Do you know whether your partner values your best characteristics?
May 5, 2023 1:00 PM Subscribe
I have always taken it as a given that you would want your partner to value, admire, and respect that things that you like most about yourself, but a recent conversation made me question whether this is true, and now I would like to ask you for your experiences and advice. Example within.
I will give the example I posed to my friend the veterinary behaviorist. Her defining qualities, in my view, are her deep empathy for all living creatures, abiding sense of duty to friends, family, and the animals in her care, and her emotional generosity. She agreed that these are things that make her who she is and that she likes about herself. I asked her if she thought her husband admired and respected those things in her (really asking about this issue in relation to myself, which she understood) and to my surprise she said she had never thought about it.
This has been a source of friction in my romantic relationships because the men in my life seem to want to be with me for qualities that I don't really value at that much (looks, intelligence) and are baffled or annoyed by my compassion, sense of responsibility, etc.--the things that make me feel proud of myself, that I want to be appreciated for. It feels like serving someone a delicious meal and having them praise the china. Sure it's nice to have the china appreciated but thing you're proud of is the food.
I know there's no right or wrong in these matters but to get an idea of the range of human experience: Do you know whether your partner values, admires, and respects the things you like best about yourself? Do you care? Is this a reasonable expectation or am I making myself unnecessarily dissatisfied?
I will give the example I posed to my friend the veterinary behaviorist. Her defining qualities, in my view, are her deep empathy for all living creatures, abiding sense of duty to friends, family, and the animals in her care, and her emotional generosity. She agreed that these are things that make her who she is and that she likes about herself. I asked her if she thought her husband admired and respected those things in her (really asking about this issue in relation to myself, which she understood) and to my surprise she said she had never thought about it.
This has been a source of friction in my romantic relationships because the men in my life seem to want to be with me for qualities that I don't really value at that much (looks, intelligence) and are baffled or annoyed by my compassion, sense of responsibility, etc.--the things that make me feel proud of myself, that I want to be appreciated for. It feels like serving someone a delicious meal and having them praise the china. Sure it's nice to have the china appreciated but thing you're proud of is the food.
I know there's no right or wrong in these matters but to get an idea of the range of human experience: Do you know whether your partner values, admires, and respects the things you like best about yourself? Do you care? Is this a reasonable expectation or am I making myself unnecessarily dissatisfied?
Actually I feel my partner values and admires the things I like least about myself, which is slowly making me have more compassion for those things, and is unexpected. I don't think he un-values the stuff I like about myself, but I already know that stuff is dope, so I don't really need the confirmation.
It would be different if he actively disliked what I think of as my best traits; I did have a partner who felt that way, and it was a very difficult relationship. But if you asked the two of us why someone should date me, he and I would give different answers for sure.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:17 PM on May 5, 2023 [37 favorites]
It would be different if he actively disliked what I think of as my best traits; I did have a partner who felt that way, and it was a very difficult relationship. But if you asked the two of us why someone should date me, he and I would give different answers for sure.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:17 PM on May 5, 2023 [37 favorites]
I tend to think that straight men are particularly unlikely to appreciate women for what women value in themselves, because straight men grow up with basically what you're describing - that a woman's status markers (mostly beauty, maybe intelligence or connections) are what make her valuable and her other qualities (comic timing, generosity, career success, physical skill or strength, etc) are unimportant, inconvenient or actively bad because they "defeminize" her - like, no matter how beautiful a woman comedian is, for instance, she's likely to have trouble dating because men are taught to see funny women as unfeminine. Even if you're model-gorgeous, if you make more than a man he's likely to feel resentful, etc.
So yes, I think you identify something real but mostly gender and status linked.
CS Lewis writes about this - approvingly, of course. God, you see, values women's submissiveness and femininity, and not their individuality, opinions, hopes and dreams, etc, so when men do the same thing they're just being good Christians and women need to get over themselves.
posted by Frowner at 1:20 PM on May 5, 2023 [26 favorites]
So yes, I think you identify something real but mostly gender and status linked.
CS Lewis writes about this - approvingly, of course. God, you see, values women's submissiveness and femininity, and not their individuality, opinions, hopes and dreams, etc, so when men do the same thing they're just being good Christians and women need to get over themselves.
posted by Frowner at 1:20 PM on May 5, 2023 [26 favorites]
What an interesting question!
Mr. eirias is actually pretty swayed by my view of myself in some ways. This is sometimes tragic and sometimes funny and sometimes both. I kind of tend to round down my own personal valuation and he cheerfully goes along. Like once I was convinced I'd failed a test and he gave me a condolences card before I even had results back because he assumed I was right. "Better luck studying next time, champ!" I wound up getting a B+, which, okay, not great in grad school but still. It's funny now but at the time it stung. The only place he stubbornly overestimates my value is that for some reason he wants me to run for office. This is insane. I am stubborn, bad at small talk, increasingly bad with names, and don't do heels or makeup or any of that BS that women in power are supposed to do to (even the wonderful lesbian Senator from our neighborhood knows how to dress for DC). So I'm really not sure where he got this idea.
