Why soapboxes?
November 5, 2022 3:05 PM Subscribe
The term "soapbox" is used in its modern meaning, I'm told, because people would stand up on upturned soapboxes in the street in order to yell their message at passers-by. But why soapboxes, and not any other type of box?
The internet seems to suggest this is because soapboxes in particular were sturdy and widely-available, but I don't understand why other boxes weren't sturdy or widely-available. Did people in the 19th century just use a lot more soap than I would expect? Was there a particular soap company that used especially sturdy boxes? Was there a specific story of someone standing on a soapbox in particular that popularized the term?
Please provide a source, if possible.
The internet seems to suggest this is because soapboxes in particular were sturdy and widely-available, but I don't understand why other boxes weren't sturdy or widely-available. Did people in the 19th century just use a lot more soap than I would expect? Was there a particular soap company that used especially sturdy boxes? Was there a specific story of someone standing on a soapbox in particular that popularized the term?
Please provide a source, if possible.
I mean, thinking about/researching which consumer products were mass produced during the 19th century seems like a good way to look at this. Bolts of fabric & mass produced clothing and shoes, oils, fuels, produce and agricultural products, candles, screws, tools, industrial objects... which of these are of uniform shape, small, solid & light enough to fit in one box of the right size to flip over and stand on.. probably there weren't that many products that would need this size and shape of well constructed container.
posted by latkes at 3:43 PM on November 5, 2022
posted by latkes at 3:43 PM on November 5, 2022
My main understanding of the origins of the concept come from Wobblies history and their free speech fights that were central to the heyday of the "soapbox" era... so maybe that's another place to look into primary sources.
posted by latkes at 3:48 PM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 3:48 PM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
c.f. Adam Savages One Day Builds: How to Make an Apple Box! - YouTube about 11:40 in for "Apple Boxes".
Having seen a bunch of old boxes that took a crowbar to open, they made boxes sturdy back then so yes you could stand on them without fear. Dunno about the soap bit.
posted by zengargoyle at 4:58 PM on November 5, 2022
Having seen a bunch of old boxes that took a crowbar to open, they made boxes sturdy back then so yes you could stand on them without fear. Dunno about the soap bit.
posted by zengargoyle at 4:58 PM on November 5, 2022
Oh, BTW...... were the Apple Box 8"x12"x20" exterior assuming 1/2" boards the inside would be 0.66242873 bushels. So an Apple Box is 2/3 of a bushel.
I would guess that there was just a political cartoon of a loudmouth on a box yelling at the crowd and somebody just put "SOAP" on the side of the box. Probably could have been anything.
posted by zengargoyle at 5:20 PM on November 5, 2022
I would guess that there was just a political cartoon of a loudmouth on a box yelling at the crowd and somebody just put "SOAP" on the side of the box. Probably could have been anything.
posted by zengargoyle at 5:20 PM on November 5, 2022
Film sets use very sturdy, standard-size wooden boxes (made just for film sets) to hold all sorts of things, and they're called apple boxes. Anything that needs to be held up, put down, etc. gets put on a few of these boxes They come in standard sizes: half-height ones called half-apples, 1/4 height ones called quarter-apples, and 1/8 height ones called pancakes.
Often when two actors are in a scene together, one will stand on, not a soap box, but a quarter apple box or pancake to appear taller. (On the X-Files, Gillian Anderson was so much shorter than David Duchovny that they had a whole system of boxes just for her, called Scully Boxes).
Anyway, these boxes bear only a passing resemblance to the actual boxes apples used to be shipped in but I guess that's what was used on 1930s film sets and while the box design morphed over time, the name sure stuck. Some variation of "Put it on an apple box" is said on every set about 10 times a day.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:26 PM on November 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
Often when two actors are in a scene together, one will stand on, not a soap box, but a quarter apple box or pancake to appear taller. (On the X-Files, Gillian Anderson was so much shorter than David Duchovny that they had a whole system of boxes just for her, called Scully Boxes).
