Negative capability

May 14, 2023 10:12 AM

I have an acquaintance.

We are both in the same field (she is much more well-known and accomplished) as well as sharing several life experiences. When I see her she seems to negate everything I say, and doesn't couch it.

Sample conversation:

Me: Have you heard the new band Tiger 12?
Her: That band sucks.
Me: Did you go to that that new exhibit at x Gallery?
Her: I hate those people, they're idiots.
Me: Are you doing the y show next week?
Her: No, those people are idiots.
Me: (Finishing a thought....)
Her: *checks phone*


I feel like she cuts down everything I say--these are more general examples, but it's almost like she wants to contradict/negate everything I say. Obviously I didn't take notes to tell you more of the more personal exchanges but I feel deflated when I leave. Some things will be vague but I will try and remedy that.

Also, she's younger that me and I am given to understand that the generation below checks their phones a lot. (But I took my niece and her husband to an exhibit and later we sat and talked. The phones didn't come out til we left, over two hours.)

Here's the thing: Although not a cordial person, she tends to greet me, so I step in. Obviously I stepped in it, I always thought since we were in the same field we could help each other. (I'm re-thinking that)

Is this person toxic? Or just really really blunt? Am I clueless? I'm an introvert and she is an extrovert if that makes any difference. Or do I just steer clear.

If I am clueless, I know you will tell me. But please be kind. I feel deflated.

posted by Rumi'sLeftSock to Human Relations (41 answers total)

Toxic is a bit strong but she doesn’t sound much fun to hang out with. Fine to say hi when you run into her, but don’t make plans for much more than that.
posted by rd45 at 10:17 AM on May 14, 2023 [10 favorites]

I don't find the word "toxic" that useful as applied to people, but she clearly has a negative interaction style. If you want to try pushing back a little, say, e.g., "Oh, well, I liked it" and see how she takes it. If she recalibrates, she may just be a little clueless. If she doesn't pick up what you're putting down...especially when I was younger, I used to bond with people over criticizing things, but, if you're not in sync on the appropriate level of negativity, it's just exhausting. Move on.
posted by praemunire at 10:19 AM on May 14, 2023 [17 favorites]

She sounds really fucking annoying but is definitely a lot of people’s jam, just not yours or mine.

The phone thing is generational but I’ve found that there’s a 7-10 year range where people check their phones a lot in conversational situations but people under and over that age range don’t. People over 40 and under 30 seem much better about not doing it.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:20 AM on May 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

I had an old roommate like this. She was just a negative and self-centered person who really could not grasp that calling all my favorite local businesses bad and dumb was mean and insulting. Her own personal experiences and tastes were the only valid ones. I’m glad I don’t go through life filled with that much negativity, it sounds exhausting and unpleasant.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:25 AM on May 14, 2023 [6 favorites]

You might like this latest essay from Samantha Irby which is about saying that you like things to other people who say they don’t like those things.
posted by pinkacademic at 10:31 AM on May 14, 2023 [25 favorites]

In your examples, which I realize probably do not cover the entirety of your interactions, each time you ask a neutral question ("Have you heard of...", "Are you doing...", etc.) and she responds with her opinion. It may be worth an experiment where you put your opinion out there first ("I really love this band that's new to me, Tiger 12. I've been playing one of their songs over and over. Do you know them?") so that you're setting a positive tone to start.

If you've already done that and it hasn't worked, or if you try it and it doesn't change anything, then it just sounds like she's sour. I don't think this is close to "toxic" -- she's not name-calling or sabotaging you -- but some people are just consistently negative. You don't have to put yourself around that.
posted by lapis at 10:33 AM on May 14, 2023 [14 favorites]

If you have the option to steer clear, do. When she greets you, don’t step up for a conversation just say “hello, nice to see you” and go about your day. You don’t have to like or help everyone who shares your field.
posted by Bottlecap at 10:33 AM on May 14, 2023 [9 favorites]

It sounds like you want to be friendly (by engaging in conversation), it doesn't sound like she wants to be more than polite (by greeting you but giving you answers that shut down conversation). I don't think having strong opinions is necessarily negative or toxic, but it isn't a dynamic I'd be wanting to step into over and over again.
posted by sm1tten at 10:35 AM on May 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

It's unclear how long you've known her, but one possibility if she thinks "everything sucks" is that she's depressed. Since it doesn't sound like you're that close, you might not be the person to say anything - but if her negativity is also impacting her work, you might tactfully say something once.
posted by coffeecat at 10:43 AM on May 14, 2023

Depressed was my first thought. And my second.