I think this goes beyond partners. It can be really painful when someone close to us doesn't understand us. My dad alienated me once or twice by openly scoffing at the things I do value about myself and praising me for attributes that are skew to that. But that was in the context of some pretty clear gender stuff. Once I asked him to tell me a story about me growing up and he somehow wound up talking about the hot cheerleader in my graduating class. My father-in-law doesn't always like me, but he gets me, and never compares me to hot cheerleaders either favorably or unfavorably, and that will have to do.
posted by eirias at 1:20 PM on May 5, 2023 [13 favorites]
Mr. eirias is actually pretty swayed by my view of myself in some ways. This is sometimes tragic and sometimes funny and sometimes both. I kind of tend to round down my own personal valuation and he cheerfully goes along. Like once I was convinced I'd failed a test and he gave me a condolences card before I even had results back because he assumed I was right. "Better luck studying next time, champ!" I wound up getting a B+, which, okay, not great in grad school but still. It's funny now but at the time it stung. The only place he stubbornly overestimates my value is that for some reason he wants me to run for office. This is insane. I am stubborn, bad at small talk, increasingly bad with names, and don't do heels or makeup or any of that BS that women in power are supposed to do to (even the wonderful lesbian Senator from our neighborhood knows how to dress for DC). So I'm really not sure where he got this idea.
I think this goes beyond partners. It can be really painful when someone close to us doesn't understand us. My dad alienated me once or twice by openly scoffing at the things I do value about myself and praising me for attributes that are skew to that. But that was in the context of some pretty clear gender stuff. Once I asked him to tell me a story about me growing up and he somehow wound up talking about the hot cheerleader in my graduating class. My father-in-law doesn't always like me, but he gets me, and never compares me to hot cheerleaders either favorably or unfavorably, and that will have to do.
posted by eirias at 1:20 PM on May 5, 2023 [13 favorites]
No, I don't think my wife really cares about the things I like most about myself. I both care and don't care. I kind of wish she did; I mean, there's a reason I've cultivated those qualities about myself. They're things I value, and I think I do a good job of living up to those values, and I'd like to be recognized for that. But you gotta take people where they are, and like, my wife just hasn't had the life to appreciate some of those things. One of the things I value is being creative, especially in everyday life. Think "how can I tweak this recipe?" kind of stuff. And my wife just wasn't raised like that. She's a lot more focused on efficiency. "Do you really need to chop a clove of garlic? Can't you just use garlic powder?" There are a lot of times I wish someone would say "wow, the fresh garlic really makes this sauce taste so much better", but also, there are a lot of times where her strengths can make up for my weaknesses. We just bought a house, for example, which is not really the best time for curiosity or creativity. She took the lead, and that really helped. But I think, the previous sentence notwithstanding, she would say the same thing about me, that I don't really appreciate the things she likes most about herself. We're very different people. But have complementary skills works sometimes.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:23 PM on May 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 1:23 PM on May 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Appreciation can be taught. I wish I'd figured that out sooner.
posted by amtho at 1:35 PM on May 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by amtho at 1:35 PM on May 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
I would certainly not want a partner who disliked the things I most value about myself, or who was “baffled and annoyed” by them. But I can’t say it’s particularly important to me that my partner actively admire those things, vs. perhaps considering them mildly positive or even neutral.
My partner loves and appreciates many things about me. Other people in my life are better positioned to appreciate other things about me. In the aggregate, I feel loved and appreciated for the things I want to be loved and appreciated for, plus several other things that I wouldn’t even have thought to appreciate about myself. It’s fine with me if for some of those things, the cheerleading is coming from a beloved friend or family member rather than my partner.
From the other direction, it’s definitely true that I do not value in my partner exactly the things he most values about himself. Part of my role in his life is to help remind him that some of his self-evaluation is actually really skewed by the abusive way he was raised, and that he does not have to be XYZ to be loveable and loved. I would admire, respect, and love him if he never displayed some of those traits again. I simply do not care, except to the extent that he does. I love him very much and think he is wonderful for a different set of reasons that has some overlap, and some very distinct differences, from those things he sees as central to his own identity. He has very complicated feelings about those aspects of his identity, and I try to balance supporting him in finding ways to make those things his own despite how they came about, with making it clear that he is so much more than the very limited set of things his family valued him for.
posted by Stacey at 1:40 PM on May 5, 2023 [23 favorites]
My partner loves and appreciates many things about me. Other people in my life are better positioned to appreciate other things about me. In the aggregate, I feel loved and appreciated for the things I want to be loved and appreciated for, plus several other things that I wouldn’t even have thought to appreciate about myself. It’s fine with me if for some of those things, the cheerleading is coming from a beloved friend or family member rather than my partner.
From the other direction, it’s definitely true that I do not value in my partner exactly the things he most values about himself. Part of my role in his life is to help remind him that some of his self-evaluation is actually really skewed by the abusive way he was raised, and that he does not have to be XYZ to be loveable and loved. I would admire, respect, and love him if he never displayed some of those traits again. I simply do not care, except to the extent that he does. I love him very much and think he is wonderful for a different set of reasons that has some overlap, and some very distinct differences, from those things he sees as central to his own identity. He has very complicated feelings about those aspects of his identity, and I try to balance supporting him in finding ways to make those things his own despite how they came about, with making it clear that he is so much more than the very limited set of things his family valued him for.
posted by Stacey at 1:40 PM on May 5, 2023 [23 favorites]
Eponysterical, Mr.Know-it-some.
