Help me think about kids and schools
May 12, 2023 8:45 AM Subscribe
How should I think about my kids attending schools very different from the ones I attended?
I (male) grew up in a midwestern white flight suburb and went to what American white people call Good Public Schools. I have, to one's surprise and certainly not my own, become an academic. The happiest times of my life have been spent in the intellectual ferment of elite educational institutions.
I now live in a small city in the southern mid-Atlantic with a large and diverse immigrant population. My (female) spouse and I love it here and may well live here until we retire or die. For the last two years, my three children have attended schools that are majority non-white and where about a third of the kids speak English at home and two-thirds get free lunch (my kids spent the pandemic, mostly online, in a different public school system). I have gradually noticed that the schools are able to provide slightly less in the way of extracurricular and enrichment activities than what I remember from my own K-8 years, but the difference has felt fairly small. The community life of the schools has felt great, and our adult friend groups include both fellow parents and teachers and staff.
Yesterday, I saw this infographic linked from the NYT and was quite surprised to discover that my kids' school district is among the lowest in the country in terms of average reading and math test scores--in the 10th-15th percentile, about three grade levels below the national average. They are, I suspect, schools my parents would never have sent me and my siblings to.
I feel generalized stress and worry about this, but am not sure how to think about it. I have been pretty deeply socialized to feel that I am Disadvantaging My Kids if I send them to Not Good Schools. So I feel that way. Should I? (If I accept the postulate that educational attainment and household income are Good Things, I can pose this question in a quantitative econ-soc-y way: controlling for parental education and income, how much effect does going to schools with low test scores have on educational attainment and income in children? But that leaves an awful lot out--I use Sarcastic Capitalization above because I believe my kids are in good schools, though not schools whose students score well on math and reading tests.)
It doesn't seem likely that we will move, or that we will choose to send our kids to private schools, or that the schools in my city will change very much in the next ten years. These are very likely the schools that my kids will graduate from.
I am very familiar with progressive bougie white people having lots of opinions about education and inequality in America and then making decisions with their own kids that are very different from what their stated beliefs entail. Looks like that's not going to be me! But on some level it seems that I wish it were? I welcome insight of any kind, but especially personal/autobiographical comments from folks who have been either the parent or the kid in versions of this scenario.
I (male) grew up in a midwestern white flight suburb and went to what American white people call Good Public Schools. I have, to one's surprise and certainly not my own, become an academic. The happiest times of my life have been spent in the intellectual ferment of elite educational institutions.
I now live in a small city in the southern mid-Atlantic with a large and diverse immigrant population. My (female) spouse and I love it here and may well live here until we retire or die. For the last two years, my three children have attended schools that are majority non-white and where about a third of the kids speak English at home and two-thirds get free lunch (my kids spent the pandemic, mostly online, in a different public school system). I have gradually noticed that the schools are able to provide slightly less in the way of extracurricular and enrichment activities than what I remember from my own K-8 years, but the difference has felt fairly small. The community life of the schools has felt great, and our adult friend groups include both fellow parents and teachers and staff.
Yesterday, I saw this infographic linked from the NYT and was quite surprised to discover that my kids' school district is among the lowest in the country in terms of average reading and math test scores--in the 10th-15th percentile, about three grade levels below the national average. They are, I suspect, schools my parents would never have sent me and my siblings to.
I feel generalized stress and worry about this, but am not sure how to think about it. I have been pretty deeply socialized to feel that I am Disadvantaging My Kids if I send them to Not Good Schools. So I feel that way. Should I? (If I accept the postulate that educational attainment and household income are Good Things, I can pose this question in a quantitative econ-soc-y way: controlling for parental education and income, how much effect does going to schools with low test scores have on educational attainment and income in children? But that leaves an awful lot out--I use Sarcastic Capitalization above because I believe my kids are in good schools, though not schools whose students score well on math and reading tests.)
It doesn't seem likely that we will move, or that we will choose to send our kids to private schools, or that the schools in my city will change very much in the next ten years. These are very likely the schools that my kids will graduate from.
I am very familiar with progressive bougie white people having lots of opinions about education and inequality in America and then making decisions with their own kids that are very different from what their stated beliefs entail. Looks like that's not going to be me! But on some level it seems that I wish it were? I welcome insight of any kind, but especially personal/autobiographical comments from folks who have been either the parent or the kid in versions of this scenario.
Also, almost all schools have honors programs and that’s where a lot of the white privileged kids end up (overrepresented) at these schools. And there are magnet schools with bilingual programs, arts programs, and more. You can definitely look into their offerings and choose accordingly.
posted by smorgasbord at 9:05 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 9:05 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you so much, and a brief clarification: we are part of the 1/3 of households that do speak English at home, not that don't speak English at home.
posted by sy at 9:13 AM on May 12, 2023
posted by sy at 9:13 AM on May 12, 2023
Faced with a similar situation, I listened to and read Nikole Hannah-Jones's school segregation reporting and stories, read Learning in Public by Courtney Martin (which happens to be about my neighborhood school, a school we didn't end up at) and the Nice White Parents podcast.
In the end, we are in a large urban public school system, and we lotteried our way into one of the schools that the white and wealthy parents tend to want. I have some mixed feelings about the whole thing (and am seriously considering moving to the next town over, which has a less-burdened public school system), but I also think that's a natural part of participating in any public system. I think it's good to lean into what's good in any situation (there's a lot of good in your situation that is not measured by test scores) and then try to ameliorate the bad in whatever way you can (and if you have resources, there are ways to scaffold your child's learning experience).
posted by vunder at 9:21 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
In the end, we are in a large urban public school system, and we lotteried our way into one of the schools that the white and wealthy parents tend to want. I have some mixed feelings about the whole thing (and am seriously considering moving to the next town over, which has a less-burdened public school system), but I also think that's a natural part of participating in any public system. I think it's good to lean into what's good in any situation (there's a lot of good in your situation that is not measured by test scores) and then try to ameliorate the bad in whatever way you can (and if you have resources, there are ways to scaffold your child's learning experience).
posted by vunder at 9:21 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ireland: For long and long, it has been True that kids, particularly girls, do better in single sex schools. Because this is True, explanations have been put forward: something something distracted by boys etc. Well it turns out that, when you control for family back-ground and income, it is utter bollix NotTrue. hereabouts, middle class parents send their kids to [often fee paying] single sex schools and (surprise) these kids do well academically - like their folks. If you have books at home and are in the habit of reading and reasoning, then so will your kids [unless they decide to be a chef or carpenter].
posted by BobTheScientist at 9:25 AM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 9:25 AM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: The research consensus seems to be that socioeconomically disadvantaged kids benefit significantly from going to a school with a higher share of higher-achieving/more advantaged students, but the opposite is not true: more advantaged students do fine regardless of what school they go to.
