The logistics of removing truly massive amounts of snow
November 20, 2022 9:46 AM
I've been reading about the "snowmageddon" in Buffalo, NY. But I haven't seen any discussion about how, exactly, the city is coping with five feet or more of snow. What are the physics & logistics of moving prodigious amounts of fluffy, frozen water?
For major thoroughfares, I imagine that the plows have been running continuously, so the snow would get cleared before it had a chance to accumulate too much. But what about small side-streets? If your street has five feet of snow, I'd guess that even the really big plows may have trouble getting through it. Plus... where would the snow go, anyway? If the plows had some kind of giant snowblower attachment, they could blow the snow up-and-over the embankment, but I don't think plows have those kinds of attachments. And what about sidewalks and big parking lots? I'm curious about the specifics of dealing with this kind of natural disaster.
For major thoroughfares, I imagine that the plows have been running continuously, so the snow would get cleared before it had a chance to accumulate too much. But what about small side-streets? If your street has five feet of snow, I'd guess that even the really big plows may have trouble getting through it. Plus... where would the snow go, anyway? If the plows had some kind of giant snowblower attachment, they could blow the snow up-and-over the embankment, but I don't think plows have those kinds of attachments. And what about sidewalks and big parking lots? I'm curious about the specifics of dealing with this kind of natural disaster.
Giant snowblower attachments for heavy equipment are indeed a thing. Our city has one they use to harvest the snow from the weird triangular median at the intersection in front of our house (as well as other places around town that don't have space for piles to accumulate) so there's not a giant pile of snow in the middle of the road all winter. They blow the snow into a dump truck and dump it at the edge of town.
posted by abeja bicicleta at 10:01 AM on November 20, 2022
posted by abeja bicicleta at 10:01 AM on November 20, 2022
Oh hi there from Buffalo! You can read the discussions on the Buffalo subreddit where lots of folks are talking about how to deal with residential snow removal as well as municipal snow removal from streets.
I live on a fairly large street (but it's not a bus route) and it has not been totally plowed yet. This is partly because of the city being inept and/or corrupt and partly because there are not enough driveways for all the cars in the city so people park on both sides of the street regardless of parking regulations. This is the case on my block, where one car has been sitting under the snow on the wrong (tomorrow it will be the right lol) side of the street for the entirety of the storm.
Short answer: it's a huge mess and certain streets will be screwed for a while. They already closed schools on Monday.
As far as where people put the snow physically: they pile it in giant mountains wherever they can. Some parking lot snow mounds are so huge that they last through the summer. It's wild here.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 10:05 AM on November 20, 2022
I live on a fairly large street (but it's not a bus route) and it has not been totally plowed yet. This is partly because of the city being inept and/or corrupt and partly because there are not enough driveways for all the cars in the city so people park on both sides of the street regardless of parking regulations. This is the case on my block, where one car has been sitting under the snow on the wrong (tomorrow it will be the right lol) side of the street for the entirety of the storm.
Short answer: it's a huge mess and certain streets will be screwed for a while. They already closed schools on Monday.
As far as where people put the snow physically: they pile it in giant mountains wherever they can. Some parking lot snow mounds are so huge that they last through the summer. It's wild here.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 10:05 AM on November 20, 2022
When there are truly massive amounts of snow in Milwaukee, they'll often pair up Public Works front end loaders with dump trucks, fill the dump trucks with snow from the streets and dump it off at designated spots where it is out of most people's way.
posted by drezdn at 10:22 AM on November 20, 2022
posted by drezdn at 10:22 AM on November 20, 2022
If your street has five feet of snow, I'd guess that even the really big plows may have trouble getting through it
If needs must, they can use earthmoving equipment. Some they can attach plows to. Or they can use (probably not the right word) loader buckets to either just push the snow to the side of the road or load it into dump trucks to go Somewhere Else.
Plus... where would the snow go, anyway?
In the burbs where I've lived -- Snyder and now Clarence Center -- it mostly just sits where the plows put it, in big piles on the strip of grass between sidewalk and street. After 12+ inch snowfalls, the berms will be chest-high. They get knocked down surprisingly quickly in the next rain.
In the city it's a mix of that and loading into trucks that dump it, mostly, into mostly-disused parking lots
And what about sidewalks and big parking lots?
It's residents' job to clear sidewalks and so it gets done to varying degrees or just ignored. Big parking lots use loaders to shove and scoop the snow into one big pile somewhere in the lot.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:25 AM on November 20, 2022
If needs must, they can use earthmoving equipment. Some they can attach plows to. Or they can use (probably not the right word) loader buckets to either just push the snow to the side of the road or load it into dump trucks to go Somewhere Else.