Anyway, these boxes bear only a passing resemblance to the actual boxes apples used to be shipped in but I guess that's what was used on 1930s film sets and while the box design morphed over time, the name sure stuck. Some variation of "Put it on an apple box" is said on every set about 10 times a day.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:26 PM on November 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
This Merriam-Webster essay isn't quite as clear as you'd hope, but it suggests rhymedirective is correct in their first comment. The sense of "soapbox" as "a sturdy wooden box of a certain size that everyone understands" predates the sense of is as an oratorical platform
Given the relatively recent origin of the oratorical platform sense (1907) I feel that if it were connected to a single individual that would be well documented in contemporary accounts.
posted by mark k at 5:37 PM on November 5, 2022
Given the relatively recent origin of the oratorical platform sense (1907) I feel that if it were connected to a single individual that would be well documented in contemporary accounts.
posted by mark k at 5:37 PM on November 5, 2022
Around the turn of the last century, soap was the single product used for most of the purpses that w3e have specialised detergents etc. for. Not just washing people,but also clothes, dizhes, floors, walls and so forth, so there was a lot more used and therfore a lot of soap boxes about. A nice sturdy wooden box was useful for lots of thngs other than shipping soap, so not all of them would go back to the factory when theempties were returned.
Having said that though, I'm not sure why solid blocks of soap needed such sturdy packaging. Apple boxes make more sense, since apples bruise so easily. Maybe it's just that wood was used a lot more for all packaging rather than cardboard.
posted by Fuchsoid at 6:19 PM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Having said that though, I'm not sure why solid blocks of soap needed such sturdy packaging. Apple boxes make more sense, since apples bruise so easily. Maybe it's just that wood was used a lot more for all packaging rather than cardboard.
posted by Fuchsoid at 6:19 PM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Having said that though, I'm not sure why solid blocks of soap needed such sturdy packaging. Apple boxes make more sense, since apples bruise so easily. Maybe it's just that wood was used a lot more for all packaging rather than cardboard.
Soap boxes were solid crates with lids — good for standing on. Apple crates, in contrast, were open-top crates built with slats rather than solid sides and bottom — a lot less strong for standing on (apple boxes used in film production don't seem to have much relation to actual crates used for real apples).
Soap is a much more valuable commodity by volume than apples, so you can afford much more expensive boxes. Apples also need ventilation (as we know, one bad apple spoils the bunch) so you don't want a solid box to store apples. Fruit in Mexico still often comes in wooden crates, but they wouldn't support my weight!
Here's some discussion about what kind of containers various products came in at the time. Here are some images of various soap and other boxes from the relevant period. You can imagine that a nice finger-jointed specimen would be ideal for standing on.
posted by ssg at 9:30 PM on November 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
Soap boxes were solid crates with lids — good for standing on. Apple crates, in contrast, were open-top crates built with slats rather than solid sides and bottom — a lot less strong for standing on (apple boxes used in film production don't seem to have much relation to actual crates used for real apples).
Soap is a much more valuable commodity by volume than apples, so you can afford much more expensive boxes. Apples also need ventilation (as we know, one bad apple spoils the bunch) so you don't want a solid box to store apples. Fruit in Mexico still often comes in wooden crates, but they wouldn't support my weight!
Here's some discussion about what kind of containers various products came in at the time. Here are some images of various soap and other boxes from the relevant period. You can imagine that a nice finger-jointed specimen would be ideal for standing on.
posted by ssg at 9:30 PM on November 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
The internet seems to suggest this is because soapboxes in particular were sturdy and widely-available, but I don't understand why other boxes weren't sturdy or widely-available. Did people in the 19th century just use a lot more soap than I would expect?
Here is a list of regularly purchased household items for an English household in 1888. (The term "soapbox" to mean "give a speech" seems to have appeared in print in the 1890s.) It's not entirely clear exactly how many people are in this household, but at minimum it's 2 parents and two children. They seem to have budgeted for 1.5 pounds of soap per week- so 6 pounds of soap per month.
I think the big Ivory bars of soap are 4 ounces, so let's say you'd expect to go through 24 bars of soap in a month. This Curtis Davis "Unequalled Extra Soap" held 75 bars, or about 3 months worth of soap (I've seen others that held 100 bars). You wouldn't buy three or four months at a time unless you had a place to store it- but if you did you'd want a fairly waterproof, sturdy box with a lid.
As ssg pointed out, other ubiquitous crates, such as for apples or other produce- would need airflow. Looking at the other items on that Victorian purchases list: flour, coffee and sugar would come in sacks or possibly a tin. Bread you would purchase daily. Candles came in boxes, though from these labels, not large sturdy ones. Paraffin/kerosine would come in a tin.
So yeah, it seems like a widely available, sturdy box with a lid was often a soapbox.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:12 AM on November 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Here is a list of regularly purchased household items for an English household in 1888. (The term "soapbox" to mean "give a speech" seems to have appeared in print in the 1890s.) It's not entirely clear exactly how many people are in this household, but at minimum it's 2 parents and two children. They seem to have budgeted for 1.5 pounds of soap per week- so 6 pounds of soap per month.