I buy that, but only up to a point. The research only reflects actual enrollment patterns. The number of kids from advantaged families who go to truly failing schools - where there are only a handful of kids reading on grade level - is vanishingly small, so the research is not going to show those effects, and it's just common sense that even the most advantaged child is going to learn much less in that environment.
A few other thoughts:
- The school environment matters at least as much the achievement levels. If the other kids are disruptive or if your child feels unsafe, it's going to affect their learning. My child was not happy or thriving in the elementary class where he had to worry if kids were going to start throwing chairs again. Lower achievement in a well-run school is less of an issue.
- It varies greatly based on grade level. Having classmates in kindergarten who can't read isn't going to make as much of a difference as having classmates in middle or high school who are 4 years behind.
- It depends on your willingness to teach your own child, or "supplement" in the lingo. Motivated kids with motivated and educated parents can do a lot of learning outside of school to make up for gaps. If you are not confident about the quality of instruction, you can always do more. (I know that neither I nor my kids are that motivated, which is why we send them to a school with high enough academic standards that all they have to do is take the classes and do the work.)
- Test scores are good for evaluating large groups of students on a consistent basis, and they provide some information about individual students, but they are a poor substitute for daily check-ins. Are you reviewing their schoolwork?
- Talk to as large a variety of parents in your community as you can - those who left the public schools, those who stayed, those who are more or less educated, those with older and younger children. They will tell you much more than we can.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:25 AM on May 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
I buy that, but only up to a point. The research only reflects actual enrollment patterns. The number of kids from advantaged families who go to truly failing schools - where there are only a handful of kids reading on grade level - is vanishingly small, so the research is not going to show those effects, and it's just common sense that even the most advantaged child is going to learn much less in that environment.
A few other thoughts:
- The school environment matters at least as much the achievement levels. If the other kids are disruptive or if your child feels unsafe, it's going to affect their learning. My child was not happy or thriving in the elementary class where he had to worry if kids were going to start throwing chairs again. Lower achievement in a well-run school is less of an issue.
- It varies greatly based on grade level. Having classmates in kindergarten who can't read isn't going to make as much of a difference as having classmates in middle or high school who are 4 years behind.
- It depends on your willingness to teach your own child, or "supplement" in the lingo. Motivated kids with motivated and educated parents can do a lot of learning outside of school to make up for gaps. If you are not confident about the quality of instruction, you can always do more. (I know that neither I nor my kids are that motivated, which is why we send them to a school with high enough academic standards that all they have to do is take the classes and do the work.)
- Test scores are good for evaluating large groups of students on a consistent basis, and they provide some information about individual students, but they are a poor substitute for daily check-ins. Are you reviewing their schoolwork?
- Talk to as large a variety of parents in your community as you can - those who left the public schools, those who stayed, those who are more or less educated, those with older and younger children. They will tell you much more than we can.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:25 AM on May 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Thanks for clarifying: I’m a teacher reading this on my phone at lunch break and sometimes miss stuff. FWIW I teach in a special program at a diverse public school in what’s considered one of the best US school districts. Our population of ELs is 5% but many families speak languages other than English at home. Do I think this school or its education is better than the less prestige schools I’ve taught at? Hell no. Also, that elementary school I went to was like 90% non-English speaking at home and it changed me for the better, like most valuable education experience of my life. School is about more than textbooks; again, as long as it’s safe, a diverse social environment is really beneficial for all.
posted by smorgasbord at 9:27 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 9:27 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Hi, I am a white person who attended schools full of all races of kids and I cannot overstate how fundamentally that shaped my views on racism.
The world outside of school is FULL of situations that will encourage your children to segregate themselves from people who aren't white. They will likely do very well in any school they attend if they have good parental support and you would be doing them a favor if you choose to give them the opportunity to be a part of a diverse school community.
If you care about raising your white kid to be anti-racist: White people have been passing down their bigotry for too long. The first thing you can do to break the cycle for your child is to let go of your fears and allow them to learn with schoolmates who are not white.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 9:28 AM on May 12, 2023 [30 favorites]
The world outside of school is FULL of situations that will encourage your children to segregate themselves from people who aren't white. They will likely do very well in any school they attend if they have good parental support and you would be doing them a favor if you choose to give them the opportunity to be a part of a diverse school community.
If you care about raising your white kid to be anti-racist: White people have been passing down their bigotry for too long. The first thing you can do to break the cycle for your child is to let go of your fears and allow them to learn with schoolmates who are not white.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 9:28 AM on May 12, 2023 [30 favorites]
Best answer: So much to think about here, but one take is this:
If your kids were really struggling, they would need "Really Good" schools. They'd really benefit from super strong special education resources, rich extracurricular opportunities, etc.
But if your kids aren't struggling academically, this environment actually offers them an opportunity to shine and lead that they might not get in a school system crammed full of rich overachievers.
I was admitted to an elite Ivy out of my middling small-town public school. Only much later did I realize that to an admissions committee, I probably looked like some diamond in the rough who excelled despite my educational milieu, when in fact I just had highly-educated parents. I got outsize attention from teachers and gatekeepers because I stood out academically in the environment I was in, and it accrued to my benefit. At an elite private, I'd have been a middle- or bottom-of-the-pack kid, (subjectively) suffering from my lack of overseas summer experiences and private tutors.
It's gross, but that was my experience so I'm putting it into your thought stew.
posted by Ausamor at 9:31 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
If your kids were really struggling, they would need "Really Good" schools. They'd really benefit from super strong special education resources, rich extracurricular opportunities, etc.
But if your kids aren't struggling academically, this environment actually offers them an opportunity to shine and lead that they might not get in a school system crammed full of rich overachievers.
