Help me get some perspective on a fulfilling life with/without children
November 19, 2022 5:47 AM Subscribe
I (28) have wanted kids since I first realized I could be a functional enough adult to do a good job . My wife (25) told me about a month ago that she has been doing her best to reconcile herself to being a parent, but she feels now that she will not want to have kids. I'm having a crisis about it, she's not doing so hot either.
Please note that we are both trans and try not to make assumptions about our fertility options, gendered labor roles, etc. We've been married less than a year, in a relationship for five, and both tend to overthink things. She is perfectly content with just me, our dogs, and the loose contact that she maintains with her dad and long-distance friends. I crave a lot of social interaction, friends, and family around me, and I miss my family who live far away even though they also drive me nuts.
I know this is a couples counseling situation, but I'm looking for ideas/thoughts/stories/reading material to tide me over until we can get in somewhere. I feel like our communication about this issue is thoughtful and understanding towards each other but very emotionally charged. Disagreeing about this makes us both feel like maybe we will need to get divorced, even though neither of us wants that at all. When she first told me about her feelings, my response was 'Ok, we'll build the guest house we've been planning, and you can live there and I'll live in the main house with the kids.' Not my finest moment of making plans with my partner.
I am genuinely trying to explore what it would mean to have a life without children, so any advice about approaching that would be helpful. It's a major shift for me because normally any time I consider a life change I think about what it means for my future kids, how it will tie into parenting, etc. I'm also interested in books about relationship communication skills, stories about how you or couple you know handled this, etc.
Basically, we both feel concerned that if we change our mind, we will end up resentful towards the other, and in her case towards the kids as well, which would obviously be really bad. My wife and I agree that I can be pushy and she feels sometimes that she agrees to do things my way to make life simpler, but obviously that would be a huge mistake in this case. I am trying to be cognizant of how that pattern is influencing this situation and give her space to have and talk about her feelings. I know that particularly on this topic she has felt pressured and wants me to be happy, which is why she took so long to tell me about her feelings. I think we both feel like we need to 'hold our ground' in some way which I think is making the situation feel more tense. I am trying to be mindful of how things change over time, how our sense of conflict makes us hunker down in stubbornness, etc, but a lot of the time I just want to cry about losing my grip on something that feels really really important to me. I think we are both very afraid of loss here: loosing each other, loosing our shared and separate visions of the future and trying to sit with that but, uh, it's hard!
Reasons my wife doesn't want kids: loud, messy, whole house taken over by sesame street, moody preteen and teen years, thinks she'll resent them and me and thus scar them emotionally, etc.
Reasons I want kids: The reward of nurturing human beings into adults that have their own thoughts and experiences in the world, getting to have different relationships with them as they change. I like children generally, I think they're hilarious and weird and annoying and that's fine because so am I.
Other (relevant?) information: I have close but sometimes fraught relationships with my family of origin, and a complicated network of cousins, step/half sibling+parent relationships. My wife has a small nuclear family from whom she is largely estranged. We've both had a hard time with our families with being trans, and various other issues. We are living very different lives than our families imagined for us, in a lot of ways.
Deep down, I do feel like if I had to choose between my marriage and having children, I think I would choose children, but I am trying to get away from this kind of black and white thinking. I think we are open to alternative lifestyle choices to make things work, but we want to live together. I don't care about foster vs. adopt vs. pregnancy as ways of bringing children into my life. We have discussed looking into being foster parents as a trial run but my wife is a little bit like "whats the point?" since she knows she doesn't want kids.
Please note that we are both trans and try not to make assumptions about our fertility options, gendered labor roles, etc. We've been married less than a year, in a relationship for five, and both tend to overthink things. She is perfectly content with just me, our dogs, and the loose contact that she maintains with her dad and long-distance friends. I crave a lot of social interaction, friends, and family around me, and I miss my family who live far away even though they also drive me nuts.
I know this is a couples counseling situation, but I'm looking for ideas/thoughts/stories/reading material to tide me over until we can get in somewhere. I feel like our communication about this issue is thoughtful and understanding towards each other but very emotionally charged. Disagreeing about this makes us both feel like maybe we will need to get divorced, even though neither of us wants that at all. When she first told me about her feelings, my response was 'Ok, we'll build the guest house we've been planning, and you can live there and I'll live in the main house with the kids.' Not my finest moment of making plans with my partner.
I am genuinely trying to explore what it would mean to have a life without children, so any advice about approaching that would be helpful. It's a major shift for me because normally any time I consider a life change I think about what it means for my future kids, how it will tie into parenting, etc. I'm also interested in books about relationship communication skills, stories about how you or couple you know handled this, etc.
Basically, we both feel concerned that if we change our mind, we will end up resentful towards the other, and in her case towards the kids as well, which would obviously be really bad. My wife and I agree that I can be pushy and she feels sometimes that she agrees to do things my way to make life simpler, but obviously that would be a huge mistake in this case. I am trying to be cognizant of how that pattern is influencing this situation and give her space to have and talk about her feelings. I know that particularly on this topic she has felt pressured and wants me to be happy, which is why she took so long to tell me about her feelings. I think we both feel like we need to 'hold our ground' in some way which I think is making the situation feel more tense. I am trying to be mindful of how things change over time, how our sense of conflict makes us hunker down in stubbornness, etc, but a lot of the time I just want to cry about losing my grip on something that feels really really important to me. I think we are both very afraid of loss here: loosing each other, loosing our shared and separate visions of the future and trying to sit with that but, uh, it's hard!
Reasons my wife doesn't want kids: loud, messy, whole house taken over by sesame street, moody preteen and teen years, thinks she'll resent them and me and thus scar them emotionally, etc.
Reasons I want kids: The reward of nurturing human beings into adults that have their own thoughts and experiences in the world, getting to have different relationships with them as they change. I like children generally, I think they're hilarious and weird and annoying and that's fine because so am I.
Other (relevant?) information: I have close but sometimes fraught relationships with my family of origin, and a complicated network of cousins, step/half sibling+parent relationships. My wife has a small nuclear family from whom she is largely estranged. We've both had a hard time with our families with being trans, and various other issues. We are living very different lives than our families imagined for us, in a lot of ways.
Deep down, I do feel like if I had to choose between my marriage and having children, I think I would choose children, but I am trying to get away from this kind of black and white thinking. I think we are open to alternative lifestyle choices to make things work, but we want to live together. I don't care about foster vs. adopt vs. pregnancy as ways of bringing children into my life. We have discussed looking into being foster parents as a trial run but my wife is a little bit like "whats the point?" since she knows she doesn't want kids.
I have no children and I'm happy with that. I hang out with my niblings and my friends' kids and neighbor kids and I enjoy that. I'm happy to help out with other people's kids. I think watching kids grow up is absolutely fascinating. But I have also seen my friends and family with kids going through incredibly difficult stuff that I'm happy to have avoided. Even the "easy" kids seem very difficult to me. I appreciate the freedom I have without kids.