I think the big Ivory bars of soap are 4 ounces, so let's say you'd expect to go through 24 bars of soap in a month. This Curtis Davis "Unequalled Extra Soap" held 75 bars, or about 3 months worth of soap (I've seen others that held 100 bars). You wouldn't buy three or four months at a time unless you had a place to store it- but if you did you'd want a fairly waterproof, sturdy box with a lid.
As ssg pointed out, other ubiquitous crates, such as for apples or other produce- would need airflow. Looking at the other items on that Victorian purchases list: flour, coffee and sugar would come in sacks or possibly a tin. Bread you would purchase daily. Candles came in boxes, though from these labels, not large sturdy ones. Paraffin/kerosine would come in a tin.
So yeah, it seems like a widely available, sturdy box with a lid was often a soapbox.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:12 AM on November 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I get the sense that it was like one of those cases where a specific thing got turned into the generic stand-in name - like how we call all photocopiers "Xeroxes" even if it was made by Panasonic or Sony rather than Xerox, or we call all tissues "Kleenex" or whatever. Shipping crates for soap, fruit, bread, or whatever were probably all a similar size, and people just started saying "soapbox" because listeners would understand the general size of the thing and no one really cared about the detail of "was it REALLY a soap box, or was it an apple crate?" If you heard "soapbox" you understood generally what it was.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:15 AM on November 6, 2022
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:15 AM on November 6, 2022
There once were a lot of sturdy crates being used for shipping, so they were repurposed a lot. I still see wooden crates outside the fish market. But a crate that was used to hold herring might not be the best thing to repurpose and carry around with you. I can tell when the herring boxes are out from the scent rising from them and the moisture trickling out of them. One advantage to using a soap box as opposed to a herring box or an apple box is that if the contents ever had been damaged and sat out dissolving into sludge you could still clean the box and not smell anything nasty on humid days.
Just like barrels, the wooden containers for shipping were standardized. Barrels started with the Quarter Cask, Rundlet and Tierce and got steadily bigger through Hogshead, Butt, Pipe and Drum until finally reaching the size of the Tun which could contain more than 954 liters. If you were going to ship stuff you ordered the containers in the size and shape that was most practical.
While packing cases also had their specific dimensions, weight, degree of impermeability and strength they were not as standardized as barrels and kegs were. The proportions of a barrel were standard because it held liquids, so one size and shape was superior to all others. You didn't make it shorter and wider because that would affect how strong it was and not give you an advantage over the optimal size and shape. But for packing cases you would want a much bigger range of sizes and weights and shapes. If you were shipping curtain rods you would want a different size crate than if you were shipping typewriting machines.
You might want there to be a lot of air circulation in your packing crate, such as if you were shipping lettuce so it wouldn't spoil as fast should it be exposed to some warmth, or none at all if you were shipping silk because if any moisture got in it would be wrecked. Sea chest would have a rounded lid, like you see in pictures of pirate treasure because then you couldn't stack them. This meant they didn't have to be as sturdy as chests and cases with flat tops.
If you were shipping delicate things such as glass bottles of some patented nostrum, you needed space in the box to stop the bottles from clinking. If you were shipping apples or vegetables, you would likely pack them between layers of straw so that one bad apple couldn't spoil the bunch, but if you were shipping manufactured goods you'd use sawdust, horsehair or some patented material such as excelsior.
Soap didn't need padding because if it broke when the crate was banged around it it could still be used, unlike the contents of a case of shattered bottles. This meant that there was no packing except maybe a bit of paper between layers, just a lot of soap closely spaced. This made it heavy, so the box had to be very sturdy. A soap box had to be impermeable, of course, because if it sat out beside the rail cars for a week in the rain, you didn't want the soap all turning into mush and seeping out the bottom of the box and whatever was left inside combining into a solid misshapen block when it dried. Since your soap box was solid and heavy, and it was likely being purchased for household use, that meant the box was fairly small but quite strong. You had a good idea how big a soap box was.
Soapboxes often had to be carried around by a housewife. She might have to store it inside where it was dry and then carry it out to the porch where she used her washing machine, something many people did so that splashing and water leaks didn't flood the kitchen. She also carried buckets of water to fill her washing machine or her wash tub so she was used to carrying stuff. To make it easier the soap box was often helpfully supplied with two holes up near the top rim, one on opposite side from each other, convenient for her to get a grip on. Those handles made it very useful to carry around the neighbourhood if you wanted to for some reason. Here is a picture of a household sized one with the two handles.