Here's an idea for a tactic: Ask her about something she likes. Start with an open-ended query; if she can't answer easily, model an easy answer by giving an example (or two, or three) of something you like within the question, then repeat the query (to draw her away from commenting on your examples).

You: Hey Stephanie! I feel like I'd like to know a tiny bit more about you. You heard me mention a band I love last month -- is there a kind of music or a band that you like?

S: A band I like? | I don't know... | I just know I don't like country music.

Y: I hear that! But when I hear even a few bars of "Stairway to Heaven" or "Clair de Lune" I just feel happier. Is there any music that does that for you? Or some other thing, a favorite flower or an Internet meme? Or some music you like?

S: [Some positive information about her]

--- or ---

S: Wow, classical music is so depressing/elitist/cliche.

Y: I hear that. What's something you like, though? I need to fill out my picture of good things associated with Stephanie.

Best of luck to you.
posted by amtho at 10:57 AM on May 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

Or just really really blunt

Nah. If she was just blunt should be saying positive as well as negative things.

Unlike others I would say she is toxic, in the sense that people who are constantly negative can be contagious. Hating everything is easy and it’s not a habit you want to pick up.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:03 AM on May 14, 2023 [7 favorites]

Who cares about labels or diagnoses? Just say hi, don't go beyond that, if she picks up the thread and starts initiating conversations with you then fine and if not, fine. If she does initiate conversations but you find that you don't like how those conversations make you feel, it's okay to exit them. She could be the nicest, healthiest, most insightful person in the world and you still wouldn't need to spend time making conversation with her if those conversations made you feel bad.
posted by trig at 11:13 AM on May 14, 2023 [17 favorites]

First, just echoing that you're under no obligation to seek out interactions with someone who reliably makes you feel worse for talking with them, regardless of why they are the way they are.

That said, if you do end up in a conversation with her, I wonder what would happen if you bring up some topic or problem in your shared field that you're likely to both find irritating. If she's willing to join you in complaining, well, it's probably not the healthiest form of bonding, but some people it and it does give the two of you a touchpoint in common. If she negates you by suddenly finding something positive to say instead, well, you know the issue is specifically about her being contrarian rather than negative.
posted by eponym at 11:29 AM on May 14, 2023

She might just be really insecure. Most of the people I know who do (or did) this were afraid to like anything that wasn't within their own "this is super cool" boundaries, they were afraid that they would be "tainted" by being around uncool people, they were afraid that others were judging them all the time, etc. A lot of them were humanities grad students, if that helps at all. Many of them grew out of it. They would not have said "I am super insecure, that is why I put down everything you like and treat you like you're the most embarrassing nerd who ever nerded" but that's what it was; they were terrified that The Coolest Grad Student In The Universe was going to come along and put them down because they had a friend who, like, didn't have the proper opinions about Lacan or whatever.

Anyway, a good decision I made was not to hang around with those people. Some of them outgrew it and a few are friends now; one of them moved his fantastic, talented wife across country for his grad program and then cheated on her with a fellow grad student, got a divorce and did not go on to bigger and better things.
posted by Frowner at 11:33 AM on May 14, 2023 [10 favorites]

I don't see anything you are doing wrong. It sounds like dealing with her is hurtful and annoying for you. But there's probably nothing to do about it other than adjusting your expectations. This person shits on anything I try to share with them -> I'm going to stop trying to share things with them.

I mean tbh maybe she is showing that she doesn't think that, because you are in the same field, you can help each other. Sometimes you will meet people who, no matter what affinities you might have on paper, just are not going to be interested in you (at least, this happens to me). So I guess you adjust to that and move on to other pastures.
posted by grobstein at 11:34 AM on May 14, 2023

Also, people who are unkind like that can make you feel really bad, like there's some deficiency with you or you're doing something wrong, but the deficiency is theirs - maybe they just don't have social skills, maybe they're insecure, maybe their experience is so limited that they think nothing good exists outside their particular purview, maybe they are just really young for their age. It's so much better to be a person who is secure enough and outward-looking enough to be able to enter into others' interests and enjoyments.
posted by Frowner at 11:37 AM on May 14, 2023 [9 favorites]

I feel deflated.

