Why do people think autism means being bad at “conceptual thinking”?

May 13, 2023 5:17 PM

I keep on reading that kids on the spectrum “may struggle with math and writing as the subjects become more conceptual in middle school.” A teacher even tried to write this into my kid’s IEP (I deleted it.) There’s no evidence my kid has problems grasping higher order concepts or theories now and I have no reason to think that will be true in the future. Is there something I’m missing?
posted by haptic_avenger to Education (25 answers total)

Response by poster: Here is an example of what I mean.
posted by haptic_avenger at 5:18 PM on May 13, 2023

I'm guessing they are not using the word "conceptual" in the usual sense. They may mean "indirect" or something having to do with theory of mind. There isn't really a word for whatever they're talking about, so somehow "conceptual" and/or "abstract" got sucked into the conversation.

There need to be clearer stories or definitions showing what these words mean, and showing what these educators mean, and if they're different a different word should be proposed.
posted by amtho at 5:24 PM on May 13, 2023

I know for me, school was extremely easy when I was mostly memorizing facts and applying rules by rote, and I experienced a fairly significant academic hiccup when I had to figure out how to make arguments and synthesize facts into broad conclusions. I agree that there may be a theory-of-mind thing coming into play here where it's harder to do these things because you can't imagine being a person who needs an argument made to them. In particular I remember feeling like writing proofs for math class was so, so frustrating, like it should have been easy but I found it almost impossible, for years, for reasons I really couldn't explain. Like, just tell me what's true and what isn't, don't make me show the work in this slow, step-by-step way! I could memorize all the axioms and the things I was proving felt obviously true to me, but the path from here to there was hard for me to visualize.

I got my head around it eventually, and actually ended up being a (mediocre) math major, but it took me several more years to get there than my age peers.

I'm not sure if that's what's meant here, but it seems...not impossible?
posted by potrzebie at 5:46 PM on May 13, 2023 [5 favorites]

It’s a terrible word; some autistic people have trouble abstracting a rule from a specific instance but it doesn’t mean they have trouble with the concept.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:08 PM on May 13, 2023 [5 favorites]

FWIW math in middle school becomes more abstract (e.g. solve for x) than elementary school math (e.g. add 2 apples and 3 oranges). It’s not unusual for students who were on the math bandwagon in elementary school to fall off the math bandwagon in middle school. A charitable interpretation of this inclusion of the aforementioned statement is that the school is trying to be proactive.
posted by oceano at 6:20 PM on May 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

Is there something I’m missing?

The words "may" and "spectrum" and that you're trying to generalise from a sample of one?
posted by some little punk in a rocket at 6:21 PM on May 13, 2023 [7 favorites]

As you have probably already experienced, autism is not really spectrum.This discussion maps out seven different dimensions, each one of which can be more or less impacted for any given person.

The school is telling you that students with autism MAY struggle with math and writing as the subjects become more conceptual (maybe better described as requires more abstract thinking) as the student get older. That may be true statement on the face of it, but that doesn't mean it is true for your kid - there are certainly people who have autism are able to do excellent college-level abstract thinking. As I said, the characteristics of autism are different for each person.. On the other hand, your kid may do fine up until the point where they don't. So, it makes sense to watch how they are doing as the work gets harder. At the same time, I would be concerned if someone at school is predicting limitations for your child when there is no evidence that is happening for your specific kid. I think you were right to challenge having that in your kid's IEP plan where there is no evidence for it since it seems to be creating an unnecessary negative label. (However, you might want to reconsider if it somehow gets them positive support that would prevent future problems.)
posted by metahawk at 7:36 PM on May 13, 2023

