Is that our waitress?

May 13, 2006 5:31 PM

Our waitress took the late, over-cooked burger off the check. Should we have tipped on the pre- or post-adjustment amount?

My friend ordered a burger cooked medium, but it arrived rare. The waitress took it back to the kitchen while the rest of our group began eating. My friend twice asked the waitress about the tardy burger. The first time the waitress said a new burger was on the grill, and the second time her smile instantly changed to an "oh shit!" look and she practically sprinted towards the kitchen. She came back with an over-cooked burger, which she took off the check.

My friends were adamant in their opinion that the tip should reflect the reduced total: She took it off the check because she made a mistake, so the lower tip is appropriate.

I thought the tip should be based on the total before the burger was removed: Since the burger wasn't right, she made it free, and that deserves a tip.

Which approach is more appropriate?

posted by reeddavid to food & drink (42 comments total)

I think since your friend never recieved a proper burger, the tip should be on the reduced total. It would be different if she ultimately got your friend a free-and-proper burger.
posted by reverendX at 5:34 PM on May 13, 2006

You're right. Your friends are cheap bastards.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 5:35 PM on May 13, 2006

Like you, I would have tipped her on the original amount, not the amount less the free burger, but I wouldn't say it's wrong to tip on the final amount. She did make a mistake, but she also did what she could to make up for it, which is the best she could have done aside from going back and time and unmaking the mistake.

I'm a little biased, having waited tables for a short period, it was the most difficult and tiring job I've ever had, and I made a LOT of mistakes, so I tend to be pretty forgiving. Heh.
posted by pazazygeek at 5:35 PM on May 13, 2006 [1 favorite]

If your burger was $10, you're arguing over $1.50. Unless the waitress also arranged the undercooked burger on your head comme un chapeau, you give her the benefit of the doubt. Understand that any deviations from the 'order-dropoff-howsthefood-bill' routine are strange.

So my subjective opinion is that although you could technically tip on the actual "food received" total, to do so is being purely passive-agressively dickish if the waitress was truly apologetic and we're talking one lousy frickin' dollar or so.
posted by kcm at 5:38 PM on May 13, 2006 [1 favorite]

I probably wouldn't make an effort to eat with friends that acted like this - another reason I think every person should work a service industry job for one year in their lifetime.
posted by kcm at 5:40 PM on May 13, 2006

Let me explain a little more since it's not really obvious what I meant - the first time, it was the kitchen's fault, not hers. The second time, it was also the kitchen's fault, not hers: first it was cooking, then it was overcooked. Neither of which she could do much about herself, other than maybe being more informative during the process and quicker about bringing it out, but then again I don't think you were at a fine dining establishment. Don't take your petty control games out on her over a dollar. :)
posted by kcm at 5:45 PM on May 13, 2006

yeah, i think the best advice here as with anything pertaining to tipping is to always err on the generous side.

unless you're such close personal friends with your money that a buck or two makes a difference to you. and in that case, should you really be eating out?
posted by Hat Maui at 5:50 PM on May 13, 2006

If the burger was consumed, I'd tip on it. If it was discarded no. Tips are typically shared with the kitchen as I understand it.
posted by Manjusri at 5:50 PM on May 13, 2006

I probably wouldn't eat with anyone who complains over how a hamburger is cooked. You should tip the waitress on service.
posted by fire&wings at 5:52 PM on May 13, 2006

I'm with your friends: perfectly content to pay a tip based on the amount that ends up on the bill. I also think that if something comes off the bill, it should come off entirely.
posted by thejoshu at 5:54 PM on May 13, 2006

Stick with Hat Maui on everything except the split infinitives; who cares about those? Tips are gratuities. They're gestures of courtesy. Err toward generosity rather than be niggardly. Also, off-topic, leaning toward MetaTalk territory, these tipping threads are almost pure flame-bait.
posted by cgc373 at 6:03 PM on May 13, 2006

Messing up the burger is the kitchen's fault and should not be taken out on the waitress.
Having to inquire twice about your replacement is the waitresses fault and should be reflected in the tip by, say, dropping it from 15% to 10%.

