YANAE, YANME
August 19, 2022 10:39 AM Subscribe
An electrical outlet works for a moment before quitting. Replacing it did not help. So....now what?
An outlet in a seldom-used guest room is connected to a light switch and I have an overhead light plugged into it. I tried to turn on the light and it went on for a split second before turning off. Tried the light in a different outlet and it works just fine. Bought a replacement outlet and installed it today but that did not fix the problem.
I know next to nothing about electrical work and I’m already going slightly outside my comfort zone but I’d love to fix this myself if it’s safe to do so. Any ideas what the issue might be?
Weird thing I noticed: Only one socket in the old outlet was live. The hot / neutral wires for the other socket were wired together for some reason. No idea why. I wired the new outlet to match the old one.
An outlet in a seldom-used guest room is connected to a light switch and I have an overhead light plugged into it. I tried to turn on the light and it went on for a split second before turning off. Tried the light in a different outlet and it works just fine. Bought a replacement outlet and installed it today but that did not fix the problem.
I know next to nothing about electrical work and I’m already going slightly outside my comfort zone but I’d love to fix this myself if it’s safe to do so. Any ideas what the issue might be?
Weird thing I noticed: Only one socket in the old outlet was live. The hot / neutral wires for the other socket were wired together for some reason. No idea why. I wired the new outlet to match the old one.
Best answer: When you say it works for a moment, do you mean it works for a moment, then the breaker trips and it no longer works? Or do you mean if you turn it on, it works for a moment, then if you turn it off and on again, it again works for a moment (without you resetting the breaker)?
The hot / neutral wires for the other socket were wired together for some reason.
Do you mean pigtails (short lengths of wire attached to the outlet screws) were wired together and not connected to anything else? Or they were wired together and also wired to something else? Or some other situation entirely?
posted by ssg at 10:55 AM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
The hot / neutral wires for the other socket were wired together for some reason.
Do you mean pigtails (short lengths of wire attached to the outlet screws) were wired together and not connected to anything else? Or they were wired together and also wired to something else? Or some other situation entirely?
posted by ssg at 10:55 AM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: If I turn the light switch off and on it again works for a moment. The breaker does not trip.
Do you mean pigtails (short lengths of wire attached to the outlet screws) were wired together and not connected to anything else?
Yep, that.
posted by Diskeater at 11:00 AM on August 19, 2022
Do you mean pigtails (short lengths of wire attached to the outlet screws) were wired together and not connected to anything else?
Yep, that.
posted by Diskeater at 11:00 AM on August 19, 2022
I'm going to be the person that says when it comes to electricity, get a professional in. I'm happy to try to fix most things, but getting this wrong could kill you and/or set fire to your house.
Source: my grandfather taught electrical engineering in a university for 40 years
posted by underclocked at 11:03 AM on August 19, 2022 [8 favorites]
Source: my grandfather taught electrical engineering in a university for 40 years
posted by underclocked at 11:03 AM on August 19, 2022 [8 favorites]
Best answer: That sounds like a poor connection at some point in the wiring leading up to the outlet.
Are there other outlets on the same circuit? Do all of those work normally?
In the US, the supposing you have three regular 110V outlets on a single circuit (i.e., controlled by a single breaker), the wiring goes like: utility -> breaker panel -> A -> B -> C. They're daisy-chained together (not all individually wired straight back to the breaker panel).
If C is the outlet that isn't working, but A and B work fine, then I would suspect the junction at B with the wiring headed for C.
If your house was wired by a real buckaroo, it could also be a junction (or damaged wiring) in the walls between B and C.
But yeah, if you don't feel confident about it, hire a pro.
posted by sourcequench at 11:07 AM on August 19, 2022
Are there other outlets on the same circuit? Do all of those work normally?
In the US, the supposing you have three regular 110V outlets on a single circuit (i.e., controlled by a single breaker), the wiring goes like: utility -> breaker panel -> A -> B -> C. They're daisy-chained together (not all individually wired straight back to the breaker panel).
If C is the outlet that isn't working, but A and B work fine, then I would suspect the junction at B with the wiring headed for C.
If your house was wired by a real buckaroo, it could also be a junction (or damaged wiring) in the walls between B and C.