Major eye roll. The difference here is that I don’t know a single hilarious woman who prefers a man less funny than her— generally, she’s looking for at least a funny equal. Which the magical data supports. Whereas mysteriously, men prefer women to be less than them, a hard target to aim for. It’s almost like women are looking for positive characteristics in their men, and men are looking for “less than me in every way except sex appeal, which should be maximized, because my ego is made of glass.”
Women want to know their man will step up, and men want to know their women will step down. That doesn’t imply that women WANT to step down, just that they might be coerced to in order to find a high quality mate. I dare say we don’t WANT to be less than; it’s unfortunately a widespread imposition (and assumption) that we will strive to be, however.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:44 PM on May 5, 2023 [19 favorites]
Major eye roll. The difference here is that I don’t know a single hilarious woman who prefers a man less funny than her— generally, she’s looking for at least a funny equal. Which the magical data supports. Whereas mysteriously, men prefer women to be less than them, a hard target to aim for. It’s almost like women are looking for positive characteristics in their men, and men are looking for “less than me in every way except sex appeal, which should be maximized, because my ego is made of glass.”
Women want to know their man will step up, and men want to know their women will step down. That doesn’t imply that women WANT to step down, just that they might be coerced to in order to find a high quality mate. I dare say we don’t WANT to be less than; it’s unfortunately a widespread imposition (and assumption) that we will strive to be, however.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:44 PM on May 5, 2023 [19 favorites]
Let me also clarify that “high quality” is in major quotes, here. The point being that if we’re choosing between a bore who doesn’t threaten our ego, and someone interesting who happens to be an asshole, it’s a coin toss.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:59 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by stoneandstar at 1:59 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
My first instinct was more along the lines of “no my husband values more things than I give myself credit for and doesn’t care about some things I care about in myself at all.”
But…that comes from a foundation of understanding and respect. He knows me really well (partly due to time) and he’s always been on the journey with me. Not because of any exact thing, but because we just delight in each other. I have a past rooted in dysfunction so what I’ve valued has changed a lot…even in my appreciation of him. It’s been more about how solidly we care about and for each other than single items.
A few things we aren’t similar about, like punctuality. Or like, I’m a planner and he’s not. These things create friction but they’re dwarfed by the other things.
I think your baseline expectation is reasonable, that your partner would share a good percentage of your values. But I also think it is about baseline respect and understanding more than getting all the exact details right. You do deserve that.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:00 PM on May 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
But…that comes from a foundation of understanding and respect. He knows me really well (partly due to time) and he’s always been on the journey with me. Not because of any exact thing, but because we just delight in each other. I have a past rooted in dysfunction so what I’ve valued has changed a lot…even in my appreciation of him. It’s been more about how solidly we care about and for each other than single items.
A few things we aren’t similar about, like punctuality. Or like, I’m a planner and he’s not. These things create friction but they’re dwarfed by the other things.
I think your baseline expectation is reasonable, that your partner would share a good percentage of your values. But I also think it is about baseline respect and understanding more than getting all the exact details right. You do deserve that.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:00 PM on May 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
Agree with this being a great question. The trivial read of what you wrote is that you've dated men who like you for your looks or your car, and none of us likes to be liked for shallow things, or just things we consider unimportant. But I get that you meant far more than that.
I think Mr. Dash mostly does value most of what I like about myself, or who I strive to be. This reflects having common/shared values, personality aspects that we both value. And shared value systems are important in a relationship - perhaps this is what you mean when you talk about satisfaction related to shared likes.
Different people have different tolerances or interest in whether their partner really shares their value system, too (shared values about shared values, how meta). Mr. Dash and I both value hard work, but I know couples in whom a hard worker only really wants a spouse who puts up with their work drive, not matches it from their own side. Some people can only live with fellow clean freaks; others aren't really bothered by a partner who doesn't keep a neat environment.
There are definitely things I don't like about myself, but that he does. And since I want him to be happy more than I dislike myself, I come up with more compassion and patience for those things than I might ordinarily have.
posted by Dashy at 2:01 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think Mr. Dash mostly does value most of what I like about myself, or who I strive to be. This reflects having common/shared values, personality aspects that we both value. And shared value systems are important in a relationship - perhaps this is what you mean when you talk about satisfaction related to shared likes.
Different people have different tolerances or interest in whether their partner really shares their value system, too (shared values about shared values, how meta). Mr. Dash and I both value hard work, but I know couples in whom a hard worker only really wants a spouse who puts up with their work drive, not matches it from their own side. Some people can only live with fellow clean freaks; others aren't really bothered by a partner who doesn't keep a neat environment.
There are definitely things I don't like about myself, but that he does. And since I want him to be happy more than I dislike myself, I come up with more compassion and patience for those things than I might ordinarily have.
posted by Dashy at 2:01 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hm. Some of the traits my spouse thinks of highly of in himself (things like creative output and amusing conversation) would not make my top three or even top ten for what I think highly of in him. But for the deeper stuff -- values, integrity, work ethic -- yeah, I think we see each other the way we want to be seen.