I don't think she's aiming any of that specifically at you. In my experience, people who talk that way do it to everybody. It's just habitual.

It's a habit that makes those who have it hard work to be around. If your acquaintance were my acquaintance, I would limit my interaction with them strictly to whatever was unavoidable.
posted by flabdablet at 11:44 AM on May 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

I know a fellow who is like this. What's exasperating is how committed to negativity he is. He's intelligent, and can contribute interesting things to a conversation, but he's exhausting in his stubborn commitment to negativity. He is lonely and wants social interaction, but he saps the joy and energy out of every conversation.

There's a part of me that wants to shake him by the shoulders and tell him that he's being an ass. His intellect might allow him to trounce me in a discussion about why X is futile, but it's not making him any friends. And WE ALL need friends more than we need to "win" the conversation. He ESPECIALLY needs friends, because I've seen him become more socially isolated over the years due to his attitude.

I can't tell if he doesn't realize that he's alienating everyone who makes an effort to know him, or if he knows, but just can't help himself, or something else.

There's clinical depression going on with him, and he knows it, but he also think He Knows Better Than The Doctors and Therapists, so that's a problem I can't help him with.

I've had to evaluate how much I can deal with him, and I've concluded that he's best in small doses. In life, you can't save anyone if they're dragging you under. You have to save yourself first in order to be able to help anyone else.

So ask yourself, is she dragging you under? Because if she is, be friendly be supportive, but don't let her take you down.
posted by cleverevans at 11:50 AM on May 14, 2023 [12 favorites]

I would go to great lengths to never have a conversation with a person like that. You can keep testing them periodically to see if they’ve got their head pulled out of their ass yet, if you like, but I don’t personally have the buoyancy to take on a giant lead weight like that.
And… this is how I would talk/act if I really didn’t want to talk to someone. So just let them be by themselves.
posted by Vatnesine at 12:06 PM on May 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

There's also, "Oh, that makes me feel bad! I really loved them." Possibly followed by, "What do you like better?"

People saying that to me was part of what led to me finally figuring out why I should do better.
posted by amtho at 12:12 PM on May 14, 2023 [8 favorites]

She's not toxic, she's a hater! Some people's brand is being negative or contrarian. She sounds like a drag so I'd just limit interactions to basic greetings and try not to take her negativity personally.
posted by emd3737 at 12:21 PM on May 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

I feel like she cuts down everything I say--these are more general examples, but it's almost like she wants to contradict/negate everything I say.

These don't seem like fun interactions, but from your examples you're asking an open-ended question without any sort of opinion, so there's not actually anything to contradict here.

If you really need to talk to this person, don't invite their opinion. Some people don't enjoy conversations that start with questions because it puts them on the spot. If you want to have a conversation, instead of saying "have you heard of Band X?" try "I've been listening to Band X a lot lately, I really like the second to last album." But ONLY do this if inviting someone else's thoughts about Band X won't be annoying or upsetting. Discuss things that won't become issues if some random acquaintance does not share your point of view.

Checking a phone is a different thing. If someone did this all the time when I was making small talk, I'd just stop making small talk with them. They obviously aren't interested so why go through the motions? And to be clear, some people *can* be interested and still be checking their phone- it's just the way some people operate these days (though usually these people indicate that by keeping up their end of the conversation). But if you don't enjoy it you certainly don't have to engage this person.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:47 PM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

I’d consider her to be rude and annoying: I’d keep it cordial, as in as hello and a smile, and nothing beyond that unless you have to. It’s ok to stand around in awkward silence even; if she’s so motivated, she can take the conversational lead. There are negative people who are hilarious and fun to be around or even just curmudgeonly Eeyores who grow on you. Unfortunately for her. She’s neither but seems to be getting by just fine in life. As others have said, none of this sounds personal and it’s just how she is. You keep being you and try to focus your attention on the many people, familiar and strangers, who enjoy your company or at least are a bit more polite conversationalists.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:51 PM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

Some people are just assholes. It's okay to avoid them.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:55 PM on May 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

I’d be curious as to whether she does this to everyone, or just you. If it’s just you, it may be insecurity or that she feels threatened by you: yucking someone’s yum can serve as a shortcut to feeling superior because it makes the yucker the arbiter.

