how to make positive, supportive conversation
May 15, 2023 4:29 PM Subscribe
I am noticing (through ongoing therapy, medication, meditation, and more--these types of general, adjacent advice aren't helpful for this question) that friendly conversation skills like responding positively, giving compliments, and offering support do not come naturally to me. When I try, I come off as fake or sarcastic or hinting at god-knows-what.
What does come naturally in conversation is pointing out interesting details (can be perceived as judgment of those details and/or ignoring big picture), making puns and jokes (I stifle 90 percent or more of these, if there is the remotest chance of offense), and sharing relevant information (can be perceived as know-it-all, unsolicited advice, making it about me if the info is an anecdote from my experience).
Therapy has turned on a lightbulb. This is the way my parents parented me. They pointed out things about me, accompanied by praise or criticism (I felt scrutinized more than seen), they made up puns and songs (sometimes this was fun, and sometimes I felt they weren't taking me seriously), and they informed me of "how the world is" and expected "obedience" (chicken or egg with my demand avoidance). The Emotionally Immature Parents material feels right on target in these and many other ways. And also, I know the intent was often loving as best they could--I see a lot of undiagnosed neurodivergence in them and me.
So the problem as I try to be more aware of not repeating those patterns in my social interactions is that my brain likes to follow examples and apply rules.
"Be positive and supportive" or "be kind" is too vague to help me know what to say.
The puns and jokes that immediately come to mind as positive and fun have to be actively resisted, and that slows down my response. Sometimes that delay, and my carefully not saying the first thing that comes to mind is perceptible and whatever I say next is seen as guarded and insincere.
Scripts help when a friend is venting to me. "That's sounds tough" or "Do you want me to listen, or do you want advice?" or "How can I support you?" go over well.
But in positive, fun situations, the scripts I have don't work so well.
For example, someone at work asks about my weekend ("not bad, how about yours") and tells me they spent their weekend mowing the lawn and hanging by the pool. Positive comments like "Cool!" or "Nice!" or "Awesome!" come off as sarcastic with my flat affect. And it's hard not to sound fake when lawnmowing and poolhanging are things I sincerely don't enjoy. Showing interest by asking about a detail ("chlorine or saltwater pool?") is seen as weird or intrusive. ("Why do you ask? Are you thinking of getting a pool?" "...no, just curious [mortified]...")
Or in a friend situation, say they are doing something exciting like getting married or starting their dream job. "Congratulations! I'm so happy for you!" comes off as fake because of my flat affect. Even if I really am sincerely happy for them. "He's a great guy!" or "That company is lucky to have you!" sounds like I'm giving my stamp of approval on the groom or the employer which is not my place. "How did you meet?" or "When do you start?" work ok as questions, but how do I respond to the answer? My responses to "we met online" or "next Tuesday" sound fake ("cool!") or weird, intrusive, or judgy (further questions), when I'm demonstrating interest and trying to let my friend talk. I've tried the therapist style questions like "how do you feel about that?" or "tell me more" and it doesn't work: "you sound like my therapist!" or "what do you want to know?" People have thought I was trying to wangle an invitation/wedding party/maid of honor situation, or hint at asking for help getting a job in the same company, when that was never at all a thing I would want.
Obvs my best friends are conversational weirdos like me who expect and appreciate puns, weird noises, inside jokes, and nonsequitur movie quotes in response to happy news. They tell me bluntly if I don't sound enthusiastic, and take me at my word if I say I really am. These are rare jewels. I'm asking more about acquaintance-friends.
Recommendations of books, articles, videos, or steps you've taken to improve this would help. Thanks for being a sounding board!
What does come naturally in conversation is pointing out interesting details (can be perceived as judgment of those details and/or ignoring big picture), making puns and jokes (I stifle 90 percent or more of these, if there is the remotest chance of offense), and sharing relevant information (can be perceived as know-it-all, unsolicited advice, making it about me if the info is an anecdote from my experience).
Therapy has turned on a lightbulb. This is the way my parents parented me. They pointed out things about me, accompanied by praise or criticism (I felt scrutinized more than seen), they made up puns and songs (sometimes this was fun, and sometimes I felt they weren't taking me seriously), and they informed me of "how the world is" and expected "obedience" (chicken or egg with my demand avoidance). The Emotionally Immature Parents material feels right on target in these and many other ways. And also, I know the intent was often loving as best they could--I see a lot of undiagnosed neurodivergence in them and me.
So the problem as I try to be more aware of not repeating those patterns in my social interactions is that my brain likes to follow examples and apply rules.
"Be positive and supportive" or "be kind" is too vague to help me know what to say.
The puns and jokes that immediately come to mind as positive and fun have to be actively resisted, and that slows down my response. Sometimes that delay, and my carefully not saying the first thing that comes to mind is perceptible and whatever I say next is seen as guarded and insincere.
Scripts help when a friend is venting to me. "That's sounds tough" or "Do you want me to listen, or do you want advice?" or "How can I support you?" go over well.
But in positive, fun situations, the scripts I have don't work so well.
For example, someone at work asks about my weekend ("not bad, how about yours") and tells me they spent their weekend mowing the lawn and hanging by the pool. Positive comments like "Cool!" or "Nice!" or "Awesome!" come off as sarcastic with my flat affect. And it's hard not to sound fake when lawnmowing and poolhanging are things I sincerely don't enjoy. Showing interest by asking about a detail ("chlorine or saltwater pool?") is seen as weird or intrusive. ("Why do you ask? Are you thinking of getting a pool?" "...no, just curious [mortified]...")