Looking around me in the world, though, I see that it's common for men to value specific physical appeal (which isn't the same as garden-variety beauty, exactly); and loyalty over accomplishment. I myself am not very pretty and while this certainly has had its downsides, it has ensured that the men who are into me are into me because they really dig me specifically.
posted by fingersandtoes at 2:01 PM on May 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Looking around me in the world, though, I see that it's common for men to value specific physical appeal (which isn't the same as garden-variety beauty, exactly); and loyalty over accomplishment. I myself am not very pretty and while this certainly has had its downsides, it has ensured that the men who are into me are into me because they really dig me specifically.
posted by fingersandtoes at 2:01 PM on May 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don’t know exactly what my spouse values about me, but I would be surprised if it were the same things that I value about myself. We’re two different people, which is part of the magic of a long term relationship. My spouse’s experience of me is necessarily more limited and fragmented than my (constant) experience of being me.
Taking your question in a different way, I would be unhappy if my spouse vocally valued me mostly or solely for an attribute like beauty, since I would then feel a lot of pressure to maintain a specific appearance.
posted by chocotaco at 2:22 PM on May 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Taking your question in a different way, I would be unhappy if my spouse vocally valued me mostly or solely for an attribute like beauty, since I would then feel a lot of pressure to maintain a specific appearance.
posted by chocotaco at 2:22 PM on May 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
One of my favorite things about my husband is that I make him laugh. Yeah. I make HIM laugh. I’ve been with so many people that could make me laugh or shared my sense of humor. But many didn’t see ME as funny. (And many men don’t see women as funny or think them capable of jokes.)
I get butterflies when I hear him laugh at something I did and he allows me the comfort and safety to be a total fool.
At the same time, I pride myself on my organizational and project management ability. And his brain doesn’t work like mine so that’s an area we scuffle on. I think he appreciates my ability to be on-top of things. It’s the reason our household has any chance of functioning, honestly. But it wouldn’t be like the top thing he would bring up outside of a related context.
And as others have said, he likes things about me that I don’t like about myself. And it makes me more secure. I think he would feel similarly about all of it.
I think a core issue is that you are feeling appreciation ONLY for things you think are low-value. It’s fair to want a shared sense of what is important about a person and to feel appreciated at least a little for what you value. A Venn diagram is how my spouse and I think about it. We have a lot of overlap in interests and values, but just enough on the edges to keep it interesting and have our own identities.
posted by Crystalinne at 2:41 PM on May 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I get butterflies when I hear him laugh at something I did and he allows me the comfort and safety to be a total fool.
At the same time, I pride myself on my organizational and project management ability. And his brain doesn’t work like mine so that’s an area we scuffle on. I think he appreciates my ability to be on-top of things. It’s the reason our household has any chance of functioning, honestly. But it wouldn’t be like the top thing he would bring up outside of a related context.
And as others have said, he likes things about me that I don’t like about myself. And it makes me more secure. I think he would feel similarly about all of it.
I think a core issue is that you are feeling appreciation ONLY for things you think are low-value. It’s fair to want a shared sense of what is important about a person and to feel appreciated at least a little for what you value. A Venn diagram is how my spouse and I think about it. We have a lot of overlap in interests and values, but just enough on the edges to keep it interesting and have our own identities.
posted by Crystalinne at 2:41 PM on May 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would draw a difference between loving someone/being loved for a certain quality and sharing a key value with that person (the latter being represented by the examples of compassion, responsibility, and even generally deeming looks and intelligence to be less important).
Is that an important difference? Maybe not, and I've often found it hard to explain, but I think it's more affirming to be seen and loved for one's whole self, and drilling down to specific qualities can be detrimental to that, for a variety of reasons.
If a friend asked me if my spouse admired a particular thing about me, I would probably have the same reaction as your friend--never gave it much thought.
posted by lampoil at 3:02 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is that an important difference? Maybe not, and I've often found it hard to explain, but I think it's more affirming to be seen and loved for one's whole self, and drilling down to specific qualities can be detrimental to that, for a variety of reasons.
If a friend asked me if my spouse admired a particular thing about me, I would probably have the same reaction as your friend--never gave it much thought.
posted by lampoil at 3:02 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mostly only notice what my spouse appreciates about me when it surprises me. He points out things I don't even notice myself doing, both good things that I just do automatically and feel good about him pointing out and bad things that I never really thought of as a problem until he told me how they affect him. One of the things that surprises me sometimes is that he appreciates things about me that society has told me are Ugly (I am forceful, I read the fine print and do my research, I crack dumb jokes at awkward moments) and those moments are always heartwarming and may be kind of what you're looking for.
I think one thing that may be important as a distinction is that I don't have a sense he's trying to change me in any ways I don't agree with. He makes me better, mostly, or at least healthier and more balanced - like he will encourage me to take more care of myself and be less of a martyr, which is sort of counter to my "value" of compassion but it's also sort of him expressing/extending that value by applying it to myself as well, so it isn't jarring in the moment even if he argues with me. Some of your description makes me think of the way it's jarring when someone just clearly isn't speaking your same language and doesn't understand where you're coming from at all, or they're trying to "help" you but it's all stuff you affirmatively don't want.
posted by Lady Li at 3:30 PM on May 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think one thing that may be important as a distinction is that I don't have a sense he's trying to change me in any ways I don't agree with. He makes me better, mostly, or at least healthier and more balanced - like he will encourage me to take more care of myself and be less of a martyr, which is sort of counter to my "value" of compassion but it's also sort of him expressing/extending that value by applying it to myself as well, so it isn't jarring in the moment even if he argues with me. Some of your description makes me think of the way it's jarring when someone just clearly isn't speaking your same language and doesn't understand where you're coming from at all, or they're trying to "help" you but it's all stuff you affirmatively don't want.
posted by Lady Li at 3:30 PM on May 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is a very interesting question and I am very much enjoying the many nuances of answers.