Plus... where would the snow go, anyway?
In the burbs where I've lived -- Snyder and now Clarence Center -- it mostly just sits where the plows put it, in big piles on the strip of grass between sidewalk and street. After 12+ inch snowfalls, the berms will be chest-high. They get knocked down surprisingly quickly in the next rain.
In the city it's a mix of that and loading into trucks that dump it, mostly, into mostly-disused parking lots
And what about sidewalks and big parking lots?
It's residents' job to clear sidewalks and so it gets done to varying degrees or just ignored. Big parking lots use loaders to shove and scoop the snow into one big pile somewhere in the lot.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:25 AM on November 20, 2022
If the plows had some kind of giant snowblower attachment, they could blow the snow up-and-over the embankment
Another problem with throwing snow up over the embankment is that, like, there might not be any more room on the other side of the embankment in a dense urban area! I live just outside of Boston, where we don't deal with such huge amounts of snow as Buffalo does, but it can get out of hand. Several years ago when we had a really punishingly snowy winter and my front yard was only maybe eight feet from the porch to the sidewalk, it got to where there was literally nowhere to put the snow - the entire yard was like five feet deep for weeks.
Some strategies the city/region used/uses: trucking snow to "snow farms" where it can melt over time (the snow is filthy and disgusting so these places are practically hazmat sites). To get the snow in the truck, they either lift it in with construction equipment like a front-end loader OR they use special plows that basically snowblow the snow into the truck, so like the plow and the dump truck drive right next to each other and shave down the snowbank.
There is also equipment that will melt the snow onsite and then you can dump the water down a storm drain - I think this is popular in Canada?
Also in several MA towns I've lived in, if the temperature is over 40F you're allowed to dump some of your snow back into the street to melt.
posted by mskyle at 10:26 AM on November 20, 2022
Another problem with throwing snow up over the embankment is that, like, there might not be any more room on the other side of the embankment in a dense urban area! I live just outside of Boston, where we don't deal with such huge amounts of snow as Buffalo does, but it can get out of hand. Several years ago when we had a really punishingly snowy winter and my front yard was only maybe eight feet from the porch to the sidewalk, it got to where there was literally nowhere to put the snow - the entire yard was like five feet deep for weeks.
Some strategies the city/region used/uses: trucking snow to "snow farms" where it can melt over time (the snow is filthy and disgusting so these places are practically hazmat sites). To get the snow in the truck, they either lift it in with construction equipment like a front-end loader OR they use special plows that basically snowblow the snow into the truck, so like the plow and the dump truck drive right next to each other and shave down the snowbank.
There is also equipment that will melt the snow onsite and then you can dump the water down a storm drain - I think this is popular in Canada?
Also in several MA towns I've lived in, if the temperature is over 40F you're allowed to dump some of your snow back into the street to melt.
posted by mskyle at 10:26 AM on November 20, 2022
In my area of Massachusetts, big parking lots are actually designated for snow piles - they close half the parking lot and fill it with snow. When it's really a lot of snow, they basically just put anywhere they can - in 2013, Boston requested permission to dump snow in the harbor (not allowed normally for environmental reasons). Many streets become effectively closed because the snowbanks don't allow passage, or effectively one-way. The answer is, they pile it anywhere convenient, it isn't really all that organized.
posted by epanalepsis at 10:26 AM on November 20, 2022
posted by epanalepsis at 10:26 AM on November 20, 2022
Thanks for all the great answers. Sorry for threadsitting, but I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this. Suppose I live in a house, and I haven't cleared any snow since the start of the storm. But now I want to go outside and start shoveling my driveway. I open up my front door and see a five-foot wall of snow. Now what? Do I tunnel through it, or somehow try to climb on top of it with snowshoes, or...? What is my first step in getting outside to start shoveling?
posted by akk2014 at 10:39 AM on November 20, 2022
posted by akk2014 at 10:39 AM on November 20, 2022
To answer your latest q, The most snow I've ever dealt with was in Harrisburg, PA a few years ago, where we got ~3 feet. Not quite what they’re seeing up in Buffalo but still a lot.
Lived in a 4 unit apartment building at the time, with a big driveway. We sort of all waded our way to the cars wearing snowpants and boots and started digging them out. We did just have to start removing snow by hand, even with the big snowdrifts which were probably closer to five feet. If that’s any indicator, I imagine it'll be a combination of snow shoes/cutting your path forward. I imagine that’s what most people will be trying to do.