Or in a friend situation, say they are doing something exciting like getting married or starting their dream job. "Congratulations! I'm so happy for you!" comes off as fake because of my flat affect. Even if I really am sincerely happy for them. "He's a great guy!" or "That company is lucky to have you!" sounds like I'm giving my stamp of approval on the groom or the employer which is not my place. "How did you meet?" or "When do you start?" work ok as questions, but how do I respond to the answer? My responses to "we met online" or "next Tuesday" sound fake ("cool!") or weird, intrusive, or judgy (further questions), when I'm demonstrating interest and trying to let my friend talk. I've tried the therapist style questions like "how do you feel about that?" or "tell me more" and it doesn't work: "you sound like my therapist!" or "what do you want to know?" People have thought I was trying to wangle an invitation/wedding party/maid of honor situation, or hint at asking for help getting a job in the same company, when that was never at all a thing I would want.
Obvs my best friends are conversational weirdos like me who expect and appreciate puns, weird noises, inside jokes, and nonsequitur movie quotes in response to happy news. They tell me bluntly if I don't sound enthusiastic, and take me at my word if I say I really am. These are rare jewels. I'm asking more about acquaintance-friends.
Recommendations of books, articles, videos, or steps you've taken to improve this would help. Thanks for being a sounding board!
Best answer: You might find this article useful. It was posted on the blue recently. Good conversations have lots of doorknobs
posted by OrangeDisk at 4:54 PM on May 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by OrangeDisk at 4:54 PM on May 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
Best answer: I think you're on the right track with the idea of asking a follow-up question in these positive situations, but try for personal/emotional questions rather than factual inquiries.
Lawnmowing - Did it feel good to get it all done? Are there more yard projects or are you all caught up?
Wedding - When are you thinking to have the event? Is your family excited?
I start my new job Tuesday - are you nervous? What's the neighborhood like over there - any good lunch places?
posted by xo at 4:57 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Lawnmowing - Did it feel good to get it all done? Are there more yard projects or are you all caught up?
Wedding - When are you thinking to have the event? Is your family excited?
I start my new job Tuesday - are you nervous? What's the neighborhood like over there - any good lunch places?
posted by xo at 4:57 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
You sound very certain of how other people are interpreting your conversational quirks. Are you actually getting feedback from people or are you just projecting your feelings of awkwardness?
I ask because as an awkward person myself I occasionally do check in with other people and am told that while my delivery is sometimes strange, nobody doubts my sincerity. I suspect that is because I am sincere and back it up with taking an interest in what people are doing and following up with them. Conversations don’t happen in a vacuum.
In any case, if you haven’t already I would make an effort to see how you’re actually perceived rather than strictly trusting your internal evaluation.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:01 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
I ask because as an awkward person myself I occasionally do check in with other people and am told that while my delivery is sometimes strange, nobody doubts my sincerity. I suspect that is because I am sincere and back it up with taking an interest in what people are doing and following up with them. Conversations don’t happen in a vacuum.
In any case, if you haven’t already I would make an effort to see how you’re actually perceived rather than strictly trusting your internal evaluation.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:01 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: To clarify, this is feedback I've gotten many times, in words, from the people involved. I get that if I say "cool!" and the conversation dies, there's no need to read into that. What I mean is for example, I say "cool!" and the response is "you could at least try to be excited" or "you don't have to like it" or "you can be honest, I know it's uncool."
I've also gotten this feedback indirectly, because the culture where I live tends to be extremely indirect ("guess" culture). Like, someone will respond to my comment about my own new job, for example, with exactly the same questions I asked them about theirs six months ago, in the same order, all in a row: "when do you start? are you nervous? any lunch places nearby?" the way that neurotypicals hint that you've done something weird by doing it back to you and waiting for you to notice.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 5:31 PM on May 15, 2023
I've also gotten this feedback indirectly, because the culture where I live tends to be extremely indirect ("guess" culture). Like, someone will respond to my comment about my own new job, for example, with exactly the same questions I asked them about theirs six months ago, in the same order, all in a row: "when do you start? are you nervous? any lunch places nearby?" the way that neurotypicals hint that you've done something weird by doing it back to you and waiting for you to notice.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 5:31 PM on May 15, 2023
Just tell them up front that you're autistic and have a flat affect and unusual conversation style which tends to confuse people, but that they can take your words at face value.
No amount of scripting and masking is going to counteract the negative thin-slice judgements that neurotypicals make of autistic people. But there's research that shows that those judgements become less negative when the neurotypical subject knows the autistic subject is autistic, because they then have an explanation for the subtle oddities that they can't be prevented from picking up on (I can't find the article at the moment).
posted by heatherlogan at 5:38 PM on May 15, 2023 [22 favorites]
No amount of scripting and masking is going to counteract the negative thin-slice judgements that neurotypicals make of autistic people. But there's research that shows that those judgements become less negative when the neurotypical subject knows the autistic subject is autistic, because they then have an explanation for the subtle oddities that they can't be prevented from picking up on (I can't find the article at the moment).
posted by heatherlogan at 5:38 PM on May 15, 2023 [22 favorites]
Alternatively... a lot of your acquaintances may just be assholes and there's nothing you can do about it, other than devoting more of your time and emotional effort to your true friends.
posted by heatherlogan at 5:40 PM on May 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 5:40 PM on May 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I wonder if it might help to throw in a little reflecting-people's-emotions-back-at-them"? Like, if I were talking to the person who mowed their lawn and hung out by the pool, I might say, "Oh, neat, it must feel good to get that chore out of the way and still have time to take it easy." Or "I bet you're glad you got the lawn mowed before we got that rain."
I think it's harder to read something like that as sarcastic than a one-word "cool!" response, even if the affect is the same.
posted by Jeanne at 5:43 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think it's harder to read something like that as sarcastic than a one-word "cool!" response, even if the affect is the same.
posted by Jeanne at 5:43 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Are you working with a therapist who's affirming of autism and other neurodiversity issues? I'm worrying they're asking you to (if this is a thing your therapist is suggesting, versus something that you've come up with yourself) start masking in ways that are detrimental to your actual emotional health in order to make neurotypical people comfortable.
posted by lapis at 5:44 PM on May 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by lapis at 5:44 PM on May 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
Best answer: If someone had a chill weekend, you're right, being over excited is a bit much. But you can just acknowledge it in a low-key way:
"That sounds like a nice, chill weekend"
Substitute chill/low key/relaxing/pleasant/a nice break/etc.
