Physical, romantic intimacy with an asexual partner in these times?
May 19, 2022 10:10 AM Subscribe
I (m38) have been with B (ftm34) for 16 years. We met in college, got married, grew up together. I've always wanted more sex than him. What does the future hold? Somehow increasing his interest in sex? Opening up the relationship? Divorce? Please advise me on (a) what i might be misunderstanding, (b) what might be a wise direction for the future, and (c) how you have responded when in a similar place.
Throwaway email - mefirelationshipquestion@gmail.com
ABOUT ME
I want to say up front that I tend to have put a lot of work into understanding my own psychology, development, and issues. I have perfectionist tendencies. I struggle with adhd (specifically that I have a hard time remembering past decisions or directions, and struggle to "problem solve" even in situations where I've been instructed in the past.) I tend to take responsibility for positive outcomes, even when I have no ability to affect the outcomes. I struggle with catastrophic / black and white thinking.
On the other hand, I am incredibly dedicated to my relationships. I love to go out of my way to help people who I care about. I am very nurturing. I am a profound optimist - I always expect that things are able to be improved. Finally, I am crazy flexible and willing to change my behavior, opinions, and situation if I am shown that it would be a good thing to do.
ABOUT US TOGETHER
B and I love each other deeply. We make each other laugh. We are excited to come home and see each other, and the day is shitty if we don't get enough time together. We love the same food, the same lifestyle. We have similar politics. We get along with each other's families. We finish each other's sentences. We go out of our ways to take care of each other.
That said, I have am anxious energy that always makes me afraid that if I don't fix XYZ in my life / the world, something bad will happen. Whereas B has anxious energy that if he gets too close to an issue, something bad will happen. I guess, I dive head first into problems and make things difficult, whereas he hides from problems and makes things difficult.
Over the past 15 years together, I've read books about relationships, listened to relationship podcasts, got therapy for years and years (with 2 sessions of couples therapy, to bad outcomes). I've posted many questions here on the green, and spoken with trusted friends and mentors about my relationship.
The combination of "taking responsibility even tho I don't have control" and "believing things need to improve or else something bad will happen" was helpful at times - like when he was struggling to begin medical transition, or struggling to start looking for a job. Other times it's been a very difficult kind of energy for him to be around.
So, about four or five years ago, I made a conscious effort to try to be less overbearing, to give him more space in conversation, more time to think, and the nurturing space he needed to grow. To a large degree this has been very helpful (I still struggle with this, though.)
B loves me very much. He's been growing up a ton, just like I have. Lately he's been giving me space to try to say what I'm thinking, without jumping to conclusions or interpreting my concerns as attacks against him. That said, and partially because of my ADHD, I don't feel like I understand what he's doing, what he's thinking, what he's going through, what he wants to do, what he's planning to do. When I try to ask him about it, it seems like he just.... doesn't. Does't worry about things, doesn't plan out the future, doesn't dream or imagine possibilities. He's happy now, and he seems to be fine with putting up with any issues and waiting for them to go away on their own.
ABOUT SEX
I really want to have sex. My whole adult life, I've masturbated just about every single day. When I see a woman in revealing clothes, it makes me want to have sex. When I am with a close friend, I think about what it would be like to lean over and kiss them. Lately I've been discovering even more fun things to do just with myself.
I really want to have sex - a few different ways.
I want my partner to see me and get horny. I want him to desire me in a sexual way, so that I can fulfill that need, and know that I fulfill that need.
I want to have fun, casual, relaxing sex. I jerk off every single day. I'd love to have that be a collaborative hobby, even if it's just a quick 10-minute thing without any real intimacy.
I want to explore the world of pleasure. There's so much bodies can do. I'm sick of buying capitalist products - our bodies are all different and all can be explored in different ways. (This is a desire - but I'm so anxious and shy and awkward, I don't think I'd actually find myself in a orgy or on a dance floor.)
I want to connect with friends in a deeper way - and I have seen the opportunities.
About 4 years ago, B and I were really close friends with a coworker of mine who moved out of state. Before she left, she and I got very emotionally intimate, a little kissing on her last night in town between the three of us. But then, she left, and I realized I had fallen completely in love with her, and was miserable for about... 2 years. B stuck with me that whole time, jealous, irritated, and disappointed.