For our apartment driveway the landlord brought in a smallish snow plow that immediately died lol so we did just try to cut through the snow with shovels as best we could. Took forever.
posted by bxvr at 10:49 AM on November 20, 2022
Lived in a 4 unit apartment building at the time, with a big driveway. We sort of all waded our way to the cars wearing snowpants and boots and started digging them out. We did just have to start removing snow by hand, even with the big snowdrifts which were probably closer to five feet. If that’s any indicator, I imagine it'll be a combination of snow shoes/cutting your path forward. I imagine that’s what most people will be trying to do.
For our apartment driveway the landlord brought in a smallish snow plow that immediately died lol so we did just try to cut through the snow with shovels as best we could. Took forever.
posted by bxvr at 10:49 AM on November 20, 2022
The first step depends on factors such as how wet and packed the snow is, what equipment you have available to you, how many floors your house is, etc. But honestly, if you live in a place that regularly experiences lake effect snow (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and environs) you know enough to not let it get to 5 feet outside your front door. Throughout various snowpocalypses basically everyone I know did the same thing--at the minimum we kept a path shoved from the front door to the driveway and from the driveway to the street. Just a walking path. So that you could use it to cut in once the storm was over, take your dog out to use the facilities, etc. My dad has a snowblower so he would go the extra step of blowing out the driveway periodically to keep ahead of it. He'd also blow out the neighbors. Sometimes he'd be blowing once an hour, depending on how rapid the accumulation was.
But assuming you're new to the area or getting 5 feet of snow in a place that doesn't maintain the capacity to address it, the first step is to judge the quality of the snow. If it's wet and packed, you will need to climb out of your house from a window or perhaps the second floor. If it's light and fluffy, you can use a shovel to tunnel up and out.
As for where snow goes, everyone has covered this, but I will also mention that in addition to parking lots and fields, snow is often piled up at corners of street intersections, making visibility for turning reduced for much of the winter due to ever-increasing accumulation.
posted by MagnificentVacuum at 11:30 AM on November 20, 2022
But assuming you're new to the area or getting 5 feet of snow in a place that doesn't maintain the capacity to address it, the first step is to judge the quality of the snow. If it's wet and packed, you will need to climb out of your house from a window or perhaps the second floor. If it's light and fluffy, you can use a shovel to tunnel up and out.
As for where snow goes, everyone has covered this, but I will also mention that in addition to parking lots and fields, snow is often piled up at corners of street intersections, making visibility for turning reduced for much of the winter due to ever-increasing accumulation.
posted by MagnificentVacuum at 11:30 AM on November 20, 2022
We don't get snow like Buffalo, but Minnesota still gets it's fair share. I have also lived along Lake Superior where I had some lake effect snow.
Basically, for home snow care:
- get out early. Shovel early and often, even while it's snowing.
- either pile it wide now or pile it high later. For the first snow you should really fling/carry it as far from the sidewalk/driveway as you can. Otherwise, if you put piles right next to the driveway you'll block off future snow piling and your driveway will shrink as you struggle to throw snow over those early piles.
- don't forget about your dogs of short stature. We used to have to dig out a potty pit for our short-legged dogs so that they could do their business without having to break a path or disappear into a snowdrift.
When I was in high school I had a friend who had recently arrived in MN from Nigeria and had never seen big snow in person. The thing that surprised her the most was that the snow stuck around and we had to deal with it. She said it was like two feet of dirt fell from the sky and we had to move it around until spring. She understood what snow was, of course, but had never thought about where we put it when we take it off the roads and sidewalks. The answer was small piles by sidewalks, bigger piles by driveways, giant piles by parking lots, big chimney-like things in the middle of parking garages where snow gets pushed by plows on upper levels, and - when it gets really bad - mountains of snow on empty lots brought in by dump trucks, moved out of heavily populated areas where there just wasn't room to store it. Some of those mountains literally stick around until mid-summer (super gross slushy mud snow at that point).
posted by Gray Duck at 11:42 AM on November 20, 2022
Basically, for home snow care:
- get out early. Shovel early and often, even while it's snowing.
- either pile it wide now or pile it high later. For the first snow you should really fling/carry it as far from the sidewalk/driveway as you can. Otherwise, if you put piles right next to the driveway you'll block off future snow piling and your driveway will shrink as you struggle to throw snow over those early piles.
- don't forget about your dogs of short stature. We used to have to dig out a potty pit for our short-legged dogs so that they could do their business without having to break a path or disappear into a snowdrift.
