say,
"Let the Wookie win."
There is no disgrace in disengaging from a sitaution where there is no clear path to victory.
"Let the Wookie win."
posted by Doohickie at 8:52 AM on June 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
If I may make up a term, self-programming.
Have you ever noticed that humans tend to be feedback loops for themselves? If you read more Star Wars books you think more about Star Wars? (Let the Wookie Win indeed!) If you read the Bible every day you think about God every day?
There used to be a company called Sucess Motivation Cassettes that sold (you guessed it!) motivational tapes. You were supposed to listen to a one hour tape once every day for a week to "internalize" it. Same principle. Repeat something enough and it becomes a part of you.
Find something good to internalize. The choice is yours. The Gospels. Your favorite Sutra. Andrew Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Whatever it is, it should encourage you to be a better person.
posted by ilsa at 11:08 AM on June 10, 2006
Have you ever noticed that humans tend to be feedback loops for themselves? If you read more Star Wars books you think more about Star Wars? (Let the Wookie Win indeed!) If you read the Bible every day you think about God every day?
There used to be a company called Sucess Motivation Cassettes that sold (you guessed it!) motivational tapes. You were supposed to listen to a one hour tape once every day for a week to "internalize" it. Same principle. Repeat something enough and it becomes a part of you.
Find something good to internalize. The choice is yours. The Gospels. Your favorite Sutra. Andrew Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Whatever it is, it should encourage you to be a better person.
posted by ilsa at 11:08 AM on June 10, 2006
Best answer: Cheesy as it is, I like Dr Phil's "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?"
When I get into a long-lasting argumentative mode, what I've started doing is catching myself as early as I can, taking a deep breath, and saying, "This issue is not as important as this relationship." And then every voice in my head will yell, "YES IT IS!!! I MUST MAKE THIS PERSON CHANGE HIS MIND! I MUST PROVE THAT I AM RIGHT!" and I will take another deep breath and repeat, "This issue is not as important as this relationship." Rinse, repeat, until I can get to the point where I can smile and say something like, "Well, I'm not sure. Let's talk about something else."
The trick, I think, is not that I'm conceding the point, I'm just choosing not to argue about it. The other person hasn't "won" -- because I, of course, know that I'm still right. :-)
The other trick, which may or may not apply to the arguments you're having, is "Never argue about something you can look up." If the answer is in a reference book or Wikipedia, there is no point or honor in having an argument about it.
These work best on things that really don't have an immediate impact on your life: political arguments, arguments about something that happened in the past that's not currently an issue, etc. I would say start practicing on those and then work towards more personal issues.
Another trick that may help: When you're acting in a way you don't like, stop and say, "I'm sorry. I'm acting like my mother/sister/grandmother, and I don't like it. Can we stop/talk about something else/laugh about this, please?"
posted by occhiblu at 2:11 PM on June 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
When I get into a long-lasting argumentative mode, what I've started doing is catching myself as early as I can, taking a deep breath, and saying, "This issue is not as important as this relationship." And then every voice in my head will yell, "YES IT IS!!! I MUST MAKE THIS PERSON CHANGE HIS MIND! I MUST PROVE THAT I AM RIGHT!" and I will take another deep breath and repeat, "This issue is not as important as this relationship." Rinse, repeat, until I can get to the point where I can smile and say something like, "Well, I'm not sure. Let's talk about something else."
The trick, I think, is not that I'm conceding the point, I'm just choosing not to argue about it. The other person hasn't "won" -- because I, of course, know that I'm still right. :-)
The other trick, which may or may not apply to the arguments you're having, is "Never argue about something you can look up." If the answer is in a reference book or Wikipedia, there is no point or honor in having an argument about it.
These work best on things that really don't have an immediate impact on your life: political arguments, arguments about something that happened in the past that's not currently an issue, etc. I would say start practicing on those and then work towards more personal issues.