It may be useful to consider that a lot of autistic people (myself included) struggle to understand pointing. There’s a visual processing element, certainly, but there’s also just… all the things a person could be pointing to. If my spouse points and says “look at this!” my brain can’t parse the relative importance of things in that general direction. Is he indicating the middle distance or the horizon? Is something unusual there or is it something expected but worth looking at? I have no idea! I need him to say, “look at this tree” or whatever. Something similar can happen with conceptual ideas. It’s not conceptual thinking itself, it’s the parameters or context. The Indiana example is actually pretty useful—even though its wording veers into “autism means misbehaving” territory—because it’s a super common conflict allistic adults get into with autistic kids (and, ahem, adults). Namely, if an autistic person does something they think is appropriate/harmless/welcome/on-task, and an allistic person says “don’t do that!” the autistic person has to figure out what “that” is and why the allistic person doesn’t want them to do it. (Oh my god especially when the autistic person is a kid in school.) If something makes total sense in my mind, it’s hard for me to conceptualize a problem with it based on “don’t”—but if someone says, “please don’t do X because I prefer Y” I can much more easily conceptualize that X isn’t a problem for me but is a problem for them, and what else might be a problem for them, and how I can proceed. And I may still struggle to generalize in ways that surprise allistic people.

I understand your concern about describing your kid as struggling with conceptualization. I do think it’s useful and important to communicate with allistic adults about the additional context or information your kid may need in order to engage in conceptual thinking on demand.
posted by theotherdurassister at 8:10 PM on May 13, 2023 [18 favorites]

This statement itself is an example of poor neurotypical communication skills. Autistic people are not bad at conceptual thinking. Autistic people can be bad at grasping new concepts when they are communicated poorly. Things that contribute to this are our literal thinking style and tendency to translate verbal concepts into images -- since poorly-phrased statements often have multiple possible interpretations, alighting on an interpretation different from the one intended by the speaker can lead to an increasingly entrenched and frustrating miscommunication. Hannah Gadsby describes this effect in the context of a childhood grammar lesson. [6-and-a-half-minute YouTube video]
posted by heatherlogan at 9:36 PM on May 13, 2023 [15 favorites]

“may struggle with math and writing as the subjects become more conceptual in middle school.”
Replace 'conceptual' with 'abstract' and that could be a learning plan comment for some of my students.

This statement itself is an example of poor neurotypical communication skills.
Agree. It relies on inference.
posted by Thella at 11:33 PM on May 13, 2023 [4 favorites]

It's not "more conceptual", it's "less literal".

In the case of writing this may mean trying to parse symbolism, which is an integral part of a lot of good non-fiction writing but is something autistic people generally struggle with. It's unlikely to mean "autistic people can't understand concepts and apply them" because that is evidently untrue for most autistic people (and if they do mean that then they're just plain wrong).

This is probably a clumsy attempt to highlight a generalisation about autistic people's penchant for logic, literalism, and facts, over more vague or interpretative things like symbolism, metaphor, and allusion.
posted by underclocked at 12:11 AM on May 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

As someone who once had an IEP, may I encourage you not to delete things like this? You deleted and now are asking for input. Which is great! But it ALSO means that because you deleted it, your kid isn’t *legally entitled* to the school making sure that they receive appropriate instruction. If your kid DOES struggle with math as it changes, it is very useful and good to have that codified in the IEP so that they can get the individual attention to make sure they don’t fall behind.

I am bringing this up partially because you seem quite offended that your kid may have difficulty with this, to the point where you deleted an accessibility option from the plate before you even sought more information. There is nothing *wrong* with autistic brains working like this. It’s not something you need to protect your kid from. The point of an IEP is to make sure that the school is obligated to meet a child’s individual needs. It’s not a blackmark to have those needs. You want everything in that IEP that can possibly be crammed in, and anything that’s unnecessary is just an easy checkbox of fulfilled obligation. But anything not in it, well, the school gets to turn around and say that they met the requirements of the IEP.
posted by Bottlecap at 12:59 AM on May 14, 2023 [23 favorites]

Response by poster: The words "may" and "spectrum" and that you're trying to generalise from a sample of one?