It's a positive acknowledgement, which is the main goal. And doesn't need much more acknowledgement than that, and isn't the kind of detail that people expect to lead to a conversation unless you genuinely want to commiserate about lawnmowing or ask about pool ownership, and you're right, that's the main reason you'd ask for more details about those things (I do have a lawnmower, I have *opinions* on ease of use 😂) .
Conversations are kind of a tennis match - you usually only ask questions about 10-20% 'deeper' than what you were asked. So that's more detailed, or more intimate etc, and through slow back and forth you get to more depth.
Saying superficial things someone did isn't much more deep than saying 'not bad', and it's ok if not everything someone says is a conversation starter, but making positive encouragement means they'll probably be more comfortable with conversation starter topics in future.
posted by Elysum at 5:51 PM on May 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
"That sounds like a nice, chill weekend"
Substitute chill/low key/relaxing/pleasant/a nice break/etc.
It's a positive acknowledgement, which is the main goal. And doesn't need much more acknowledgement than that, and isn't the kind of detail that people expect to lead to a conversation unless you genuinely want to commiserate about lawnmowing or ask about pool ownership, and you're right, that's the main reason you'd ask for more details about those things (I do have a lawnmower, I have *opinions* on ease of use 😂) .
Conversations are kind of a tennis match - you usually only ask questions about 10-20% 'deeper' than what you were asked. So that's more detailed, or more intimate etc, and through slow back and forth you get to more depth.
Saying superficial things someone did isn't much more deep than saying 'not bad', and it's ok if not everything someone says is a conversation starter, but making positive encouragement means they'll probably be more comfortable with conversation starter topics in future.
posted by Elysum at 5:51 PM on May 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
You might find training material on Motivational Interviewing helpful as there's a lot of focus on how to communicate in a way that opens up instead of stifling dialogue. Questions are a way of building connection, not just soliciting information. Asking about salt water vs chlorine isn't weird if you just tried a salt water pool for the first time, or you read an interesting article about pool ownership, or were curious about whether owning a pool is really worth it, or any number of things that show that you're genuinely interested in continuing that line of discussion. At the end of the day your coworker probably didn't need to hear anything more than something blandly generic like "sounds like a great way to spend the weekend!" if that's all you had to say about it, and that's ok!
It seems possible that there's a level of incongruity in what you and the other person expect out of the conversation. There are situations like talking to a coworker you are casually friendly with about your weekend and congratulating someone on a new job that are going to be pretty conversationally formulaic. Ultimately you might be doing yourself a disservice by suppressing your natural conversational impulses and hyperfocusing on asking questions to keep the conversation going. At the end of the day people will respond best to you being your authentic self.
posted by fox problems at 6:13 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
It seems possible that there's a level of incongruity in what you and the other person expect out of the conversation. There are situations like talking to a coworker you are casually friendly with about your weekend and congratulating someone on a new job that are going to be pretty conversationally formulaic. Ultimately you might be doing yourself a disservice by suppressing your natural conversational impulses and hyperfocusing on asking questions to keep the conversation going. At the end of the day people will respond best to you being your authentic self.
posted by fox problems at 6:13 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’m ADHD but not ASD, and struggle with a related problem (too much interest from me leading to people thinking I’m flirting, or finding myself intensely involved in conversations I don’t actually want to have).
It might help to think about how some of the reactions you’ve gotten show other people’s insecurities and/or communication weaknesses, rather than any problem with your own communication style. Someone who thinks you’re saying “Cool!” to be sarcastic may have been teased about that interest, or is afraid it doesn’t seem cool to others. Someone who asks the same routine questions about your new job that you asked them may just be following a script of Questions To Ask About New Job (caveat below, because that experience clearly felt unkind in the moment). It can be hard to exercise compassion when someone responds poorly to a sincere bid for connection, but we all have shitty days, or baggage from past relationships, and that might be at play in some of the interactions that inspired this question. You said you work on not taking these things personally, which is a skill I know I’ll be working on for the rest of my life.
Then again, +infinity to heatherlogan’s comment above. Someone who would snap back at you that “you don’t have to like it”, or criticize your expression of enthusiasm as inadequate when you express interest in their good news, sounds petty and immature. Someone who would mock the questions that you’ve asked them in the past sounds like an asshole-behaving human being, and not a person to waste your conversational gifts on. If these are typical behaviors of “friends“, do you really need them, especially when you have dear people who know and love you just the way you are?
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 6:15 PM on May 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
It might help to think about how some of the reactions you’ve gotten show other people’s insecurities and/or communication weaknesses, rather than any problem with your own communication style. Someone who thinks you’re saying “Cool!” to be sarcastic may have been teased about that interest, or is afraid it doesn’t seem cool to others. Someone who asks the same routine questions about your new job that you asked them may just be following a script of Questions To Ask About New Job (caveat below, because that experience clearly felt unkind in the moment). It can be hard to exercise compassion when someone responds poorly to a sincere bid for connection, but we all have shitty days, or baggage from past relationships, and that might be at play in some of the interactions that inspired this question. You said you work on not taking these things personally, which is a skill I know I’ll be working on for the rest of my life.
Then again, +infinity to heatherlogan’s comment above. Someone who would snap back at you that “you don’t have to like it”, or criticize your expression of enthusiasm as inadequate when you express interest in their good news, sounds petty and immature. Someone who would mock the questions that you’ve asked them in the past sounds like an asshole-behaving human being, and not a person to waste your conversational gifts on. If these are typical behaviors of “friends“, do you really need them, especially when you have dear people who know and love you just the way you are?
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 6:15 PM on May 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
Best answer: It sounds like you are a fun and interesting person to talk to so, yes, it's just about those little tweaks that help take your conversations to the next level. I wish we could chat in person because that's the quickest way to review things!