Another trick that may help: When you're acting in a way you don't like, stop and say, "I'm sorry. I'm acting like my mother/sister/grandmother, and I don't like it. Can we stop/talk about something else/laugh about this, please?"
posted by occhiblu at 2:11 PM on June 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
First let me say, I'm one too. This is going to take a while, but persistence and vigilance will yield results. You've realized that you don't need to win in so many of these situations and that's a major paradigm shift from the time when you'd do it and never question it.
As for part of the solution, I second funambulist. I was going to say find a way to redirect this stuff. On the one hand, do work on your everyday interaction with people, perhaps using some of the other techniques mentioned here, but also try to find a positive channel for these behaviors, urges, traits, habits. If it's part of who you are, it isn't just going to cease. You need to find somewhere to shoot it, where it is acceptable.
I heard this same advice in therapy myself recently (I recommend therapy by the way. Doesn't mean you're crazy, you just need some neutral perspective as you further develop yourself). As for what alternate channel would be best, that'll be something for you to think about. Hey! Go be a trial lawyer! Those traits will be rewarded! Kidding, but you get me.
Lastly, don't be too hard on yourself. That can backfire and lead to a self-loathing which will mess up your life in fundamental ways. When you slip up, remind yourself that you're cognizant of your issues and are working on them daily, getting better gradually. It won't happen in a day, so forgive yourself and be patient.
As an excercise - try picking something that you normally manipulate/compete/argue about, and go in with the deliberate intention of "losing". If it's a political discussion, concede. Stop pushing your point even though you know you're right. Just let it go. If it's choosing which restaurant to eat dinner at, go in with a plan to let someone else have their choice. If it's cake, let someone else have the last piece. If there's someone who's usually factually wrong about things, start the conversation with them knowing that you're going to let the error hang there unrecognized/uncorrected. Arguments/competitions with the SO, with family and friends, etc., go in with the plan to yield. Pretend you're one of those saffron-robe-wearing monks, and work on building your selfless humility muscles. Feel how it is to let someone else have their way. It's not so bad, and if you don't place much significance on it, it evaporates, and your day proceeds stress free. Demystify "loss". Experiment with letting go.
I think we have an irrational fear of being controlled, so we control. We fear deprivation so we hoard for ourselves. We fear being manipulated or run over or minimized, so we make sure that can't happen by doing it ourselves. That's my absolutely not-qualified diagnosis, but it seems to hold water for me. I think part of what keeps us behaving this way is that we're afraid that once we start letting other people have control, or what we perceive as control, we'll never get it back. We assume other people think the same way we do and will take advantage of us. So I say give them a chance to do just that and see what actually happens. You don't have to be a doormat. You will know that you can reassert control at any point you choose, but you will run this as a temporary experiment with a defined beginning and end and a commitment to see it through. You can do lots of little mini experiments, or just one per day. Just stay mindful of it and see how you really feel when you're not enjoying the fruits of your usual manipulative ways. It might itch, but just see if you can tolerate not scratching it and see if it subsides.
posted by kookoobirdz at 2:45 PM on June 10, 2006
As for part of the solution, I second funambulist. I was going to say find a way to redirect this stuff. On the one hand, do work on your everyday interaction with people, perhaps using some of the other techniques mentioned here, but also try to find a positive channel for these behaviors, urges, traits, habits. If it's part of who you are, it isn't just going to cease. You need to find somewhere to shoot it, where it is acceptable.
I heard this same advice in therapy myself recently (I recommend therapy by the way. Doesn't mean you're crazy, you just need some neutral perspective as you further develop yourself). As for what alternate channel would be best, that'll be something for you to think about. Hey! Go be a trial lawyer! Those traits will be rewarded! Kidding, but you get me.
Lastly, don't be too hard on yourself. That can backfire and lead to a self-loathing which will mess up your life in fundamental ways. When you slip up, remind yourself that you're cognizant of your issues and are working on them daily, getting better gradually. It won't happen in a day, so forgive yourself and be patient.