But - it seems like that's not how you feel about it! And that's totally OK! I think you probably *are* going to have to choose between your marriage and having children, and that you should probably choose children. You and your wife have been together since you were barely adults. I'm sure you've learned so much from each other and grown so much as people in the last five years. But it sounds like the relationship that was good for you in your twenties is maybe not the relationship that's going to work for you going forward. Maybe you'll be able to stay friends or even lovers, but if you want to live with your wife, and you want kids, and your wife doesn't want to live with kids... you'd all be living in the logic problem with the fox and the hen and the grain for your kids' childhoods.
posted by mskyle at 6:02 AM on November 19, 2022 [11 favorites]
But - it seems like that's not how you feel about it! And that's totally OK! I think you probably *are* going to have to choose between your marriage and having children, and that you should probably choose children. You and your wife have been together since you were barely adults. I'm sure you've learned so much from each other and grown so much as people in the last five years. But it sounds like the relationship that was good for you in your twenties is maybe not the relationship that's going to work for you going forward. Maybe you'll be able to stay friends or even lovers, but if you want to live with your wife, and you want kids, and your wife doesn't want to live with kids... you'd all be living in the logic problem with the fox and the hen and the grain for your kids' childhoods.
posted by mskyle at 6:02 AM on November 19, 2022 [11 favorites]
The reasons you give she said for not wanting them come off in a characterization a little bit like her reasons are frivolous compared to your virtuous ones. That may well be the case, but it struck me so thought I'd mention it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:07 AM on November 19, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:07 AM on November 19, 2022 [17 favorites]
Best answer: There's a huge amount of work around childlessness at the moment that you might find useful. It does often rest on pretty traditional assumptions of gender identity, though - probably the majority of it is written with an assumption of the audience being cis women, so how useful you find it, might depend how happy you are to cherry pick the pieces that resonate with you. The stuff I'm aware of is also for people who know for sure that they won't be having kids, rather than those still working through the experiences that lead to childlessness. But it might give you an idea of what it means to not have the kids that you wanted to have.
FWIW, the terminology tends to be childfree = by choice, childless = not by choice (which includes people who are childless by circumstance, such as 'partner didn't want kids', not only people with physical reasons for their infertility). Of course plenty of people are somewhere in the middle, and it's rare for there to be one clear-cut reason to end up childless, there are often many overlapping/complicated things going on.
So - Jody Day is one of the big names in this. She has a book called Living the Life Unexpected: How to find hope, meaning and a fulfilling future without children which gave me a lot of lightbulb moments when I read it. There's also an online community, Gateway Women. They have a forum, run in-person events etc. There's a page with resources for childless men. Again, all pretty cis-centric but in case you find some gems in there.
Good luck, it's a toughie, with no easy answers, but I do think that it's possible to find happiness either way, wherever it is you're starting from - it can just take work to get there if you don't end up taking the route you really felt you wanted. It's great that you're doing some serious thinking about it, with a view to making an active choice (as far as anyone can) rather than just drifting into it.
posted by penguin pie at 6:45 AM on November 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
FWIW, the terminology tends to be childfree = by choice, childless = not by choice (which includes people who are childless by circumstance, such as 'partner didn't want kids', not only people with physical reasons for their infertility). Of course plenty of people are somewhere in the middle, and it's rare for there to be one clear-cut reason to end up childless, there are often many overlapping/complicated things going on.
So - Jody Day is one of the big names in this. She has a book called Living the Life Unexpected: How to find hope, meaning and a fulfilling future without children which gave me a lot of lightbulb moments when I read it. There's also an online community, Gateway Women. They have a forum, run in-person events etc. There's a page with resources for childless men. Again, all pretty cis-centric but in case you find some gems in there.
Good luck, it's a toughie, with no easy answers, but I do think that it's possible to find happiness either way, wherever it is you're starting from - it can just take work to get there if you don't end up taking the route you really felt you wanted. It's great that you're doing some serious thinking about it, with a view to making an active choice (as far as anyone can) rather than just drifting into it.
posted by penguin pie at 6:45 AM on November 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
Raising kids is hard enough that people who don’t want them probably shouldn’t compromise and have them. (There are times where this isn’t quite the case.)
But raising kids is also joyful enough that not doing it when you want to is pretty awful. You can live a fulfilling and happy life without kids, but that’s harder if you wanted them. Not impossible, but a harder path.
posted by vunder at 6:53 AM on November 19, 2022 [18 favorites]
But raising kids is also joyful enough that not doing it when you want to is pretty awful. You can live a fulfilling and happy life without kids, but that’s harder if you wanted them. Not impossible, but a harder path.
posted by vunder at 6:53 AM on November 19, 2022 [18 favorites]
I'm child-free; I've never really wanted kids. I do like kids, though, and enjoy my friends' kids a lot.
Is there any possibility that you could be happy/fulfilled by being large presence in the lives of your nieces/nephews? or that this part of your life could be fulfilled by working closely with kids in some way, either as a volunteer or as a career?
I'll add one thing - while it may seem somewhat frivolous to not want to deal with children because they're messy/noisy/dramatic, these are things I would have said when I first realized I didn't want kids. But while true, they also masked some other personal truths about me that fed into the decision, that I didn't really have a way to articulate until much later.
Simply put - I'm a very introverted person who can literally become exhausted by interaction with other people, even other people I love, very easily. To be my best self, I need more space than a big family would allow me to have - especially a big family that I felt in some measure responsible for in the way that a mother or father is responsible for their kids. The best-case scenario for having kids is a commitment not just to their childhood years, but also to being a part of a family group for the rest of YOUR life, with family gatherings and maybe grandkids eventually and MORE family gatherings. I start to itch just thinking about this - it feels a lot like committing to unbearable social pressure until you die.
Note - I'm not saying this is what having kids IS like, or what all introverts experience or fear about having children, or what an introvert would feel like having kids. I'm saying this is what the idea of having children feels like to me, a singlular introvert. It might be worth exploring more deeply what it is that your partner feels when they think about the issue. And for that, you are right - it's probably a counseling thing, if you really want to stay together.
posted by invincible summer at 7:18 AM on November 19, 2022 [16 favorites]
Is there any possibility that you could be happy/fulfilled by being large presence in the lives of your nieces/nephews? or that this part of your life could be fulfilled by working closely with kids in some way, either as a volunteer or as a career?
I'll add one thing - while it may seem somewhat frivolous to not want to deal with children because they're messy/noisy/dramatic, these are things I would have said when I first realized I didn't want kids. But while true, they also masked some other personal truths about me that fed into the decision, that I didn't really have a way to articulate until much later.
Simply put - I'm a very introverted person who can literally become exhausted by interaction with other people, even other people I love, very easily. To be my best self, I need more space than a big family would allow me to have - especially a big family that I felt in some measure responsible for in the way that a mother or father is responsible for their kids. The best-case scenario for having kids is a commitment not just to their childhood years, but also to being a part of a family group for the rest of YOUR life, with family gatherings and maybe grandkids eventually and MORE family gatherings. I start to itch just thinking about this - it feels a lot like committing to unbearable social pressure until you die.