If it’s everyone, she’s just blunt and dislikes a lot of stuff you like. In that case she’s not your cup of tea and isn’t super sensitive to how this sort of negativity impacts some people.

But toxic (whatever that means?) isn’t a useful label here, I don’t think. I’m not actually sure what it means—you either have a relationship that works for you, a relationship that doesn’t work for you that you’re both willing to work on, or a relationship that doesn’t work for you that you don’t want to/can’t improve.

Interestingly I’ve heard a lot about “toxic positivity,” in which you’re made to feel inferior for disliking things. So be aware that once that label is in play it can get applied to you as well!
posted by kapers at 1:26 PM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

It doesn’t sound as if you get anything out of these interactions. So don’t feel obliged to engage with her.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:51 PM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

Does she do this with anyone else? I heard that some people do that to people they are attracted to as a type of "self-control". I've also seen some books claim that "neg-ing" someone is a type of flirting. But that's really not your problem.

If you don't get anything out of interacting with her, then stop doing it. No need to bump your head against the wall again and again.
posted by kschang at 2:12 PM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

I dunno. If she’s really an extrovert that might just be her communication style. If you want to keep talking to her, you could try letting her expand on her ideas rather than responding by, it sounds like, shutting down- like “oh, what don’t you like about them? What music do you like?” Or whatever. Try not to take it personally, or if you are going to take it personally stop talking to her about those things.
posted by wondermouse at 3:35 PM on May 14, 2023

Yeah, she sounds like a negative person with poor social skills. It's probably not aimed at you intentionally, but if you happen to be standing in front of it, you can still be affected by it. Life is too short to spend time on people who aren't willing to make the effort to be pleasant, no matter what their reasons are.

My response to such people is usually to just stop engaging beyond very basic politeness, e.g. if she greets you, just say "good morning" or whatever, and turn your attention elsewhere.

I have seen other, more socially energetic people reply to I-hate-it type comments with variations on "so, what do you like then?" The response usually gives an indication of whether or not the person is rude or just clueless. Depending on your tolerance/patience for either, you can use that info to determine your next step.
posted by rpfields at 3:54 PM on May 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

Yeah, just do not engage, beyond the bare minimum. You can't change her.

As for the phone thing: A general approach you could use with people like that is to just stop talking when they start looking at their phone. If they look up, wondering why, you can just say, "Sorry, it seemed like you must have been looking at something important, I'll wait till you're done."
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:01 PM on May 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

Some people are just ___________

"...not lucky enough to have been raised by caring, emotionally intelligent parents or in a school system that gives another adult any chance of sharing relevant wisdom."
posted by amtho at 4:10 PM on May 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: I appreciate all the thoughts and input. You've given me a lot to think about. Years of growing up in a dysfunctional family had convinced me that everything was my fault. It's taken me years of therapy to realize that people's weirdness is really all about them. There's still some weirdness floating about though. One of my friends told me, quite seriously, that I was a dowsing rod for douchebags [TM].That she would see things that even I didn't see about the way people treated me. However my therapist refuses to let me use that phrase as it is not my fault.I work very hard at being kind to people and that remembering that everything is not my fault.
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 5:10 PM on May 14, 2023 [5 favorites]

I think some people, a fair number of people, do that to gain a sense of superiority/ hierarchical status. I find it unpleasant, and when someone who I have to spend time with does this, I tend to give them quizzical looks, some pushback.

