Parents of college-aged MeFitelings, share your recruitment stories
April 26, 2023 1:16 PM Subscribe
My institution is looking at adjusting our approach to admissions, and rethinking the personal statement component. If you are somebody who is or has recently applied to college, or a close friend or relative of same, I'd love to hear about the best and worst "beyond grades" admissions tools you've seen.
We are aware of the dichotomy where any process that requires extra effort will inherently favour the people who have the capacity and resources to put in extra effort. Pre-accepting well-meant "all admissions systems are inherently flawed" criticisms, I'm still looking for things that recent college applicants have liked or didn't like about admissions processes that asked for material outside grades (essays, portfolios, videos, interviews...).
We are aware of the dichotomy where any process that requires extra effort will inherently favour the people who have the capacity and resources to put in extra effort. Pre-accepting well-meant "all admissions systems are inherently flawed" criticisms, I'm still looking for things that recent college applicants have liked or didn't like about admissions processes that asked for material outside grades (essays, portfolios, videos, interviews...).
After the application is submitted, there's a school that invites students to submit an optional "Why ?" short answer. I think this is not as onerous as adding more essays or short answers in the application but allows the applicant to demonstrate that they are really interested and that they've learned about the school and have a clear idea of how they can both benefit and contribute as a student at that specific school.
posted by RoadScholar at 1:43 PM on April 26, 2023
posted by RoadScholar at 1:43 PM on April 26, 2023
My student (Young Cocoa) and I really disliked the focus on questions like "Did you start a business, create a medical breakthrough, or solve world hunger? If so, we want to know!" And we called bullshit on some questions that breathlessly asked about the student's leadership skills, and responded instead with some sentences about how Young Cocoa's values have led them to collaboration, supporting others, centering typically marginalized voices, and striving for all people to feel welcome in various clubs, classrooms, etc.
Young Cocoa applied to some international schools, and it was apparent from the application process that non-U.S. universities are focused on academic interests and skills, whereas U.S. colleges and universities seem to be building a social web with varying levels of learning attached. (Young Cocoa and a few friends were absolutely sure they had flubbed foreign applications because "they only asked for grades and possible areas of study.")
Young Cocoa also applied to a number of stand-alone art schools. The portfolio process is pretty intense and a whole other level of work. Most of the applications could be satisfied with the same portfolio, but was prohibitive time-wise for art schools that had vastly different portfolio requirements. It was not possible for Young Cocoa to do two portfolios and also stay afloat with his regular course load.
A few schools acknowledged in the application that the pandemic understandably constrained academic and social growth. Of those, a couple asked for some reflection on that time, which Young Cocoa and I appreciated.
Anecdotally from a friend - they and their student loooooved Bard's immediate decision plan. Most of the other parents of seniors were also jealous/interested/impressed by that model.
posted by cocoagirl at 1:59 PM on April 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Young Cocoa applied to some international schools, and it was apparent from the application process that non-U.S. universities are focused on academic interests and skills, whereas U.S. colleges and universities seem to be building a social web with varying levels of learning attached. (Young Cocoa and a few friends were absolutely sure they had flubbed foreign applications because "they only asked for grades and possible areas of study.")
Young Cocoa also applied to a number of stand-alone art schools. The portfolio process is pretty intense and a whole other level of work. Most of the applications could be satisfied with the same portfolio, but was prohibitive time-wise for art schools that had vastly different portfolio requirements. It was not possible for Young Cocoa to do two portfolios and also stay afloat with his regular course load.
A few schools acknowledged in the application that the pandemic understandably constrained academic and social growth. Of those, a couple asked for some reflection on that time, which Young Cocoa and I appreciated.
Anecdotally from a friend - they and their student loooooved Bard's immediate decision plan. Most of the other parents of seniors were also jealous/interested/impressed by that model.
posted by cocoagirl at 1:59 PM on April 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Young Proust recently completed the application for the Atlas Fellowship. A lot of their questions are IQ test / logical reasoning type things, but they also ask some interesting and thought provoking questions. For example, "What is a belief you hold that you would suffer (or have suffered) social penalties for expressing? (All our questions are optional, but this is extra-optional—you will not lose any points for leaving this one blank!)" and "Suppose we were going to mistakenly reject your application, i.e., you would have been a great fit for Atlas but we weren't able to figure this out. Why would we have made this mistake? Was there something we should have asked about in this application that we failed to ask?...Don't worry if there's nothing obvious that comes to mind. Please feel free to leave this blank."
posted by Winnie the Proust at 2:14 PM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 2:14 PM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
As a faculty member who reads numerous personal statements, I wish the applicants were given more information on what we are looking for in them, rather than them having to somehow know through hidden curriculum.
posted by grouse at 2:14 PM on April 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by grouse at 2:14 PM on April 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
My kid was just lamenting that he got an email suggesting he apply for *extra very cool thing* at college but also still has to write an essay to apply for extra thing. I don't yet know what the essay prompt is, but he might skip it if it's deeply personal. He is someone with a very interesting and complex life story, and it would be super stressful to him to share that story as part of an application essay, because then he is essentially revisiting trauma as part of marketing himself, and it would feel pretty bad to do that! I don't think it's great practice to ask kids to write about something bad when they are applying for something good.