I think of a few points:
1. A lot of neurotypical people are not great conversationalists so it's not necessarily on you here. A lot of people would like to chat but are rushed so timing is something to consider. I am very positive and very direct so I'd assume the best intentions and ask for clarification if needed. Again, it's a great goal of yours but maybe it's less of a personal problem than you think it is and more of a 2023 thing. You aren't asking inappropriate or intrusive questions or making inappropriate or intrusive compliments so you're good there. Finding your group sounds ideal but, yeah, that's also a 2023 challenge for so many of us!
2. Non-verbal communication is big! How do you feel it's going for you? Are there people you feel are good role models you can learn from? It can be hard because flashing a little smile while making a compliment can help it feel good but too long a smile and it can feel creepy. You know this! It's just harder to figure out.
3. If you are talking to someone beyond quick small talk, it can help to add a meta-comment like "This is fun!" or "I'm really enjoying this conversation!" or even "I know we have different types of humor so it's cool to talk with you!" (Add a matching facial expression, etc.) Everyone likes to be liked; also, a comment like this can give each of you the chance to leave the conversation in a less awkward way. "Me too! I've got to go home but I hope you have a nice day." And the like.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:19 PM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think of a few points:
1. A lot of neurotypical people are not great conversationalists so it's not necessarily on you here. A lot of people would like to chat but are rushed so timing is something to consider. I am very positive and very direct so I'd assume the best intentions and ask for clarification if needed. Again, it's a great goal of yours but maybe it's less of a personal problem than you think it is and more of a 2023 thing. You aren't asking inappropriate or intrusive questions or making inappropriate or intrusive compliments so you're good there. Finding your group sounds ideal but, yeah, that's also a 2023 challenge for so many of us!
2. Non-verbal communication is big! How do you feel it's going for you? Are there people you feel are good role models you can learn from? It can be hard because flashing a little smile while making a compliment can help it feel good but too long a smile and it can feel creepy. You know this! It's just harder to figure out.
3. If you are talking to someone beyond quick small talk, it can help to add a meta-comment like "This is fun!" or "I'm really enjoying this conversation!" or even "I know we have different types of humor so it's cool to talk with you!" (Add a matching facial expression, etc.) Everyone likes to be liked; also, a comment like this can give each of you the chance to leave the conversation in a less awkward way. "Me too! I've got to go home but I hope you have a nice day." And the like.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:19 PM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
It sounds like everything you are trying to say is all of, or at least 2 out of 3 of, interested, appropriate, and polite, and that the disconnect is chiefly arising because you have a very flat affect. You know the verbal scripts, so what you need* are the nonverbal scripts. This is definitely something an acting or speech coach can help with! How to reflect someone's smile/expression level, how to match your voice/pitch to theirs.
*IF this is a thing you want to do, ultimately, for your own reasons and not just to make the neurotypical people stop bullying you, see below...
in the same order, all in a row: "when do you start? are you nervous? any lunch places nearby?" the way that neurotypicals hint that you've done something weird by doing it back to you and waiting for you to notice.
I uh... have been neurotypical all my life as far as I know and I have never even heard of this being a thing that is done to signal things to anyone? Are you saying they straight up mimic you in a teasing way? In which case they aren't neurotypicals doing neurotypical things, they're fucking assholes making fun of you out of cruelty, and you should stop talking to them about anything other than absolute required work stuff or whatever.
This is definitely not like, a standard thing a neurotypical person understands as How To Politely Convey That Someone Is Doing Weird. Which makes me wonder if maybe the problem is actually just that...well, people are being bullies to you. And I want people to do what they need to do to feel safe, but fuck bullies, you ain't owe them nothing.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:33 PM on May 15, 2023 [15 favorites]
*IF this is a thing you want to do, ultimately, for your own reasons and not just to make the neurotypical people stop bullying you, see below...
in the same order, all in a row: "when do you start? are you nervous? any lunch places nearby?" the way that neurotypicals hint that you've done something weird by doing it back to you and waiting for you to notice.
I uh... have been neurotypical all my life as far as I know and I have never even heard of this being a thing that is done to signal things to anyone? Are you saying they straight up mimic you in a teasing way? In which case they aren't neurotypicals doing neurotypical things, they're fucking assholes making fun of you out of cruelty, and you should stop talking to them about anything other than absolute required work stuff or whatever.
This is definitely not like, a standard thing a neurotypical person understands as How To Politely Convey That Someone Is Doing Weird. Which makes me wonder if maybe the problem is actually just that...well, people are being bullies to you. And I want people to do what they need to do to feel safe, but fuck bullies, you ain't owe them nothing.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:33 PM on May 15, 2023 [15 favorites]
I think there are a few things going on here:
- Some of your friends are probably assholes
- Some of your questions may sound insincere
- You are definitely bringing a lot of stuff to the table in the way you experience and interpret people's reactions to your questions.
For instance:
Like, someone will respond to my comment about my own new job, for example, with exactly the same questions I asked them about theirs six months ago, in the same order, all in a row: "when do you start? are you nervous? any lunch places nearby?"
I guarantee you they are not memorizing your perfectly normal questions in order and then lying in wait for six months so they can fire back this perfectly normal series of questions at you! That would require much more attention and a much better memory than most people have to give, even setting aside that it's deranged behavior. (I mean, I guess there's an outside chance they're doing this but it would be genuinely sociopathic to devote this kind of mental energy to making fun of someone for... asking when you start your new job.) The reason they're using those same questions is that they're perfectly normal questions. Congratulations, this is actually proof that you asked a perfectly normal series of questions!