Well it’s my child’s *individualized* educational plan. So yes, I expect it to actually be tightly related to his needs and not based in speculative ideas about what he cannot do based on the autism diagnosis. Maybe he’ll have relatively more difficulty in Algebra but I absolutely won’t let him go into it pre-judged with no evidence.
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:24 AM on May 14, 2023

Response by poster: Also no need for concern about the IEP. I am very well versed in the law and he gets all the supports he needs. This was part of a narrative section that has nothing to do with the goals and services, but could have resulted in his incorrect placement in a lower math class or being generally underestimated. I don’t see any reason why we should saddle him with speculative challenges when his actual challenges are quite clear.
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:36 AM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

I second what Bottlecap said about going for “more is better” rather than “less is better” in your son’s IEP. Based on your previous asks, I know you have a great son who’s at a school that’s not ideal even if they’re trying to be supportive given their funding limitations. Also, they know the middle school he’ll be attending and perhaps their math support is not ideal; they can’t tell you the gen ed math teachers suck but they can put in key wording that will guarantee him a spot with the better teacher based on how the school/district defines FAPE. For me as a teacher, the whole point of an IEP for most students is the acknowledgment that their intellectual ability is far greater than their current or potential performance due to factors beyond their control. To me, the teachers are not saying to it son will definitely struggle because he’s on the Autism spectrum but rather “let’s make sure we are ready to provide supports if this smart math kid finds himself struggling so he continues to do well!” A lot of smart kids struggle in middle school math and I wish all could have this chance for additional support instead of silently thinking they’re no longer good at math or just start disliking it.

I don’t know how old you are but I’m almost 40 and grew up at a time where the designation of Special Education was really misunderstood and sometimes if not often used for bad. But times are so different, thank goodness: not perfect but better. It’s also a way to hold a school system that you’re not happy with legally responsible for doing their share. It sucks that you have to go through all of this and to feel like you’re a mama bear fighting alone for your son — it is exhausting and you have been fighting the good fight! But it sounds like right now you, with the best of intentions, are so used to fighting against the system (understandably!!) that it’s made it hard to know when something within the system can help you (also understandable!!) As a public school teacher for 16 years, mostly high and now middle, I love seeing students on the autism spectrum blossom as teens and young adults. I would say that there’s a direct correlation between extra interventions at a younger age and academic and social success in the later years of high school. As an elementary schooler, you had to the bulk of support as his mom; now as a middle schooler, you can truly be part of his team (I hope!), always the most important support person but no longer alone. I have seen so many kids go from struggling emotionally and academically to being the coolest, super well-rounded young adult! I also have sat through IEP meetings where the case manager felt like a hot mess to me and I was grateful others were present to push through things. Fortunately I’d say that the vast majority of special Ed case managers are caring and competent! But you’re right to question things and always be ready to fight.

The transition to middle school, academically and socially, is so hard (and exciting!!) for all, neurotypical and neurodivergent kids alike, and even more so in the time of COVID and more. School systems really fucked up in not having offered enough emotional, behavioral, and academic support to kids with IEPs during the start and height of the pandemic. It wasn’t intentional but it wasn’t good. You parents had to take on way too much and we’re all still trying to make up for lost time. The good news is that it’s better for him to start middle school now than even a year or two ago, and I know with a great parent like you, even with bumps along the way and ups and downs, he’s going to succeed!! Lots of <3 to you both!!
posted by smorgasbord at 7:38 AM on May 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

[I was typing my answer on my phone and didn’t see the updates from you, OP. I hope that, even if the advice doesn’t apply, the additional voice of support does!]
posted by smorgasbord at 7:39 AM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: Ha, I actually dug into the research and I found this super interesting paper that divides kids with autism into different subgroups of math achievement. My kid (so far) appears to align with the average/high achievement subgroup based on his neuropsychological testing that shows strength in working memory and problem solving. And the school’s own testing shows him as strong math problem solving ability.

I loved the Hannah Gadsby clip. What I think that shows is the creativity of autistic thinking coupled with the (autistic strength) of not being scared by social constraints to express yourself.
posted by haptic_avenger at 8:02 AM on May 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

I’d encourage you to think about how documenting the possibility of struggle with conceptual/abstract thinking could help your kid get placed (or stay) in appropriately advanced classes. If a kid struggles with abstract thinking, that suggests a need for supports in their ideal level of, say, English, rather than a need to bump them down to an easier class. In other words, a kid who is most appropriately placed in a lower level English class wouldn’t do well in a higher level class with supports (e.g., reminders/coaching/one-on-one time to cue abstract rather than literal thinking). A kid who is appropriately placed in a higher level English class will succeed with supports, but may appear to need a lower level if those support needs aren’t met.

