What to do when tech support contradicts itself?

May 26, 2006 4:01 AM

I know what's wrong with my Dell computer - I need to repair reinstall. But of course, Dells don't come with a Windows install disc, so I'm waiting for them to send me one [two weeks and counting...], but the tech support rep is contradicting himself and I don't know what to do.

The Indian man [worth mentioning because his accent is THICK] told me that he'd walk me through a repair install when my disc came, but it WOULD ERRASE all my data.

I said no, I checked the Dell site and I have the link to their repair install walkthrough that says like My Docs, etc. WOULD NOT get errased.

Tech rep keeps insisting that yes, all data will be errased and would I like to just restore the PC back to its original factory state?

I said I'd wait for the disc - that's 10 years of my life on that PC with dear photos, massive amounts of music, work archives, award winning stories, novels in progress - irreplaceable things. But now i'm worried when the disc actually comes [if it does, he's rang me 4 times in 2 weeks already to see if it's come and it hasnt], he'll walk me through something that WILL errase everyhitng I have.

It's beyond frustrating, this PC cost a bomb and is only 5 months old. Right now I feel like popping out my HD and insisting they take the ruddy thing back.

FYI - How did it break? I ran disck cleanup, got a really weird error message, and when I attempted to reboot I got a "load kernel" error, which needs a repair reinstall. So I was acutally just using a "normal" progam that came with this PC - and it was totally spyware/whatever free, I'm incredibly anal about that. I really dont think a PC should break just because I run maintenance one Saturday...

Any advice? If there's anything that'll turn me into a Mac user it's this. The worst part is that I know my data is in there a-okay, I just cant boot to get it! I can't even put it in my old spare PC because that uses ribbon calbes and these Dells use ATA.

posted by Chorus to computers & internet (26 comments total)

Are you able to burn your important data to CD or DVD, maybe a USB thumb drive. It really is best to do a fresh install of the OS, and the only way to do that would be to remove all data, format drive, then reinstall OS.
posted by killyb at 4:11 AM on May 26, 2006

OK, I don't know what Dell's processes are but I would be surprised if they are going to send you actual Windows install media just because you asked for it. My guess is that there has been some confusion, and if you're going to get anything it'll be another recovery CD (you should definitely have got one of these with the machine, right?).

My suggestion would be to get a cheap USB hard drive enclosure (20 bucks or less) and use that to back up your data onto your old machine. You can then just restore your new machine back to the factory state with the recovery CD, and then use the enclosure again to get the data off the old machine.

As to how it broke, I have no ideas.
posted by teleskiving at 4:16 AM on May 26, 2006

Dell does in fact send you actual Windows media even if you don't ask for it when you are running into tech support problems. I had a motherboard fry and they sent me a new XP cd with SP2 on it without my asking.

Chorus, you can do an install repair with the Windows XP cd that will re-install all of the vital OS files leaving your documents and programs intact. As killyb says, its probably best to reinstall on a freshly formated HD though.

You could try the repair procedure, if it works, remove data to CD, DVD or USB drives and then format.

Finally, this whole experience has been your reminder to come up with a good backup scheme in the future.

Good luck.
posted by jduckles at 4:24 AM on May 26, 2006

Sorry, to specify -

I can't even boot to the desktop with the broken PC. I get the Dell splash screen, then a black screen with the load kernal error message - can't get any further than that without inserting a Windows CD. So I can't actually even get to copying the data off, which sucks because I have a 400GB USB external HD in the wings.

The only discs it came with were the drivers for the printer and PC, there was a slip of paper that said if I needed a Windows CD I was to contact a support rep.

A few people I've spoken to elsewhere have said that Dell will send out the required disc - and that's what the rep claims to have done. But there's no sign of it.
posted by Chorus at 4:28 AM on May 26, 2006

jduckles - Yeah, that's pretty much been drilled into me by now. Like, jackhammered into my subconscious.

Hear that everybody? Go back up this instant!
posted by Chorus at 4:30 AM on May 26, 2006

If what you're getting is a true Windows install disk, then yes, you SHOULD be able to save your data while reinstalling the OS.