Her: That band sucks.
You don't like them; we danced our tootsies off last Friday and had a blast.
Her: I hate those people, they're idiots.
Gee that's too bad, my friend Pat has a show coming up; I'm looking forward to it.
Her: No, those people are idiots.
hmmmm, that's certainly an approach.
Her: *checks phone*
(to self: Wow, unbelievably rude and tacky)

A person who behaved this way to me was in a horrible personal mess. I was a friend until it got intolerable. Now they'd like to be friends again, and I'm not interested in being burned. Don't give too much of yourself to someone who doesn't value you.
posted by theora55 at 6:35 PM on May 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

"Fault" isn't really useful unless your main goal is to find someone to punish -- which really falls far, far behind my other priorities (feeling good, physical health, finding time to focus on things I care about). If someone is rude, is it their "fault"? There are a lot of things that have to go right for us to learn and use social skills -- if one of them doesn't happen, it's usually beyond our own control.
posted by amtho at 9:15 PM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

Not toxic, just grumpy and possibly one of the many who believe that small talk is annoying. I wouldn’t try to create a Very Special Moment where I draw them out of their shell and the grumpiness falls away. Here’s how I would handle it:

Them: hello
You: Hey, how’s it going?
Them: 🦇 life is pain and people are a scourge 🦇
You: Too bad. Try and have a good day!
posted by kimberussell at 3:16 AM on May 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

She sounds very young. Also, bonding over having similar tastes of what you hate is a thing. Some people love talking about how much they dislike xx. Again, they tend to skew young where they think it’s cool to bag other people taste in music or entertainment and sneer at them. She will probably grow out of it. You don’t have to hang out with her though or suffer through it. She’ll probably be embarrassed about it once she’s older and looks back on it.
posted by Jubey at 4:19 AM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

She's trying to shut down the conversation. Just leave her alone.
posted by nkknkk at 5:28 AM on May 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

You have an acquaintance with a conversational habit that you don't enjoy. A lot of people would find it annoying or feel deflated walking away from conversations like that. It's possible she has some degree of self awareness about it (and is perhaps using it to shut down conversation), or she might not. You're not doing something wrong to inspire this.

Do you want to be having in depth conversations with her? Is there any benefit to you to trying to have something other than a very distantly polite relationship? If you don't like talking to her, there's nothing wrong with just steering clear of her for the most part and being polite without sharing so much information when you run into her.

I have someone in my life who does something similar--in their case, they have a knee-jerk reaction where it seems like they almost have to "correct" anything I say. I also found it deflating and frustrating. However, I value this person for other reasons and want to have a pleasant relationship (but saw no benefit to pointing out their flaws to them). Once I started looking at it like, "this is just a thing they do" and realizing that it was something of almost comical proportions (like, they could correct me about where I was if I said I went somewhere this weekend or remarked on the current weather), it started to roll off me more. And more importantly, I stopped sharing things with them that I would feel bad about having argued with/invalidated. Our relationship is fine now, if not as close as I initially hoped it would be.
posted by Anyone's Ghost 16 at 10:35 AM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

I think it's worth thinking about why her negativity makes you feel so deflated. Ask yourself what you want out of this interaction. If the answer were just "networking" it wouldn't feel so emotionally charged.

My guess would be that you're reenacting childhood patterns. Like...If you're subconsciously stepping up each time to try and get her approval and you are casting around for THE opening that will win you her approval, and she instead shuts you down - no wonder you feel so bad.

When your opening gambit really carries the subtext of "please approve of me ", then you will naturally hear any negative reply to it as "no, your comment - and you - are worthless".

In reality, of course, her replies probably say something about her. Like any of the options mentioned above: "I hate smalltalk", "I want to seem sophisticated", "your accent reminds me of my mother in law", "leave me alone", "I bond by hating on stuff", "hating on stuff is my kneejerk reaction".

I don't carry the same baggage as you. If I figured out there was a pattern to her negativity, I'd either find someone better to talk to or I'd find it hilarious to see what else I vould come up with to draw her ire. Can I make her hate the color yellow? ChatGPT? Bunnies? Cumulus clouds?

Either way, the lady is allowed to not like you, you know. It says nothing about your worthiness, and it's time you picked a much more pleasant person to network with. This is a choice you can make that in no way depends on her.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:56 AM on May 15, 2023

I don’t know about toxic, but she sounds annoying and maybe not very self-aware.

If you want you could ask “okay, what band/store/etc do you like?” Just to shift the conversation.

But honestly I’d just limit interactions with her. Perform basic workplace politeness and leave it at that.
posted by bunderful at 5:55 AM on May 16, 2023

Response by poster: Is s/he being funny? Because I thought I made it up.
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 12:12 PM on May 16, 2023