How do I deal with a codependent mom who has a belligerent husband?
May 21, 2023 4:24 PM Subscribe
My mother is deeply codependent, in deep denial, and married to a belligerent man who is drunk every time we visit, dominates the conversation, and injects divisive politics into everything. We just had our umpteenth disastrous visit together, full of bad blood. Is there a reasonable way forward in family situations like this without cutting anyone off?
Everyone knows my mom as an outgoing and (almost saccharine-ly) sweet person who is very good with people and makes friends easily. She is very conflict-averse and can rationalize anything just to make everything seem cheerful. Growing up, we were raised to have manners and social skills and she did not seem to really have any core politics.
About 20 years ago, she married a man who is like a wounded animal. The only conversational style he understands is to speak like he's lecturing at a podium. I believe not going to college gave him a chip on his shoulder. After 9/11 and the Iraq War he got even more entrenched in his politics (and she parrots everything he says now) and it has completely turned my sister and I off to most of what he says. In his retirement, he basically just sits on the internet and marinates in left vs. right culture war politics, but has no friends to talk to about it, so it seems like it all comes out during family visits.
I am not opposed to speaking with people I don't agree with. But there always seems to be alcohol in the situation too which makes him belligerent, condescending, and slurring his words. Probably 10 times at this point, a "normal visit" has devolved into very bad vibes yet he never thinks he's done anything wrong and has never apologized or shown humility whatsoever.
I have pointed out to my mom repeatedly about his tone and his drinking and she says "he's not an alcoholic, it's just 'those martinis' that he likes to drink" as though it would be a different scenario if he was drinking beer or something. When confronted, she is a total deer in the headlights and almost childlike, totally unable to connect the dots to the codependence, drinking, and frustratingly dishonest rationalizations she makes for his behavior.
The complicated part is that I went through a tough time the last few years and she has been absolutely indispensible in terms of support and willingness to talk about my problems over the phone—very generous in that regard and I feel a lot of gratitude about it.
So I visited them this past week for the first time in years (I have avoided a visit because of all the blowups), traveled a great distance to get there, spent a lot of money, brought mother's day gifts, and bought them dinner. Over the course of the three hours together, he drank martini after martini, dominated the conversation, slurred his words, acted like a total creep to the waitress, and only asked me questions about Culture War crap (crime in NYC, Elon Musk, whatever) instead of like "So how have you been the last five years?" When I answered the political questions honestly (not raising my voice), he lit into me angrily in a way you would with your worst enemy.
I spoke to my mom 1:1 the next day and told her how awful he'd acted. It was almost like trying to deprogram someone who's in a cult. I could slowly see a faint lightbulb appear over her head once or twice where she connected the dots about why our family is so wary of him and why everything has been so screwed up the last 20 years. But we have had this convesation umpeteen times, almost identically word for word. I am back home now and just feel very numb and depressed.
What works in this situation, beyond just telling them both I've had enough and the situation isn't sustainable? (BTW my sister and I offered to meet them for family therapy a year ago. When he found out they'd be expected to split the cost, he blew up and sent a really hostile email cc'ing the whole family, so therapy seems out the window).
Thanks for any advice.
Everyone knows my mom as an outgoing and (almost saccharine-ly) sweet person who is very good with people and makes friends easily. She is very conflict-averse and can rationalize anything just to make everything seem cheerful. Growing up, we were raised to have manners and social skills and she did not seem to really have any core politics.
About 20 years ago, she married a man who is like a wounded animal. The only conversational style he understands is to speak like he's lecturing at a podium. I believe not going to college gave him a chip on his shoulder. After 9/11 and the Iraq War he got even more entrenched in his politics (and she parrots everything he says now) and it has completely turned my sister and I off to most of what he says. In his retirement, he basically just sits on the internet and marinates in left vs. right culture war politics, but has no friends to talk to about it, so it seems like it all comes out during family visits.
I am not opposed to speaking with people I don't agree with. But there always seems to be alcohol in the situation too which makes him belligerent, condescending, and slurring his words. Probably 10 times at this point, a "normal visit" has devolved into very bad vibes yet he never thinks he's done anything wrong and has never apologized or shown humility whatsoever.