But yeah, if you don't feel confident about it, hire a pro.
posted by sourcequench at 11:07 AM on August 19, 2022
Best answer: It's possible the switch is bad. They are very cheap. It's worth trying.
posted by H21 at 11:12 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by H21 at 11:12 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Are there other outlets on the same circuit? Do all of those work normally?
Yes and yes.
posted by Diskeater at 11:12 AM on August 19, 2022
Yes and yes.
posted by Diskeater at 11:12 AM on August 19, 2022
Best answer: Do you have a electrical voltage tester? They aren't expensive, you need to get one. Then you could diagnose the problem you are seeing at the wiring. Touching the black wire and a ground, you should see 120 volts. Touching white and ground, 0 volts.
It definitely sounds like it was wired upside down, which I think in old outlets would make only 1 side work. It's been a while though.
You should wire your new one according to the diagram on your new outlet's box.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:21 AM on August 19, 2022
It definitely sounds like it was wired upside down, which I think in old outlets would make only 1 side work. It's been a while though.
You should wire your new one according to the diagram on your new outlet's box.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:21 AM on August 19, 2022
Best answer: Definitely hire an electrician for this.
It is probably the switch that has gone bad. It could be further complicated if it is on a three-way switch.
On the old outlet, the tabs between the two outlets had probably been removed, with the intent that the switch could be controlling just the outlet for the overhead light, and the other outlet could be powered independently. That would explain why a dead short across the terminals didn't trip your breaker at least.
It is not uncommon for three way switches or branch switches to use colors in what might seem non-standard ways. There may be code that says you have to paint, mark or tape colors when you use cable in this manner, but I've rarely seen it in the houses I've lived in.
posted by tomierna at 11:27 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
It is probably the switch that has gone bad. It could be further complicated if it is on a three-way switch.
On the old outlet, the tabs between the two outlets had probably been removed, with the intent that the switch could be controlling just the outlet for the overhead light, and the other outlet could be powered independently. That would explain why a dead short across the terminals didn't trip your breaker at least.
It is not uncommon for three way switches or branch switches to use colors in what might seem non-standard ways. There may be code that says you have to paint, mark or tape colors when you use cable in this manner, but I've rarely seen it in the houses I've lived in.
posted by tomierna at 11:27 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Regarding the second outlet, it sounds like you have a split outlet (one switched, one not) and someone just disconnected the unswitched outlet at some point in the past and attached the two pigtails together rather than removing them. Did you break off the tabs on the new outlet to split it?
Assuming you did, you can wire the second outlet in to the unswitched hot wire that should also be in the box and the neutral. If you didn't, your breaker should be tripping!
Agree with others that the first thing to try for the light is to replace the switch itself.
posted by ssg at 11:44 AM on August 19, 2022
Assuming you did, you can wire the second outlet in to the unswitched hot wire that should also be in the box and the neutral. If you didn't, your breaker should be tripping!
Agree with others that the first thing to try for the light is to replace the switch itself.
posted by ssg at 11:44 AM on August 19, 2022
It is probably the switch that has gone bad.
Or one of the outlets in the circuit. We had a recent problem where the juice was fading in one outlet but the breaker wasn't tripping. Electrician replaced all the outlets on that circuit and now the breaker trips when we overload it, and we can then reset it.
posted by Rash at 1:58 PM on August 19, 2022
Or one of the outlets in the circuit. We had a recent problem where the juice was fading in one outlet but the breaker wasn't tripping. Electrician replaced all the outlets on that circuit and now the breaker trips when we overload it, and we can then reset it.
posted by Rash at 1:58 PM on August 19, 2022
Best answer: If the switch has just two terminals [shut off the breaker powering the circuit in question first!] remove the two wires going to the switch, connect them together, turn the power back on and see if the outlet stays live all the time. If so, 100% bad switch. I would also try a different lamp- I know you tried the lamp in a different outlet, but if the lamp has (say) a flaky plug, just moving it/flexing the cord could make it appear to be be OK and confuse your troubleshooting logic. My money is on the switch, though.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 3:06 PM on August 19, 2022
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 3:06 PM on August 19, 2022
Best answer: If you still have the old outlet, you can see if the little jumper tabs in the old outlet are present or not. As others have noted, if there really are two additional wires which are attached directly to the outlet and are twisted together, that's creating a dead short. You would want to remove those two wires. Why not upload some pictures so we can be sure we're not all talking at cross purposes?
