How to deal with unprofessional liquor patrol agents?

May 21, 2006 4:56 AM

I had an incredibly rude, and I think incredibly unethical run-in with the liquor patrol at the bars last night. I wish to do something about it but I do not know where to start.

A very seedy looking man (gray hair, 50s, overweight, mustache), kind of pervy looking with absolutely not identication (like an ABC jacket or badge) claimed to be from liquor patrol and went around asking just the girls in the group for IDs. He then started asking for signatures and really questioning the IDs (for the record, all my friends are legal age). To me it looked like he was flirting and also memorizing everyone's name. A male friend stepped up and started to ask for some identification. At this point the man became very irate and told him not to speak unless spoken to and that "he could him in jail very quickly." To me this very defensive approach sent off all kinds of warning bells. It seems entirely reasonable to ask for identification from what could very well be a perv, I'm suppose to take this guy's word for it?

He got even more irate and told us all that he wanted to right down our IDs (except for mine I had no beer or liquor in my hand). Everyone refused and one went to get staff to call the police. The staff came over and assured us that it was liquor patrol, he still wouldn't show us any identification or anything but had this very smug look and made a comment that went something along the lines of, "respect authority when you see it." He also wouldn't tell us his name, telling us that he would tell us all we needed to know.

We all left and he made another smart ass comment as we did. I don't think anything illegal took place, but the behavior in my opinion is at worst dangerous and at the very least just incredibly pig-headed.

By the way the staff were treating him I do believe he actually was liquor patrol. What was very odd was the staff was incredibly submissive and visibly afraid of this man -- usually in my experience they try to mediate between customers and the law.

Are liquor patrol agents affiliated with the police, or are they a separate arm of the government? It seems odd if he was a police officer he wouldn't have seen how reasonable it was to just simply show his badge or some identification. I should say that as far as my friends they were incredibly respectful and were very clear on wanting to just see identification. There was no foul or belligerent language used on our part.

Anyway, would it be fruitful to try to follow up with a formal complaint to the correct agency? Do you think it will fall on deaf ears? I mean is this regular course of action and am I making a big deal out of it?

posted by anonymous to law & government (28 comments total)

I don't think anything illegal took place
Neither am I, but I bet you were within your legal rights to refuse to co-operate without seeing ID.
posted by atrazine at 5:09 AM on May 21, 2006

Did this happen in the US? Oh, you're anonymous so we'll probably never know.

99% of the law enforcement people in bars are uniformed cops. The other 1% in my experience are agents from the ABC and they will present ID before asking for yours. In the places I've lived, California, Arizona, Nevada and Texas, I've never heard of "liquor patrols".

I would like to think if that happened to me, I'd have the balls to insist on seeing ID before cooperation. And if threatened with jail, wait for a uniformed officer to show up. Then again, we'd probably leave and find somewhere else to hang out without the hassle.

Perhaps the law that was broken was impersonating a police officer. You should follow up with your local police to determine whether that guy was legit. I'm sure they'd want to know that someone was going around writing down girls' names and addresses saying they were a cop. If your town's standard operating procedure is for cops to not show identification then you should escalate to the city council/mayor/county commissioner.
posted by birdherder at 5:27 AM on May 21, 2006

The fact that he wouldn't even identify himself by name says it all here; an officer of this nature, if doing his job within the limits of it, would have no problem identifying himself. You have reason to at least follow up.

I would suggest calling the liquor patrol and finding out if this man was indeed an officer (by description, I'm sure they'll know his name); if he was not, perhaps you ought to launch a complaint with the better business bureau, local business chambers and whoever controls who gives the bar their liquor license; aiding a man who is misrepresenting himself as a legal official smells incredibly illegal and the bar and staff are deserve recourse for it.

Good luck.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 5:33 AM on May 21, 2006

Sounds like your were harassed by a private citizen, regardless of whether he was an inspector or not - by refusing to provide ID he loses the protection his office or authority affords (in a perfect world). It's one thing to just say "stop police!" when involved in a chase, but if you're just standing around being questioned you have a right to know who is doing the questioning, especially if they're a standards officer and not a peace officer.

Call the police and report that you suspect an identity thief was working in that bar at the time you were there, and indicate that he identified himself as a law enforcement officer without providing any proof, and that he refused to give his name.
posted by tiamat at 5:33 AM on May 21, 2006

You should go back and ask staff or the owner what's up with this guy, get some background, it would be extremely helpful to get a name for Mr. Youwillrespectmyauthoritay.

