Comments on: Help me identify this language

Question: Help me identify this language

molybdenum — Mon, 08 May 2006 21:53:17 -0800

What language is this?

Attention metafilter scholars of Classics, Architecture, Linguistics, Catholic History, and all things old and musty!

Inside Notre Dame de la Garde cathedral in Marseilles are several domes whose circumferences are inscribed with text. At first glance, I assumed the text was in Latin, but there are obviously Greek characters mixed in, as well as some characters I've never seen before. I copied down a portion of it in my notebook when I was there, and tried to recreate it in the picture my link points to (by hand, so there may be some errors).

I've been wondering about this ever since my trip there. Is this some form of church Latin, or are the combined characters just an artistic flourish?

By: oaf

oaf — Mon, 08 May 2006 22:45:21 -0800

Well, the top half is Greek letters, but the bottom half or so appears to say something in Latin.

By: oaf

oaf — Mon, 08 May 2006 23:01:25 -0800

The bottom two lines appear to begin "cui fruct[] e[s]t recordato [???] fœderas".

By: carmina

carmina — Mon, 08 May 2006 23:24:10 -0800

Attention metafilter scholars of Classics, Architecture, Linguistics, Catholic History, and all things old and musty!

I am none of the above, but I am Greek, fwiw. So until the scholars you are appealing to come in to help, I say: indeed the first couple of lines read

ΚΙΒΩΤ[Ο]Σ(=vessel) [ΕΛ?]ΕΥTΕΡΟΥ(=free?) ΚΟΣΜΟΥ(=world) ΣΤΕ[?]ΡΜ[??] ΦΥΛΑTΤΟΥΣ(=guarding) (now in latin characters) ΙRIS

By: robhuddles

robhuddles — Mon, 08 May 2006 23:28:38 -0800

Can you give us some sort of context? Where did this come from?

By: molybdenum

molybdenum — Mon, 08 May 2006 23:51:18 -0800

to robhuddles: the context is in the main question text. It's an inscription in Notre Dame de la Garde cathedral in Marseilles. That's about all I know about it.

to oaf and carmina: thanks! It hadn't occurred to me that it might have started in one language and ended in another, but of course that makes sense. I was further thrown by forgetting that some capital letters in Greek look like Latin characters. :)

Still curious about the combined characters, though.

By: Opposite George

Opposite George — Tue, 09 May 2006 00:32:07 -0800

Not a scholar, but Greek (-American) too! Combined characters and abbreviations are a common feature of Byzantine iconographic calligraphy:
Note the second line on the left across from "David" -- that bunch of squiggles, when you look at it the right way, translates to the Greek word for "Prophet."

There's a bunch on the scroll, too -- Two obvious ones are what looks like an "O" with rabbit ears for the combination "OY" and what looks like an "H" with a hat for the combination "TH." It's kinda like trying to read graffiti under a bridge.

So I'd call the combinations an ecclesiastical artistic flourish -- fitting in the context and evocative of tradition.

By: pompomtom

pompomtom — Tue, 09 May 2006 06:35:59 -0800

My SO is passing this on to her father who, is a professor of classics. If no-one else sorts this out, feel free to email me for a chase-up. She suggests that the combined characters may be corrections or abbreviations.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 09 May 2006 06:47:48 -0800

Corrections?! This isn't a discarded piece of legal-size paper, it's the dome of Notre Dame de la Garde cathedral! As Opposite George says, combined characters are the norm in medieval writing. But I don't think it's decipherable from your transcription; you'll need to find a photograph of it. Did you pick up a souvenir booklet that might have one you could scan?

By: pompomtom

pompomtom — Tue, 09 May 2006 06:52:12 -0800

Just passing on what I received when I passed on the image. Jeez. Personally I'll wait for a translation from the prof.

By: gubo

gubo — Tue, 09 May 2006 06:58:01 -0800

Last three words are perhaps "recordatio divini foederis" (remembrance of the divine covenant) which would refer to the earlier "iris" a rainbow (a reference to Genesis 9:11-17).

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Tue, 09 May 2006 10:41:06 -0800

[OG, I mashed the two posts and included only the imageshack image, lmk if it's ok now]

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Tue, 09 May 2006 11:14:39 -0800

What is that symbol between cui and fruct? I can't for the life of me puzzle that out...

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 09 May 2006 11:38:52 -0800

I suspect it's an abbreviation for the end of cuius, but it's really pointless trying to interpret somebody's hand-drawn reconstruction of an inscription once you get down to details like that.

pompomtom: That wasn't a dig at you, just an expression of surprise at the suggestion. (Which, as you say, didn't come from you.)

By: pompomtom

pompomtom — Tue, 09 May 2006 19:43:49 -0800

Languagehat: apparently errors in carvings can be found in St Peter's, so I'm guessing they aren't that uncommon in expensive carvings.

Anyway, the word from the Prof is:

On The first half of the text is Greek; the 2nd half Latin. It is abbreviated and I suspect some of the the abbreviations haven't been copied.

The Greek transliterated is: Kibot{o}s euergou kosmou sterm phylatous. There is something wrong or missing in each of the last 2 words. Literal trans of first 3 Greek words is: Box (or ark or covenant) of well-made world (or 'doing good world'). Next word is perhaps 2 words, {e}st{i} Erm{es} = 'Hermes [= a messenger] is'; last word has something to do with 'tribes' or 'people' (phyl), possibly 'of the same people' or 'driving the people' unless there's a 'k' missing (phylaktous), making it 'those who preserve' and nothing to do with tribes/people. [The combination 'sterm' doesn't exist in Greek, which is why I suspect it is 2 words or copied wrongly].

So perhaps: "The ark of the well-made world is the messenger for the people". But I think this unlikely.

Latin: Iris cui{que} fruct{us} est recordato ??Domini foederis . Guess translation : Iris [= a messenger] is [i.e. 'exists'] for each person {who has} recorded the fruits/enjoyment of the Lord's covenant/treaty.
I've used curly brackets { } to supply missing letters.

What all this actually means I haven't a clue.