Last fall, I made friends with a woman who told me we could be FWB if my partner was ok with it. She had been in a kink community in another city, and had a really solid head on her shoulders. B and I agreed that we wanted to rekindle our own sex life, before expanding to other people. But I got excited and moved too fast, kissed my friend, and hurt B's trust in me. Now the other woman is dating one of my other friends.
Another women I met last year invited me out for drinks a few times, told me about her open relationship, and called me charming. I ghosted her, because I was afraid of getting into another situation where I did something that hurt B.
B says he wants to want to have sex. He tends to shut down his emotions and feelings during stressful situations. First transitioning and rediscovering/recreating his gender persona. Then that piece of shit Donald Trump. Then covid. Then the war. Now all the current stuff. He never wants to have sex - but he wishes he wanted to.
B started transitioning shortly after our wedding, and medically transitioning about 5 years ago (ten years into our relationship). His transition is a big issue for me. I was shocked and upset when he came out to me a few years into our relationship, but I decided my love for him was greater than my fear of what it might mean. I still love him, I'm so proud that I am still with him. But I am almost totally a stereotypical straight man. Sure, I'm curious what it would be like to be with someone with a penis, but I never get aroused by the thought of them as a person, just by the thought of being desired by someone, and doing something taboo.
He doesn't seem to struggle with gender dysphoria any longer, and he's got a good therapist. However, he has told me a few times that he often considers himself asexual as well. He's told me that he might have autism spectrum issues, where he doesn't understand or connect with other people the way he thinks he's expected to.
In the past 15 years, he's not read a book about sex, he doesn't watch videos, listen to podcast interviews, ask for help from friends or strangers on the internet, ask for help from me, or really make any indication that it is something he wants to do. He says he wants to want to, and I believe that is true.
A friend labeled his behavior as "withholding" which I don't really understand. In every relationship, there are differences in libido. It is no one's fault that they react to life the way they do. I trust B and believe him that he wants to make me happy wants me to feel connected to him.
THE FUTURE....?
My therapist says that relationships are about compromise, and that as people age, we naturally start to mourn the dreams that never came true. She says that I can use CBT techniques to shape my internal monologue to achieve the feelings towards B that I want to have.
I could see us staying together for the rest of our lives, with me tamping down my libido, jerking off all the time, and never having sex again. Each month that goes past, I would forget how long it's been. (Because ADHD, I can't remember the last time we had sex - I think it's been as recent as 3 or 4 months ago? I'm terrible at remembering things.) I would continue to put a priority on his wellbeing, sense of security, and and mental health, deciding that sacrifices can be made, and celebrating that at least I fucked him a bunch when we were younger.
I could see us splitting up over this. We own a house together. Neither of us earns as much money as we anticipated we would, and splitting up would be very difficult. We are incredibly close and emotionally connected with each other. Honestly.... I don't think I could see splitting up over this. We are planning to move to a city on the east coast in the next few years, to live near his sister and help with childcare.
I could see us coming back together. Maybe there is a book, or a therapist, or a guide, or SOMETHING that I could initiate that would get the motor of sexuality running again. We would have to overcome so many barriers - not just being horny, but also figuring out how to pleasure each other, how to be patient with each other, how to be patient with ourselves, how to enhance pleasure, etc. I feel my own performance is full of love and intention, but in practice I bring a lot of fear of failure, fear of injuring my partner, fear of making a mess, and other performance fear into the bedroom. I could see us growing through that - but I think it would be *work*, like taking dance lessons before you can really feel good about dancing. (I am terrified of dancing too)
And I could see us having a more open relationship. But I'm terrified that I would get like a kid on xmas morning, being constantly glued to apps and texts and getting all riled up, disappointed, hurt, infatuated, etc., with STI scares, pregnancy scares, accusations of being a creepy sexual predator, etc. My two greatest fears (as with everything) are that I would like it too much, and it would ruin my relationship. Or I might be totally unsuccessful, and have this little thread of hope snipped, and face life as an unlovable, undesirable creep.