My impression based on your description is that he has some kind of official staus and is abusing it for all it's worth. If you want to have fun with him next time you could make a point of taking his picture. That will of course piss him off so be prepared. You could have one person obviously take his pic. while another uses a hiden camera to video tape the incident. I'm sure he'd enjoy being on the internet.

You can probably get an address off any liquor license certificate and send in a written complaint. I would suggest that you get as many people as possible to write actual physical letters. If he is connected to the liquor authority they might tell him to back off a little.

You can also have them send letters to the local police department saying that an anonomous man is going around bars and demanding to see peoples wallets, has no ID himself, ask if this is a real peace officer or some kind of con. They won't make him back off, but they might get him to barely flash a badge or something. You could also write to the mayors office with the same question.

If you're feeling adventurous, make up warning posters with his picture and place them in womens bathrooms at every bar in town. Warn them that he likes to harrass and intimidate women and advise them to call the police at once if this man approachs them and tries to pretend to be some kind of officer.

This would probably work if contacting his station doesn't, but the local cops would be either amused or quite pissed about it, and they would have names and addresses from all those letters, so use your judgement...
posted by Ken McE at 5:35 AM on May 21, 2006

Is "liquor patrol" some sort of established concept in certain places? In NYC we don't have cops going into bars and IDing people. Instead, their M.O. is to send underaged cadets into a bar until they get served without carding three times. (Apparently they'll send the cadets in a couple hundred times if they have to, and I've heard vague rumors they take bribes, which makes sense given a few places I know that are brazenly known for not carding.)
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 5:46 AM on May 21, 2006

Call the Police Dept. Find out who's in charge of liquor law enforcement and inspection. Write a letter of complaint with details, and especially tour concern that it could be someone posing as a cop. Be factual, calm, and incredibly polite.
posted by theora55 at 6:27 AM on May 21, 2006

If the bar folks know this guy, it might be worth talking to the management there. They won't be able to make him do anything (unless he's just a rowdy/creepy regular) but it might help you get to the bottom of it all.
posted by jaysus chris at 6:35 AM on May 21, 2006

Call your local FBI office. They're usually keen on exposing instances of corruption on this level.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:48 AM on May 21, 2006

Liquor Patrol is common in college towns especially, and has been becoming common in Texas due a state law against public drunkenness, including public drunkenness inside of bars. My guess is that the poster is in Texas due to referring to the liquor control agency as the ABC, as opposed to the ATFB or OLCC or some of the other state agencies that I've been familiar with.

To be honest, I probably would've stopepd identifying and indeed asked him to call the police. The ABC officers here in Texas did not have the authority to arrest or cite anyone, they only had the authority to call the police and ask the police to cite people, and the police had the ability to say no. (If I read the news story correctly. I could be wrong.)

I'll second the other posters... this sounds fishy. But I'd do it this way. Monday morning, call the local police department. Ask to speak to the chief or the on-duty lieutenant. Ask them if they're familiar with who the local liquor control officer is, and describe your run-in. If they sound concerned or want more information, write a letter. It *is* possible to report something like this without giving your name.

If they don't act concerned, I'd call your local paper. Just about every paper carried a story when they started cracking down on the public drunkenness laws here in Texas. What makes this sound *really* fishy is that if this is indeed here in Texas is that the ABC pulled in most of the agents that were doing the checking were pulled in after the public outcry.
posted by SpecialK at 7:04 AM on May 21, 2006

I think you're absolutely in the right for demanding identification from an un-uniformed officer. The authority you're supposed to respect "when you see it" is when you see the ID that proves he's not just some shmoe with a snarl, even if the bar owners say he is.

If he did it in Texas, and wasn't an officer, he was impersonating an officer (high crime) and needs to be reported ASAP, because if he wasn't reported he'll assume it was OK and do it again somewhere else. I'm a former newspaper reporter on the police beat (currently a securit dispatcher, lots of police contact) myself, so I'd be asking for names and such from the bar owners who claimed he was legit, and then calling the PD myself to verify. If you were in my city, I'd do it for you myself.