I have pointed out to my mom repeatedly about his tone and his drinking and she says "he's not an alcoholic, it's just 'those martinis' that he likes to drink" as though it would be a different scenario if he was drinking beer or something. When confronted, she is a total deer in the headlights and almost childlike, totally unable to connect the dots to the codependence, drinking, and frustratingly dishonest rationalizations she makes for his behavior.
The complicated part is that I went through a tough time the last few years and she has been absolutely indispensible in terms of support and willingness to talk about my problems over the phone—very generous in that regard and I feel a lot of gratitude about it.
So I visited them this past week for the first time in years (I have avoided a visit because of all the blowups), traveled a great distance to get there, spent a lot of money, brought mother's day gifts, and bought them dinner. Over the course of the three hours together, he drank martini after martini, dominated the conversation, slurred his words, acted like a total creep to the waitress, and only asked me questions about Culture War crap (crime in NYC, Elon Musk, whatever) instead of like "So how have you been the last five years?" When I answered the political questions honestly (not raising my voice), he lit into me angrily in a way you would with your worst enemy.
I spoke to my mom 1:1 the next day and told her how awful he'd acted. It was almost like trying to deprogram someone who's in a cult. I could slowly see a faint lightbulb appear over her head once or twice where she connected the dots about why our family is so wary of him and why everything has been so screwed up the last 20 years. But we have had this convesation umpeteen times, almost identically word for word. I am back home now and just feel very numb and depressed.
What works in this situation, beyond just telling them both I've had enough and the situation isn't sustainable? (BTW my sister and I offered to meet them for family therapy a year ago. When he found out they'd be expected to split the cost, he blew up and sent a really hostile email cc'ing the whole family, so therapy seems out the window).
Thanks for any advice.
Ugh. I'm sorry you've had a rough time and now, this. If you say he behaves badly, she'll defend him. Instead, try It's difficult to be around him. His behavior makes me uncomfortable. I want to visit you and enjoy time together, but that is not happening. Is he less awful in the morning or early afternoon? Can you go to a park for a walk, a museum, concert, or any activity without a bar?
Within the existing reality, can you say what you want? Mom, could you visit us without Husband? Can we go to lunch someplace without a bar? I love you, I want to spend time with, but Husband's behavior makes me miserable.
I had an alcoholic parent who never really stopped drinking. There are groups - Adult Children of Alcoholics and probably others - that helped me cope. As a parent, it's hard to see your kid make bad choices. As a kid, it's hard to see your parent make bad choices. You can change what you accept form someone. You can change the circumstances. Changing other people, esp. addicts, is rare.
posted by theora55 at 5:27 PM on May 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Within the existing reality, can you say what you want? Mom, could you visit us without Husband? Can we go to lunch someplace without a bar? I love you, I want to spend time with, but Husband's behavior makes me miserable.
I had an alcoholic parent who never really stopped drinking. There are groups - Adult Children of Alcoholics and probably others - that helped me cope. As a parent, it's hard to see your kid make bad choices. As a kid, it's hard to see your parent make bad choices. You can change what you accept form someone. You can change the circumstances. Changing other people, esp. addicts, is rare.
posted by theora55 at 5:27 PM on May 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think you'll find it less frustrating (though probably still pretty frustrating) if instead of trying to get your mom to agree to certain (obvious) things, you focused on some core parts of your subjective experiences:
"I don't like to be around Jeff when he's drunk." It's often not fun to be around drunk people regardless of how belligerent they are, or what their overall relationship with alcohol is. This is a perfectly reasonable stance, even if your mom doesn't mind being around him when he's drunk.
"I don't like the way Jeff steers conversations into debates about his preferred topics." Even if you mom thinks he's "just passionate" or "loves to play devil's advocate," and can't face that he's harassing you, you can focus on the fact that you're not interested in debating at the dinner table. Consider how deeply weird it would be if your mom expected you to engage in conversations about recipes after you'd said, "I don't want to talk about cooking."