If what you're getting is some Dell "System restore/repair" disk, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it wipes the disk clean -- or at least the partition.

Some would suggest that you simply try an install from a Windows install disk that fell off a truck, get your data off to safety, and then instal from the restore disk when it arrives. That's a tempting solution, but it rather puts you out in a place where Dell won't help you if it goes bad.

So, how about booting from one of the many all-on-one-CD Linux distributions that offer some rescue tools? That would get you a Linux desktop, where you could mount the Windows partitions read-only and get the data to safety without actually changing or writing anything to the hard drive.
posted by tyllwin at 4:42 AM on May 26, 2006

Front-line tech support is trained to tell everybody to reinstall for all but minor or very specific known problems because it's the easiest thing to do and eliminates a huge number of variables that a vendor can't (or won't) afford to train support to handle. But that doesn't mean it's always -- or even usually -- necessary. Of course, a load kernel message is a teensy worse than run-of-the-mill boot failure.

What's the exact error message you see? Can you copy it down, words, numbers, and anything else it puked up and report it back here? There might be another way besides a reinstall.

As others will or have already told you, and have discussed in a number of other topics, there are reasonable options to grab the data off the hard disk. They fall under the two main categories of physically yanking it out for copying elsewhere, or booting with Knoppix or a recovery utility or somesuch and copying the files off that way. I wouldn't fret overmuch about getting access to the data, unless the hard disk is physically damaged.

As for a Mac, well, I'm related to someone who successfully crashed his OS X computer twice in one month seriously enough that he had a tech come out and do a full OS reinstall both times. Yeah, you'll hear a lot of people say "Macs just work". And they do. Except when they don't. Crashless computer? Never saw one. Maybe a stripped down embed.
posted by mdevore at 4:48 AM on May 26, 2006

The Dell guy has probably been instructed to tell you that all your data will be erased because there's a chance it could happen. He is better off to prepare you for that possibility than to tell you your data will be there, or "probably" will still be there, and then incur your wrath if it's not.

As you say, though, that's ten years of your life...it makes sense to back up first if you can. Is there some reason why teleskiving's suggestion of getting a USB enclosure for your HD and backing up to the old computer won't work? Does the old computer have USB?
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:50 AM on May 26, 2006

You say that you've got an external 400Gig disk. Presumably, that's in an enclosure. Why not swap the disk in the enclosure, with the internal disk? That way, you could perform a full OS reinstall, and still retain all of the data that you're worried about losing.
posted by veedubya at 4:58 AM on May 26, 2006

I know that if you do a reinstall, it will just do a fresh windows install on the system (often, they send you a mirror image that just wipes out your hard drive and replaces it with that mirror image - much easier than trying to install drivers and crap). If they send you a windows disc, then you can do a "Repair" installation yourself. However, if Repair doesn't work, you really DO need to find some other way to back up your data.

I presume that when you say that one computer uses ribbon cables, and the other uses ATA, you mean S-ATA? If your data is that all fired important, get an S-ATA card for your other computer (or an S-ATA USB drive enclosure, if they make them) and copy off all your stuffs.
posted by antifuse at 5:01 AM on May 26, 2006

Find a local person or company to fix this. If the data is irreplaceable you need to stop trusting some indian reading a script. Don't use any CD to try to repair things in place. Have someone pull all the data off the drive before making any changes to the drive itself.
posted by joelr at 5:08 AM on May 26, 2006

I had a problem installing an extra hard drive. If you look at the dell forums, there's a guy named Asked Rick who offers help for free (and you can donate if you so wish).

I asked Rick, he solved my problem via email ASAP and saved me a lot of grief. I donated $25 to Rick...and it was worth every nickle.