I was admitted to an elite Ivy out of my middling small-town public school. Only much later did I realize that to an admissions committee, I probably looked like some diamond in the rough who excelled despite my educational milieu, when in fact I just had highly-educated parents. I got outsize attention from teachers and gatekeepers because I stood out academically in the environment I was in, and it accrued to my benefit. At an elite private, I'd have been a middle- or bottom-of-the-pack kid, (subjectively) suffering from my lack of overseas summer experiences and private tutors.
It's gross, but that was my experience so I'm putting it into your thought stew.
posted by Ausamor at 9:31 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
RobinofFrocksley couldn’t have said it better: I feel the same way about my experiences and I will be eternally grateful to my parents for having given me the opportunity!
posted by smorgasbord at 9:31 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 9:31 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh and I should add that my mom grew up in a very fancy suburb and raised me in the city and sent me to the schools she sent me very deliberately. My grandmother was furious that I didn't want her to pay my tuition at the local white private girls high school and even more furious that my mom was in my corner.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 9:31 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 9:31 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
almost all schools have honors programs and that’s where a lot of the white privileged kids end up (overrepresented) at these schools
I've written more about this before, but this was my experience. Aside from our different races, it was actually a pretty similar experience to my black, Wharton grad, EGOT-winning classmate, if that makes you feel any better. He seems to have done a little more with our shared experiences than I have, though.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:34 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've written more about this before, but this was my experience. Aside from our different races, it was actually a pretty similar experience to my black, Wharton grad, EGOT-winning classmate, if that makes you feel any better. He seems to have done a little more with our shared experiences than I have, though.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:34 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I went to an elite private high school and my kids are in schools where the demographics are similar to what you describe, although in a very different context (educational funding in Ontario is different). In some years those schools have scored lower than I would like, particularly in math.
Our experience has been really positive around a lot of the non-academic benefits of school. My kids are very comfortable interacting with lots of different people and code-switching at times.
To me this is a huge life skill as well as like, a benefit to themselves as human beings, and while I had exposure to different cultures, I wasn't comfortable with say, sporty people (ironic as I have been working in martial arts for 6 years), to my detriment. I think it will position them as empathetic artists/coworkers/managers/leaders and I think this is a great outcome. Also...I've learned there's not really that much scary there.
The worst case of bullying in my city that I know of was at an elite private school.
I will say both kids are in special programs (visual arts, french) and that does do a kind of filtering for peers that are "into interesting stuff." Some things I would look for in your shoes would be specialized programs -- here that would be IB programs or other specializations but in the US I think AP programs would be kind of in the same slot?
If your concern is extra-curriculars, personally I would just fund that by finding them programs, or what some parents and I did one year was run a Lego Robotics club ourselves.
If your concern is the academics they're getting, you can check up on them either by having them go through external "testing" (like at a tutoring centre) or have them do some work with you at home. We did side eye the math scores and then spring for extra math outside of school, with mixed results.
Anyways, I wouldn't stress about this in general. I would just keep checking in with your kids.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:35 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Our experience has been really positive around a lot of the non-academic benefits of school. My kids are very comfortable interacting with lots of different people and code-switching at times.
To me this is a huge life skill as well as like, a benefit to themselves as human beings, and while I had exposure to different cultures, I wasn't comfortable with say, sporty people (ironic as I have been working in martial arts for 6 years), to my detriment. I think it will position them as empathetic artists/coworkers/managers/leaders and I think this is a great outcome. Also...I've learned there's not really that much scary there.
The worst case of bullying in my city that I know of was at an elite private school.
I will say both kids are in special programs (visual arts, french) and that does do a kind of filtering for peers that are "into interesting stuff." Some things I would look for in your shoes would be specialized programs -- here that would be IB programs or other specializations but in the US I think AP programs would be kind of in the same slot?
If your concern is extra-curriculars, personally I would just fund that by finding them programs, or what some parents and I did one year was run a Lego Robotics club ourselves.
If your concern is the academics they're getting, you can check up on them either by having them go through external "testing" (like at a tutoring centre) or have them do some work with you at home. We did side eye the math scores and then spring for extra math outside of school, with mixed results.
Anyways, I wouldn't stress about this in general. I would just keep checking in with your kids.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:35 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think you have gotten good advice in this thread. One thing I will add. Research into student achievement has generally found that teacher effects are bigger than school effects. What this means is that school quality is less important than teacher quality. So my general advice is for parents to get to know their school really well. In almost every school there are better and worse teachers for your kids. Get involved and know which teachers are the right ones for your kid and then make sure you get those teachers. Here is a chart that lists all sorts of things that have an effect on student achievement. Generalized school effects are way down the list below most of the teacher specific effects.
I will note, the biggest effect on that list is collective teacher efficacy. Although that is something that might be classified as a "school" influence, it won't be reflected in school ratings or rankings.
posted by bove at 9:38 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I will note, the biggest effect on that list is collective teacher efficacy. Although that is something that might be classified as a "school" influence, it won't be reflected in school ratings or rankings.
posted by bove at 9:38 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am white and well-educated and went to Fancy Suburban Public Schools. My kids went/go to distinctly not fancy public schools. I am sometimes jealous of the resources at the wealthier, whiter schools. However I have not missed keeping up with the Jones at the rich schools. And, my kids have benefited tremendously from attending their schools, and I don't regret these choices. Here's what I've learned over many years, with one kid just past high school and another about to graduate high school.
-Our kids have tons of advantages growing up in households with books and parents who value education. This is one of the biggest predictors of them doing well. You could take our kids and plop them in just about any school and they'd likely get the same or similar test scores.
-In fact, test scores tend to correlate to demographics. So those scores you are seeing relate to the other factors you have discussed.
-Indeed, the skills that teachers have in those lower-performing schools might mean they are better teachers! I distinctly remember a conversation I had with a friend who had been a teacher and administrator in both the top notch school system in my college town and in the less well regarded county schools. He said that kids in the college town school did so well because they had resources and the teachers didn't have to be good for those kids to excel, while the county teachers seemed much better and more skilled. My kids' schools have excellent teachers. Don't make the mistake of thinking that it's the schools with high scores that have good teachers.
-Also (and this is super important), it's a different world now. Your kids, as privileged white kids, will learn so much at their public schools interacting with racially and socioeconomically diverse classmates. I am going to couch this in capitalism terms: this is a serious competitive advantage. There are valuable skills your kids will have that the rich white kids shrouded from interacting from poor and diverse kids will not have. If you take your kids out of this school, you are not preparing them for a world where they know how to interact with anyone other than rich white kids. Consider this part of their education (and I mean this sincerely).