However(and it's not clear in your post), if you ate the overcooked burger, then you definitely should be tipping based on the original bill. If you didn't, tipping based on the modified bill is fine.
posted by madajb at 6:06 PM on May 13, 2006

Having to inquire twice about your replacement is the waitresses fault and should be reflected in the tip by, say, dropping it from 15% to 10%.

gaw??? I agree with everything else madajb said, but this is crazy. Tipping 10% is never acceptable [in the US]. Having to inquire twice about the burger, if anything, should reduce the tip from 20% or over, down closer to 15%. The worst waitress on earth should get 15%, assuming she doesn't do anything horrible like swear at you or...I don't even know. This waitress obviously made an innocent mistake, nothing deliberate or malicious. In fact she did the right thing and corrected the mistake. I agree with all those who say to err on the side of generosity. It will come back to you. But I also wouldn't beat yourself up about it, as it probably wasn't a huge difference for one burger. It's more the sentiment (read: respect) involved. Waitresses understand that when something's been taken off the bill, even if it's not to correct a mistake, people forget to include it in the tip or they just can't calculate it right in their heads. So I'm sure she didn't take it too hard.
posted by lampoil at 6:19 PM on May 13, 2006

Tips shouldn't be based on the amount of the bill, the tip should be based on the level of service. A waitress in a diner can provide far better service than a waiter at a $100/plate restaurant. Who do you think needs you money more?
posted by blue_beetle at 6:21 PM on May 13, 2006

Your friends are cheap. Of course there is not written rule. Some people don't tip at all. But anyone who says it's 'correct' to tip on the reduced charge is wrong, and probably never worked at a restaurant in their lives.

(Honestly, as someone said, we're talking about such a small amount of money. If you can't afford 1.50 then you shouldn't be out eating. It could mean a lot to the server.)

Tips are typically shared with the kitchen as I understand

Typically, you'd be wrong. Depends on the restaurant, but I've had three server jobs and there was no sharing.
posted by gtr at 6:30 PM on May 13, 2006

Depends on the restaurant, but I've had three server jobs and there was no sharing.

No sharing with the kitchen, or no sharing with anyone? I was under the impression that the busboys (and bartender, if applicable) were usually tipped out.
posted by trevyn at 6:48 PM on May 13, 2006

No. I was never tipped out as a busboy, barback, or server. If you've never worked a restaurant job, why try to correct someone who has? And now another?
posted by kcm at 7:06 PM on May 13, 2006

Usually, these errors are the kitchen's fault — and if you can't tell otherwise, that's a safe assumption. In your case, however, it seems obvious that the mistake was at least partly your waitress's fault — in which case I agree with your friends that tipping on the reduced total was correct.
posted by cribcage at 7:15 PM on May 13, 2006

No. I was never tipped out as a busboy, barback, or server.

In that case, I don't understand where this "15% minimum tip" thing is coming from, because if my waiter is keeping all of that, he's making out like a bandit if he has more than one table.
posted by trevyn at 7:22 PM on May 13, 2006

They got paid near $2/hr as grown men.. no benefits, no 401ks, nothing. I was paid $8.50 as a 16 year old. The tips were slightly important to them. Now, back to the relevant discussion.
posted by kcm at 7:40 PM on May 13, 2006

No. I was never tipped out as a busboy, barback, or server. If you've never worked a restaurant job, why try to correct someone who has? And now another?
posted by kcm at 10:06 PM

Sucks for you, but many restaurants do. I know a few friends offhand who were busboys at one point and mentioned the fact they got tipped out.
posted by rob paxon at 7:42 PM on May 13, 2006

As interesting as a Seinfeld-esque debate this is, go with your gut and damn the torpedoes. Unless you're eating at Planet Hollywood, we are talking about an inconsequential amount of money and not the type that adds up, because this can't be an all-too-common occurence for the waitress. Also, we're discussing a matter of unwritten etiquette, not legal precedence. As far as I see it, regularly doling out a sturdy 15% is silly. The figure should be influenced by how well you were waited on, as well as the overall experience. Tip whatever the hell you want. P.S. Thread = LOL.
posted by rob paxon at 7:43 PM on May 13, 2006

worked at a couple bars where barbacks rec'd 25% of bartenders tips and, one place where there was food involved, 5% of waitresses' tips.
posted by chelseagirl at 7:46 PM on May 13, 2006

Tip on the pre-comp total.