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 3:22 PM on August 19, 2022
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 3:22 PM on August 19, 2022
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone for giving me an education. It has all been extremely helpful.
I left the tabs on the new outlet because, frankly, I didn't know any better but it does look like the tabs are intact on the old outlet.
Here's a gallery with the new plug and the hot / neutral wires together (uncapped), the old plug, the light switch, and a bonus pic of my assistant.
posted by Diskeater at 4:23 PM on August 19, 2022
I left the tabs on the new outlet because, frankly, I didn't know any better but it does look like the tabs are intact on the old outlet.
Here's a gallery with the new plug and the hot / neutral wires together (uncapped), the old plug, the light switch, and a bonus pic of my assistant.
posted by Diskeater at 4:23 PM on August 19, 2022
Best answer: I would replace the switch. Those push in type terminals are notoriously flaky.
Also, you should inspect the connections on all the other switches in the room. You might have a loose connection in the daisy chain.
posted by H21 at 4:53 PM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also, you should inspect the connections on all the other switches in the room. You might have a loose connection in the daisy chain.
posted by H21 at 4:53 PM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The "hot and neutral wires together" looks like just a passthrough. Technically, the white wire should be recolored or tagged, but the electrons inside don't care what color the insulation of the wires are. Was there just a wire nut (or "Marette" for you Canadians) on that junction? I think everyone thought that the wires were connected to the terminals on the outlet and joined together, which would create a short. Try bypassing the switch as I suggested upthread and see what happens.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 5:17 PM on August 19, 2022
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 5:17 PM on August 19, 2022
Oh, and when I say connect the two wires of the switch together for a test, that does not include the uninsulated ground wire. Just leave that alone/ disconnected.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 5:19 PM on August 19, 2022
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 5:19 PM on August 19, 2022
Best answer: I left the tabs on the new outlet because, frankly, I didn't know any better but it does look like the tabs are intact on the old outlet.
Your picture is worth a thousand words here. The outlet seems fine, as long as both work. You don't need to break the tabs, both outlets are switched. The wires should be marked here so it doesn't look like live and neutral are connected, but this is not the not likely the cause of your problem. Focus on the switch first.
posted by ssg at 5:34 PM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Your picture is worth a thousand words here. The outlet seems fine, as long as both work. You don't need to break the tabs, both outlets are switched. The wires should be marked here so it doesn't look like live and neutral are connected, but this is not the not likely the cause of your problem. Focus on the switch first.
posted by ssg at 5:34 PM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It looks like the "hot and neutral twisted together" is actually a "switch leg", which I will attempt to explain:
At the outlet, you have hot (black) and neutral (white), with neutral connected to the outlet, and hot twisted together with a white wire. The white wire is part of a pair that runs to the switch, so we have hot -> white wire to switch -> black wire from switch -> hot connection on outlet. The switch just breaks the hot lead via a long loop of wire.
It is initially confounding and frightening to see what look like hot and neutral tied together, but that is just how a switch is connected in this instance. I learned this being baffled by a ceiling fan once.
But to address your main problem, I would 100% replace the switch as the next thing to try.
BUT, if you're unsure AT ALL, go ahead and hire a professional. Electricity is a spicy meatball that can kill you dead.
posted by TheCoug at 7:07 AM on August 21, 2022
At the outlet, you have hot (black) and neutral (white), with neutral connected to the outlet, and hot twisted together with a white wire. The white wire is part of a pair that runs to the switch, so we have hot -> white wire to switch -> black wire from switch -> hot connection on outlet. The switch just breaks the hot lead via a long loop of wire.
It is initially confounding and frightening to see what look like hot and neutral tied together, but that is just how a switch is connected in this instance. I learned this being baffled by a ceiling fan once.
But to address your main problem, I would 100% replace the switch as the next thing to try.
BUT, if you're unsure AT ALL, go ahead and hire a professional. Electricity is a spicy meatball that can kill you dead.
posted by TheCoug at 7:07 AM on August 21, 2022
Response by poster: Update: replaced the switch and...it worked! We'll see how it behaves when I have guests here. Thanks to everyone for their helpful responses.
posted by Diskeater at 2:26 PM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Diskeater at 2:26 PM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
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Unless, by “works for a second” do you mean that it works again if you flip the light switch off and back on again? That would be a totally different issue.
posted by mekily at 10:46 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]