In short: it's likely the teachers at your kids' schools are quite good, and those teaching abilities will benefit your kids as much or more than the other kids; your kids will benefit from learning and being friends with their classmates; you can spin this into a specific choice you have made to teach your kids your values, and to improve upon the way you were raised.
The old ideas we had growing up about suburban "good" schools were rooted in white supremacy. I can't emphasize that enough. So that's something to interrogate very seriously.
You might know that before the 1619 project, Nikole Hannah-Jones wrote extensively about public schools and segregation. Her work is excellent. Please look for this work, perhaps starting here, with her story about her own daughter. And yes, listen to the podcast Nice White Parents.
Also, please know: if you never saw those scores, you wouldn't be anxious, but you already thought the schools were good. This is not an emergency to be resolved immediately. Those scores didn't change the schools; it's just information you didn't have.
I love that my kids have a diverse array of friends. When I see the creativity and diversity at my younger kid's high school, I am honestly a bit self-satisfied at the choices we made. They spend time in households with kids whose parents were born all over the world. They move with ease in a multicultural environment. That's not something I can give them. They would have a lot less if they had been in richer schools with kids mostly from households like ours.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:52 AM on May 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
-Our kids have tons of advantages growing up in households with books and parents who value education. This is one of the biggest predictors of them doing well. You could take our kids and plop them in just about any school and they'd likely get the same or similar test scores.
-In fact, test scores tend to correlate to demographics. So those scores you are seeing relate to the other factors you have discussed.
-Indeed, the skills that teachers have in those lower-performing schools might mean they are better teachers! I distinctly remember a conversation I had with a friend who had been a teacher and administrator in both the top notch school system in my college town and in the less well regarded county schools. He said that kids in the college town school did so well because they had resources and the teachers didn't have to be good for those kids to excel, while the county teachers seemed much better and more skilled. My kids' schools have excellent teachers. Don't make the mistake of thinking that it's the schools with high scores that have good teachers.
-Also (and this is super important), it's a different world now. Your kids, as privileged white kids, will learn so much at their public schools interacting with racially and socioeconomically diverse classmates. I am going to couch this in capitalism terms: this is a serious competitive advantage. There are valuable skills your kids will have that the rich white kids shrouded from interacting from poor and diverse kids will not have. If you take your kids out of this school, you are not preparing them for a world where they know how to interact with anyone other than rich white kids. Consider this part of their education (and I mean this sincerely).
In short: it's likely the teachers at your kids' schools are quite good, and those teaching abilities will benefit your kids as much or more than the other kids; your kids will benefit from learning and being friends with their classmates; you can spin this into a specific choice you have made to teach your kids your values, and to improve upon the way you were raised.
The old ideas we had growing up about suburban "good" schools were rooted in white supremacy. I can't emphasize that enough. So that's something to interrogate very seriously.
You might know that before the 1619 project, Nikole Hannah-Jones wrote extensively about public schools and segregation. Her work is excellent. Please look for this work, perhaps starting here, with her story about her own daughter. And yes, listen to the podcast Nice White Parents.
Also, please know: if you never saw those scores, you wouldn't be anxious, but you already thought the schools were good. This is not an emergency to be resolved immediately. Those scores didn't change the schools; it's just information you didn't have.
I love that my kids have a diverse array of friends. When I see the creativity and diversity at my younger kid's high school, I am honestly a bit self-satisfied at the choices we made. They spend time in households with kids whose parents were born all over the world. They move with ease in a multicultural environment. That's not something I can give them. They would have a lot less if they had been in richer schools with kids mostly from households like ours.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:52 AM on May 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
+infinity to RobinofFrocksley’s comment. I was a lower-middle-class white kid who attended diverse public schools in a struggling city. I had a great time, made amazing friends, learned a lot at my own pace, and then went to an Ivy. I don’t know about the economic benefits, but those experiences shaped my values and worldview in profound and fundamental ways that I would not trade for decades more of life on earth. Lots of great advice above on things to read and listen to.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:04 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:04 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Two things to point out to you:
1. The infographic you're looking at is focused on the impact of Covid on schools specifically, and comparing how schools and students fared just recently as compared to right before the pandemic. It is not meant to be reflective of the overall quality of schools in toto or in general. So - it stands to reason that a really good school could just have had really bad luck with its particular students when it came to testing, or have been really unprepared for the pandemic. I'm sure you can agree that how a school conducted itself during the pandemic may be different and may be an incomplete reflection of how good the school is in general.
2. I'm from a school system that also didn't fare well on the infographic you're looking at - and, it actually was kind of meh back when I was there as well. The last time there was any testing done, it was coming in with only about 30-35% proficiency for math and reading amongst students. It was a public school in an economically disadvantaged town in a poor part of a fairly rich state; in fact, if my school had been in a state other than Connecticut, it would have been even worse.
But - look at me. Take a look back through my comment history and read about the things I've done, and read how I can speak and communicate. Sounds like I'm doing okay, huh? I've got a job, I've held careers in the arts and I'm thriving in a cosmopolitan city. Even though my school wasn't "a good school".
And the reason why I came out of a "not so good school" and did okay was because of the people I had in my corner who encouraged me - starting with my parents. They let me read anything I put my hands on, and they welcomed my curiosity. The teachers in my system - especially in grade school - also fostered that curiosity and encouraged me to pursue it. By the time I was in Junior and Senior High I hit some not-so-great teachers, but I had a group of friends around me who were also similarly curious and ambitious, and we supported each other enough to help each other along and encourage each other to go on to bigger and better things.
If not for my parents and my friends and some teachers behind me, I wouldn't have gotten as far as I am. And that would also have been the case if I'd been at a better school. If you support and encourage your kids and you pay attention to what's going on in their school, and work with the teachers at parent-teacher conferences and such, that will go a long way to benefit your kids. Even if they're at a "not so good" school, and especially if your kids' school is only "not so good" when it comes to the pandemic.