I suggest you ask Rick and skip calling the help desk in India or wherever it is these days. Outsourcing sucks. :)
posted by bim at 5:29 AM on May 26, 2006

Also, since you seem like you might know your way around computers, you ought to try building your own box one day. It's significantly cheaper and a lot more rewarding.
posted by DefendBrooklyn at 5:32 AM on May 26, 2006

What I would do:
1. Go to fatwallet.com
2. Find the cheapest Sata drive that meets my needs (search for "sata").
3. Read the directions to learn how to set the jumpers.
4. Install it into my PC.
5. Go into the BIOS, tell the computer to boot from CD-ROM.
6. Use a knoppix CD or something like this to copy my old HD to my new one.
posted by Kwantsar at 5:42 AM on May 26, 2006

Why not take old hard drive out, buy another (cheap) hard drive, and install windows on it? Then put old harddrive back in, and remove all the files you need that way before you format it. That's what I had to do once my machine got too bogged down with Spyware.
posted by ZackTM at 5:46 AM on May 26, 2006

A Windows re-install will not break your system.

Here's how you tell it's a reinstall: You boot from CD, you get the blue screen that says "Windows Setup", and you are given a choice between installing or repairing Windows. It should look like this.

If you do not see this - if you see a graphical environment instead of a plain blue screen with white letters - if you see a Dell logo of some kind - stop immediately. If this happens you do NOT have a WinXP install disk, you have a Restore disk of some sort that will most likely erase your drive.

If you have the normal install screen, you will be prompted to select an option to continue, and when you do so it will load stuff from the CD and then do the install/repair. You do NOT want to choose "Repair" from this first screen - There is some very good info on what you DO want to do, and a good step-by-step here.

If this goes as planned you should see a transparent fix - all broken system files are replaced with good copies, your computer works again, and your data is fine. Your wallpaper shouldn't even change.

Having said all of this, you really should do a backup of some kind before you start. Either pop your drive out and stick in a friend's machine to copy data over (all you really need to move is My Docs if you have the important things there and not elsewhere), or use a bootdisk to start your system and then transfer files.

If you go the bootdisk route: You might consider going for BartPE, not Knoppix. Why? BartPE boots into a Windows environment, and the standard Windows software for fixing/repairing/etc. can be included and run from the disk, in a normal-looking (to a Windows user) environment. PE is "Preinstall Environment", the idea being you can test your system or make system changes prior to actually installing to the HDD.

You need a friend with the time to help build it (doesn't take too long) and a Windows disk (you need it for the OS files). This will not require you to have a Windows activation/registration code, nor will you need a crack for Windows, but you need a disk or disk image to make the CD.

Once you have one, and it's bootable, you are in really good shape - I have successfully repaired several "broken" systems just by booting up and running some disk utilities, anti-malware, etc. from the BartPE disk.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:08 AM on May 26, 2006

Have you tried booting in safe mode? May not work but worth a shot.
posted by gfrobe at 6:12 AM on May 26, 2006

This doesn't help you with your current problem, but just a word about Dell support...

I've had only GOOD experiences with their Indian phone support, except for one time when I just couldn't understand the woman's accent. So I called back early on a Saturday morning, and spoke to a man who claimed to be in Alabama. I don't know if he was really in Alabama, or if he was their star pupil in learning American English, but what I do know is I was able to understand him, he deviated from the script (!!), and once he understood that I was an experienced user, he talked "geek" talk with me, and was able to suggest more advanced things to try to fix my motherboard problem.

So I would suggest you keep trying Dell, especially at "off" times, and try to reach someone else. You never know.

(Also, anecdotally, I used the Dell recovery disk on my laptop first. It didn't fix my particular problem, but it also didn't erase any of my data.)
posted by SuperSquirrel at 6:22 AM on May 26, 2006

When you do have a Windows install disk and can get to a recovery console, you might want to try these Eight Commands first.
posted by rsclark at 7:30 AM on May 26, 2006

"Also, since you seem like you might know your way around computers, you ought to try building your own box one day. It's significantly cheaper and a lot more rewarding."