It's hard to differentiate between these things (people being assholes to you, your questions feeling insincere, and you bringing insecurities or anxieties to your experience of other people's reaction), but it's probably easier to unpack in therapy. It's also hard to come up with a script for sincere-sounding questions—I think a lot of the specific ones people have recommended to you here sound really stilted and would throw me off in a conversation, because unfortunately these questions have to arrive organically! I think you should feel empowered to ask the questions you're actually interested in, though. If you don't really care what kind of poolside lounging people are planning to get up to, but you're curious whether it's a saltwater pool, ask whether it's a saltwater pool, and when they say "why do you ask?" tell them why you ask! Did you read something recently about saltwater pools? Do you know someone who has one? What spurred you to wonder, or even know that there were two kinds of pool? (I didn't!) That's one way to get the give and take that OrangeDisk's article talks about. In your sample conversation, there's no reason for the [mortified] step—that's something you're bringing to the table. It's not mortifying to know two types of water, and they're not implying that it is. They just want to know why you're interested in the question. Answering this is good conversational practice, NOT embarrassing or a party foul, and it will be easier to answer if you are in fact interested.
As for affect, I agree that it can be learned (I think I get a lot of social mileage out of exaggerated facial expressions, which is something I had to consciously decide to do and I feel a bit silly every time), but also there's more than one way to demonstrate sincere interest and one way to do it is asking the questions that interest you instead of the ones you think will avoid you being asked any follow-up questions in return. (You want those follow-up questions, so you don't have to do all the work!)
posted by babelfish at 7:49 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
- Some of your friends are probably assholes
- Some of your questions may sound insincere
- You are definitely bringing a lot of stuff to the table in the way you experience and interpret people's reactions to your questions.
For instance:
Like, someone will respond to my comment about my own new job, for example, with exactly the same questions I asked them about theirs six months ago, in the same order, all in a row: "when do you start? are you nervous? any lunch places nearby?"
I guarantee you they are not memorizing your perfectly normal questions in order and then lying in wait for six months so they can fire back this perfectly normal series of questions at you! That would require much more attention and a much better memory than most people have to give, even setting aside that it's deranged behavior. (I mean, I guess there's an outside chance they're doing this but it would be genuinely sociopathic to devote this kind of mental energy to making fun of someone for... asking when you start your new job.) The reason they're using those same questions is that they're perfectly normal questions. Congratulations, this is actually proof that you asked a perfectly normal series of questions!
It's hard to differentiate between these things (people being assholes to you, your questions feeling insincere, and you bringing insecurities or anxieties to your experience of other people's reaction), but it's probably easier to unpack in therapy. It's also hard to come up with a script for sincere-sounding questions—I think a lot of the specific ones people have recommended to you here sound really stilted and would throw me off in a conversation, because unfortunately these questions have to arrive organically! I think you should feel empowered to ask the questions you're actually interested in, though. If you don't really care what kind of poolside lounging people are planning to get up to, but you're curious whether it's a saltwater pool, ask whether it's a saltwater pool, and when they say "why do you ask?" tell them why you ask! Did you read something recently about saltwater pools? Do you know someone who has one? What spurred you to wonder, or even know that there were two kinds of pool? (I didn't!) That's one way to get the give and take that OrangeDisk's article talks about. In your sample conversation, there's no reason for the [mortified] step—that's something you're bringing to the table. It's not mortifying to know two types of water, and they're not implying that it is. They just want to know why you're interested in the question. Answering this is good conversational practice, NOT embarrassing or a party foul, and it will be easier to answer if you are in fact interested.
As for affect, I agree that it can be learned (I think I get a lot of social mileage out of exaggerated facial expressions, which is something I had to consciously decide to do and I feel a bit silly every time), but also there's more than one way to demonstrate sincere interest and one way to do it is asking the questions that interest you instead of the ones you think will avoid you being asked any follow-up questions in return. (You want those follow-up questions, so you don't have to do all the work!)
posted by babelfish at 7:49 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Since these are acquaintances, I’ll add to the suggestions to make an observation about the weather (yeah, the weather was great for being outside!) as a response. Honestly, most people just want to be seen and acknowledged, going too deep makes them feel like they need to be very interested back and they don’t like the obligation.
Relatedly, get out of conversations sooner than you feel like you should. Have a couple scripts (nice talking to you, I’ve got a meeting / going to get punch / whatever). I found small talk would lag and I didn’t exit quickly enough and that made it weird. Leave them wanting more! Get out of there!
And unfortunately, the repeating behavior thing does happen. More when I was a teen, but sometimes as an adult, it’s rude and they’re baiting you. Just politely leave the conversation and don’t seek them out in the future.
posted by momus_window at 7:58 PM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Relatedly, get out of conversations sooner than you feel like you should. Have a couple scripts (nice talking to you, I’ve got a meeting / going to get punch / whatever). I found small talk would lag and I didn’t exit quickly enough and that made it weird. Leave them wanting more! Get out of there!
And unfortunately, the repeating behavior thing does happen. More when I was a teen, but sometimes as an adult, it’s rude and they’re baiting you. Just politely leave the conversation and don’t seek them out in the future.
posted by momus_window at 7:58 PM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Oh, and Games People Play by Eric Byrne was useful to me for understanding some conversations I had that made no fucking sense. It’s a list of conversational pattens that (some) people try to get other folks to play along with, and they don’t like it if you don’t play your part, with examples. It’s pretty dated and negative about human interaction, but the concept helped me.
posted by momus_window at 8:22 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by momus_window at 8:22 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Next conversational script.
When you want to express that you're happy for someone's life news, without sounding fake -
You can be more serious about it, if you are more meaningful.
E.g. Saying, seriously, that "I'm really happy for you because I know this is something you have wanted for a long/that you have worked really hard for" and then you can include something that shows that you've listened to what they said in the past, which also fits into your tendency to make observations, so use that and link it back so they know you've listened to them, like I know you said you wanted to get into X career/technology/etc so acknowledging this is a big step.
Or if you can suggest that you've listened to why they really like their partner "I'm really happy for you, because you've said how well x listens to you/x knows just how to cheer you up when you're sad/how you want to go live in an old house in the country and now you're marrying a builder which is perfect".