Oh, and another thing to point out - my school was also nearly all-white. Whiteness doesn't mean the school is "better". In my case, it just meant that I was living in New England.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:23 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
1. The infographic you're looking at is focused on the impact of Covid on schools specifically, and comparing how schools and students fared just recently as compared to right before the pandemic. It is not meant to be reflective of the overall quality of schools in toto or in general. So - it stands to reason that a really good school could just have had really bad luck with its particular students when it came to testing, or have been really unprepared for the pandemic. I'm sure you can agree that how a school conducted itself during the pandemic may be different and may be an incomplete reflection of how good the school is in general.
2. I'm from a school system that also didn't fare well on the infographic you're looking at - and, it actually was kind of meh back when I was there as well. The last time there was any testing done, it was coming in with only about 30-35% proficiency for math and reading amongst students. It was a public school in an economically disadvantaged town in a poor part of a fairly rich state; in fact, if my school had been in a state other than Connecticut, it would have been even worse.
But - look at me. Take a look back through my comment history and read about the things I've done, and read how I can speak and communicate. Sounds like I'm doing okay, huh? I've got a job, I've held careers in the arts and I'm thriving in a cosmopolitan city. Even though my school wasn't "a good school".
And the reason why I came out of a "not so good school" and did okay was because of the people I had in my corner who encouraged me - starting with my parents. They let me read anything I put my hands on, and they welcomed my curiosity. The teachers in my system - especially in grade school - also fostered that curiosity and encouraged me to pursue it. By the time I was in Junior and Senior High I hit some not-so-great teachers, but I had a group of friends around me who were also similarly curious and ambitious, and we supported each other enough to help each other along and encourage each other to go on to bigger and better things.
If not for my parents and my friends and some teachers behind me, I wouldn't have gotten as far as I am. And that would also have been the case if I'd been at a better school. If you support and encourage your kids and you pay attention to what's going on in their school, and work with the teachers at parent-teacher conferences and such, that will go a long way to benefit your kids. Even if they're at a "not so good" school, and especially if your kids' school is only "not so good" when it comes to the pandemic.
Oh, and another thing to point out - my school was also nearly all-white. Whiteness doesn't mean the school is "better". In my case, it just meant that I was living in New England.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:23 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I went to some very non-elite public schools in 1st through 12th grades. Low test scores, racially/culturally mixed (especially in grade school), some pretty mediocre teachers, communities with high economic need. I did fine and went on to very elite undergrad and grad schools with no issues, because I came from a family with educated parents and lots of support and nurturing. So the quality of the schools was mostly irrelevant; some aspects (like being friends with people very different from myself) were great, others were less great but not in any way damaging or limiting.
I'm sure there are advantages to going to elite K-12 schools and maybe I'd have done better in some ways if I'd had access to that, but in the end I didn't have any particular struggles with undergrad/grad schools that came from going to non-elite schools as a kid.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:29 AM on May 12, 2023
I'm sure there are advantages to going to elite K-12 schools and maybe I'd have done better in some ways if I'd had access to that, but in the end I didn't have any particular struggles with undergrad/grad schools that came from going to non-elite schools as a kid.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:29 AM on May 12, 2023
First, I would strongly suggest taking the race rhetoric and assumptions out of this. In our school district, the Black families with resources wouldn’t even consider the middle school I’m sending my kid to (they go private or have already moved to the burbs). Conversely, many Black families without means to move or go private (my son’s future classmates) are keenly interested in improving academics at the school. You cannot assume anything about a family’s academic preferences based on their race. There’s nothing racist about insisting on solid academics.
Second, the academic stakes definitely are higher for MS and HS. You’re likely not going to be OK with you kids having no access to college-prep level instruction. There are definitely lower income schools where you can get this kind of instruction - it will just be less of a school priority and your kids will not have as many academic peers.
Third, you need to actually get out and talk to parents and administrators before making assumptions about any school. Go to PTA meetings, talk to your neighbors, ask to meet with the administrators.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:47 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Second, the academic stakes definitely are higher for MS and HS. You’re likely not going to be OK with you kids having no access to college-prep level instruction. There are definitely lower income schools where you can get this kind of instruction - it will just be less of a school priority and your kids will not have as many academic peers.
Third, you need to actually get out and talk to parents and administrators before making assumptions about any school. Go to PTA meetings, talk to your neighbors, ask to meet with the administrators.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:47 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
1/ Your economic class and not your local school system is the primary predictor of your childrens' academic achievements and future income;
2/ Test scores are biased, racist and classist and serve nobody actually present in a classroom;
3/ The ranking tables are bullshit (previously).
posted by DarlingBri at 10:53 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
2/ Test scores are biased, racist and classist and serve nobody actually present in a classroom;
3/ The ranking tables are bullshit (previously).
posted by DarlingBri at 10:53 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I may be in a similar situation (kids still younger and we may send them to private schools - my background is similar to yours; husband grew up attending private schools).
For me what I would do is keep an eye on my OWN kids test scores. I would want my kids to be thriving academically wherever they are in school. If I can help make that happen by “supplementing” at home or via extracurricular tutoring/programs, great. If it’s not working and my kids are falling behind I would get them out of those schools including by moving or budgeting for private school.
posted by amaire at 11:41 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
For me what I would do is keep an eye on my OWN kids test scores. I would want my kids to be thriving academically wherever they are in school. If I can help make that happen by “supplementing” at home or via extracurricular tutoring/programs, great. If it’s not working and my kids are falling behind I would get them out of those schools including by moving or budgeting for private school.
posted by amaire at 11:41 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are you a passive receiver of the educational offerings created by whichever of your neighbors has time and money to contribute to the school system? Or are you a member of the community, with all the rights and responsibilities that entails?
You can make some part of it better. Substantially better, if you're not just an academic, but a focused educator.
Whatever your academic passion, or skills, letting that be seen in your kids' social circle -- whether that's by example, enthusiastic storytelling, or direct delivery -- could make a big difference.
posted by amtho at 12:05 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
You can make some part of it better. Substantially better, if you're not just an academic, but a focused educator.
Whatever your academic passion, or skills, letting that be seen in your kids' social circle -- whether that's by example, enthusiastic storytelling, or direct delivery -- could make a big difference.
posted by amtho at 12:05 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
This will vary hugely depending on how much tracking is practiced. Sometimes the honors/gifted classes are effectively a school-within-a-school.
posted by kickingtheground at 12:58 PM on May 12, 2023
posted by kickingtheground at 12:58 PM on May 12, 2023
People have already addressed the important points: your kids will be fine.