Note - I'm not saying this is what having kids IS like, or what all introverts experience or fear about having children, or what an introvert would feel like having kids. I'm saying this is what the idea of having children feels like to me, a singlular introvert. It might be worth exploring more deeply what it is that your partner feels when they think about the issue. And for that, you are right - it's probably a counseling thing, if you really want to stay together.
posted by invincible summer at 7:18 AM on November 19, 2022 [16 favorites]
I have never wanted kids. if we're being honest I am not sure I even like kids. I was extremely fortunate to find an SO that feels the same, and this was a conversation we had early in our relationship. I have been free to make my own calendar, so to speak - travel when it is convenient for me/us, for either work or holiday, also have an "extra work holiday" (it's quiet and I can focus with no meetings) during specific school holiday weeks here in DK. Earlier in my career I was the go-to person when on Friday it was discovered that "we need someone in Hong Kong on Monday", and that was very fun. As it is now we also enjoy the more flexible budget we have without child-related expenses, more flexible calendar, and devote ourselves to our rescue cats (cat tax).
posted by alchemist at 7:31 AM on November 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by alchemist at 7:31 AM on November 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
I am not sure this is a divide two people can overcome. I can say as a person who does not want kids, I'd much rather be single than have kids, like it wouldn't even be a decision. You sound like maybe the opposite. It is such a central decision in life.
You're I think at least in part asking for advice on how to envision a life without kids but those of us who don't want them can't tell you because it's like being asked "how do I breathe air instead of water?" I guess how I think of my life without kids is: I'll live as long as I live, and I hope it's mostly nice and I don't do anyone any harm, and then it will be over. My feelings of nurturing go toward my cats, and I don't have to worry about getting it wrong and them ending up miserable. My wish to be a good presence in the lives of others goes toward my friends and to some extent is fulfilled in my career. I don't expect these sound like satisfying answers to you, because they come from a place that isn't where you're coming from.
posted by less-of-course at 7:57 AM on November 19, 2022 [13 favorites]
You're I think at least in part asking for advice on how to envision a life without kids but those of us who don't want them can't tell you because it's like being asked "how do I breathe air instead of water?" I guess how I think of my life without kids is: I'll live as long as I live, and I hope it's mostly nice and I don't do anyone any harm, and then it will be over. My feelings of nurturing go toward my cats, and I don't have to worry about getting it wrong and them ending up miserable. My wish to be a good presence in the lives of others goes toward my friends and to some extent is fulfilled in my career. I don't expect these sound like satisfying answers to you, because they come from a place that isn't where you're coming from.
posted by less-of-course at 7:57 AM on November 19, 2022 [13 favorites]
As someone who has two children, the messiness and noise looms LARGE in my and my partner's life. They are 9 and 11 and I feel like I haven't been able to hear myself think for 11 years and I'm constantly battling other people's messes.
This despite them being well behaved, lovely people.
This despite me always having wanted kids with all my heart.
So I'm saying, her reasons for not wanting kids are very well founded and prescient. And I'm saying: If you want kids, you want them.
You should have kids, she shouldn't. I'm very sorry. :(
posted by Omnomnom at 8:04 AM on November 19, 2022 [26 favorites]
This despite them being well behaved, lovely people.
This despite me always having wanted kids with all my heart.
So I'm saying, her reasons for not wanting kids are very well founded and prescient. And I'm saying: If you want kids, you want them.
You should have kids, she shouldn't. I'm very sorry. :(
posted by Omnomnom at 8:04 AM on November 19, 2022 [26 favorites]
I was always on the fence about having kids, but ended up deciding to give it a go. It was by far the best decision I’ve ever made. I have experienced an amount of joy and fulfillment that honestly, I didn’t think was possible for myself.
That is all to say, that if you’re someone who has always wanted children, I would really hate to think of you not experiencing this. Or living with regret.
Having kids is not for everybody, though. Not everyone will have the experience I’ve had. Your wife’s reasons to not want them are valid.
So I think I agree with Omnomnom’s conclusion above. Sorry, this is so hard.
posted by imalaowai at 8:20 AM on November 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
That is all to say, that if you’re someone who has always wanted children, I would really hate to think of you not experiencing this. Or living with regret.
Having kids is not for everybody, though. Not everyone will have the experience I’ve had. Your wife’s reasons to not want them are valid.
So I think I agree with Omnomnom’s conclusion above. Sorry, this is so hard.
posted by imalaowai at 8:20 AM on November 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
My wife and I are childfree by choice, and in fact I went from being interested in dating her to *very* interested in dating her when she mentioned (before we were going out) that she didn't want to have kids (we were both in our late 20s at that point). We've been together for 22 years now and neither of us regret the choice. We both had a lot of different reasons for not wanting kids, but a couple of them were just not being willing to put in the work (emotional and/or physical) and the value we both placed on our free time. It's also made a huge positive difference to our finances and the sort of life (travel, especially) we've been able to lead on our salaries. She's an only child but I have two siblings with four awesome kids between them so we do get to be aunt and uncle, which is as close to child-rearing as I'd like to get.
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if one of us had changed our mind; if my wife had, I think I would have ended the relationship, as much as I love her, because I felt that strongly about it and I would have wanted her to have the chance to do so with someone else.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:31 AM on November 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if one of us had changed our mind; if my wife had, I think I would have ended the relationship, as much as I love her, because I felt that strongly about it and I would have wanted her to have the chance to do so with someone else.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:31 AM on November 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wanted to have kids and I now have one under what would likely be considered less than ideal circumstances (single parent, child with extra needs) and even knowing how hard it would be, I would 100% have my kid if I could go back and make the choice again.
I don't in any way think that kids are the only way to happiness. They are legitimately exhausting, messy and expensive under the best of circumstances. If someone doesn't want a kid, I would never ever suggest they should have one. But dang am I happy to have mine, even if every moment isn't magical.
posted by bighappyhairydog at 8:42 AM on November 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't in any way think that kids are the only way to happiness. They are legitimately exhausting, messy and expensive under the best of circumstances. If someone doesn't want a kid, I would never ever suggest they should have one. But dang am I happy to have mine, even if every moment isn't magical.
posted by bighappyhairydog at 8:42 AM on November 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Have you discussed with your wife what your relationship could look like if you choose to go ahead and have a child without her, if indeed you're willing to have a child on your own? I actually think that your idea of building a guest house for your wife so that she has her own child-free home is a good one. Lots of people don't want a child of their own but are (or would consider) being in a relationship with someone who has a child. Is your wife willing to be supportive alongside you as you explore having a child without her? Have you thought about how you would feel if do split from your wife and then end up not having a child for whatever reason? Could you find fulfillment in being a part of a child's life though something like the Big Brothers Big Sisters program (if you're in the US)?