You can be positive and sincere and validating without being over enthusiastic.
***
in the same order, all in a row: "when do you start? are you nervous? any lunch places nearby?" *
I was confused by this. And wasn't quite sure whether by 'in a row' you meant, there was a gap or not.
It's... 6 months later? I wouldn't even remember the order of the questions!
If they asked each question one by one, and gave you time to reply, then I don't think they were mocking you.
The only way I would have thought something weird would have been happening, is if they said all three very quickly, with no space between them for you to reply, and were mimicking your vocal tone or mannerisms.
People often use conversational scripts. At it's most innocent, they might have been assuming that that is how *you* would like to be asked about a new job.
Final factor, if it did seem weird, in some cultures, people don't really... Ask direct questions.
And by different I mean, Ireland does this less than England.
Direct questions can be seen as kind of invasive, and limiting the conversational avenues. Instead, one person talks about a topic, say their job, and then the other person talks about their job or related topics. So if one person talks about dogs, they don't need to directly ask if the other person has a dog, they'll just talk about dogs or perhaps other pets they've had, instead?
Just if you are absolutely, 100% sure that they are being weird about the questions, then there's nothing odd about those questions themselves, so I'm wondering if maybe you're just in a region where people don't ask as many direct questions?
posted by Elysum at 8:51 PM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
When you want to express that you're happy for someone's life news, without sounding fake -
You can be more serious about it, if you are more meaningful.
E.g. Saying, seriously, that "I'm really happy for you because I know this is something you have wanted for a long/that you have worked really hard for" and then you can include something that shows that you've listened to what they said in the past, which also fits into your tendency to make observations, so use that and link it back so they know you've listened to them, like I know you said you wanted to get into X career/technology/etc so acknowledging this is a big step.
Or if you can suggest that you've listened to why they really like their partner "I'm really happy for you, because you've said how well x listens to you/x knows just how to cheer you up when you're sad/how you want to go live in an old house in the country and now you're marrying a builder which is perfect".
You can be positive and sincere and validating without being over enthusiastic.
***
in the same order, all in a row: "when do you start? are you nervous? any lunch places nearby?" *
I was confused by this. And wasn't quite sure whether by 'in a row' you meant, there was a gap or not.
It's... 6 months later? I wouldn't even remember the order of the questions!
If they asked each question one by one, and gave you time to reply, then I don't think they were mocking you.
The only way I would have thought something weird would have been happening, is if they said all three very quickly, with no space between them for you to reply, and were mimicking your vocal tone or mannerisms.
People often use conversational scripts. At it's most innocent, they might have been assuming that that is how *you* would like to be asked about a new job.
Final factor, if it did seem weird, in some cultures, people don't really... Ask direct questions.
And by different I mean, Ireland does this less than England.
Direct questions can be seen as kind of invasive, and limiting the conversational avenues. Instead, one person talks about a topic, say their job, and then the other person talks about their job or related topics. So if one person talks about dogs, they don't need to directly ask if the other person has a dog, they'll just talk about dogs or perhaps other pets they've had, instead?
Just if you are absolutely, 100% sure that they are being weird about the questions, then there's nothing odd about those questions themselves, so I'm wondering if maybe you're just in a region where people don't ask as many direct questions?
posted by Elysum at 8:51 PM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
"He's a great guy!" or "That company is lucky to have you!" sounds like I'm giving my stamp of approval on the groom or the employer which is not my place.
I couldn't say exactly how people around you will take it, but to me those sorts of responses are almost phatic expressions. They're not really endorsing anything, they're just stuff people say. All fiances are "great guys" unless you really think otherwise. "Lucky to have you" conveniently doesn't judge whether they're a good company or not, but that your friend deserves the job! Which they definitionally do, if they're your friend and you don't know anything to the contrary. If you really wanted to endorse a guy or a job, you'd have to go above and beyond that. So if you can find it within you to work on those sorts of responses I think they might go over well.
Elysum's suggestions are really great if you can put them together fast enough! Saying specific things like that will communicate sincerity even if you can't quite get there on affect alone.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:45 PM on May 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I couldn't say exactly how people around you will take it, but to me those sorts of responses are almost phatic expressions. They're not really endorsing anything, they're just stuff people say. All fiances are "great guys" unless you really think otherwise. "Lucky to have you" conveniently doesn't judge whether they're a good company or not, but that your friend deserves the job! Which they definitionally do, if they're your friend and you don't know anything to the contrary. If you really wanted to endorse a guy or a job, you'd have to go above and beyond that. So if you can find it within you to work on those sorts of responses I think they might go over well.
Elysum's suggestions are really great if you can put them together fast enough! Saying specific things like that will communicate sincerity even if you can't quite get there on affect alone.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:45 PM on May 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Learning about how autistic people communicate, vs non autistic people, helped me a lot.
For whatever reason, we (autistic people) care more about sharing information, than signalling status in the group, or how close or distant the relationship is.
The entire purpose of small talk, for example, is signalling that everyone involved is friendly enough to talk about [innocuous topic] and not actively cutting anyone else out of the group.
More intense or (to you) interesting topics in small talk are avoided because non-autistic people read emotional intensity to be a bid for closer connection, which comes with all kinds of burdensome obligations.
Or they think you're trying to signal higher status by showing off your knowledge.
Non-autistic people focus primarily on the non spoken aspects of a conversation, non verbal clues that we either don't pick up on, or miss because so much of our processing power is being used simply to decode what we hear.
Many autistic people have auditory processing difficulties, for example, do you find it difficult to hear what someone has said, when they say something wholly unexpected? Do you often ask people to repeat themselves? Do you struggle more in conversation with more than one person? Does your body tense up with effort to hear and concentrate in an environment with background noise, or bad acoustics?