I think if we were to ask my husband what he admires it would be different than what I admire in myself - he admires the things that are attractive to or different from him or things that he values. That can be helpful because I don't always value or see those things.
But he is a wonderful cheerleader and if I said, "hey, I am working on this quality or skill." He would then start to notice and encourage as a way to support me.
I am less supportive but am more clear through my own lens and will often say something like "that people pleasing quality is not my favorite because sometimes it makes you over promise but I love you and I do value and appreciate you wanting to support others." It gets tricky and a partner can not do everything (usually they live with you and that is a load).
I hope that you and kevinbelt do have or cultivate other people, besides spouses, that appreciate your valued aspects.
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 4:12 PM on May 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think if we were to ask my husband what he admires it would be different than what I admire in myself - he admires the things that are attractive to or different from him or things that he values. That can be helpful because I don't always value or see those things.
But he is a wonderful cheerleader and if I said, "hey, I am working on this quality or skill." He would then start to notice and encourage as a way to support me.
I am less supportive but am more clear through my own lens and will often say something like "that people pleasing quality is not my favorite because sometimes it makes you over promise but I love you and I do value and appreciate you wanting to support others." It gets tricky and a partner can not do everything (usually they live with you and that is a load).
I hope that you and kevinbelt do have or cultivate other people, besides spouses, that appreciate your valued aspects.
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 4:12 PM on May 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Super interesting line of thought. Firstly I think you deserve someone who sees you and gets you and is so CURIOUS to see more in you and find new things to love about you, rather than just like, great smile and cute ass, don’t need any more info, done. Do you feel you’re getting that?
In stating that, my partners have had no idea what I can do at work because I don’t like to take it home, and can’t really discuss a lot of it, and those skills are something I’m hugely proud of and they’re what make me me. Also I’ve had partners with zero understanding of music and that’s maybe 30% of my self-worth. On the other hand, they have seen and appreciated things about me that I never would have even noticed, and that’s hugely fulfilling.
posted by kapers at 4:59 PM on May 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
In stating that, my partners have had no idea what I can do at work because I don’t like to take it home, and can’t really discuss a lot of it, and those skills are something I’m hugely proud of and they’re what make me me. Also I’ve had partners with zero understanding of music and that’s maybe 30% of my self-worth. On the other hand, they have seen and appreciated things about me that I never would have even noticed, and that’s hugely fulfilling.
posted by kapers at 4:59 PM on May 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
i have no idea why my husband likes me and don't want to dig into it too much lest he figure out that maybe he shouldn't
posted by Jacqueline at 5:38 PM on May 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 5:38 PM on May 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
being valued sounds horrifying & being admired is flattering in the beginning but very hard to take in the long run. any romantic partner of mine will like and appreciate all the qualities of mine they are aware of, not because they are all wonderful qualities, but because they are mine. that is more or less what it is to love someone, so it is what I understand to be the case when someone says they love me. falling in love with someone I don't respect is possible but very unpleasant, so I take steps to avoid it.
I am an optimist not a realist (this is one of my better characteristics) but I like to think I am not unusual in any of this.
I can deal with feeling and suppressing some level of fond annoyance with a partner, but I wouldn't spend five minutes now with a partner I could tell I annoyed. like habitually. being around someone you irritate, no matter how you feel about the irritating quality in yourself, is a fruitless and unprofitable form of self-punishment, I have done it enough to know.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:29 PM on May 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I am an optimist not a realist (this is one of my better characteristics) but I like to think I am not unusual in any of this.
I can deal with feeling and suppressing some level of fond annoyance with a partner, but I wouldn't spend five minutes now with a partner I could tell I annoyed. like habitually. being around someone you irritate, no matter how you feel about the irritating quality in yourself, is a fruitless and unprofitable form of self-punishment, I have done it enough to know.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:29 PM on May 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Just wanted to say that this is a great question and I've really enjoyed reading people's various responses to it!
posted by praemunire at 9:03 PM on May 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:03 PM on May 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
I also am digging this question and the spectrum of responses. Thinking it all over is making me realize how deeply "scarred" I am by a long prior relationship with someone who was an intractable approval-seeker, made so by parents who rewarded and enabled that kind of behavior. The more I saw it, the more I despised it. Constant exposure to it pushed me to actively (and almost aggressively) withhold any approval-type response.
My current partner is not like that at all, but my conditioning is still there. I perceive things as approval-seeking even if they are not. Too often, I am triggered to hold back and not "reward" what is still coming through to me as approval-seeking.
It makes them feel unloved and makes me feel fake when I do try to be more expressive. It's more of a struggle than I would like, and I worry that it may be unfixable.
I want my interactions with my partner to be (and feel) authentic, not the product of me forcing myself to compliment and encourage. I want to shut down the part of me that analyzes and evaluates. I don't want our communication to be marked by constant effort to counteract a baked-in instinct to hold back. More so, because along with it is a decent dose of disdain and even resentment, that a grown-ass person is so dependent on external validation.