My restaurant includes comps in my total sales--so I tip out 3% of my gross sales, whether I get tipped on all that money or not, and it's reported to the IRS that my sales include that, so they assume (and I'm required to report) tips based on those sales as income, again, whether or not I make any tips. The dollar or so I might make off a burger might make a huge difference when it's time to pay my rent or my day care, and generally won't make a difference to the customer. If you feel she'd truly done a bad job, then reduce the percentage (but still tip on the total), but remember, even if she should've caught on that it was taking too long, she was very unlikely to have been the one directly responsible for having overcooked the thing--a cook is still supposed to know when to take it off, and the waitress likely just realized it had been too long.
posted by Cricket at 7:47 PM on May 13, 2006

No. I was never tipped out as a busboy, barback, or server. If you've never worked a restaurant job, why try to correct someone who has? And now another?
posted by kcm at 10:06 PM

In the restaurants that I worked at, sharing tips was never an issue. We didn't have to tip out, as a rule.

However, if you wanted your food fast, your tables bussed quickly, and your drinks made first - you tipped out. The smart servers caught on quickly.
posted by bradth27 at 7:49 PM on May 13, 2006

Tips are interesting in that it usually takes just a couple dollars (maybe even one dollar) to be generous to someone. I also say lean to the generous side. It's good form that comes back to you in some way.
posted by dog food sugar at 7:57 PM on May 13, 2006

because this can't be an all-too-common occurence for the waitress.

You'd be amazed at what some people demand comps for. In some, particularly chain, places, they get them, almost always--sometimes twice (OK, here's your dinner free and a comp certificate for your next visit). Most have nothing to do with the waitstaff. Most still cause the waitstaff to lose tips.

Trevyn, at some places, waitstaff do make out like bandits. At many, we don't have more than a couple tables at a time, sometimes only a couple all night on weeknights, or we have tables that only come in for coffee and salads. And good waitstaff keep up the level of service whether they expect $50 or nothing at all from a table, and pray that they'll make enough to pay the bills and feed their kids or pay their tuition (many of us are in the business because it's on average the best money we can make and stay flexible for our school or family schedules, but some weeks we'd make more at Wal-Mart).
posted by Cricket at 8:00 PM on May 13, 2006

No. I was never tipped out as a busboy, barback, or server. If you've never worked a restaurant job, why try to correct someone who has? And now another?

You got a raw deal then. When I worked as a service bartender, it was standard policy for the waitresses to divvy out some of their tips to me and the bus-boys. When I did bartending for receptions or weddings, I always tipped out the servers and the busboys. It's was standard operating proceedure everywhere I worked...
posted by SweetJesus at 8:26 PM on May 13, 2006

I thought we've gotten over tipping as a reward system on AskMeFi?

I'm trying to find one of the bigger threads in which people basically realized that the whole idea behind tipping has become outdated and unfair. Here's a good comment from Civil_Disobedient from another thread.

Essentially, most waiters are legally paid way below minimum wage. Whether you like it or not, tips bring their pay back up to a liveable salary. Considering how hard waiting tables for a living can be, how the job is sometimes the server's second (or third), and how so many who find themselves in that position are in a real financial bind, is your infrequently refilled glass of lemon water really that big of a deal?

Of course, bad service doesn't have to be tolerated, but just tell a manager on the way out. If that server has problems consistently, he or she will be fired. People have bad days, restaurants get busy, and orders get screwed up.

As fun as it can be to judge someone's performance and calculate a reward or penalty based on an intricate scale of speed, smiles, and efficiency, what gives you the right to determine some poor single mother's salary?