posted by mezzanayne at 8:47 AM on November 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by mezzanayne at 8:47 AM on November 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
In the midst of this all, remember that your relationship can be a success even if it doesn’t last the rest of your life. Even if you have to go your separate ways for the next stages, you don’t have to think about it as throwing away the good experiences and support through changes you have gone through thus far. You can honor each other’s strength/values/happiness by parting ways amicably and staying friends, instead of forcing this issue as a wedge until it breaks you both. Success can mean letting go when the time is right.
posted by itesser at 8:54 AM on November 19, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by itesser at 8:54 AM on November 19, 2022 [20 favorites]
Just to put things in perspective, timewise:
- You've been together since she was 20 and you were 23
- You've been married less than a year
- You're contemplating divorce because of this issue
- You're "having a crisis about it"
Please slow down and be patient, there is no reason this needs to be a crisis. You are both still very young and this is not an urgent thing. You can table this issue for like, 5 years and still have plenty of time for kids. It's possible you will divorce for other reasons in the meantime, or one of you will change your mind. You sound really impatient to get started but have you considered that you might just have internalized the heterosexual societal narrative around 'correct life timelines' ie marriage is followed immediately by kids with no pause?
I was in a (queer, to be clear) relationship in my 20s where my partner really, really wanted kids and I really, really didn't. We had a ton of fights and emotional difficulties around this. They would literally just randomly start crying out of the blue because they thought they'd never have kids, but we were only like 25 at the time. We agreed to put the issue aside while my partner did grad school and we decided not to discuss it at all, which helped both of us. Then we ended up splitting for unrelated reasons. They still had plenty of time to have kids and those years of fights were literally just pointless suffering. Don't do that, it was not good.
Yes absolutely go to couple's counselling, but in the meantime just call a truce on this entire subject. You can wait a decade and there will still be time.
posted by 100kb at 9:31 AM on November 19, 2022 [29 favorites]
- You've been together since she was 20 and you were 23
- You've been married less than a year
- You're contemplating divorce because of this issue
- You're "having a crisis about it"
Please slow down and be patient, there is no reason this needs to be a crisis. You are both still very young and this is not an urgent thing. You can table this issue for like, 5 years and still have plenty of time for kids. It's possible you will divorce for other reasons in the meantime, or one of you will change your mind. You sound really impatient to get started but have you considered that you might just have internalized the heterosexual societal narrative around 'correct life timelines' ie marriage is followed immediately by kids with no pause?
I was in a (queer, to be clear) relationship in my 20s where my partner really, really wanted kids and I really, really didn't. We had a ton of fights and emotional difficulties around this. They would literally just randomly start crying out of the blue because they thought they'd never have kids, but we were only like 25 at the time. We agreed to put the issue aside while my partner did grad school and we decided not to discuss it at all, which helped both of us. Then we ended up splitting for unrelated reasons. They still had plenty of time to have kids and those years of fights were literally just pointless suffering. Don't do that, it was not good.
Yes absolutely go to couple's counselling, but in the meantime just call a truce on this entire subject. You can wait a decade and there will still be time.
posted by 100kb at 9:31 AM on November 19, 2022 [29 favorites]
Do you two have friends your age with kids? I thought I didn’t want kids for reasons. One of them was I just didn’t see how it could work logistically. I grew up in the suburbs with a SAHM but I live in a city and intended to keep working. Seeing my peers could have kids without their homes looking like a toy store exploded and without losing their identities helped me realize that having kids was something I could do and eventually something I wanted to do.
posted by kat518 at 10:00 AM on November 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by kat518 at 10:00 AM on November 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
I changed from adamantly wanting kids (refusing to date people who didn't want kids) to now being childfree.
My shift in perspective started when I read an article about mothers who secretly regret having a child. They felt unable to discuss it without being shamed, and indeed the article had hundreds of comments shaming the moms. The article mentioned the book "Regretting Motherhood" by Orna Donath, which I read.
I gradually realized there's an incredible amount of societal programming around the imperative to have children, especially for women. In movies, childless women in middle-age or old-age are always portrayed as sad and lonely, instead of glamorous and happy. Television often contains plotlines of childfree people changing their mind and being delighted, but almost never the opposite transition.
My friends began having children, and I noticed how tired and overwhelmed they became. They talked about losing their autonomy and how much they missed their old life. A few said they've been waiting for years for it to "get easier" and that it never actually seemed to get easier. They always added in "but it's the best decision I ever made!", but it was said with a haunted downcast look, not with the radiant smiles they had when discussing their previous "best decisions" like getting engaged or starting their dream job.
I looked around for more information. I read about how 50% of women who've given birth will go on to develop prolapse during their lifetime (where their uterus descends until it is protruding out of their vagina). Why wasn't I told about this? If this was any other health condition, and the doctor failed to mention a serious side effect that impacts 50% of patients, people would be livid.
After reading more books about the reality of parenthood, I decided to be childfree. When I told this to my friends, I was amazed at the number of people who said, "Oh, so then you won't judge me if I complain about parenting. ... It's so hard. If I could do it over again, I wouldn't have kids. I'm so envious of people who don't have kids." I do have a few friends who genuinely love being parents, but they are in the minority.
It's been years, and I'm very happy with my decision to be childfree. I feel like I dodged a bullet.
Good luck to you and your wife.
posted by sandwich at 10:20 AM on November 19, 2022 [24 favorites]
My shift in perspective started when I read an article about mothers who secretly regret having a child. They felt unable to discuss it without being shamed, and indeed the article had hundreds of comments shaming the moms. The article mentioned the book "Regretting Motherhood" by Orna Donath, which I read.
I gradually realized there's an incredible amount of societal programming around the imperative to have children, especially for women. In movies, childless women in middle-age or old-age are always portrayed as sad and lonely, instead of glamorous and happy. Television often contains plotlines of childfree people changing their mind and being delighted, but almost never the opposite transition.
My friends began having children, and I noticed how tired and overwhelmed they became. They talked about losing their autonomy and how much they missed their old life. A few said they've been waiting for years for it to "get easier" and that it never actually seemed to get easier. They always added in "but it's the best decision I ever made!", but it was said with a haunted downcast look, not with the radiant smiles they had when discussing their previous "best decisions" like getting engaged or starting their dream job.
I looked around for more information. I read about how 50% of women who've given birth will go on to develop prolapse during their lifetime (where their uterus descends until it is protruding out of their vagina). Why wasn't I told about this? If this was any other health condition, and the doctor failed to mention a serious side effect that impacts 50% of patients, people would be livid.
After reading more books about the reality of parenthood, I decided to be childfree. When I told this to my friends, I was amazed at the number of people who said, "Oh, so then you won't judge me if I complain about parenting. ... It's so hard. If I could do it over again, I wouldn't have kids. I'm so envious of people who don't have kids." I do have a few friends who genuinely love being parents, but they are in the minority.
It's been years, and I'm very happy with my decision to be childfree. I feel like I dodged a bullet.