I'm in Texas like SpecialK, and also read a few articles about the public drunkenness crackdowns in the Dallas area that they could take people in without even taking breathalizers (which sounds really unfair to me, and I'm a nondrinker). I don't think it was the ATF (might have been), but some other similar agency that I'd never quite heard much of before. I've never heard of Liquor Patrol.

I think the biggest red flag should have been that he was becoming irate. I would have had the fuzz there quick or at least had him verified before I even left. Not showing his badge plus raising his voice would be reason enough to speak with management about details on the bozo.
posted by vanoakenfold at 7:29 AM on May 21, 2006

The police dept in my city (which is a college town) are on the news every week reminding people to ask to see a badge AND a picture ID from the dept if they have any dealings with police. If this guy wouldn't even give you his name, I'd definately think you need to contact the authorities and let them know what happened.

Also, the owner of the bar needs to know about it because his staff was apparently going along with the guy, which means if this happens a lot business is going to be in the toilet fast.

Btw, we don't have Liquor Patrol in Florida, at least not in my town and we have lots o' drunk college kids.
posted by hollygoheavy at 7:42 AM on May 21, 2006

Its all in how you ask for it. You challenged him pretty hard from the sounds of it, and thats not in your best interests.
A light hearted, casual "sure no problem. I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours" might very well have had a completely different result.
posted by Fupped Duck at 7:43 AM on May 21, 2006

Did this happen in the US?

Well, he used the word liquor, so...
posted by ascullion at 7:57 AM on May 21, 2006

ABC officers here in Texas did not have the authority to arrest or cite anyone, they only had the authority to call the police and ask the police to cite people, and the police had the ability to say no. (If I read the news story correctly. I could be wrong.)

You are wrong. TABC employs commissioned law enforcement officers who have the powers the police do.
posted by grouse at 8:09 AM on May 21, 2006

Are liquor patrol agents affiliated with the police, or are they a separate arm of the government?

In NC, they're a separate division, Alcohol Law Enforcement, within the state Department of Crime Control and Public Safety, which includes the Highway Patrol, Emergency Management, NC National Guard, etc. Here, at least, that means no official link to the local cops, and I'm guessing that's true in other states, but you'll have to check.

This isn't unusual behavior for liquor agents, btw. By far the rudest experience a couple of friends and I ever had with a government official was with an ALE agent in Raleigh - and I've heard many similar stories. It's like they know they're not real cops and so go overboard on the authority trip. We didn't bother complaining, and I regret it to this day. Don't expect a whole lot, but do file an official complaint, which at the very least will be available in case this guy ever gets called up on something more serious.
posted by mediareport at 8:12 AM on May 21, 2006

This is why the default position when anyone, even a sales clerk, asks to see ID is "Why?"

I refuse to show my ID without asking "Why?" to anyone unless it is my credit union, I am buying cigarettes, entering a bar or buying alcohol.

I don't want to get in the habit of handing it over. I suggest you draw your lines in the sand now, because IDing yourself is only going to become more ubiquitous.

Sales clerks who ask for my ID when I am using a credit card/debit card don't get to see it. If they refuse the sale, I ask them to get someone who will sell whatever-it-is to me. 9 times out of 10, they do.
posted by 517 at 8:15 AM on May 21, 2006

Maybe "liquor patrol" means "organized crime", and this guy was just putting on a show for the owners of the bar ("I can come in here and harass your customers any time I want, so you better pay up.")

But then, I'm from Chicago...
posted by SuperSquirrel at 8:27 AM on May 21, 2006

517, I have only recently begun to be asked to show ID when using a credit card at a couple of places.

This seems ridiculous to me when there are so many opportunities (U-Scan self checkouts, Target's credit card acceptor-machine) where it seems anyone could use anyone's card and it would never be known.

The other thing is those Etch-A-Sketch thingys that you sign with the electronic pen (as a rule) make it look like a two-year old tried to write the alphabet. They are next to illegible. How is this valid?

Sorry for the derail... I hate being asked to show ID by clerks who see me every week but if it's store policy, I guess they have to. It just seems ridiculous in light of how simple it would be to use someone else's card the other 90% of the time.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 9:12 AM on May 21, 2006

Once, several years ago, some acquaintances and I were walking along south Broad Street here in Philadelphia. Two of these friends of mine had bottles of beer that they were drinking as we walked from the car to the house. Two men in a shit-brown POS rode up next to us, and told my friend that he was a police officer, and that she needed to pour out her alcohol.