People didn't just stand on soap boxes, they put wheels on the bigger ones and made them into carts. A soap box was a very good choice for a cart because when the kids inevitable sent it hurtling down a hill it was strong enough that the sudden stop at the bottom didn't result in a pile of kindling, and the box was strong enough to potentially prevent harm to the youngster inside it. You wouldn't want use an orange crate if you could get something better - that would totally splinter. A sugar crate would be a good possibility tho - they were pretty sturdy and waterproof too. Of course no decent household did without soap, but many households were quite sparing in their use of sugar, and on the East Coast of North American many household bought molasses by the keg instead of sugar. Sugar crates were more typical in Europe.
Lots of places were furnished with old packing crates. They show up in thousands of black and white photographs. They came in so many sizes. If you lived in a brand new mining town, for example you were likely to end up living in a tent with a big lightweight crate for a table, some crates of a convenient height for chairs, and a few more crates to be your store cupboards. Soap crates could be turned on their sides to make them three different heights. The lowest way up gave you a bigger surface. The highest way up the lowest. If you were using it as the kitchen step stool it was versatile.
Crates could be scavenged in the cities for kindling, furniture for the impoverished and lumber to use for projects. They got use for shipping until their bottoms started to drop out and then got used for something else. Years later Hippies would scavenge milk crates from alley ways and use them to make furniture. The size of the milk crates dictated their use. You could sit on them although they were low to the ground, but the were great, combined with a few boards to make a bookcase and they couldn't be beat for storing your lp records in them; A Bob Dylan album fit perfectly.
Soap boxes did vary in size and shape as the decades went on, the same way that milk crates later on changed size and shape as milk went from glass to paper cartons, and in Canada from Imperial to metric. But like milk crates their purpose meant that their size and shape and strength was predictable. And because they were durable the same crate could end up being around for a hundred years or more.
People's grandfathers had one in the woodshed being used to hold kindling. There was one in the attic filled with rusty tools or skate blades. The markings on them ceased to be legible, or the companies went out of business but soap boxes more than most other types of boxes were survivors. They were a pain in the neck to disassemble, as they were so sturdily made, so the other boxes went first for kindling. They had a rough finish so you left them in the back of the barn for long term storage rather then using them to pack away the winter woolies every spring, so they might sit undisturbed for a decade in the basement full of forgotten mason jars, or under the cellar window for you to jump up to open it, and never get moved after the cellar window got painted shut and covered over with cobwebs. Their durability meant that their purpose name lasted. People who had never bought soap other than by the single paper wrapped bar would know what a soap box was. They hung around long after soap was shipped in corrugated paper cartons. But the corrugated paper cartons were really only able to take over after we made the switch to container shipping from using packing crates. That was the middle of the last century. By the middle of this one the word will probably be obscure enough that ordinary people will have never heard of them.
posted by Jane the Brown at 12:05 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Just like barrels, the wooden containers for shipping were standardized. Barrels started with the Quarter Cask, Rundlet and Tierce and got steadily bigger through Hogshead, Butt, Pipe and Drum until finally reaching the size of the Tun which could contain more than 954 liters. If you were going to ship stuff you ordered the containers in the size and shape that was most practical.
While packing cases also had their specific dimensions, weight, degree of impermeability and strength they were not as standardized as barrels and kegs were. The proportions of a barrel were standard because it held liquids, so one size and shape was superior to all others. You didn't make it shorter and wider because that would affect how strong it was and not give you an advantage over the optimal size and shape. But for packing cases you would want a much bigger range of sizes and weights and shapes. If you were shipping curtain rods you would want a different size crate than if you were shipping typewriting machines.
You might want there to be a lot of air circulation in your packing crate, such as if you were shipping lettuce so it wouldn't spoil as fast should it be exposed to some warmth, or none at all if you were shipping silk because if any moisture got in it would be wrecked. Sea chest would have a rounded lid, like you see in pictures of pirate treasure because then you couldn't stack them. This meant they didn't have to be as sturdy as chests and cases with flat tops.
If you were shipping delicate things such as glass bottles of some patented nostrum, you needed space in the box to stop the bottles from clinking. If you were shipping apples or vegetables, you would likely pack them between layers of straw so that one bad apple couldn't spoil the bunch, but if you were shipping manufactured goods you'd use sawdust, horsehair or some patented material such as excelsior.