No it's not. I don't know why people continue to trumpet this bullshit, but these days, it's really not much cheaper. And most of the time it can be a total pain in the ass. For a 16 yr old gamer that thinks they need the absolute highest framerate possible, maybe. But for the rest of us? It's not cheaper, not faster, and usually not more rewarding. At least our friend Chorus here has *some* form of free technical support to fall back on.
Chorus: If you use a 'off a truck' Windows CD, you might be able to repair Windows, but you may also lack drivers needed for things like.. oh, video, network, etc. And consider this (which I have very recently seen on a Dell box) - if the box shipped with XP sp2 and you go and install XP sp0, BAD THINGS happen. I did that very same experiment less than 2 weeks ago.
Which model Dell box is it? Chances are it has a Serial ATA drive since you said it's only 5 months old. You can put multiple Serial ATA devices into the machine. Perhaps you can find another SATA hard drive and replace your current one. Then install Windows onto that new drive (while your original one is disconnected) and once the box is back up & patched, slave your original hard drive off of the Dell box and copy your data back over.
And I second the idea of investing in a decent backup solution. Hopefully that's what you're using that 400gb external drive for!
Heck, if you have 2 SATA drives internal that are the same size, you can use the built-in Windows RAID and mirror your disks AND also back up your data to that external drive frequently.
posted by drstein at 7:40 AM on May 26, 2006

drstein: Why get on my case for siggesting an alternative? I never said it was for the rest of you. It's for people who know their way around computers and would like to use their hands and a bit of creativity to build something, out of necessity or hobby. Same reason why some people build their own decks or kit cars.

That said, for $799 you can build a very fast computer, far better than the software-bloated and barely-upgradeable Dells.
posted by DefendBrooklyn at 8:06 AM on May 26, 2006

drstein: Why get on my case for siggesting an alternative? I never said it was for the rest of you. It's for people who know their way around computers and would like to use their hands and a bit of creativity to build something, out of necessity or hobby. Same reason why some people build their own decks or kit cars.

Not really germane to the poster's question here, though, is it?
posted by misterbrandt at 8:24 AM on May 26, 2006

Who needs an enclosure?

The linked product is $35, it can handle SATA, big and little IDE connectors and has a power supply. Its perfect for situations like this where the disk works but won't boot.

If you have a second machine with sufficient space plug your non-booting drive into this doohicky, plug the USB into your working box, backup, re-install the non-booting drive into your non-booting machine and then try whatever recovery mechanism you like.

That said, if you can't/don't want to do this the Recovery Console on that XP CD that's 'in the mail' can probably fix your boot record without even reinstalling.

The gist of it is once you're in the recovery console, you can try the following commands (assuming Windows is at C:\WINDOWS):

chkdsk C:
fixmbr C:
fixboot C:
bootcfg /rebuild (and if your Windows install is detected, select it)


These commands shouldn't affect anything outside of the bare-bones boot process so your data should be safe, but...

The Best Thing to do is to get all your data off and then fiddle around. Hell, harddrives are cheap, get a new one, unplug the old one and do a full reinstall on that, then do whatever you want with your old one.

Also, building your own machine is great because you Get What You Want, not what Dell's marketing division thinks you want. Try getitng Dell to ship you an SFF machine with a decent graphics card and 2 10krpm drives.
posted by Skorgu at 8:33 AM on May 26, 2006

I support a few dozen dell boxes and the disk this person is going to get is an XP installtion disk that only works with Dell OEM serial numbers.

Otherwise it's just like any other XP disk.
posted by sideshow at 8:39 AM on May 26, 2006

Dude, you're paving a Dell.

The system disc you will receive will almost certainly wipe your HD clean. Before it arrives, find yourself another boot disc and use it to fire up that machine long enough to perform a full data backup. Someone above recommended Knoppix, which I have used to great effect under similar circumstances at the office.

I have paved two Dells for my family, one of which I'm using at this very moment, with Dell system restore discs. Both were wiped clean. Plan on that and protect yourself accordingly.
posted by mikewas at 2:03 PM on May 26, 2006

I think everyone responding has failed to recognize that Chorus's level of computer knowledge seems to be somewhere near the median of all people, not near the median of MeFi readers. Therefore I suggest hauling the whole machine into a local computer repair shop and asking them to recover his "My Documents" directory onto his external drive. Then reformat and re-install everything as directed by the tech support guy.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 3:35 PM on May 27, 2006