Good luck to you and your wife.
posted by sandwich at 10:20 AM on November 19, 2022 [24 favorites]
You have to break up. You have to break up. You have to break up.
You know you've wanted kids forever. You already say if it's a choice between kids that don't exist and your wife who does, you will choose the kids. You need to break up.
I don't see the point in trying to convince you that a childfree life is worth it. You know what you want and you've known it forever. No point in trying to argue you out of it or trying to argue her out of it because she knows, too.
Look, I can think of one way to do it: polyamory. You have kids with someone else (I note on a few TV shows, the guy has knocked up some other woman and has a baby with her and is with the lady who doesn't want kids or want more kids--Jane the Virgin, Cougar Town), wife is the third in the relationship. But even then that means she'd have to be their stepmom, and I get the feeling reading this that stepmomming doesn't appeal to her either.
You have to break up over this. Sorry. She can't have a kid-free life with you and you don't want a kid-free life, period. Do you want to be fifty, having passed up kids for her and moping about it and being resentful of her every day? Do you want her to have caved in to have kids and be resentful of them and you every day?
Sorry.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:40 AM on November 19, 2022 [12 favorites]
You know you've wanted kids forever. You already say if it's a choice between kids that don't exist and your wife who does, you will choose the kids. You need to break up.
I don't see the point in trying to convince you that a childfree life is worth it. You know what you want and you've known it forever. No point in trying to argue you out of it or trying to argue her out of it because she knows, too.
Look, I can think of one way to do it: polyamory. You have kids with someone else (I note on a few TV shows, the guy has knocked up some other woman and has a baby with her and is with the lady who doesn't want kids or want more kids--Jane the Virgin, Cougar Town), wife is the third in the relationship. But even then that means she'd have to be their stepmom, and I get the feeling reading this that stepmomming doesn't appeal to her either.
You have to break up over this. Sorry. She can't have a kid-free life with you and you don't want a kid-free life, period. Do you want to be fifty, having passed up kids for her and moping about it and being resentful of her every day? Do you want her to have caved in to have kids and be resentful of them and you every day?
Sorry.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:40 AM on November 19, 2022 [12 favorites]
Have you contemplated the role the assumption of 'monogamy' plays in your current situation? If you have both assessed yourselves and you are both firmly monogamous, you are indeed in a fine pickle, as noted by many above. However, if you have not examined what consensual non-monogamy might allow for in your situation, it could provide for both of you to have the benefits of your current relationship, and those that are precluded by your current relationship.
posted by birdsquared at 10:51 AM on November 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by birdsquared at 10:51 AM on November 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I think for some people, the wanting kids/not wanting kids is just as deep as knowing your identity in other ways. I don’t think that’s true for everyone, but it was for my husband and I — we went through a lot of infertility and kept going.
I think you’re on the right track in taking time - I would say, given your ages, about 6 months - for you each to really determine what you want individually. I would not talk about it together during that time.
And then if it’s a deal breaker, you either rewrite the deal or part ways. This is one of those in or out things in a way. It’s hard, and I’m sorry if it works out that way.
I do not suggest “trying foster care.” First, foster kids have their own unique needs best met by those wanting to handle them. Second…in general one’s own kids really are different, because unless they have particular special needs (always a possibility), they learn how families operate from the people designing the family. So, as an example, my husband is a huge introvert. So my kids have learned from the time they could ambulate that there are times he’s in his office being quiet and learned to get me or to play outside his office door with Lego quietly. My extrovert friends’ kids did not learn this skill, ‘cause it wasn’t a thing at home. So other people’s kids are more jarring.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:03 AM on November 19, 2022 [13 favorites]
I think you’re on the right track in taking time - I would say, given your ages, about 6 months - for you each to really determine what you want individually. I would not talk about it together during that time.
And then if it’s a deal breaker, you either rewrite the deal or part ways. This is one of those in or out things in a way. It’s hard, and I’m sorry if it works out that way.
I do not suggest “trying foster care.” First, foster kids have their own unique needs best met by those wanting to handle them. Second…in general one’s own kids really are different, because unless they have particular special needs (always a possibility), they learn how families operate from the people designing the family. So, as an example, my husband is a huge introvert. So my kids have learned from the time they could ambulate that there are times he’s in his office being quiet and learned to get me or to play outside his office door with Lego quietly. My extrovert friends’ kids did not learn this skill, ‘cause it wasn’t a thing at home. So other people’s kids are more jarring.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:03 AM on November 19, 2022 [13 favorites]
It sounds like you know you want kids unambiguously, and it sounds like your wife knows unambiguously that she doesn't want kids. There is no "compromise" there - and this is not something that can be argued - this is a major life decision that you both should be stubborn about!
As someone else mentioned, the only way this might work is if your wife would be open to some polyamorous situation, where you nest with a new partner, while remaining a committed partner to her as well. So I'd focus your discussions less on changing each other's minds about kids (you shouldn't give up your deep desire for kids, and she shouldn't give up her desire to not have them), but on whether you can imagine alternative arrangements. If not, I'm afraid I agree with those saying divorce is your best option.
posted by coffeecat at 11:17 AM on November 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
As someone else mentioned, the only way this might work is if your wife would be open to some polyamorous situation, where you nest with a new partner, while remaining a committed partner to her as well. So I'd focus your discussions less on changing each other's minds about kids (you shouldn't give up your deep desire for kids, and she shouldn't give up her desire to not have them), but on whether you can imagine alternative arrangements. If not, I'm afraid I agree with those saying divorce is your best option.
posted by coffeecat at 11:17 AM on November 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Wow, this is a tough one.
My own experience: I fit into nicely into the fierce uncle with no kids category. Temperamentally I'm simply not suited for parenthood, and from a genetic standpoint literally the worst thing I could do to any human would be to pass various health issues on to them. This particular combination of genes ends here.
The whole language around this topic ("childless" and "childfree") is so loaded it's hard to even have a discussion about it. Given your background I'm guessing you're thoroughly familiar with how biased language can be, so my only really suggestion is to be very thoughtful in your words with your partner.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:32 PM on November 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
My own experience: I fit into nicely into the fierce uncle with no kids category. Temperamentally I'm simply not suited for parenthood, and from a genetic standpoint literally the worst thing I could do to any human would be to pass various health issues on to them. This particular combination of genes ends here.
The whole language around this topic ("childless" and "childfree") is so loaded it's hard to even have a discussion about it. Given your background I'm guessing you're thoroughly familiar with how biased language can be, so my only really suggestion is to be very thoughtful in your words with your partner.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:32 PM on November 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Don’t lose time, it will take time to get over this relationship, and to sort out your next steps (whether that’s through another relationship with someone who does want kids, or getting situated financially for certain fertility or adoption options as a single parent). I wish I had your clarity at your age, I regret losing time. Your twenties and thirties whizz right by.