I just want to add that with the demographics of the school (which will be great for your kids to experience) you wouldn't expect standardized test scores, and therefore rankings, to be high. That doesn't mean the kids aren't brilliant, creative, talented individuals. Just that these tests which are demonstrably biased (particularly if you don't speak English) aren't picking up on that because they're measuring the wrong things.
As someone who works in Education research, I've always sent my (white, middle class) kids to the most diverse school that was an option. Often that meant low average test scores and lots of poverty. My now older kids are thriving (eldest off to med school), and I think they're better for having had the experience of diverse peers.
posted by nixxon at 1:04 PM on May 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I just want to add that with the demographics of the school (which will be great for your kids to experience) you wouldn't expect standardized test scores, and therefore rankings, to be high. That doesn't mean the kids aren't brilliant, creative, talented individuals. Just that these tests which are demonstrably biased (particularly if you don't speak English) aren't picking up on that because they're measuring the wrong things.
As someone who works in Education research, I've always sent my (white, middle class) kids to the most diverse school that was an option. Often that meant low average test scores and lots of poverty. My now older kids are thriving (eldest off to med school), and I think they're better for having had the experience of diverse peers.
posted by nixxon at 1:04 PM on May 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I think also the point people are making is not “send your kids to any old school that sucks because it’s your responsibility and it will be fine for them.”
I think it’s “expand what you look at as markers of a functioning public school and how it serves your children and the community of students.”
I didn’t send my kid to my local school (instead a nearby public school) partly because I had some concerns about facility safety and organizational effectiveness that weren’t being sufficiently addressed in my investigations. But I also wasn’t like “only the very tip top for my precious child.” I was and am willing to work with trade offs.
posted by vunder at 1:20 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it’s “expand what you look at as markers of a functioning public school and how it serves your children and the community of students.”
I didn’t send my kid to my local school (instead a nearby public school) partly because I had some concerns about facility safety and organizational effectiveness that weren’t being sufficiently addressed in my investigations. But I also wasn’t like “only the very tip top for my precious child.” I was and am willing to work with trade offs.
posted by vunder at 1:20 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Fair point, haptic_avenger. I live in Vermont, so take as many grains of salt as needed. I had not taken physical safety in to account, although we do have our share of gun violence it is a very safe place. You won't find schools with 1% proficiency because the government takes those over (my son was at one of those briefly), but these are schools that are pretty bad on paper, but pretty good in reality.
posted by nixxon at 1:20 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by nixxon at 1:20 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
1/ Your economic class and not your local school system is the primary predictor of your childrens' academic achievements and future income;
I'm sorry but defining future achievement by economic class (there are only 3-5 at most) is just not granular enough, and salary bands just not generally wide enough to make grand statements like this. With the data we have, we can barely even tell graduating with an advanced education degree is even worth it due to the tight salary bands.
If you want to distill what the data actually says, it's something more like "you will not fall more than 1 (of 3) economic class (unless you are injured and cannot work) and you will earn within 1.5X of the median income in the US within the top (3 of 5) income quintiles during your highest years of earnings while employed if your parents were also in the top 3 of 5 income quintiles.
There is some recent evidence that income quintiles are widening, partially due to the lower income falling and upper income rising, and educational attainment of the highest order (ie: best high schools/best state or private schools/best jobs plus marrying someone of the same income class), mostly due to higher income inequality, but it's not dramatic enough (yet) to drive stats at the US population-level (yet).
To that extent, the school you attend does matter, and it matter a lot.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:57 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry but defining future achievement by economic class (there are only 3-5 at most) is just not granular enough, and salary bands just not generally wide enough to make grand statements like this. With the data we have, we can barely even tell graduating with an advanced education degree is even worth it due to the tight salary bands.
If you want to distill what the data actually says, it's something more like "you will not fall more than 1 (of 3) economic class (unless you are injured and cannot work) and you will earn within 1.5X of the median income in the US within the top (3 of 5) income quintiles during your highest years of earnings while employed if your parents were also in the top 3 of 5 income quintiles.
There is some recent evidence that income quintiles are widening, partially due to the lower income falling and upper income rising, and educational attainment of the highest order (ie: best high schools/best state or private schools/best jobs plus marrying someone of the same income class), mostly due to higher income inequality, but it's not dramatic enough (yet) to drive stats at the US population-level (yet).
To that extent, the school you attend does matter, and it matter a lot.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:57 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
There is also evidence that some states best state schools only take from a small number of the top schools, and virtually no-one else is able to attend (no, not even the valedictorian of podunk high schools) and that entire states are under-represented in the best schools, like Illinois for example, you have a lower chance of going to an Ivy in Illinois than in the NE, even at the best high schools in the state.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:00 PM on May 12, 2023
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:00 PM on May 12, 2023
I like Integrated Schools as a counter-narrative to many of the ideas we grew up about around "good schools."
posted by teditrix at 2:48 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by teditrix at 2:48 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I went to a school very similar to your kids, it even failed whatever the No Child Left Behind testing things was. Fights were extremely common, kids ditched all the time, basically my recollection is the school was just trying to get kids to not be so truant and low performing that the feds would take over. It was more or less teenager babysitting. There were not really sports fields or swanky extracurricular resources.
My anecdotal experience is that the kids with highly educated parents all ended up fine. A few particularly ambitious parents specifically chose this sort of school to help their kids get into Ivy League colleges (look at me! I aced the SAT but Yale gets to put me down as attending a marginalized under-resourced, school that’s only 10% white kids).
I have attended and now work in elite name-recognizable universities. As a bookish kid I was probably lonelier than I would have been at a fancier school but we also didn’t have any of the vicious popularity stuff going on that I associate with white suburban schools.
I feel like my experience made me a much more empathetic person because I grew up with very good friends who struggled with basic stuff like not being able to afford the dentist or doctor. People had parents who got evicted, didn’t have washing machines in their houses, and the kids from the suburban white high school threw tortillas at our marching band.
Is this really about good schools and needed support to do well academically or is this desire more about a knee-jerk imperative that it’s “bad” for kids to spend any real amount of time with other kids who are poorer than yours are?
posted by forkisbetter at 5:21 PM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
My anecdotal experience is that the kids with highly educated parents all ended up fine. A few particularly ambitious parents specifically chose this sort of school to help their kids get into Ivy League colleges (look at me! I aced the SAT but Yale gets to put me down as attending a marginalized under-resourced, school that’s only 10% white kids).