Soap didn't need padding because if it broke when the crate was banged around it it could still be used, unlike the contents of a case of shattered bottles. This meant that there was no packing except maybe a bit of paper between layers, just a lot of soap closely spaced. This made it heavy, so the box had to be very sturdy. A soap box had to be impermeable, of course, because if it sat out beside the rail cars for a week in the rain, you didn't want the soap all turning into mush and seeping out the bottom of the box and whatever was left inside combining into a solid misshapen block when it dried. Since your soap box was solid and heavy, and it was likely being purchased for household use, that meant the box was fairly small but quite strong. You had a good idea how big a soap box was.
Soapboxes often had to be carried around by a housewife. She might have to store it inside where it was dry and then carry it out to the porch where she used her washing machine, something many people did so that splashing and water leaks didn't flood the kitchen. She also carried buckets of water to fill her washing machine or her wash tub so she was used to carrying stuff. To make it easier the soap box was often helpfully supplied with two holes up near the top rim, one on opposite side from each other, convenient for her to get a grip on. Those handles made it very useful to carry around the neighbourhood if you wanted to for some reason. Here is a picture of a household sized one with the two handles.
People didn't just stand on soap boxes, they put wheels on the bigger ones and made them into carts. A soap box was a very good choice for a cart because when the kids inevitable sent it hurtling down a hill it was strong enough that the sudden stop at the bottom didn't result in a pile of kindling, and the box was strong enough to potentially prevent harm to the youngster inside it. You wouldn't want use an orange crate if you could get something better - that would totally splinter. A sugar crate would be a good possibility tho - they were pretty sturdy and waterproof too. Of course no decent household did without soap, but many households were quite sparing in their use of sugar, and on the East Coast of North American many household bought molasses by the keg instead of sugar. Sugar crates were more typical in Europe.
Lots of places were furnished with old packing crates. They show up in thousands of black and white photographs. They came in so many sizes. If you lived in a brand new mining town, for example you were likely to end up living in a tent with a big lightweight crate for a table, some crates of a convenient height for chairs, and a few more crates to be your store cupboards. Soap crates could be turned on their sides to make them three different heights. The lowest way up gave you a bigger surface. The highest way up the lowest. If you were using it as the kitchen step stool it was versatile.
Crates could be scavenged in the cities for kindling, furniture for the impoverished and lumber to use for projects. They got use for shipping until their bottoms started to drop out and then got used for something else. Years later Hippies would scavenge milk crates from alley ways and use them to make furniture. The size of the milk crates dictated their use. You could sit on them although they were low to the ground, but the were great, combined with a few boards to make a bookcase and they couldn't be beat for storing your lp records in them; A Bob Dylan album fit perfectly.
Soap boxes did vary in size and shape as the decades went on, the same way that milk crates later on changed size and shape as milk went from glass to paper cartons, and in Canada from Imperial to metric. But like milk crates their purpose meant that their size and shape and strength was predictable. And because they were durable the same crate could end up being around for a hundred years or more.
People's grandfathers had one in the woodshed being used to hold kindling. There was one in the attic filled with rusty tools or skate blades. The markings on them ceased to be legible, or the companies went out of business but soap boxes more than most other types of boxes were survivors. They were a pain in the neck to disassemble, as they were so sturdily made, so the other boxes went first for kindling. They had a rough finish so you left them in the back of the barn for long term storage rather then using them to pack away the winter woolies every spring, so they might sit undisturbed for a decade in the basement full of forgotten mason jars, or under the cellar window for you to jump up to open it, and never get moved after the cellar window got painted shut and covered over with cobwebs. Their durability meant that their purpose name lasted. People who had never bought soap other than by the single paper wrapped bar would know what a soap box was. They hung around long after soap was shipped in corrugated paper cartons. But the corrugated paper cartons were really only able to take over after we made the switch to container shipping from using packing crates. That was the middle of the last century. By the middle of this one the word will probably be obscure enough that ordinary people will have never heard of them.
posted by Jane the Brown at 12:05 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Awesome Jane the Brown, get this, my nightstand is 20 years old and is the box one of my eary computers was shipped in turned up on end. Who else had the university apartment wall of bookshelves made out of stolen milk crates? Or even beds at top bunk height sitting on a stack of milk crates? Boxes are cool!
posted by zengargoyle at 11:49 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by zengargoyle at 11:49 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by rhymedirective at 3:24 PM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]