(sorry for being dramatic, some people can sound so cold making sport out of applying percentages to people)
posted by themadjuggler at 8:34 PM on May 13, 2006

Tip the larger amount. If tipping bothers you, eat at home.
posted by semmi at 8:40 PM on May 13, 2006

I err in being generous; I agree that they're quibbling over a minute difference in tip. Most of it wasn't her fault and she tried to correct it. It's a tough job and when I was on the other side of the table I made plenty of mistakes myself.

(We had to tip out 10% to the bartender and 15% to the bussers at the restaurant I worked at.)
posted by Melinika at 8:41 PM on May 13, 2006

I usually tip 15-20%. In this situation, for me, it would all be about whether or not I blamed the waitress for the problem. If it really was the kitchen's fault, then she did what she could (I guess...why didn't she just go back in and tell them to make a medium burger?). If I thought it was her fault, then her tip would suffer.

I think that in general I'm a very generous tipper, and I have worked in a restaurant (and at a bunch of other service-industry jobs), but if I get truly deplorable service, I am not afraid to leave absolutely nothing. In fact, I once left a penny, just to make sure the waitress didn't think that I made a mistake and forgot.
posted by bingo at 8:48 PM on May 13, 2006

As a former (and probably future, sadly) server, I also agree that you should err on the side of generosity and tip on the original bill.

When you're waiting tables you generally have five billions things to keep track of - ten billion on a really busy night - and thus you rely very much on the kitchen and the busboys, and whoever else is on staff, to maintain enough harmony that you can keep to something resembling a routine. Otherwise, you would go completely insane. The smallest mistake on the part of the kitchen can COMPLETELY throw you off. Added to the normal to-do list of "drinks for table 17, bread board for table 16, print out check for table 14, more napkins for table 12," an oddball detour like "get 15 a new hamburger" can easily slip your mind, despite your best intentions - especially since in your normal thought routine, table 15 has already gotten their food, and thus the next item on the list is "ask if the food is okay," not "pick up new hamburger from kitchen."

I mean it when I say "despite your best intentions..." It's not like servers purposefully fuck up. It's not like they want a crappy tip. Hence the "oh shit!" face, with which I am totally and completely familiar. When I'm waiting tables I know my wages depend on the assessment a customer has made of my entire performance, and I'm there in the first place to fucking make money. Thus, when I screw up my stomach just drops, because now not only do I have to gamble on a customer's arbitrary judgment, I also have to gamble on the extent of their understanding and generosity.

And, of course, my performance isn't really "my" performance - it's a result of all the staff working together. I'm just the face of it, and the one who gets blamed when something goes wrong, even if it's not my fault. And yes, at my restaurant we had to tip out the busboys and the bartender 3% of our total sales, no matter how much we made in tips.

And then she got the hamburger taken off your bill, which is actually adding yet ANOTHER oddball detour to her mental to-do list, possibly gambling on throwing herself off more and screwing up another order. I don't know about this restaurant, but at mine, only the manager could remove something from the bill, and so I'd have to go to the back where he was probably watching a basketball game, explain the situation, drag him to the front, punch the code into the computer...

Anyway, the point of this very long rant (huff huff huff) is this: What was originally the kitchen's mistake caused her more stress and more work than normal. She'll likely have forgotten the specific incident by next week, but that night getting a lower tip for something that really wasn't her fault will be a tap on the old heart. Over time such petty incidents will accumulate into an overwhelming sense of helplessness, suspicion of one's fellow man, mental disintegration, paranoia, and PTSD-like flashbacks and nightmares, finally resulting in long borderline-incoherent rants on internet message boards. And you, yes you, can prevent a young woman's descent into madness by adding an extra dollar to your tip. Do you really want this on your conscience? I think not.
posted by granted at 9:19 PM on May 13, 2006

I know nothing about how restaurants work and live in a country where waiters are paid a decent wage not including tips. The bit I don't understand is how the second burger thing was her fault and why she had to sprint off.