I have attended and now work in elite name-recognizable universities. As a bookish kid I was probably lonelier than I would have been at a fancier school but we also didn’t have any of the vicious popularity stuff going on that I associate with white suburban schools.
I feel like my experience made me a much more empathetic person because I grew up with very good friends who struggled with basic stuff like not being able to afford the dentist or doctor. People had parents who got evicted, didn’t have washing machines in their houses, and the kids from the suburban white high school threw tortillas at our marching band.
Is this really about good schools and needed support to do well academically or is this desire more about a knee-jerk imperative that it’s “bad” for kids to spend any real amount of time with other kids who are poorer than yours are?
posted by forkisbetter at 5:21 PM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: You might find Gabby Blair’s essay on Skyline High interesting.
posted by shadygrove at 5:59 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by shadygrove at 5:59 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I've marked lots of answers that were particularly helpful for me (in part because of snowflakes I omitted) and could have marked many more. Thank you to everyone for the spectrum of perspective and experience. This was such a good place to ask this question.
posted by sy at 6:15 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by sy at 6:15 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
You might find Gabby Blair’s essay on Skyline High interesting.
I don’t mean to be repetitive but the school described there apparently has a viable AP/college track. The high schools in my neighborhood just do not. Like, no AP scores above 3, and certainly no state flagship admissions, let alone Ivys, and 99% failing the proficiency exams, shootings (one today!)
I think in all of these well-meaning conversations we try to paper over how some schools truly are struggling. I feel like it gets to the point of actually denying the reality of entrenched poverty.
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:54 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don’t mean to be repetitive but the school described there apparently has a viable AP/college track. The high schools in my neighborhood just do not. Like, no AP scores above 3, and certainly no state flagship admissions, let alone Ivys, and 99% failing the proficiency exams, shootings (one today!)
I think in all of these well-meaning conversations we try to paper over how some schools truly are struggling. I feel like it gets to the point of actually denying the reality of entrenched poverty.
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:54 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry but defining future achievement by economic class (there are only 3-5 at most) is just not granular enough, and salary bands just not generally wide enough to make grand statements like this.
My comments were based on a recent reading of Predicting educational achievement from genomic measures and socioeconomic status:
The two best predictors of children's educational achievement available from birth are parents’ socioeconomic status (SES) and, recently, children's inherited DNA differences that can be aggregated in genome‐wide polygenic scores (GPS).
This is not my area (clearly), and on reflection, I was probably too sweeping: the key predictor of a child's educational achievement is the parents' socio-economic status, but indeed, the economic value of educational attainment is diminishing.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:24 AM on May 13, 2023
My comments were based on a recent reading of Predicting educational achievement from genomic measures and socioeconomic status:
The two best predictors of children's educational achievement available from birth are parents’ socioeconomic status (SES) and, recently, children's inherited DNA differences that can be aggregated in genome‐wide polygenic scores (GPS).
This is not my area (clearly), and on reflection, I was probably too sweeping: the key predictor of a child's educational achievement is the parents' socio-economic status, but indeed, the economic value of educational attainment is diminishing.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:24 AM on May 13, 2023
I really struggled with this too but I often revisit this piece to reaffirm my decision to keep my kids in our local schools.
(On preview I see that someone else has mentioned Gabby Blair but I still love this essay.)
posted by heavenknows at 2:34 AM on May 13, 2023
(On preview I see that someone else has mentioned Gabby Blair but I still love this essay.)
posted by heavenknows at 2:34 AM on May 13, 2023
I don’t mean to be repetitive but the school described there apparently has a viable AP/college track. The high schools in my neighborhood just do not. Like, no AP scores above 3, and certainly no state flagship admissions, let alone Ivys, and 99% failing the proficiency exams, shootings (one today!)
It can make a real difference to your child's school experience if they have a cohort of peers who are also aiming for high AP scores and good colleges. Assuming that's what you and they want for them. I would say that you need enough kids that eg they run AP Calculus, AP English and AP US History every year (or equivalent), and most students score 3 or more. But that cohort doesn't need to be the majority, as few as 30 kids can be enough.
I also would not want a school where bullying of any kind (including violence) was tolerated. But bullying can be horrific at a "nice" majority white suburban school too.
posted by plonkee at 6:04 AM on May 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
It can make a real difference to your child's school experience if they have a cohort of peers who are also aiming for high AP scores and good colleges. Assuming that's what you and they want for them. I would say that you need enough kids that eg they run AP Calculus, AP English and AP US History every year (or equivalent), and most students score 3 or more. But that cohort doesn't need to be the majority, as few as 30 kids can be enough.
I also would not want a school where bullying of any kind (including violence) was tolerated. But bullying can be horrific at a "nice" majority white suburban school too.
posted by plonkee at 6:04 AM on May 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
It’s interesting to read that 10yo blog post about Skyline being rated a 2/10. Today Skyline is a 5/10, the second highest in Oakland (Tech is an 6/10) and is considered the second best high school in Oakland (of about 20). Traditionally it was the “good” high school in Oakland because it’s up in the hills, and was historically the (or among the) whitest. I think today (as in the past) it’s prized for families (not just white ones) looking for a school they perceive to be safe, which: fair enough.
posted by vunder at 10:02 AM on May 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by vunder at 10:02 AM on May 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
That’s what I figured about Skyline. I do appreciate the sources that counsel against maximizing everything for your kid, as well as addressing biases and assumptions. But when you scratch the surface, many parents publicly discussing their brave choice to go to the diverse public school are not being totally honest. Then you find out the following:
The public school turns out to have a strong academic track, where their kid will be segregated anyway. Or they plan to send their kid to private high school. Or they have grandparent money to send their kid full pay to college and just don’t believe the stakes are that high for secondary school.
A lot of privilege underlies these attitudes, and I find it a bit annoying to be told not to worry about academics since my kid doesn’t have the same privileges.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:48 AM on May 13, 2023
The public school turns out to have a strong academic track, where their kid will be segregated anyway. Or they plan to send their kid to private high school. Or they have grandparent money to send their kid full pay to college and just don’t believe the stakes are that high for secondary school.