So many qualities my current partner possesses are absolutely praise-worthy and deserving of my ongoing celebration. It's absolutely unfair that the old relationship's detritus continues to negatively affect how we interact. I have to get better at this. Thank you for making me see this more clearly via your question.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:42 AM on May 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
My current partner is not like that at all, but my conditioning is still there. I perceive things as approval-seeking even if they are not. Too often, I am triggered to hold back and not "reward" what is still coming through to me as approval-seeking.
It makes them feel unloved and makes me feel fake when I do try to be more expressive. It's more of a struggle than I would like, and I worry that it may be unfixable.
I want my interactions with my partner to be (and feel) authentic, not the product of me forcing myself to compliment and encourage. I want to shut down the part of me that analyzes and evaluates. I don't want our communication to be marked by constant effort to counteract a baked-in instinct to hold back. More so, because along with it is a decent dose of disdain and even resentment, that a grown-ass person is so dependent on external validation.
So many qualities my current partner possesses are absolutely praise-worthy and deserving of my ongoing celebration. It's absolutely unfair that the old relationship's detritus continues to negatively affect how we interact. I have to get better at this. Thank you for making me see this more clearly via your question.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:42 AM on May 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
When I met my wife 23 years ago I was attracted to her physically, sure, but she was (and still is) interesting, funny, intelligent, kind, etc., and I'm confident that if she were here she'd say the same thing about me. I'm also confident that she both values, admires, and respects the things I like best about myself *and* has compassion, understanding and patience for the aspects of myself that I'm not as happy with (and vice-versa).
It seems to me that any relationship not based on mutual, equal and reinforcing respect is a castle built on sand because without that any other positive qualities it might have will probably not stand up to the rigours of time or adversity, or at least not in a way that will bring happiness to both parties.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:54 AM on May 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
It seems to me that any relationship not based on mutual, equal and reinforcing respect is a castle built on sand because without that any other positive qualities it might have will probably not stand up to the rigours of time or adversity, or at least not in a way that will bring happiness to both parties.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:54 AM on May 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think there is so much projection in what people value. Anyone saying they value intelligence is always sort of suspect, for me. It often seems to involve an assuption that they are intelligent enough to evaluate most other people's intelligence-- even, it often seems to be implied, more intelligent than most people. On a more basic level, I think they say they value intelligence in others when what is more to the point is that they value it in themselves. (I happen to think "intelligence," in the way it's commonly talked about, is overvalued anyway.)
I am interested in the ldea that your partner is baffled or annoyed by your compassion and sense of responsibility. These seem like such odd things to have a problem with. Is it to do with your expression of your values becoming inconvenient, derailing your partner's life in some way? Do they not like discussing issues related to these qualities of yours? Or do they express disdain for them in general, whether manifested by you or by other people? I would love to know.
With me and my partners over the years, I think in general-- when things are going well at least-- we take each other's good qualities for granted to the point where we might not even be able to articulate them. There are times when my partner will say something and I'll think (for instance), "Wow, he really has a lot of empathy." Again, though, I think there is some level of projection and self-referentiality in my reaction. I don't have as much empathy as him and I am not as sensitive as him. That's what makes it noticeable to me.
posted by BibiRose at 5:36 AM on May 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am interested in the ldea that your partner is baffled or annoyed by your compassion and sense of responsibility. These seem like such odd things to have a problem with. Is it to do with your expression of your values becoming inconvenient, derailing your partner's life in some way? Do they not like discussing issues related to these qualities of yours? Or do they express disdain for them in general, whether manifested by you or by other people? I would love to know.
With me and my partners over the years, I think in general-- when things are going well at least-- we take each other's good qualities for granted to the point where we might not even be able to articulate them. There are times when my partner will say something and I'll think (for instance), "Wow, he really has a lot of empathy." Again, though, I think there is some level of projection and self-referentiality in my reaction. I don't have as much empathy as him and I am not as sensitive as him. That's what makes it noticeable to me.
posted by BibiRose at 5:36 AM on May 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can definitely tell whether people like me for the reasons I care most about. I definitely care. I have ended many relationships when it became increasingly obvious that the man was interested in me because of the qualities that increased his comfort (my looks, empathy, conversational skill, etc) and he was not interested - or indeed many of them were explicitly and verbally jealous - when it came to the qualities that didn't bolster their comfort (my career, talent, leadership, integrity, etc). I was beginning to wonder if I would ever find someone who respected me for the reasons I respect myself.
BUT
My biological clock got louder and louder, so I stopped trying so hard to find that kind of romantic / talent-based / talk-all-night kind of compatibility, because I was running out of time. Instead I prioritized parenting compatibility (which meant lots of conversations about our values in parenting and teaching, and then babysitting friends' kids together). This led to finding a great partner who's not deeply interested in my career, my talents or my leadership skills, but we're both obsessively interested in co-creating a stable home for our children, nurturing them, and figuring out how we can raise them well together. As it turned out, parenting eventually emerged as probably THE most important thing for me, so it works well. And I have friends and colleagues who respect me for my other talents and skills.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:30 AM on May 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
BUT
My biological clock got louder and louder, so I stopped trying so hard to find that kind of romantic / talent-based / talk-all-night kind of compatibility, because I was running out of time. Instead I prioritized parenting compatibility (which meant lots of conversations about our values in parenting and teaching, and then babysitting friends' kids together). This led to finding a great partner who's not deeply interested in my career, my talents or my leadership skills, but we're both obsessively interested in co-creating a stable home for our children, nurturing them, and figuring out how we can raise them well together. As it turned out, parenting eventually emerged as probably THE most important thing for me, so it works well. And I have friends and colleagues who respect me for my other talents and skills.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:30 AM on May 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
I find it difficult when a partner feels threatened by my intellect. I don't mind either way if they particularly value my kindness, which is not something I particularly value in myself, or my pragmatism, which I do value. I think there's a real difference between valuing a positive feature you don't care about so much, and thinking negatively of something you do value.