"I don't like the way Jeff talks to me when he disagrees with me about something." You get to draw the line as far as how you'll be spoken to. It doesn't matter if your mom thinks you're overreacting. If she says you're being too sensitive, roll with it: "You're less sensitive about this than I am. I'm not interested in toughening myself up about this."
It's tempting to act a little codependent to try to help someone with their codependence, but you can't make your mom see what she's in denial about. If your mom says, "Jeff just likes his martinis, and you know, sometimes he can get a little carried away..." it may be really tempting to focus on getting her to see that Jeff seems to have a real problem with alcohol and acts belligerent and mean when drunk. But actually, if you say, "I just don't like being around him when he's drunk," that sets you up for non-codependent behavior--take them out for breakfast, not dinner; if you're together in the evening and he starts drinking, leave; etc. Likewise, if your mom says, "He just likes to play devil's advocate..." it may be really tempting to try to get her to see what a mean, hostile jerk he is. But actually, "I just don't like talking about those topics with him" sets you up for non-codependent behavior--in the moment, "Jeff, I'm not interested in that topic"; plan activities that lend themselves to conversations afterward (see a movie? go to a museum?); etc.
posted by theotherdurassister at 5:45 PM on May 21, 2023 [15 favorites]
"I don't like to be around Jeff when he's drunk." It's often not fun to be around drunk people regardless of how belligerent they are, or what their overall relationship with alcohol is. This is a perfectly reasonable stance, even if your mom doesn't mind being around him when he's drunk.
"I don't like the way Jeff steers conversations into debates about his preferred topics." Even if you mom thinks he's "just passionate" or "loves to play devil's advocate," and can't face that he's harassing you, you can focus on the fact that you're not interested in debating at the dinner table. Consider how deeply weird it would be if your mom expected you to engage in conversations about recipes after you'd said, "I don't want to talk about cooking."
"I don't like the way Jeff talks to me when he disagrees with me about something." You get to draw the line as far as how you'll be spoken to. It doesn't matter if your mom thinks you're overreacting. If she says you're being too sensitive, roll with it: "You're less sensitive about this than I am. I'm not interested in toughening myself up about this."
It's tempting to act a little codependent to try to help someone with their codependence, but you can't make your mom see what she's in denial about. If your mom says, "Jeff just likes his martinis, and you know, sometimes he can get a little carried away..." it may be really tempting to focus on getting her to see that Jeff seems to have a real problem with alcohol and acts belligerent and mean when drunk. But actually, if you say, "I just don't like being around him when he's drunk," that sets you up for non-codependent behavior--take them out for breakfast, not dinner; if you're together in the evening and he starts drinking, leave; etc. Likewise, if your mom says, "He just likes to play devil's advocate..." it may be really tempting to try to get her to see what a mean, hostile jerk he is. But actually, "I just don't like talking about those topics with him" sets you up for non-codependent behavior--in the moment, "Jeff, I'm not interested in that topic"; plan activities that lend themselves to conversations afterward (see a movie? go to a museum?); etc.
posted by theotherdurassister at 5:45 PM on May 21, 2023 [15 favorites]
Your mother has a deep commitment to this marriage. When you try to talk to her, she is much more likely to need to defend her partner (and her life choices) than to suddenly realize that her husband is an alcoholic jerk. So, my first advice is to really stop trying to get her to see and agree that his behavior is problematic. You've tried. It hasn't worked.
So that leaves you focused on what is in your control.
First, your mother is lovely when it is just the two of you. Can you work hard to finding more options for doing things with her that don't include her husband? I know you have to travel to spend time with her, but once there, try to plan a whole bunch of time out of the house with just her.
Second, if you have any control over the setting, you can try to maybe find venues that don't include alcohol - although you may find that her husband will effectively squash those options.
Third and most importantly, you can focus on what is under your own control. You can choose whether you engage in certain conversations or stay quiet/change topics or just leave. Theotherdurassister has some examples for what that might look like.