As an excercise - try picking something that you normally manipulate/compete/argue about, and go in with the deliberate intention of "losing". If it's a political discussion, concede. Stop pushing your point even though you know you're right. Just let it go. If it's choosing which restaurant to eat dinner at, go in with a plan to let someone else have their choice. If it's cake, let someone else have the last piece. If there's someone who's usually factually wrong about things, start the conversation with them knowing that you're going to let the error hang there unrecognized/uncorrected. Arguments/competitions with the SO, with family and friends, etc., go in with the plan to yield. Pretend you're one of those saffron-robe-wearing monks, and work on building your selfless humility muscles. Feel how it is to let someone else have their way. It's not so bad, and if you don't place much significance on it, it evaporates, and your day proceeds stress free. Demystify "loss". Experiment with letting go.
I think we have an irrational fear of being controlled, so we control. We fear deprivation so we hoard for ourselves. We fear being manipulated or run over or minimized, so we make sure that can't happen by doing it ourselves. That's my absolutely not-qualified diagnosis, but it seems to hold water for me. I think part of what keeps us behaving this way is that we're afraid that once we start letting other people have control, or what we perceive as control, we'll never get it back. We assume other people think the same way we do and will take advantage of us. So I say give them a chance to do just that and see what actually happens. You don't have to be a doormat. You will know that you can reassert control at any point you choose, but you will run this as a temporary experiment with a defined beginning and end and a commitment to see it through. You can do lots of little mini experiments, or just one per day. Just stay mindful of it and see how you really feel when you're not enjoying the fruits of your usual manipulative ways. It might itch, but just see if you can tolerate not scratching it and see if it subsides.
posted by kookoobirdz at 2:45 PM on June 10, 2006
Best answer: This probably isn't going to win me any friends, but if you are trying to let go of controlling, manipulative, nagging, and/or passive-aggressive behaviors toward your SO, I would highly recommend this book. It literally transformed my relationship with my husband even before we were married, and when I find myself sliding back into those undesirable behaviors, rereading the book helps to get me back on track. More information can be found here.
posted by justonegirl at 2:47 PM on June 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by justonegirl at 2:47 PM on June 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
Follow the precepts of Jesus Christ. Learn of His life and emulate His behavior. Try and do what He would do in any given situation. Have an eternal perspective (this life is very short and could end at any moment). Endeavor to leave a legacy of love and selflessness.
posted by rinkjustice at 4:19 PM on June 10, 2006
posted by rinkjustice at 4:19 PM on June 10, 2006
To elaborate a bit on meditation... Jack Kornfield likens the practice of meditation as training a puppy. Put the puppy on the newspaper, and it will start to wander away. Every time you notice it wandering off, pick the puppy back up, and put it back on the newspaper. There's no point in scolding the puppy, this is just the way puppies are. Just have patience and persistence. The more you put the puppy back, the more it learns. It can't learn without the dedicated repetition, understanding and patience. So I think your post-it note idea is on the right track.
posted by overanxious ducksqueezer at 4:46 PM on June 10, 2006
posted by overanxious ducksqueezer at 4:46 PM on June 10, 2006
Mrs. Smith, give your SO explicit blanket permission to call you on this behavior. Not just in your head, really say it to them.
rinkjustice, that's fantastically shitty advice, deserving of any MeTa callout or deletion it gets. First of all, to Christians, Jesus was not an equal showing how to get along as an equal; he was the self aware SON OF GOD, imbued with power and knowledge beyond those around him. That's no fucking model for showing someone how to stop acting like they know what's best in any situation. On top of that, Jesus was reportedly dismissive of his mother and "father" at twelve, physically ejected people conducting business from common space, etc.
In short, save it for later. Hopefully MUCH later.
posted by NortonDC at 11:23 PM on June 10, 2006
rinkjustice, that's fantastically shitty advice, deserving of any MeTa callout or deletion it gets. First of all, to Christians, Jesus was not an equal showing how to get along as an equal; he was the self aware SON OF GOD, imbued with power and knowledge beyond those around him. That's no fucking model for showing someone how to stop acting like they know what's best in any situation. On top of that, Jesus was reportedly dismissive of his mother and "father" at twelve, physically ejected people conducting business from common space, etc.
In short, save it for later. Hopefully MUCH later.
posted by NortonDC at 11:23 PM on June 10, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by about_time at 6:57 PM on June 9, 2006