posted by plonkee at 7:51 AM on May 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 7:51 AM on May 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. Per the Ask Metafilter Guidelines, please focus on responding to the original poster's question instead of other commentators, thanks!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:34 PM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:34 PM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
For me it’s less about the specifics and more about the general feeling. When I feel appreciated and loved for who I am, I just know. When I don’t feel fully loved and appreciated, the little things get to me. I agree with others who say that we can ask and tell partners how they can best show their love and appreciation!! However, we need to choose someone who cares enough to put in that work, which arguably should be part of a fun get-to-know you process where there are ups and downs but mostly good stuff! I am single in part because, while I am not looking for perfection, I am looking for true compatibility. I don’t need a lot of shared hobbies but I do need kindness and shared values (and attraction, of course!) I like me for me and trust to know when someone else does too even if the specific reasons differ. I could give a bit of a vulgar example to illustrate my point but I’m not sure if the overshare is helpful, ahem.
posted by smorgasbord at 4:59 PM on May 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 4:59 PM on May 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's too neat a question to be summed up so neatly, but it strikes me that you specifically are talking about traits you can't control -- the things you are -- vs. the traits you can, the things you try to be. Not that you don't make efforts to be however attractive or stay however intelligent you are, but maybe compassion and responsibility/accountability take more active/constant effort.
So I identify with the question, at least as I understand it. I would like to be admired for my creativity and sense of humor, to name just a couple traits. My wife never wants to hear my music, though, and doesn't seem to find me half as funny as she finds herself or, really, nearly anyone else she's close to. This has really bothered me; music is obviously personal, and then to not listen even once, and offer some manner of positive if vague and not entirely genuine feedback, feels like a kind of rejection.
So I asked her, once, at a difficult time in our marriage: What did she like about me, since she didn't seem to like the things I cared about? The answers were depressing; I assure you my looks weren't mentioned at all, or my intelligence, but the whole list was about what I was, not what I tried to be. Dependable, fiscally responsible, a good father (sometimes, anyway); things of that nature. My response was that her bar seemed set pretty low if she was staying with me for those reasons.
After time to reflect, I had second thoughts. I mean, it still sucked not to have my partner presumably for life display any interest in the parts of me I put forward, the parts that feel personal. But her answer did make me stop taking those other traits for granted. They're maybe not so inexorable, either. I could definitely find stuff to blow more money on, and put myself before my kid more often than I already do. The choices I make along those lines feel right to me, but it's not like it wouldn't be fun to 'be bad' a little more often. I might view the qualities she cited as bare minimum, but maybe they're less common than I thought. Or maybe they aren't, but they're what's most important to my wife, at least, and that's definitely not nothing. Just because I can't imagine ever getting fed up with my job and quitting without something else lined up doesn't mean helping support my family isn't valuable or even to be appreciated.
YMMV; being admired for your looks probably feels different in some ways to a woman than being admired for dependability feels to a man (or woman, for that matter). But whether it's those qualities or others you maybe didn't list but feel the same way about, maybe you'll find *you* underappreciated those qualities yourself, and re-evaluate.
All that said, it's still 100% fine to want to be with someone who admires you for the things you want to be admired for.
posted by troywestfield at 1:18 PM on May 12, 2023
So I identify with the question, at least as I understand it. I would like to be admired for my creativity and sense of humor, to name just a couple traits. My wife never wants to hear my music, though, and doesn't seem to find me half as funny as she finds herself or, really, nearly anyone else she's close to. This has really bothered me; music is obviously personal, and then to not listen even once, and offer some manner of positive if vague and not entirely genuine feedback, feels like a kind of rejection.
So I asked her, once, at a difficult time in our marriage: What did she like about me, since she didn't seem to like the things I cared about? The answers were depressing; I assure you my looks weren't mentioned at all, or my intelligence, but the whole list was about what I was, not what I tried to be. Dependable, fiscally responsible, a good father (sometimes, anyway); things of that nature. My response was that her bar seemed set pretty low if she was staying with me for those reasons.
After time to reflect, I had second thoughts. I mean, it still sucked not to have my partner presumably for life display any interest in the parts of me I put forward, the parts that feel personal. But her answer did make me stop taking those other traits for granted. They're maybe not so inexorable, either. I could definitely find stuff to blow more money on, and put myself before my kid more often than I already do. The choices I make along those lines feel right to me, but it's not like it wouldn't be fun to 'be bad' a little more often. I might view the qualities she cited as bare minimum, but maybe they're less common than I thought. Or maybe they aren't, but they're what's most important to my wife, at least, and that's definitely not nothing. Just because I can't imagine ever getting fed up with my job and quitting without something else lined up doesn't mean helping support my family isn't valuable or even to be appreciated.