But, he'd be glad to write about books or other media he has consumed. So how about something like, "What is a book, film, TV show, or [maybe music?] that is meaningful to you? Tell us about it, and why it's meaningful." Young people, like all of us, feel passionately about others' creative works, and often have incredibly rich reasons for those feelings. I think many of them would like a chance to talk about that, and it would tell you a lot about them. And they can also choose how personal it will be.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:43 PM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
But, he'd be glad to write about books or other media he has consumed. So how about something like, "What is a book, film, TV show, or [maybe music?] that is meaningful to you? Tell us about it, and why it's meaningful." Young people, like all of us, feel passionately about others' creative works, and often have incredibly rich reasons for those feelings. I think many of them would like a chance to talk about that, and it would tell you a lot about them. And they can also choose how personal it will be.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:43 PM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is a really good question, and I wish I had an equally good answer to it. The program I review apps for is a graduate-level professional program, so it's easy and effective to ask applicants for a personal statement asking how they came to this set of professions and what they hope to contribute to them (or to the world through them).
It's harder to find something good for undergraduate applicants, since the scope is so broad for them.
I can tell you, though, that what is absolutely exhausting me about the undergrad teaching I presently do is that so many of them (not all, but so many) are laser-focused on two things: 1) getting lucrative employment, and 2) getting through college as indifferently and unindustriously as possible, since they see it as a useless hoop on the way to goal 1). Maybe I'm just unlucky in the undergrads who end up in my classes, but I'm just. Tired.
So I'd be inclined to ask something like "How will you help the world be better for your presence in it, and how do you envision {school} helping you achieve that?" Just... something with SOME kind of beyond-the-grind idealism in it? Maybe?
posted by humbug at 3:50 PM on April 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's harder to find something good for undergraduate applicants, since the scope is so broad for them.
I can tell you, though, that what is absolutely exhausting me about the undergrad teaching I presently do is that so many of them (not all, but so many) are laser-focused on two things: 1) getting lucrative employment, and 2) getting through college as indifferently and unindustriously as possible, since they see it as a useless hoop on the way to goal 1). Maybe I'm just unlucky in the undergrads who end up in my classes, but I'm just. Tired.
So I'd be inclined to ask something like "How will you help the world be better for your presence in it, and how do you envision {school} helping you achieve that?" Just... something with SOME kind of beyond-the-grind idealism in it? Maybe?
posted by humbug at 3:50 PM on April 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Oh, and so as not to abuse the edit window:
The worst admissions tools BAR NONE are those endless Likert-scale-type things asking recommenders to rate their recommendees on various attributes. Just a total waste of time and effort. Ditto for the "is this applicant in the top 1%/5%/10%/50% of your students" garbage. I don't spend time putting my students in boxes like that, and I sideeye any educator who does!
If your process has either or both of these, do everyone a favor and deep-six them.
posted by humbug at 3:53 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
The worst admissions tools BAR NONE are those endless Likert-scale-type things asking recommenders to rate their recommendees on various attributes. Just a total waste of time and effort. Ditto for the "is this applicant in the top 1%/5%/10%/50% of your students" garbage. I don't spend time putting my students in boxes like that, and I sideeye any educator who does!
If your process has either or both of these, do everyone a favor and deep-six them.
posted by humbug at 3:53 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was actually asked last night about my college admissions essay, in the context of how they're always bullshit where we manufacture versions of ourselves. I realised I have no memory whatsoever of what I wrote for that essay (it was admittedly nearly 20 years ago -- I graduated high school in 2004). I do, however, remember my essay for the University of Chicago, which was an (entirely fictional) explanation of the origin of non-dairy creamer. It was by far the easiest to write and probably said the most about me.
Full disclosure: I do also vaguely remember one of the essays I wrote for the UC application. I definitely recycled the bog standard Common App essay for the main essay, but one of the short ones was something about being sent with the Guardian Weekly to give to my friend's mother as a child.
posted by hoyland at 5:26 PM on April 26, 2023
Full disclosure: I do also vaguely remember one of the essays I wrote for the UC application. I definitely recycled the bog standard Common App essay for the main essay, but one of the short ones was something about being sent with the Guardian Weekly to give to my friend's mother as a child.
posted by hoyland at 5:26 PM on April 26, 2023
I read an article some time ago about hiring programmers. The writer said that if he could only ask one question, it would be, "What side projects do you have?"
Generally you can learn a lot more about someone from what he does on his own than how he reacts to stuff that's mandatory. Doing well in school is certainly a requirement for doing well in higher education, but if you're trying to choose between people who are well qualified academically, I think this is a good approach.