But I think the really hard part is that you need to let go of trying to save your mother or even trying to get your mother to see what is right in front of her face. She loves him, in her own way, she is committed to relationship and all you can do is to give her all of the love you can and wait to see if she ever signals that she, herself, might be willing to see what is going on.
posted by metahawk at 6:51 PM on May 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
So that leaves you focused on what is in your control.
First, your mother is lovely when it is just the two of you. Can you work hard to finding more options for doing things with her that don't include her husband? I know you have to travel to spend time with her, but once there, try to plan a whole bunch of time out of the house with just her.
Second, if you have any control over the setting, you can try to maybe find venues that don't include alcohol - although you may find that her husband will effectively squash those options.
Third and most importantly, you can focus on what is under your own control. You can choose whether you engage in certain conversations or stay quiet/change topics or just leave. Theotherdurassister has some examples for what that might look like.
But I think the really hard part is that you need to let go of trying to save your mother or even trying to get your mother to see what is right in front of her face. She loves him, in her own way, she is committed to relationship and all you can do is to give her all of the love you can and wait to see if she ever signals that she, herself, might be willing to see what is going on.
posted by metahawk at 6:51 PM on May 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
What works in this situation is adapting your own behaviour on the basis of your own lived experience.
I visited them this past week for the first time in years (I have avoided a visit because of all the blowups), traveled a great distance to get there, spent a lot of money, brought mother's day gifts, and bought them dinner.
The result was shitty, so don't do that again.
If your mother ever asks you why you've turned down an invitation to visit, you can tell her how long it took you to get over the mental injury you took during the last one, and that although you love her dearly you're just not going to walk straight into that much injury again.
Unless and until your mother asks you for help extricating herself from the situation she finds herself in, all you need to do is not actively cooperate in the creation of situations where you feel constrained to remaining in the same room as a belligerent drunk actively abusing you.
posted by flabdablet at 1:21 AM on May 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I visited them this past week for the first time in years (I have avoided a visit because of all the blowups), traveled a great distance to get there, spent a lot of money, brought mother's day gifts, and bought them dinner.
The result was shitty, so don't do that again.
If your mother ever asks you why you've turned down an invitation to visit, you can tell her how long it took you to get over the mental injury you took during the last one, and that although you love her dearly you're just not going to walk straight into that much injury again.
Unless and until your mother asks you for help extricating herself from the situation she finds herself in, all you need to do is not actively cooperate in the creation of situations where you feel constrained to remaining in the same room as a belligerent drunk actively abusing you.
posted by flabdablet at 1:21 AM on May 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
You can see and speak to your mother without seeing or speaking to your stepfather.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:30 AM on May 22, 2023
posted by DarlingBri at 3:30 AM on May 22, 2023
Response by poster: You can see and speak to your mother without seeing or speaking to your stepfather.
No, I can't. She insists on having everyone together or not at all.
posted by critzer at 6:50 AM on May 22, 2023
No, I can't. She insists on having everyone together or not at all.
posted by critzer at 6:50 AM on May 22, 2023
Okay, that's your mother's choice, but you can decide on your boundaries (aka the things you can choose and control).
- You could choose not to see her in person unless alone, which might mean not seeing her or only talking on the phone. That's a consequence of her choice: she may want everyone together, but she's not entitled to get that if it doesn't work for you.
- You could visit but communicate ahead of time that you will leave if stepdad starts up with his shenanigans, and then do it if he does. That's a consequence of his choice to behave badly, and her choice to enable him.
- You could visit but decide ahead of time how you will engage with your stepdad to maintain your emotional stability: that could be something like the Grey Rock Technique, or strict redirecting to safe topics, doing activities or restricting visits such that they are very time limited or can't involve alcohol (as others suggested) or just ignoring him. This might diffuse the situation at the cost of intimacy, but again, these are consequences! Or he might be a jerk anyway, then you can leave (as the previous suggestion).
Note that this all involves changing your own behaviour, not his or your mom's. It is, quite literally, the only this you can control. You can't change her mind, you've tried! So you have to decide how to relate with her and let her make her own decisions how she relates back. She might make different choices if you make it clear where your boundaries are. She might not, but then at least you get to decide how you're being treated.