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:35 PM on November 19, 2022
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:35 PM on November 19, 2022
Oh, and as far as life without children is concerned in my case it has totally rocked. I've had plenty of money to spare and no responsibilities tying me down. I have not been everywhere and done everything, but I have been giving it a very good try.
I really enjoy my nieces and nephews, "official" and otherwise. I also really enjoy knowing that I can hand them back when I'm done.
But that's me. I do not think I have ever met an individual who at some point really wanted kids and fundamentally changed their mind. Yes people can adjust to anything, but that doesn't mean they'll be happy about it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:40 PM on November 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
I really enjoy my nieces and nephews, "official" and otherwise. I also really enjoy knowing that I can hand them back when I'm done.
But that's me. I do not think I have ever met an individual who at some point really wanted kids and fundamentally changed their mind. Yes people can adjust to anything, but that doesn't mean they'll be happy about it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:40 PM on November 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
'Ok, we'll build the guest house we've been planning, and you can live there and I'll live in the main house with the kids.
oh, she can live there, can she?
there is no reason on earth, other than financial reality, that a loving couple can't maintain two separate residences if one has children and the other doesn't wish to be their parent or step-parent, though I don't think it is a good idea to be married at the time. but telling her this fantasy of demoting and evicting her from her own home is a little bit beyond.
Deep down, I do feel like if I had to choose between my marriage and having children, I think I would choose children
have you told her this? do you plan to?
even if you don't plan to, be clear in your own mind that it isn't "marriage" on the lighter side of the scale, it's your wife. this is not idea against idea or relationship against relationship, but person against person. only one of these people is real. only one of them has any current claim on your loyalty.
when you have a living existing child, choosing them over a partner is the only right thing to do. good people do it, good parents. but that choice is not the one you are looking at. what you are thinking about is choosing a hypothetical person over a real one to whom you have committed yourself. you can do that -- obviously you can do that, , most people will tell you you should, and it sounds like you are going to -- but it is not the same choice and does not carry with it any of the moral gravity or even tragic nobility associated with prioritizing actual children over other people.
I hope she has a very strong sense of self-preservation and self-respect. she'll need it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:21 PM on November 19, 2022 [8 favorites]
oh, she can live there, can she?
there is no reason on earth, other than financial reality, that a loving couple can't maintain two separate residences if one has children and the other doesn't wish to be their parent or step-parent, though I don't think it is a good idea to be married at the time. but telling her this fantasy of demoting and evicting her from her own home is a little bit beyond.
Deep down, I do feel like if I had to choose between my marriage and having children, I think I would choose children
have you told her this? do you plan to?
even if you don't plan to, be clear in your own mind that it isn't "marriage" on the lighter side of the scale, it's your wife. this is not idea against idea or relationship against relationship, but person against person. only one of these people is real. only one of them has any current claim on your loyalty.
when you have a living existing child, choosing them over a partner is the only right thing to do. good people do it, good parents. but that choice is not the one you are looking at. what you are thinking about is choosing a hypothetical person over a real one to whom you have committed yourself. you can do that -- obviously you can do that, , most people will tell you you should, and it sounds like you are going to -- but it is not the same choice and does not carry with it any of the moral gravity or even tragic nobility associated with prioritizing actual children over other people.
I hope she has a very strong sense of self-preservation and self-respect. she'll need it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:21 PM on November 19, 2022 [8 favorites]
I find it heartbreaking that imaginary children trump a real life wife, but from what I hear from people who want kids, that is how it works.
Also, I'm sure kids would feel rejected by a mom-figure in the area that doesn't want them, if she moved to the guest cottage or whatever.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:15 PM on November 19, 2022 [10 favorites]
Also, I'm sure kids would feel rejected by a mom-figure in the area that doesn't want them, if she moved to the guest cottage or whatever.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:15 PM on November 19, 2022 [10 favorites]
Generally, people without kids report greater happiness and satisfaction than people with kids.
There are plenty of humans already, likely too many. But I believe in choice, either way.
From your description, your wife has a pessimistic view of children. You may have an optimistic view. Kids are such a crapshoot. You might have an easy kid who's pretty cheerful and manageable. You might have brilliant kid, an artist or scientist or philosopher. You might have a child with a significant handicap requiring so much care and expense and time. You might have a child with a mental health issue that makes them extremely hard to parent. Children test your marriage like nothing else. There's also no guarantee that you can make a baby, and fertility and adoption issues can be really hard.
At any stage of a relationship there can be a deal-breaker conflict. A job offer in another place where the spouse won't live. A severe illness. Decisions about kids. How much do you want to stay in the marriage with no guarantee that with or without children it will work? You and your wife have different life desires. Your spouse seems to want fewer people in close; you want more. You can make that work if you choose.
I hope you have an individual therapist to help you really clarify the way forward. This is not an easy conflict to resolve.
posted by theora55 at 6:34 PM on November 19, 2022
There are plenty of humans already, likely too many. But I believe in choice, either way.
From your description, your wife has a pessimistic view of children. You may have an optimistic view. Kids are such a crapshoot. You might have an easy kid who's pretty cheerful and manageable. You might have brilliant kid, an artist or scientist or philosopher. You might have a child with a significant handicap requiring so much care and expense and time. You might have a child with a mental health issue that makes them extremely hard to parent. Children test your marriage like nothing else. There's also no guarantee that you can make a baby, and fertility and adoption issues can be really hard.
At any stage of a relationship there can be a deal-breaker conflict. A job offer in another place where the spouse won't live. A severe illness. Decisions about kids. How much do you want to stay in the marriage with no guarantee that with or without children it will work? You and your wife have different life desires. Your spouse seems to want fewer people in close; you want more. You can make that work if you choose.
I hope you have an individual therapist to help you really clarify the way forward. This is not an easy conflict to resolve.
posted by theora55 at 6:34 PM on November 19, 2022
I'll try to answer the question you've asked. I don't have kids. I have a hobby that takes up a lot of time. I spend a lot of time devoting myself to my hobby and taking lessons to improve my hobby-related skills. The free time that I have outside of work is spent with my spouse or on the aforementioned hobby. My spouse and I enjoy traveling, we enjoy lots of walks/playing with our dog, we like going to dinners out, etc. I think if I had to cut way back on time on my hobby and dates with my spouse and instead devote that time to childcare, I'd feel really resentful. I think a lot of people would call this selfish and I agree that it is! I feel like I just want to spend my free time the way I want to spend it, enriching myself rather than enriching new humans I've created. Again, I realize this probably isn't a super popular view, but there it is.
Possibly relevant: I'm someone who never gets bored. There are always more hobbies and projects I want to take on, and seemingly never enough time.
So, my answer would be: a fulfilling life without children involves hobbies, tons of lovely time spent with one's partner, caring for and playing with pets, travel, and relaxing. Ohhhh and sleeping in on weekends!
I strongly suspect that if you really want kids, though, you're not going to like my answer or find it acceptable or helpful.
posted by whitelily at 6:58 PM on November 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Possibly relevant: I'm someone who never gets bored. There are always more hobbies and projects I want to take on, and seemingly never enough time.