I think I'd try to exclude stuff the parents arranged - 'activities' are merely an extension of school, or of one's parents' desires. Stuff one does because one wants to, without urging or support from anyone else, says more than just about anything.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 10:04 PM on April 26, 2023
Generally you can learn a lot more about someone from what he does on his own than how he reacts to stuff that's mandatory. Doing well in school is certainly a requirement for doing well in higher education, but if you're trying to choose between people who are well qualified academically, I think this is a good approach.
I think I'd try to exclude stuff the parents arranged - 'activities' are merely an extension of school, or of one's parents' desires. Stuff one does because one wants to, without urging or support from anyone else, says more than just about anything.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 10:04 PM on April 26, 2023
AugustusCrunch, that type of interview question has really fallen out of favor in recent years in software (I remember being asked it like fifteen years ago and even then feeling it was intrusive) because it screens out a lot of people who truly don't have time in their lives for side projects that would be of interest to interviews (or, indeed, any of their business). It'd be an issue for college admissions for the same reason - plenty of great candidates for college use their "free time" during the week on things like commuting to school, caring for younger siblings or their own children, or working for pay to support themselves and their families.
At worst, depending on when and how you use it, the question can just end up being a discriminatory practice in and of itself, signaling to candidates that only a certain kind of applicant is welcome and others need not apply.
I also have no idea how you'd attempt to exclude stuff the parents arranged. That's at best a very hazy line. Lots of high schoolers started playing an instrument as young children. At what point did that become "their thing" and not their parents'?
posted by potrzebie at 11:28 PM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
At worst, depending on when and how you use it, the question can just end up being a discriminatory practice in and of itself, signaling to candidates that only a certain kind of applicant is welcome and others need not apply.
I also have no idea how you'd attempt to exclude stuff the parents arranged. That's at best a very hazy line. Lots of high schoolers started playing an instrument as young children. At what point did that become "their thing" and not their parents'?
posted by potrzebie at 11:28 PM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
So here's something to consider for your admissions process: how accessible is it for international students?
I considered going to the US for my undergrad, but was stymied because the apps kept asking for info from my guidance counselor. Guidance counselors aren't a thing where I'm from, and besides it had already been a few years since I was in high school (I did a pre-university year as well as a semester of undergrad in a school that turned out to be rubbish, so I was hoping to start over instead of transfer). Meanwhile I went to an Australian education fair with my transcripts in hand and got admitted to a university there in like 2 seconds.
(They still honoured my rubbish semester, which was annoying for future apps - including when I applied for my MFA in San Francisco - because I had to declare that semester in all my paperwork for "please convert your GPA into terms we understand" reasons and kept having to write "no seriously my school screwed me and half the class over via bullshit means so the grades for that one semester aren't indicative of my actual performance" on apps.)
Consider that different countries have different expectations or norms around extra curricular or even just curricular activity. In Malaysia, everything lives and dies on a number of nationwide exams that all students of a particular year take at the same time and get graded together. Group projects aren't common. Extracurriculars are common, but usually you were supposed to prioritise study (including hours in after school tuition), so that usually gets prized over how active you were in clubs unless you were Super Ultra Talented. Part time jobs were only really a thing if you were poor and had to support your family - again, the expectation is that you spend all your time studying. So you might end up with people who don't necessarily have a ton of material to write about in their essays simply because their education system didn't allow for it.
posted by creatrixtiara at 10:46 PM on April 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I considered going to the US for my undergrad, but was stymied because the apps kept asking for info from my guidance counselor. Guidance counselors aren't a thing where I'm from, and besides it had already been a few years since I was in high school (I did a pre-university year as well as a semester of undergrad in a school that turned out to be rubbish, so I was hoping to start over instead of transfer). Meanwhile I went to an Australian education fair with my transcripts in hand and got admitted to a university there in like 2 seconds.
(They still honoured my rubbish semester, which was annoying for future apps - including when I applied for my MFA in San Francisco - because I had to declare that semester in all my paperwork for "please convert your GPA into terms we understand" reasons and kept having to write "no seriously my school screwed me and half the class over via bullshit means so the grades for that one semester aren't indicative of my actual performance" on apps.)
Consider that different countries have different expectations or norms around extra curricular or even just curricular activity. In Malaysia, everything lives and dies on a number of nationwide exams that all students of a particular year take at the same time and get graded together. Group projects aren't common. Extracurriculars are common, but usually you were supposed to prioritise study (including hours in after school tuition), so that usually gets prized over how active you were in clubs unless you were Super Ultra Talented. Part time jobs were only really a thing if you were poor and had to support your family - again, the expectation is that you spend all your time studying. So you might end up with people who don't necessarily have a ton of material to write about in their essays simply because their education system didn't allow for it.
posted by creatrixtiara at 10:46 PM on April 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
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...but as someone in .edu, I also pitied the admissions staffers who had to watch and re-watch these, and try to capture the very same things that "the application couldn't capture."
posted by wenestvedt at 1:31 PM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]