Immediately, I asked them to show identification or a badge or something. So, one of them whipped out his wallet, flashed his driver's license at for a split second, and then continued berating my friend (whom I had told not to comply yet). I grinned at the fellow who'd shown me his driver's license, pulled out my cellphone, and told him that I was reporting him for impersonating a police officer.

They drove off very quickly.

I suspect that you were conned, just like my friend was. Seriously, do not comply if you don't see some sort of ID.
posted by Netzapper at 10:25 AM on May 21, 2006

Seriously, do not comply if you don't see some sort of ID.

Yeah, the problem with that is that if they are actual patrolmen (which is suggested, though not proved, by the staff's reaction), they're likely to be exactly the sort of petty, vindictive assholes who will give you as much grief as they can if you cross them, possibly including arresting you on false pretences. It's a tough situation. But definitely check with the bar staff and see whether they know for a fact that these guys are patrolmen or whether they're just intimidated.
posted by languagehat at 11:17 AM on May 21, 2006

I hate being asked to show ID by clerks who see me every week but if it's store policy, I guess they have to.

It's unlikely to be store policy in North America since that violates the agreement they have with the payment processor. More likely it is an misinformed clerk or manager.

You can report a merchant violation to MasterCard, who will sort this out.
posted by grouse at 11:21 AM on May 21, 2006 [1 favorite]

I don't think anything illegal took place

If the guy's not really "liquor patrol" then he broke the law by impersonating an officer.
posted by delmoi at 1:08 PM on May 21, 2006

It's against the law to impersonate a police officer, pure and simple. It is also required by ANY and EVERY law enforcement agency (I know of) to present ID when issuing any command or request they they have privledge to issue.

If this comes up again, suggest that if they don't display an ID with their badge number, you will call the police because you believe they are impersonating an officer of the law.

There is no reason an honest officer would ever hesitate to show his/her badge.
posted by hatsix at 3:35 PM on May 21, 2006

Are liquor patrol agents affiliated with the police, or are they a separate arm of the government?

Depends on the state. In general, they are government agents with arrest powers and narrowly defined beats. Ideally, they're not cruising for underage chicks to arrest, but checking IDs to build cases against bars and restaurants that aren't following the law.

It seems odd if he was a police officer he wouldn't ... just show his badge.

Again, it depends on the state, but this may be a violation of police procedure. Some states require all officers to show ID when challenged. This may be the biggest legit complaint you have against this person, provided he is legit himself (and I would speculate that he is, given the staff's reaction in this instance).

I should say that as far as my friends they were incredibly respectful and were very clear on wanting to just see identification. There was no foul or belligerent language used on our part.

If you make your complaint (see below), be sure to be as exact as possible. Time, date, place, location within the joint, the size and makeup of the crowd. Realize that any reaction on the officer's part will be blown out of proportion ("I was just doing my job and was accosted by 50 angry people...")

I making a big deal out of it?

Insert standard "you can't fight city hall" speech here.

Anyway, would it be fruitful to try to follow up with a formal complaint to the correct agency? Do you think it will fall on deaf ears?

If you can make a well-written, unemotional statement (e.g. leave out the "he looked like a perv" part) about how an officer was refusing to show identification, you might make an impact. But this impact will be invisible to you. You'll never see anything happen yourself -- at best, this comes up in a report somewhere completely out of public sight, and this guy's superior says something to him like "Next time, be sure to..."

Another option, instead of filing a report, would be to make a friend at a television station. But that's a longshot.
posted by frogan at 3:41 PM on May 21, 2006

If this comes up again, suggest that if they don't display an ID with their badge number, you will call the police because you believe they are impersonating an officer of the law.

That's actually an interesting idea. Whip out the cell phone right there in front of him and start dialing 911...

But ... what does it gain you? It'll sure ruin your evening...
posted by frogan at 3:44 PM on May 21, 2006

Who and what this guy was depends largely on the state. As for recourse, write a letter to the bar telling them how very uncool this was.
posted by desuetude at 7:06 PM on May 21, 2006

In California, ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control) investigators are in fact fully sworn (and armed) peace officers.
Great guys to go on ride-alongs with, actually.
Anonymous, I wish that you had at least told us what country this was in. If it were here in California, you could simply contact the ABC office and lodge a complaint. Get your friends to do the same thing.
posted by drstein at 9:49 PM on May 21, 2006