Please, please be extremely careful with advice on how to mask better. Internalising the message that you have to change your every tiny unconscious expression and tone of voice is harmful to you, especially because non-autistic people are very good at seeing through your mask. They are not aware of their biases, will read you masking, and think you're being dishonest or manipulative.
Even if you don't think you're autistic, or aren't sure, spend some time in autistic online spaces.
Not necessarily to find out whether or not you're autistic, more to be surrounded by other people who "get" you without you having to turn yourself inside out just to be understood.
For me, it's been all about understanding how non-autistic people judge me, and how to navigate that without shame.
Some places you can try are r/autisminwomen and r/autism on reddit, as well as the @actuallyautistic@a.gup.pe group on Mastodon.
posted by Zumbador at 9:59 PM on May 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
For whatever reason, we (autistic people) care more about sharing information, than signalling status in the group, or how close or distant the relationship is.
The entire purpose of small talk, for example, is signalling that everyone involved is friendly enough to talk about [innocuous topic] and not actively cutting anyone else out of the group.
More intense or (to you) interesting topics in small talk are avoided because non-autistic people read emotional intensity to be a bid for closer connection, which comes with all kinds of burdensome obligations.
Or they think you're trying to signal higher status by showing off your knowledge.
Non-autistic people focus primarily on the non spoken aspects of a conversation, non verbal clues that we either don't pick up on, or miss because so much of our processing power is being used simply to decode what we hear.
Many autistic people have auditory processing difficulties, for example, do you find it difficult to hear what someone has said, when they say something wholly unexpected? Do you often ask people to repeat themselves? Do you struggle more in conversation with more than one person? Does your body tense up with effort to hear and concentrate in an environment with background noise, or bad acoustics?
Please, please be extremely careful with advice on how to mask better. Internalising the message that you have to change your every tiny unconscious expression and tone of voice is harmful to you, especially because non-autistic people are very good at seeing through your mask. They are not aware of their biases, will read you masking, and think you're being dishonest or manipulative.
Even if you don't think you're autistic, or aren't sure, spend some time in autistic online spaces.
Not necessarily to find out whether or not you're autistic, more to be surrounded by other people who "get" you without you having to turn yourself inside out just to be understood.
For me, it's been all about understanding how non-autistic people judge me, and how to navigate that without shame.
Some places you can try are r/autisminwomen and r/autism on reddit, as well as the @actuallyautistic@a.gup.pe group on Mastodon.
posted by Zumbador at 9:59 PM on May 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
I also do suspect that these folks are not expecting a question after every answer they give if they're reacting badly like this, like Elysum's other suggestion. You might mix in some... well, statements, rather than questions, in. So if someone says something about their weekend, you can ask them a question, and then as a follow-up mention something about your weekend, or your ideal weekend that's similar-but-different, but still affirming whatever they did over the weekend as a fun thing. "That sounds nice! I love a weekend at home too" or something like that. And then they might ask you a question! Conversation successfully continued.
If they're prickly about questions then this sort of yes I'm listening, here's a little bit about me in return is not a bad sort of conversation. Or- and I cannot stress this enough- talk about the weather. Really! Yeah, it's a nothing sort of conversational gambit, but in my experience hardly anyone hates talking about the weather. You can almost always respond to something by mentioning the weather if you're stuck.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:06 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
If they're prickly about questions then this sort of yes I'm listening, here's a little bit about me in return is not a bad sort of conversation. Or- and I cannot stress this enough- talk about the weather. Really! Yeah, it's a nothing sort of conversational gambit, but in my experience hardly anyone hates talking about the weather. You can almost always respond to something by mentioning the weather if you're stuck.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:06 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sorry reading through my post, I'm not sure if I'm being clear.
I'm assuming that you're autistic, because what you describe is typical of being autistic, so take that however is most helpful.
It's like being Spanish, and asking for advice on how to speak English. But the English people, in my imaginary analogy, are under the impression that English is the only language in existence.
You still need to learn how to speak English, but you're more likely to get actually helpful advice from people who acknowledge that your first language, Spanish, exists, and that you're fluent in it, and that the fact that you can't speak English isn't because there's something wrong with you.
posted by Zumbador at 12:00 AM on May 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm assuming that you're autistic, because what you describe is typical of being autistic, so take that however is most helpful.
It's like being Spanish, and asking for advice on how to speak English. But the English people, in my imaginary analogy, are under the impression that English is the only language in existence.
You still need to learn how to speak English, but you're more likely to get actually helpful advice from people who acknowledge that your first language, Spanish, exists, and that you're fluent in it, and that the fact that you can't speak English isn't because there's something wrong with you.
posted by Zumbador at 12:00 AM on May 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
If I'd only read the first half of your question, I would have suggested follow-up questions and positive affirmation ("that sounds cool! When did you get the pool installed?"). If you're getting clear, direct feedback that follow-up questions and positive affirmation aren't working for you, I'd suspect it's about expression and tone rather than actual content.
I also wonder if -- with people you talk to often -- you could express some of the stuff you said here; that your flat affect doesn't represent your feelings, that you grew up with people who made up a lot of puns and songs and that you're often coming up with, and repressing puns and songs. Then they wouldn't have to worry about the meaning of the pause before your response.
posted by hungrytiger at 12:26 AM on May 16, 2023
I also wonder if -- with people you talk to often -- you could express some of the stuff you said here; that your flat affect doesn't represent your feelings, that you grew up with people who made up a lot of puns and songs and that you're often coming up with, and repressing puns and songs. Then they wouldn't have to worry about the meaning of the pause before your response.
posted by hungrytiger at 12:26 AM on May 16, 2023
Best answer: To clarify, this is feedback I've gotten many times, in words, from the people involved. I get that if I say "cool!" and the conversation dies, there's no need to read into that. What I mean is for example, I say "cool!" and the response is "you could at least try to be excited" or "you don't have to like it" or "you can be honest, I know it's uncool."
I think you're being way too hard on yourself, and I think these other people are being too hard on you as well.