Surely it's not her job to get it off the grill in time so that it's medium? That's the kitchen's job, isn't it? If she forgot the burger the second time, it should have been medium, but cold. Or are we assuming that, both times, she told the kitchen the wrong thing?

But anyway. Of course you shouldn't penalise her if the burger got taken off the bill (on her initiative, right?) and you shouldn't be fussing over the couple of dollars this seems to add up to, unless the opportunity to punish waitstaff is a key part of the fine dining experience for you.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 10:46 PM on May 13, 2006

I had pretty much the same discussion with my girlfriend last week. I sent back my main course (completely fouled by awful mix-packet gravy) and it was removed from the bill. I wanted to tip based on the price with my meal, but was overruled.

Tipping 10% is never acceptable [in the US].

Is there a law or something?
posted by jaysus chris at 4:35 AM on May 14, 2006

Um, I'm a busboy, and we definitely get tipped out. One of my friends works as a waiter at the same restaurant as me, and tips are his lifeblood--because his tip out is based on the percentage of his sales (sans tips), if he doesn't get enough in tips he'll end up losing money at the end of the night. May the man who stiffs a tip burn a long, long time.

And yeah, your waitress has nothing to do with the kitchen. She tried, give her a good tip.

Tips shouldn't be based on the amount of the bill, the tip should be based on the level of service.

Please, please, please don't do this. If a waiter at a $100/plate restaurant and a waiter at a $10/plate restaurant give you the same level of service, that does not mean you should give the $100/plate waiter the same tip! It's even more likely you'll be screwing the higher-class waiter over, since his actual wages aren't going to be that much higher and he's more likely to need to tip out the bartender, busboys, and whomever else gets tipped out at the fancy place. 15% minimum. Make it possible for your waiter to eat.

And think about it this way: If your food is bad or takes a long time to get to you, it's the kitchen that's the problem (if it's cold, their plate-warming thingy is either broken or the server is slow). So why fuck up the waiter? I mean, no matter how much less you tip, the kitchen is going to get paid the same amount whether they have a flat salary or get tipped out. The only person you're screwing over is your server, and they have no control over how well-done your burger is.
posted by schroedinger at 9:32 AM on May 14, 2006

Tipping 10% is never acceptable [in the US].

Is there a law or something?

I'm sorry, but if you have to ask that... I'm baffled that anyone would think 10% were acceptable for a waitress that only made one innocent mistake. Baffled, I say.

But really I just wanted to say "excellent comment" to granted. I strongly agree. Way to answer the question and address the completely RETARDED "why should I tip X%? All they do is bring the food from the kitchen" bullshit in one good comment.

Unfortunately, granted, I'm totally convinced that there are many people who actually get off on thinking the waitstaff will remember them and their shitty tips as part of their collective waiting tables PTSD. They just love to exert that financial power over another person where they can. It's so petty and childish and screwed up.

Of course, this will always be a contentious and unsolvable issue. Those who haven't waited tables will never know what it's like...[insert long tirade about the billions of things a waiter has to deal with that the customer doesn't see]...they won't understand not just because they haven't done it, but because they've never HAD to do it.

I myself welcome the day that waiters start making a living wage, people don't have to tip 15% anymore, but restaurant prices go up 25%, and they start getting the minimal level of service just to keep the waiter from being fired. Alternately, the day others' salary goes down in tiny increments every time they make an innocent mistake...print on letterhead by accident, order the wrong part, return circulating paperwork one day later than the cover memo says....
posted by lampoil at 1:09 PM on May 14, 2006

I will now take the chance to seize the podium, and as an empathetic and rational human being who has dined and served in restaurants, declare my opinion to be the last word in approaching this topic:

It doesn't matter. As one person pointed out, its only $1.50, and that will not make or break the evening for that particular server. I think the scenarios speculating that a server will not be able to pay their rent because of things like this to be far-fetched, to say the least.