When I was in high school I had a friend who had recently arrived in MN from Nigeria and had never seen big snow in person. The thing that surprised her the most was that the snow stuck around and we had to deal with it. She said it was like two feet of dirt fell from the sky and we had to move it around until spring. She understood what snow was, of course, but had never thought about where we put it when we take it off the roads and sidewalks. The answer was small piles by sidewalks, bigger piles by driveways, giant piles by parking lots, big chimney-like things in the middle of parking garages where snow gets pushed by plows on upper levels, and - when it gets really bad - mountains of snow on empty lots brought in by dump trucks, moved out of heavily populated areas where there just wasn't room to store it. Some of those mountains literally stick around until mid-summer (super gross slushy mud snow at that point).
posted by Gray Duck at 11:42 AM on November 20, 2022
"I open up my front door and see a five-foot wall of snow. Now what? Do I tunnel through it, or somehow try to climb on top of it with snowshoes, or...? What is my first step in getting outside to start shoveling?"
I live in Buffalo (specifically Amherst, a suburb on the northeast corner).
Most people don't let it get to this point. They work throughout the day so it doesn't get that high. But if you did let it get bad, you'd be screwed. Chances are, you'd have to call a neighbor to come help, or even call the fire department to send someone. My guess is that a lot of pictures you see of people's front doors wide open to a wall of snow are a: more snowdrift than snowfall, and b: the one door in their house that they didn't clear out because it would make a great post on Facebook.
A few things to keep in mind:
1. The city of Buffalo does (and did) get a lot of snow, but this is far from the most we've gotten (except in one suburb — Orchard Park (where the Bills play) set a record). Most of the snow we get in the area hits the suburbs south of the city (like Orchard Park), because they're in line with Lake Erie. Still, the city does take a lot longer to clear out, for reasons stated above (mainly, narrow streets with on-street parking leaving no room for plows and even less room to put the snow). Im close to the city line and I only have a foot.
2. Most towns around here have more snow clearing equipment than most major cities, and plenty of experience using it. So when the news talks about these things like they're some kind of major disaster, I'm always amused, because with the exception of two small suburbs, everything will be back to normal tomorrow. City streets will take a while to clear, but they always do. They'll often use payloders to get down narrower streets and then dump the snow into a dump truck and then dump it in a parking lot.
posted by jonathanhughes at 12:31 PM on November 20, 2022
I live in Buffalo (specifically Amherst, a suburb on the northeast corner).
Most people don't let it get to this point. They work throughout the day so it doesn't get that high. But if you did let it get bad, you'd be screwed. Chances are, you'd have to call a neighbor to come help, or even call the fire department to send someone. My guess is that a lot of pictures you see of people's front doors wide open to a wall of snow are a: more snowdrift than snowfall, and b: the one door in their house that they didn't clear out because it would make a great post on Facebook.
A few things to keep in mind:
1. The city of Buffalo does (and did) get a lot of snow, but this is far from the most we've gotten (except in one suburb — Orchard Park (where the Bills play) set a record). Most of the snow we get in the area hits the suburbs south of the city (like Orchard Park), because they're in line with Lake Erie. Still, the city does take a lot longer to clear out, for reasons stated above (mainly, narrow streets with on-street parking leaving no room for plows and even less room to put the snow). Im close to the city line and I only have a foot.
2. Most towns around here have more snow clearing equipment than most major cities, and plenty of experience using it. So when the news talks about these things like they're some kind of major disaster, I'm always amused, because with the exception of two small suburbs, everything will be back to normal tomorrow. City streets will take a while to clear, but they always do. They'll often use payloders to get down narrower streets and then dump the snow into a dump truck and then dump it in a parking lot.
posted by jonathanhughes at 12:31 PM on November 20, 2022
For the regular management of lots of snow, Montreal does it supremely well. Here's a description of the logistics: Déneigement Montreal — The Prepared (in English, despite the title)
Toronto (which gets toy amounts of snow compared to Buffalo or London, ON) has a couple of snow melters which can accept a front loader bucket of snow and get it liquid enough to feed down the storm drain. The city can be reluctant to use them, however, as the first time it was put in service it caused a personal (non life-threatening) injury that I was unlucky enough to witness.