Also: I'm sorry, this sucks and can be a lonely process. I share these tips because I've been working on this myself. Therapy to help me clarify what I needed has been helpful, as well as the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.
posted by Paper rabies at 7:41 AM on May 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
- You could choose not to see her in person unless alone, which might mean not seeing her or only talking on the phone. That's a consequence of her choice: she may want everyone together, but she's not entitled to get that if it doesn't work for you.
- You could visit but communicate ahead of time that you will leave if stepdad starts up with his shenanigans, and then do it if he does. That's a consequence of his choice to behave badly, and her choice to enable him.
- You could visit but decide ahead of time how you will engage with your stepdad to maintain your emotional stability: that could be something like the Grey Rock Technique, or strict redirecting to safe topics, doing activities or restricting visits such that they are very time limited or can't involve alcohol (as others suggested) or just ignoring him. This might diffuse the situation at the cost of intimacy, but again, these are consequences! Or he might be a jerk anyway, then you can leave (as the previous suggestion).
Note that this all involves changing your own behaviour, not his or your mom's. It is, quite literally, the only this you can control. You can't change her mind, you've tried! So you have to decide how to relate with her and let her make her own decisions how she relates back. She might make different choices if you make it clear where your boundaries are. She might not, but then at least you get to decide how you're being treated.
Also: I'm sorry, this sucks and can be a lonely process. I share these tips because I've been working on this myself. Therapy to help me clarify what I needed has been helpful, as well as the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.
posted by Paper rabies at 7:41 AM on May 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don’t know how your visits are structured but if you want to keep having them, my suggestions are:
- have your own accommodation and transportation lined up
- only stay until “second martini o’clock” and then head out for your own R&R
- don’t do long boozy meals; if you want an outing opt for a movie or a concert
- invite your mum out early in the day either alone or for something less appealed to the partner (and even if he tags along. It’s not booze o’clock.)
- keep visits short even if it feels like a waste of the trip there
- have decompression time built in to coming home
posted by warriorqueen at 8:01 AM on May 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
- have your own accommodation and transportation lined up
- only stay until “second martini o’clock” and then head out for your own R&R
- don’t do long boozy meals; if you want an outing opt for a movie or a concert
- invite your mum out early in the day either alone or for something less appealed to the partner (and even if he tags along. It’s not booze o’clock.)
- keep visits short even if it feels like a waste of the trip there
- have decompression time built in to coming home
posted by warriorqueen at 8:01 AM on May 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
She insists on having everyone together or not at all.
If you want to continue seeing her in person, and are willing to tolerate being around her husband to do so, I'd strongly encourage you to think about all of the ways you can protect your peace. Warriorqueen's suggestions are great. Staying in a hotel and having a rental car are not rude. Planning solo activities for yourself to break up the visit is not rude. Those are the strategies that will allow you to participate in these visit.
But also, it's ok if you're unable to participate in visits as your mom insists. If you were terribly allergic to cats and your mom would only agree to visit with you at her house where she runs a cat rescue, you would have to decline. Just because you're the one who has to say no doesn't mean you're the one truly setting the terms.
posted by theotherdurassister at 10:30 AM on May 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you want to continue seeing her in person, and are willing to tolerate being around her husband to do so, I'd strongly encourage you to think about all of the ways you can protect your peace. Warriorqueen's suggestions are great. Staying in a hotel and having a rental car are not rude. Planning solo activities for yourself to break up the visit is not rude. Those are the strategies that will allow you to participate in these visit.
But also, it's ok if you're unable to participate in visits as your mom insists. If you were terribly allergic to cats and your mom would only agree to visit with you at her house where she runs a cat rescue, you would have to decline. Just because you're the one who has to say no doesn't mean you're the one truly setting the terms.
posted by theotherdurassister at 10:30 AM on May 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
My stepparent situation is different, but I have left a few visits with my dad and then cried for a few days afterward, sad I haven't been able to spend more time with him over the years (because of conflict in my relationship with her). A few things I have done:
Reduced how much I visit, and how long I spend there when I do visit. Even though they live a great distance away, I still find it's much better to spend only a few days. Last time I went for a total of three nights, I think. I usually don't stay with them, either. That adds to the expense but makes it much easier to retreat when I need.