To some extent, the way you describe yourself is just... your personality. It's a big world, and there's room for all kinds of people in it, with all kinds of ways of making conversation, and many different senses of humor.
Some of the people you're surrounded by may not "get" you, or your approach. It doesn't mean you're inherently at fault. Maybe what you really need to do is try to spend more time among people who *do* get you, and who appreciate you for who you are.
I don't know how old you are, but I'm a Gen Xer, and I grew up in a time when sarcasm and irony were more culturally dominant. This definitely shaped me. I feel like now we're in a moment dominated by millennials and zoomers who are generally more sincere and earnest, and who find a lot of sarcasm to be too harsh and negative. There's a lot I can appreciate about that perspective. Still, sometimes I just relish being around fellow Xers and letting rip with the withering, sardonic commentary.
You don't need to exclusively seek out the company of people who share your sensibility (it's probably impossible anyway, the world being the way it is). But you can try to strike a balance between conforming, somewhat, to your surroundings when necessary, and also seeking opportunities to connect with like-minded souls who are on your wavelength.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:21 AM on May 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think you're being way too hard on yourself, and I think these other people are being too hard on you as well.
To some extent, the way you describe yourself is just... your personality. It's a big world, and there's room for all kinds of people in it, with all kinds of ways of making conversation, and many different senses of humor.
Some of the people you're surrounded by may not "get" you, or your approach. It doesn't mean you're inherently at fault. Maybe what you really need to do is try to spend more time among people who *do* get you, and who appreciate you for who you are.
I don't know how old you are, but I'm a Gen Xer, and I grew up in a time when sarcasm and irony were more culturally dominant. This definitely shaped me. I feel like now we're in a moment dominated by millennials and zoomers who are generally more sincere and earnest, and who find a lot of sarcasm to be too harsh and negative. There's a lot I can appreciate about that perspective. Still, sometimes I just relish being around fellow Xers and letting rip with the withering, sardonic commentary.
You don't need to exclusively seek out the company of people who share your sensibility (it's probably impossible anyway, the world being the way it is). But you can try to strike a balance between conforming, somewhat, to your surroundings when necessary, and also seeking opportunities to connect with like-minded souls who are on your wavelength.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:21 AM on May 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think you should just let yourself say funny puns and things. You deserve to exist in the world and not cut off pieces of yourself. Especially when what you are describing is harmless! You might benefit from seeking out and reading Chuck Tingles’ social media posts (he’s on Tumblr, fb and maybe Twitter) about how much chronic pain and harm he caused to himself by masking so hard and how necessary it has been for his health to be himself.
I was expecting some really terrible social skills in the “more inside” section. Instead, this is just a different way of being in the world. You are engaging fine and you do a good job of showing care in hard times. That people don’t know how to play with you in fun conversations sounds like a them problem.
posted by Bottlecap at 10:25 AM on May 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
I was expecting some really terrible social skills in the “more inside” section. Instead, this is just a different way of being in the world. You are engaging fine and you do a good job of showing care in hard times. That people don’t know how to play with you in fun conversations sounds like a them problem.
posted by Bottlecap at 10:25 AM on May 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
I like the suggestions about remarking on the weather, or "You must be so excited!"
I know the feeling of talking with someone and they twist it around into something awkward that you're then trying to extricate yourself from. If, for example, someone accuses you of fishing for an invite to their wedding (???), when they're the ones that brought it up, you can let an awkward pause float around in the air, before saying, "Oh, I don't know how you got that impression, but nevertheless, I'm happy for you." or "Just responding to what you just said?" or "Huh?"
posted by SillyShepherd at 12:08 PM on May 16, 2023
I know the feeling of talking with someone and they twist it around into something awkward that you're then trying to extricate yourself from. If, for example, someone accuses you of fishing for an invite to their wedding (???), when they're the ones that brought it up, you can let an awkward pause float around in the air, before saying, "Oh, I don't know how you got that impression, but nevertheless, I'm happy for you." or "Just responding to what you just said?" or "Huh?"
posted by SillyShepherd at 12:08 PM on May 16, 2023
Of all of the ways to make people feel comfortable, telling them explicitly how you communicate and what you intend might be the most effective approach. I second the advice that aiming for more masking would likely be detrimental to your well-being and unlikely to work. It's evident that you're already spending a lot of time trying to analyze how to conform better to what you think people expect, and more of this doesn't seem helpful. I also second that trying to spend some more time with people whose conversational style you are instinctively compatible with may be fruitful. You could use those conversations to reflect on what is good conversation for you.
posted by lookoutbelow at 1:44 PM on May 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 1:44 PM on May 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
In support of spending time with people who make you feel good:
C.J. Crompton et al., ‘I never realised everybody felt as happy as I do when I am around autistic people’: A thematic analysis of autistic adults’ relationships with autistic and neurotypical friends and family
C.J. Crompton et al., ‘I never realised everybody felt as happy as I do when I am around autistic people’: A thematic analysis of autistic adults’ relationships with autistic and neurotypical friends and family
Abstract: Many autistic people are motivated to have friends, relationships and close family bonds, despite the clinical characterisation of autism as a condition negatively affecting social interaction. Many first-hand accounts of autistic people describe feelings of comfort and ease specifically with other autistic people. This qualitative research explored and contrasted autistic experiences of spending social time with neurotypical and autistic friends and family. In total, 12 autistic adults (10 females, aged 21–51) completed semi-structured interviews focused on time spent with friends and family; positive and negative aspects of time spent with neurotypical and autistic friends and family; and feelings during and after spending time together. Three themes were identified: cross-neurotype understanding, minority status and belonging. Investigation of these themes reveals the benefits of autistic people creating and maintaining social relationships with other autistic people, in a more systematic way than previous individual reports. They highlight the need for autistic-led social opportunities and indicate benefits of informal peer support for autistic adults.posted by heatherlogan at 5:08 PM on May 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by ananci at 4:43 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]