A wind energy project I used to manage on the north shore of Lake Erie once got 5 metres of snow blown across the access road. It took a front loader and almost a whole day to clear it. The county hadn't cleared brush out of the ditches, and this was enough to cause the snow to accumulate rather than blow on over to London as it's supposed to ☺
posted by scruss at 2:22 PM on November 20, 2022
Toronto (which gets toy amounts of snow compared to Buffalo or London, ON) has a couple of snow melters which can accept a front loader bucket of snow and get it liquid enough to feed down the storm drain. The city can be reluctant to use them, however, as the first time it was put in service it caused a personal (non life-threatening) injury that I was unlucky enough to witness.
A wind energy project I used to manage on the north shore of Lake Erie once got 5 metres of snow blown across the access road. It took a front loader and almost a whole day to clear it. The county hadn't cleared brush out of the ditches, and this was enough to cause the snow to accumulate rather than blow on over to London as it's supposed to ☺
posted by scruss at 2:22 PM on November 20, 2022
If it's wet and packed, you will need to climb out of your house from a window or perhaps the second floor. If it's light and fluffy, you can use a shovel to tunnel up and out.
This also depends on whether you have a screen door that swings out, because if so, you definitely will have to start from outside.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:50 PM on November 20, 2022
This also depends on whether you have a screen door that swings out, because if so, you definitely will have to start from outside.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:50 PM on November 20, 2022
My favorite Buffalo memory was watching my neighbor march up and down his driveway during a lake effect snowstorm (not nearly as bad as this one--we "only" got a couple feet) catching the snow in his snow blower as it fell and ejecting it off his driveway before it had a chance to accumulate. You have to stay one step ahead of it or else it will literally bury you alive. When you live along the great lakes you learn this the hard way, once, and never let it happen again.
posted by Amy93 at 6:00 PM on November 20, 2022
posted by Amy93 at 6:00 PM on November 20, 2022
Hi from Buffalo!
Yes to a lot of what everyone has said above, especially about not letting it accumulate.
A few years back when I lived on a main road in a southern suburb, and we had several weeks of consecutive big snows with no melts between, the piles next to our driveways were so tall it was impossible to pull out safely. Someone (county? State?) sent out backhoes and dump trucks in the middle of the night. They scooped the snow into the trucks, who drove it…somewhere, dumped it off, and came back for more.
posted by okayokayigive at 6:41 PM on November 20, 2022
Yes to a lot of what everyone has said above, especially about not letting it accumulate.
A few years back when I lived on a main road in a southern suburb, and we had several weeks of consecutive big snows with no melts between, the piles next to our driveways were so tall it was impossible to pull out safely. Someone (county? State?) sent out backhoes and dump trucks in the middle of the night. They scooped the snow into the trucks, who drove it…somewhere, dumped it off, and came back for more.
posted by okayokayigive at 6:41 PM on November 20, 2022
One thing to think about from a house owner’s perspective is that there’s nowhere to go just before (because you don’t want to get stuck away from home), during, or just after a snow like that. So what else are you going to do except go out and shovel once in a while? Not many people just stay inside and wait for the end. (Also it never ends when you live in those areas - the end of this episode isn’t far from the next time it will start snowing again). (Also a typical household snowblower can deal with more than a foot of snow at a time so as long as you go out every foot or so to snowblow,you’re good.)
posted by Tandem Affinity at 7:30 PM on November 20, 2022
posted by Tandem Affinity at 7:30 PM on November 20, 2022
I live in Montreal, which has a similar snow accumulation problem to Buffalo.
Montreal has a very sophisticated system of snow plowing and snow removal. During a snowstorm, plows run continuously on the streets and sidewalks to displace the snow into giant drifts between the sidewalk and street. After the snowfall is finished, the snow removal process starts, which basically involves giant snowblowing machines sucking up the drifts and shooting the snow into big open-top semi trucks. Then the trucks drive the snow to the outskirts of the city, where it’s either melted down by heaters, or dumped into giant snow depots where it will sit all winter and slowly melt in the spring.
Read more in the Wikipedia article. It’s really cool.
posted by mekily at 9:40 PM on November 20, 2022
Montreal has a very sophisticated system of snow plowing and snow removal. During a snowstorm, plows run continuously on the streets and sidewalks to displace the snow into giant drifts between the sidewalk and street. After the snowfall is finished, the snow removal process starts, which basically involves giant snowblowing machines sucking up the drifts and shooting the snow into big open-top semi trucks. Then the trucks drive the snow to the outskirts of the city, where it’s either melted down by heaters, or dumped into giant snow depots where it will sit all winter and slowly melt in the spring.
Read more in the Wikipedia article. It’s really cool.
posted by mekily at 9:40 PM on November 20, 2022
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posted by box at 9:52 AM on November 20, 2022