Reduced my expectations and tried to shift my perspective. My dad does love my stepmom, and they are pretty happy together in many ways. It's been sad but helpful for me to realize that my dad has made these choices, too. It's a lot easier to be mad at the stepparent, but harder to realize that our parents are choosing, for example, not to travel independently to visit us, their kids.
I do try to engage with her on her terms. I talk about things that are of interest to her, and I generally don't share strong opinions where we might have disagreements. I get that you want to answer honestly to his political provocations, but it doesn't seem like that helped anyone have a better time. In your case, I'd suggest interacting with him almost in a customer service way. "Gosh, I'd rather hear about your garden than talk about Elon Musk," etc.
I did have a big cry fest on the phone with my dad a few years ago, and after that, he and she both made a few visits to their own kids without the other. But in general, acknowledging to myself the loss I've felt -- of not really being able to have a close relationship with my dad -- has been helpful for me to grieve.
I also want to point out that it could be that your mom is more conservative than you have realized. It sounds like she didn't discuss politics much at all when you were younger, so this might not be a shift for her. It could be that her not engaging with you on politics is her people pleasing with you.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:24 PM on May 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Reduced how much I visit, and how long I spend there when I do visit. Even though they live a great distance away, I still find it's much better to spend only a few days. Last time I went for a total of three nights, I think. I usually don't stay with them, either. That adds to the expense but makes it much easier to retreat when I need.
Reduced my expectations and tried to shift my perspective. My dad does love my stepmom, and they are pretty happy together in many ways. It's been sad but helpful for me to realize that my dad has made these choices, too. It's a lot easier to be mad at the stepparent, but harder to realize that our parents are choosing, for example, not to travel independently to visit us, their kids.
I do try to engage with her on her terms. I talk about things that are of interest to her, and I generally don't share strong opinions where we might have disagreements. I get that you want to answer honestly to his political provocations, but it doesn't seem like that helped anyone have a better time. In your case, I'd suggest interacting with him almost in a customer service way. "Gosh, I'd rather hear about your garden than talk about Elon Musk," etc.
I did have a big cry fest on the phone with my dad a few years ago, and after that, he and she both made a few visits to their own kids without the other. But in general, acknowledging to myself the loss I've felt -- of not really being able to have a close relationship with my dad -- has been helpful for me to grieve.
I also want to point out that it could be that your mom is more conservative than you have realized. It sounds like she didn't discuss politics much at all when you were younger, so this might not be a shift for her. It could be that her not engaging with you on politics is her people pleasing with you.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:24 PM on May 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
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This jumped out at me: But we have had this conversation umpeteen times, almost identically word for word.
It sounds like you are waiting for your mom to “see the light” and then make changes to her relationship to her husband and ultimately that will make you comfortable with visiting.
This isn’t going to work - and the fact that you’ve had the conversation umpteen times kind of shows you already that it won’t. Your mom is in this bad relationship for reasons that she alone knows - and maybe even she doesn’t know, at the moment. Untangling that is her work, not yours, and chances are will take a lot of time to untangle to the point where she feels emotionally safe enough to take steps - if she ever does.
You can, however, tell her how uncomfortable her husband’s drinking and behavior make you feel — you probably should avoid words like “alcoholic “ since that’s an opinion l but you can talk about the anger and slurring and impolite behavior to waitstaff etc. Let her know you love her. Let her know you WANT to spend time with her. And then say that because of YOUR discomfort with the husband, you’d love to have her visit where you are, without him, or if you come to visit again, you will do so only if she is ok with only doing mother-daughter activities that do not include him.
I imagine it’s going to be hard for mm to hear how deeply you feel about her spouse, and I imagine she will have a lot of hard decisions to make. Give her time - months - to process, and I’d say saying it once and only once is best, unless she brings it up again. I wish you the best.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:48 PM on May 21, 2023 [10 favorites]