So, my answer would be: a fulfilling life without children involves hobbies, tons of lovely time spent with one's partner, caring for and playing with pets, travel, and relaxing. Ohhhh and sleeping in on weekends!
I strongly suspect that if you really want kids, though, you're not going to like my answer or find it acceptable or helpful.
posted by whitelily at 6:58 PM on November 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
You've searched your heart and you've decided that despite however much you love your spouse, if you really were forced to choose between having kids and staying with your current spouse, you would choose kids. That is your preference and your preferences are VALID. Don't let anyone gaslight you into thinking no, you don't really want kids or you'd be better off without any. Maybe other people feel that way, but that's not how you feel. That is VALID.
posted by alidarbac at 12:06 AM on November 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by alidarbac at 12:06 AM on November 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I'm chiming in to say I regret having kids. My kids are 23, 21, and 16 now. They are all wonderful people, nothing major has gone wrong, and I love them. And in fact I loved the messy intensive little kid part, it's the launching them into being adults part that I feel really shitty about.
We live in a complex society, so complex that we regularly pay thousands of dollars for advice on how to exist in it (lawyers, financial advisors, career coaches, therapists, etc.). As they have gotten older and I've had to (poorly) help them with things like college admissions, job searches, car loans..... I am coming up against how bad I am at all that stuff.
Do you like school? Because damn I don't. I didn't like it the first time and every time I have to help my kids with homework, science fair, art projects, I hate hate hate it and I probably haven't been much help. Any every time I can't give the help needed or give shitty help I feel bad. And also tired. And sometimes I've just clocked out and they get less than some kid who's parents have more energy.
Do you like coercing people? Because that's what a lot of parenting is, making people do stuff they don't want to do, eat food, go to bed, get up from bed, do homework (have I mentioned I hate school?).
I really really wanted kids but if I woke up tomorrow as my 25 year old self with my current memories intact, I would not have kids.
posted by Jenny'sCricket at 2:09 AM on November 20, 2022 [14 favorites]
We live in a complex society, so complex that we regularly pay thousands of dollars for advice on how to exist in it (lawyers, financial advisors, career coaches, therapists, etc.). As they have gotten older and I've had to (poorly) help them with things like college admissions, job searches, car loans..... I am coming up against how bad I am at all that stuff.
Do you like school? Because damn I don't. I didn't like it the first time and every time I have to help my kids with homework, science fair, art projects, I hate hate hate it and I probably haven't been much help. Any every time I can't give the help needed or give shitty help I feel bad. And also tired. And sometimes I've just clocked out and they get less than some kid who's parents have more energy.
Do you like coercing people? Because that's what a lot of parenting is, making people do stuff they don't want to do, eat food, go to bed, get up from bed, do homework (have I mentioned I hate school?).
I really really wanted kids but if I woke up tomorrow as my 25 year old self with my current memories intact, I would not have kids.
posted by Jenny'sCricket at 2:09 AM on November 20, 2022 [14 favorites]
OP, when you see framing that has you weighing conceptual children against an actual partner, I would like to offer you: no, this is about two actual people. You, and your partner.
If you were asking about obligation toward hypothetical children, that would be different. You're not.
posted by away for regrooving at 9:13 AM on November 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
If you were asking about obligation toward hypothetical children, that would be different. You're not.
posted by away for regrooving at 9:13 AM on November 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Marrying you with the understanding that your marriage would include children and then changing her mind within five months doesn't make your wife a bad person (it makes her 25). Leaving your marriage to pursue parenthood also does not make you a bad person or a bad spouse, despite what a number of people are snidely suggesting here. Marriage is about building a life together, and you seem to be discovering that you want fundamentally different lives. I will also just say, without making any assumptions, that dating in your 30s when you want kids with a partner and either party's fertility is a relevant factor is really fucking stressful and I would not wish it on anyone.
posted by umwelt at 5:26 PM on November 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by umwelt at 5:26 PM on November 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Life is a crapshoot. To be honest, I'm a little put out by some comments here. I think some responses would be different if you'd said you and your wife had planned to have kids, agreed to have kids before your marriage, and THEN she told you nope, not happening. There would have been outrage; cries of deception; DTMF and all that.
As for choosing hypothetical children over your partner and not dealing with the person your wife is... how many of us chose a marital partner who just simply wasn't right for us down the road? If your soul wants children, to the point where you honestly feel that you'd choose those "hypothetical, non-existent, imaginary children" over your spouse, then you are not choosing hypothetical children - you are choosing what you truly want from life. People choose to leave bad-fit marriages all the time, for all kinds of reasons (one partner wants to party all the time, and the other cannot handle that. One partner wants to move to a different country, and the other refuses). It's sad; it's heartbreaking. But it's also cruel to ask either one of you to give up such an important aspect in your futures.
I always wanted kids. I had kids with a man who turned out to be an alcoholic drug user. In the really tough years, the single parent years, in the "I don't know how I'll pay my bills" years, I never ONCE regretted my kids. Not. One. Time. They are grown now, and we have excellent relationships, and I LOVE their company. If you know in your bones that you want children, don't deny yourself.
posted by annieb at 5:29 PM on November 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
As for choosing hypothetical children over your partner and not dealing with the person your wife is... how many of us chose a marital partner who just simply wasn't right for us down the road? If your soul wants children, to the point where you honestly feel that you'd choose those "hypothetical, non-existent, imaginary children" over your spouse, then you are not choosing hypothetical children - you are choosing what you truly want from life. People choose to leave bad-fit marriages all the time, for all kinds of reasons (one partner wants to party all the time, and the other cannot handle that. One partner wants to move to a different country, and the other refuses). It's sad; it's heartbreaking. But it's also cruel to ask either one of you to give up such an important aspect in your futures.
I always wanted kids. I had kids with a man who turned out to be an alcoholic drug user. In the really tough years, the single parent years, in the "I don't know how I'll pay my bills" years, I never ONCE regretted my kids. Not. One. Time. They are grown now, and we have excellent relationships, and I LOVE their company. If you know in your bones that you want children, don't deny yourself.
posted by annieb at 5:29 PM on November 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone who responded thoughtfully. My wife and I have discussed everything I said here and I think she would agree with the broad strokes. We've had conversations before where she's said things like "when we have kids..." so this recent conversation was a pretty sharp turn from that.
We've agreed to table the conversation for a couple of years and focus on us in the meantime. I think there are a lot of factors influencing both of our feelings. As many of you have pointed out, we are quite young and I think refocusing will let us approach this compassionately as a team, which is my priority.
I think some of you missed the mark when it came to 'Wisecracks don't help people find answers." but I appreciate that you're trying to help.
posted by Summers at 7:38 PM on November 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
We've agreed to table the conversation for a couple of years and focus on us in the meantime. I think there are a lot of factors influencing both of our feelings. As many of you have pointed out, we are quite young and I think refocusing will let us approach this compassionately as a team, which is my priority.