A lot of privilege underlies these attitudes, and I find it a bit annoying to be told not to worry about academics since my kid doesn’t have the same privileges.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:48 AM on May 13, 2023
Or they have grandparent money to send their kid full pay to college and just don’t believe the stakes are that high for secondary school.
It doesn't even take grandparent money to have the privilege of not worrying so much about secondary school. If you are from that stratum where one or both of your parents is an academic, or a writer, or otherwise making a living (even if economically marginally) from intellectual endeavors, you generally don't need to sweat the details of secondary schools much, since there is so much cultural capital in the house already. At that point, you are probably going to benefit more in your college applications from being able to craft a narrative around your diverse experience than you would from having gone to the fancier school with better average test scores, but where your personal GPA probably would be lower and you certainly wouldn't stand out.
But if you are from a family that doesn't have that level of cultural capital, the details of the secondary school probably carry more weight. And, if you have the opportunity to go to one of those hyper-elite schools like Phillips Exeter, then hell yeah you are going to benefit, no matter what your family background.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:50 PM on May 13, 2023
It doesn't even take grandparent money to have the privilege of not worrying so much about secondary school. If you are from that stratum where one or both of your parents is an academic, or a writer, or otherwise making a living (even if economically marginally) from intellectual endeavors, you generally don't need to sweat the details of secondary schools much, since there is so much cultural capital in the house already. At that point, you are probably going to benefit more in your college applications from being able to craft a narrative around your diverse experience than you would from having gone to the fancier school with better average test scores, but where your personal GPA probably would be lower and you certainly wouldn't stand out.
But if you are from a family that doesn't have that level of cultural capital, the details of the secondary school probably carry more weight. And, if you have the opportunity to go to one of those hyper-elite schools like Phillips Exeter, then hell yeah you are going to benefit, no matter what your family background.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:50 PM on May 13, 2023
haptic-avenger, you're arguing with folks as if you asked this question and people are responding to you about your kid and situation. We are responding to a white, upper middle class male academic asking about his white kids in his local school district that he liked until he saw an infographic. His kids have loads of privilege. Mine do not have all those same privileges, so please don't assume.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:10 AM on May 15, 2023
posted by bluedaisy at 11:10 AM on May 15, 2023
My point is that the degree of privilege is not always apparent when people talk about enrolling their kids in “diverse” schools. (For example, you could give more details on the proficiency levels and advanced tracks and safety at your kids’ school.) That’s why I think it’s important for OP to drill down on what people are actually telling him about their choices. And he also does have to think about his beliefs and goals for education. It’s just not universally true that because your kid is white with highly educated parents that the academic quality of school no longer matters.
posted by haptic_avenger at 12:19 PM on May 15, 2023
posted by haptic_avenger at 12:19 PM on May 15, 2023
It’s just not universally true that because your kid is white with highly educated parents that the academic quality of school no longer matters.
Not one single person has said that. People are disagreeing with the idea that test scores are a proxy for academic quality. But in general (not always! but often!), white kids with typical learning styles and abilities with highly educated parents and a stable home environment with middle class are above income are going to be fine in many, many schools--and schools that don't have high average test scores can have excellent teachers and a diverse learning environment that benefits those kids in other ways.
And, schools with high test scores can be terrible for many kids, especially kids of color and poor kids.
It's also true that parental anxiety about choosing schools is off the charts. It's not clear that parental anxiety is an indicator of actual problems in the schools.
I think folks are responding to this person's particular set of questions.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:27 PM on May 15, 2023
Not one single person has said that. People are disagreeing with the idea that test scores are a proxy for academic quality. But in general (not always! but often!), white kids with typical learning styles and abilities with highly educated parents and a stable home environment with middle class are above income are going to be fine in many, many schools--and schools that don't have high average test scores can have excellent teachers and a diverse learning environment that benefits those kids in other ways.
And, schools with high test scores can be terrible for many kids, especially kids of color and poor kids.
It's also true that parental anxiety about choosing schools is off the charts. It's not clear that parental anxiety is an indicator of actual problems in the schools.
I think folks are responding to this person's particular set of questions.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:27 PM on May 15, 2023
But in general (not always! but often!), white kids with typical learning styles and abilities with highly educated parents and a stable home environment with middle class are above income are going to be fine in many, many schools--and schools that don't have high average test scores can have excellent teachers and a diverse learning environment that benefits those kids in other ways.
All I am saying is that “in general” is doing a lot of work there. There are schools with a core of grade-level and above students that serve them well. And there are schools that are extremely challenged. There’s a difference. And I’m not sure what race has to do with it - one of the eye-opening moments for me was realizing that *all* of the black parents with resources left our school because of behaviors and academics. Meanwhile, many working class black parents at the school would very much like academics to improve. The desire for improved academics and concern with test scores is not race-based in my direct, personal experience. If anything my experience has been that well-off white parents undermine the working class black parents’ desire for stronger academics and behavioral control.
posted by haptic_avenger at 1:47 PM on May 15, 2023
All I am saying is that “in general” is doing a lot of work there. There are schools with a core of grade-level and above students that serve them well. And there are schools that are extremely challenged. There’s a difference. And I’m not sure what race has to do with it - one of the eye-opening moments for me was realizing that *all* of the black parents with resources left our school because of behaviors and academics. Meanwhile, many working class black parents at the school would very much like academics to improve. The desire for improved academics and concern with test scores is not race-based in my direct, personal experience. If anything my experience has been that well-off white parents undermine the working class black parents’ desire for stronger academics and behavioral control.
posted by haptic_avenger at 1:47 PM on May 15, 2023
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Also, I gotta say: as a single woman who probably won’t have kids, I still research school quality before even renting, more less buying. The fact that this is something you are noticing just now tells me two things: 1) so-called school reputation is less a priority to you than you think or 2) you’ve been so sheltered by privilege that you didn’t even think to question things. So this will be a positive experience for you too in that you can explore your own biases; I think you’ll be positively surprised. I can guarantee you that every parent cares about their child’s education and they want the best for their kids, too. And just 1/3 ELs? That’s actually not huge and think of how the diversity in language and culture will have so many benefits for all, including your white monolingual kids!
posted by smorgasbord at 9:02 AM on May 12, 2023 [17 favorites]