YMMV; being admired for your looks probably feels different in some ways to a woman than being admired for dependability feels to a man (or woman, for that matter). But whether it's those qualities or others you maybe didn't list but feel the same way about, maybe you'll find *you* underappreciated those qualities yourself, and re-evaluate.
All that said, it's still 100% fine to want to be with someone who admires you for the things you want to be admired for.
posted by troywestfield at 1:18 PM on May 12, 2023
Response by poster: Thanks everyone! I wasn't sure anyone would even know what I was talking about, much less have so much to say about it! (Also, I feel like the way I phrased the question may have unintentionally implied that I'm some great beauty who is only valued for their looks. I assure you I'm not.)
Anyway, your answers have given me a lot to ponder. I feel like the huge missing chunk of information my whole life long has been "what is reasonable to expect in a relationship." Not what you ideally want, not what you're willing to settle for, but what is actually attainable. Men will of course tell you that you have unreasonably high expectations. But maybe you do! And if so, maybe that's good, or maybe you'd be happier lowering them. It's endlessly confusing. Thanks for helping me sort through a small part of it!
posted by HotToddy at 4:01 PM on May 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anyway, your answers have given me a lot to ponder. I feel like the huge missing chunk of information my whole life long has been "what is reasonable to expect in a relationship." Not what you ideally want, not what you're willing to settle for, but what is actually attainable. Men will of course tell you that you have unreasonably high expectations. But maybe you do! And if so, maybe that's good, or maybe you'd be happier lowering them. It's endlessly confusing. Thanks for helping me sort through a small part of it!
posted by HotToddy at 4:01 PM on May 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
When you become close to someone, you begin to see things through their eyes. You see what they admire and value, and how they see those things such that they admire and value them. That includes you -- you see yourself partly through their eyes.
No two people have the same perspectives, so you won't find that, when you get close to someone, they will value and admire the exact same things about yourself that they do. So as you take on each others' perspectives, you will come to value and admire different things about yourself, too. You will change.
In a good relationship, you can make yourself vulnerable, and grow by coming to value yourself differently. What is important here is not whether your partner values and admires exactly the same things about you as you do coming into the relationship, but whether, as you become closer, your perspectives mesh in a harmonious way that affirms your value and dignity.
If you value your responsibility and your partner values your looks and intelligence, you may find that, when you see yourself through his eyes, you don't like what you see. Your perspectives are disharmonious in a way that impinges on your ethics. You resist their meshing -- with reason! Of course it is reasonable not to like this. You get to decide what's important to you. Similarly, if your partner sees something you like about yourself as boring and annoying, again, you probably won't enjoy taking on that perspective. And you shouldn't! Having a healthy sense of dignity means protecting yourself from seeing your values as worthless.
Still, though, I think a framing that suggested your partner "owes" you seeing you any particular way would be misguided. It's not wrong to have a different value perspective from someone else. On the other hand, a lot of people out there have shitty values, and that sucks, and it sucks that that's what you open yourself up to when you try to meet someone. I just think it's not very productive to think of this as a question of like, what is proper conduct for a relationship partner? It's not that. Really it's much bigger. It's about what kind of person to be.
posted by grobstein at 11:43 AM on May 18, 2023
No two people have the same perspectives, so you won't find that, when you get close to someone, they will value and admire the exact same things about yourself that they do. So as you take on each others' perspectives, you will come to value and admire different things about yourself, too. You will change.
In a good relationship, you can make yourself vulnerable, and grow by coming to value yourself differently. What is important here is not whether your partner values and admires exactly the same things about you as you do coming into the relationship, but whether, as you become closer, your perspectives mesh in a harmonious way that affirms your value and dignity.
If you value your responsibility and your partner values your looks and intelligence, you may find that, when you see yourself through his eyes, you don't like what you see. Your perspectives are disharmonious in a way that impinges on your ethics. You resist their meshing -- with reason! Of course it is reasonable not to like this. You get to decide what's important to you. Similarly, if your partner sees something you like about yourself as boring and annoying, again, you probably won't enjoy taking on that perspective. And you shouldn't! Having a healthy sense of dignity means protecting yourself from seeing your values as worthless.
Still, though, I think a framing that suggested your partner "owes" you seeing you any particular way would be misguided. It's not wrong to have a different value perspective from someone else. On the other hand, a lot of people out there have shitty values, and that sucks, and it sucks that that's what you open yourself up to when you try to meet someone. I just think it's not very productive to think of this as a question of like, what is proper conduct for a relationship partner? It's not that. Really it's much bigger. It's about what kind of person to be.
posted by grobstein at 11:43 AM on May 18, 2023
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One of the things I love about my spouse is that he recognizes and appreciates things about me that feel important and significant to me, but that are often overlooked (or at least not commented on) by other people. It makes me feel deeply seen and understood. I would not be happy in a relationship without that.
One other thought -- if your partner is not just oblivious, but actively "baffled or annoyed" by qualities/traits/actions that are deeply important to you, that seems like a sign of a pretty fundamental mismatch in values in general. And it's totally fine and reasonable for that to be a dealbreaker. It would be for me.
posted by peperomia at 1:14 PM on May 5, 2023 [21 favorites]