(Also, just throwing this out there as a former autistic honors student who got a super skewed understanding of education because I was praised for being in honors classes rather than for actually challenging myself… it’s important for kids, especially autistic kids, to understand that whatever is challenging for them is where they should be—not the class they can get an A in, not the most advanced class they can get into, but whatever class presents a level of challenge they can meaningfully engage with. I learned this the hard way in college.)
posted by theotherdurassister at 8:06 AM on May 14, 2023 [5 favorites]

I just took a deeper look at that Indiana University document that you linked and hoooeeee is it ever filled with hatred and dehumanization.
posted by heatherlogan at 8:41 AM on May 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

(I hope this isn’t too much back and forth.) If I seem eager to label your kid as possibly struggling this way it’s because I am—in general—an excellent English student, able to engage creatively in abstract thinking and conceptualizing… except when I’m not. Understanding these moments of concreteness or being stuck in literal thinking as part of my autism has been life-changing. I often say it’s not that I can’t see the forest for the trees, it’s that I catalog the trees to see the forest. And usually I’m fast and creative and curious, but occasionally I see a palm tree where there shouldn’t be one and suddenly my brain stops. That’s when I need someone to nudge me, “loosen your grip on the how’s and why’s of a palm tree in a Wisconsin forest and keep going…” Your kid might never experience this, but it could come up at some point.
posted by theotherdurassister at 9:13 AM on May 14, 2023 [5 favorites]

Inferential thinking.

A comment above makes me consider that perhaps what is meant in these texts, often, rather than "conceptual", is "inferential".
posted by amtho at 12:17 PM on May 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

I have autism. I did fine with basic algebra through 8th grade. Once I hit actual Algebra classes in high school my brain just did not get it because of the way it was being presented to me. So while things may seem very good and fine right now - it could change. Which is why you want "may struggle with math and writing as the subjects become more conceptual in middle school" in there. I didn't have an IEP and I wasn't diagnosed until super late in life but it would have been great if anyone had been thinking that way for me. Everyone has struggles and everyone has struggles that change over time.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 4:13 PM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

I think the dynamic that some might be missing is that if your kid is 2E and needs to be in higher level math, he’s already going to have a tough road getting a proper math placement just by virtue of his autism diagnosis. I think you’re right not to make that watering down easier for them to justify. I presume an unmet need for math remediation, should it declare itself, can be added to next year’s IEP.

This is a bit tangential, but I learned recently through casual conversation with a teacher friend that, "LRE" notwithstanding, her school de facto puts anyone with a disability diagnosis into a single classroom, to make the teachers’ and admins’ own lives easier. I would not assume that an unusual combination of needs means a student will get assigned to the most skilled teacher.
posted by eirias at 6:22 PM on May 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

Mod note: A couple deleted. Hi, OP, please keep in mind that Ask Metafilter isn't for back and forth discussion on a topic, but to get answers to a specific question. It's fine to pop in to clarify if people want or need more info, but otherwise best to just relax, take in the answers, and determine for yourself what is useful for your purposes.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:37 PM on May 14, 2023

I'm autistic with a good side of ADHD. I got BETTER at conceptual and abstract thinking as I went through school, university, grad school. But I never had real trouble with it to begin with. My challenges were more around talking about what I'd studied as well as keeping focus on what I was reading.

I suspect, as heatherlogan points out, the study on which they're relying is deeply flawed. I would encourage you to ask them to question their own assumptions about autism, repeatedly if necessary. If you can find research that points to the opposite of what they're saying, preferably by autistic researchers, so much the better.

I'll ask around among my fellow autists to see if anyone's heard of studies on point.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 3:46 AM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]