If you are practically pulling out a calculator to calculate exactly 15% for a tip, but still tip for comped items, you are a stingy tipper. If you generally pay 25% (or more) but refuse to pay a tip on a comped item, you are a generous tipper. Your total inclination to tip generously or not over the long run is what is important.*

If you are generally a good tipper, there is no need to feel guilty about a tip that reflects the experience of the evening (or to lay a guilt trip on your friends over it. Why let a disagreement about tipping derail what was otherwise a good meal with close friends? (unless, their tipping is habitually bad, or they are of a constitutionally ungenerous nature, in which case, I would suspect they would not be your friends.)

* -- provided your strategy is not incredibly unfair in the short term, like, say, flipping a coin to determine whether you tip 0% or 50% on a particular check.
posted by Maxwell_Smart at 1:17 PM on May 14, 2006

See, this is one major problem with service in the US. In Europe you wouldn't even calculate it down to percent. You'd get a bill for '37' and just round it up to '40'.. or round up '13' to '15'.. or whatever. Tips are just something you add on top as and when you want to, rather than some dumb strictly 20% tax on a fixed amount. It's nuts, I've seen people in the US use calculators to work out percentages to the cent! Nuts!
posted by wackybrit at 2:48 PM on May 14, 2006

I'm quite fascinated by how much this thread is about America. It's seems to have all the themes, like Big Government versus small, free markets versus regulation, meritocracy versus socialism and so on, particularly for the people from other countries where restaurant staff aren't so reliant on tips.

The system is quite transparent, although people don't all see to know, or agree on, the exact rules.

If you get good service, you tip more, and if you get bad service you tip less. Waiters are paid low wages to help motivate them to give good service. Good waiters will thrive and bad ones choose another profession. The team of busboys and ancillary staff share in the tips at least some of the time, which helps the waiters get feedback on their performance from more than one source and helps them improve, and so on and so on.

But I'm reminded of someone's dictum on the stock exchange. All the rules and procedures are transparent there too, he said "...which is why the trading floor is always such a calm and peaceful place".

Despite the fact that the U.S. system seems like a logical, self-regulating one which would tend toward happy customers and well-paid waiters, all we hear about in this thread and the other is "the violence inherent in the system".

Obviously this apparently logical system breaks down quite often and creates and lot of pain and anguish for the participants.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 4:15 PM on May 14, 2006

First off, well said granted.

AmbroseChapel:
The bit I don't understand is how the second burger thing was her fault and why she had to sprint off.

I can imagine one reasonable scenario that could explain this: the first burger was rejected in a manner that left the waitress saying to herself, "what a whiney jerk" and not "I gotta go talk to the kitchen about this and get it fixed NOW." And then the waitress was distracted and forgot to put in the re-order with the kitchen because it was something out of the ordinary service routine. When asked the first time, the waitress said, "It's on the grill" meaning "I'll get on that but blame the kitchen until I can get it to you, you whiney jerk." When asked the second time, she finally did something about it and went to the kitchen and took a burger intended for another order that was over-cooked, pushing the delivery of another table's food back a minute or two. (This happened to me a few times when I waited tables, but I was quite bad at the job.)

This scenario is a counterexample to the prevailing opinion here that the waitress was not at fault in this mishap. However I agree with the idea that it's not so much her fault and you should tip on the cost of the bill before the comp (imagine if the entire meal is comped, do you not tip at all?).

And finally, having worked in a burger place, what fire&wings says bears repeating: I probably wouldn't eat with anyone who complains over how a hamburger is cooked.
posted by peeedro at 8:39 PM on May 14, 2006

Tipping 10% is never acceptable [in the US].

Is there a law or something?

I'm sorry, but if you have to ask that... I'm baffled that anyone would think 10% were acceptable for a waitress that only made one innocent mistake. Baffled, I say.

Just for the sake of posterity, I agree with you completely. In this situation I would have tipped including the price of the bum burger. I thought that was clear from the top half of my comment. But I can think of a number of (rare) situations where a 10% tip is more than acceptable. Unless there's a law or something.
posted by jaysus chris at 9:40 PM on May 14, 2006