I think some of you missed the mark when it came to 'Wisecracks don't help people find answers." but I appreciate that you're trying to help.
posted by Summers at 7:38 PM on November 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
Adding one last thing, which hopefully isn't counterproductively stressful - people above have said that you have 5-10 years to deal with this. I respectfully disagree. By all means, take a year or two to work this all out, do counseling, if you need to separate, let it be the process it deserves to be. But don't sit on it for 10 years, or even 5. Unless you're 100% planning to adopt, don't wake up in your mid-late 30s looking at (literally, ask me how I know) hundreds of thousands of dollars of fertility treatments, on top of potentially trying to find another partner. 28 is young, but it's not as young as many in our generation seem to think it is.
(And regarding choosing "hypothetical relationships" over real ones - yes, I would have chosen my child over my husband if I had to. Maybe people who think otherwise lack an innate sense of what parenthood feels like. Or maybe they would feel differently from me, who knows. I knew that my child would be my most cherished relationship of all time long before she was born, and I was correct.)
posted by namesarehard at 4:37 AM on November 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
(And regarding choosing "hypothetical relationships" over real ones - yes, I would have chosen my child over my husband if I had to. Maybe people who think otherwise lack an innate sense of what parenthood feels like. Or maybe they would feel differently from me, who knows. I knew that my child would be my most cherished relationship of all time long before she was born, and I was correct.)
posted by namesarehard at 4:37 AM on November 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Thanks for your update!
I've been watching this, and one part I haven't seen come up that much is the financial one. I don't know you, your circumstances or what country you live in but I wanted to mention money. It takes tons to raise a kid, even before you start talking about higher education. In the next couple of years, while you mull this over, why not try making some of the kinds of choices you would need to, if you do go down this road? If you're not investing, put as much into your 401k as your employer will match. Offset taxes with as many contributions to your own IRA as you can. That sort of thing. You could even go see a financial adviser to map out for you what you would have to do before the age of 30 to be in a solid place.
Now, especially in the USA, you can't guarantee you won't suddenly have to pay a huge medical bill or something, making the whole house of cards come down. So you don't want to ruin your life just trying to accumulate money which could disappear one day. On the other hand, finance can be really kind of opaque. Some of your friends who may seem to be doing OK in a middle-class way are in fact getting a lot of help from family, for instance. Maybe you have that kind of financial ace in the hole, maybe you don't.
Good luck! You are way ahead of the game in terms of how much time you have to figure all of this out.
posted by BibiRose at 5:20 AM on November 21, 2022
I've been watching this, and one part I haven't seen come up that much is the financial one. I don't know you, your circumstances or what country you live in but I wanted to mention money. It takes tons to raise a kid, even before you start talking about higher education. In the next couple of years, while you mull this over, why not try making some of the kinds of choices you would need to, if you do go down this road? If you're not investing, put as much into your 401k as your employer will match. Offset taxes with as many contributions to your own IRA as you can. That sort of thing. You could even go see a financial adviser to map out for you what you would have to do before the age of 30 to be in a solid place.
Now, especially in the USA, you can't guarantee you won't suddenly have to pay a huge medical bill or something, making the whole house of cards come down. So you don't want to ruin your life just trying to accumulate money which could disappear one day. On the other hand, finance can be really kind of opaque. Some of your friends who may seem to be doing OK in a middle-class way are in fact getting a lot of help from family, for instance. Maybe you have that kind of financial ace in the hole, maybe you don't.
Good luck! You are way ahead of the game in terms of how much time you have to figure all of this out.
posted by BibiRose at 5:20 AM on November 21, 2022
Pretty much every couple I know who has realized that one of them wants kids and the other does not has broken up. And I think that's the right result, no matter how in love they are or how compatible they may be in other ways. The one couple I know who didn't break up had a baby, and the parent who didn't want to be a parent was miserable, and they ended up divorced eventually anyway over it, and now the parent who didn't want to be a parent has weekend visitation, during which the parent who did want to be a parent worries constantly (and from what I've seen, somewhat justifiably) that the child isn't well-cared for during those visits. Because the parent who didn't want to be a parent loves the child, but still hates being a parent.
It's just fundamentally a deal breaker, and not something you can compromise about. I'm really sorry you're going through this, and I won't pretend it'll be easy, because leaving someone you love and want to be with is one of the hardest things any of us may ever have to do emotionally. But you want to be a parent, and you still have time to make that happen for yourself, and I think you each owe it to yourselves to pursue the lives you want, even if that life isn't shared together.
posted by decathecting at 7:56 AM on November 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's just fundamentally a deal breaker, and not something you can compromise about. I'm really sorry you're going through this, and I won't pretend it'll be easy, because leaving someone you love and want to be with is one of the hardest things any of us may ever have to do emotionally. But you want to be a parent, and you still have time to make that happen for yourself, and I think you each owe it to yourselves to pursue the lives you want, even if that life isn't shared together.
posted by decathecting at 7:56 AM on November 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
It could be a deal breaker, but you might want to wait and see. My wife and I absolutely didn't want kids between 25-30+. It was only in our late 30s we both changed our minds and eventually did have one. Much later on we separated, I remarried, and have two more. On both occasions my wife was in her 40s. Things change, you're very young and you don't need to make decisions right now about every part of the future.
There's no guarantee in anything, of course, and you don't know what your partner is going to be thinking in the future. But that applies in all aspects of life. Meanwhile, enjoy yourself
posted by tillsbury at 5:29 PM on November 25, 2022
There's no guarantee in anything, of course, and you don't know what your partner is going to be thinking in the future. But that applies in all aspects of life. Meanwhile, enjoy yourself
posted by tillsbury at 5:29 PM on November 25, 2022
People here are being weird; it’s fine to want kids. It’s fine to want them so much that you realize this relationship isn’t for you. That’s what relationships generally are, two people who share life goals, whether those goals are “stay uncommitted and have fun once in awhile” or “raise a family together in the same domicile” or, whatever. Sounds like she changed her mind, so now it’s your turn to make up yourself.
I think the guest house comment was you catching yourself being pushy because you’re trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and you just can’t. It’s always nice to imagine we can make anything work with our Person but it’s generally not true, there are lots of major decisions that have to be mutual for a relationship to last over time. And that kind of meanness generally takes root when we feel we’re making huge, unfair compromises. Doesn’t matter if it’s objectively true, but it seems you think it’s a bridge too far.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:34 AM on November 26, 2022
I think the guest house comment was you catching yourself being pushy because you’re trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and you just can’t. It’s always nice to imagine we can make anything work with our Person but it’s generally not true, there are lots of major decisions that have to be mutual for a relationship to last over time. And that kind of meanness generally takes root when we feel we’re making huge, unfair compromises. Doesn’t matter if it’s objectively true, but it seems you think it’s a bridge too far.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:34 AM on November 26, 2022
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posted by Stacey at 5:58 AM on November 19, 2022 [5 favorites]