Throwaway email - mefirelationshipquestion@gmail.com
ABOUT ME
I want to say up front that I tend to have put a lot of work into understanding my own psychology, development, and issues. I have perfectionist tendencies. I struggle with adhd (specifically that I have a hard time remembering past decisions or directions, and struggle to "problem solve" even in situations where I've been instructed in the past.) I tend to take responsibility for positive outcomes, even when I have no ability to affect the outcomes. I struggle with catastrophic / black and white thinking.
On the other hand, I am incredibly dedicated to my relationships. I love to go out of my way to help people who I care about. I am very nurturing. I am a profound optimist - I always expect that things are able to be improved. Finally, I am crazy flexible and willing to change my behavior, opinions, and situation if I am shown that it would be a good thing to do.
ABOUT US TOGETHER
B and I love each other deeply. We make each other laugh. We are excited to come home and see each other, and the day is shitty if we don't get enough time together. We love the same food, the same lifestyle. We have similar politics. We get along with each other's families. We finish each other's sentences. We go out of our ways to take care of each other.
That said, I have am anxious energy that always makes me afraid that if I don't fix XYZ in my life / the world, something bad will happen. Whereas B has anxious energy that if he gets too close to an issue, something bad will happen. I guess, I dive head first into problems and make things difficult, whereas he hides from problems and makes things difficult.
Over the past 15 years together, I've read books about relationships, listened to relationship podcasts, got therapy for years and years (with 2 sessions of couples therapy, to bad outcomes). I've posted many questions here on the green, and spoken with trusted friends and mentors about my relationship.
The combination of "taking responsibility even tho I don't have control" and "believing things need to improve or else something bad will happen" was helpful at times - like when he was struggling to begin medical transition, or struggling to start looking for a job. Other times it's been a very difficult kind of energy for him to be around.
So, about four or five years ago, I made a conscious effort to try to be less overbearing, to give him more space in conversation, more time to think, and the nurturing space he needed to grow. To a large degree this has been very helpful (I still struggle with this, though.)
B loves me very much. He's been growing up a ton, just like I have. Lately he's been giving me space to try to say what I'm thinking, without jumping to conclusions or interpreting my concerns as attacks against him. That said, and partially because of my ADHD, I don't feel like I understand what he's doing, what he's thinking, what he's going through, what he wants to do, what he's planning to do. When I try to ask him about it, it seems like he just.... doesn't. Does't worry about things, doesn't plan out the future, doesn't dream or imagine possibilities. He's happy now, and he seems to be fine with putting up with any issues and waiting for them to go away on their own.
ABOUT SEX
I really want to have sex. My whole adult life, I've masturbated just about every single day. When I see a woman in revealing clothes, it makes me want to have sex. When I am with a close friend, I think about what it would be like to lean over and kiss them. Lately I've been discovering even more fun things to do just with myself.
I really want to have sex - a few different ways.
I want my partner to see me and get horny. I want him to desire me in a sexual way, so that I can fulfill that need, and know that I fulfill that need.
I want to have fun, casual, relaxing sex. I jerk off every single day. I'd love to have that be a collaborative hobby, even if it's just a quick 10-minute thing without any real intimacy.
I want to explore the world of pleasure. There's so much bodies can do. I'm sick of buying capitalist products - our bodies are all different and all can be explored in different ways. (This is a desire - but I'm so anxious and shy and awkward, I don't think I'd actually find myself in a orgy or on a dance floor.)
I want to connect with friends in a deeper way - and I have seen the opportunities.
About 4 years ago, B and I were really close friends with a coworker of mine who moved out of state. Before she left, she and I got very emotionally intimate, a little kissing on her last night in town between the three of us. But then, she left, and I realized I had fallen completely in love with her, and was miserable for about... 2 years. B stuck with me that whole time, jealous, irritated, and disappointed.
Last fall, I made friends with a woman who told me we could be FWB if my partner was ok with it. She had been in a kink community in another city, and had a really solid head on her shoulders. B and I agreed that we wanted to rekindle our own sex life, before expanding to other people. But I got excited and moved too fast, kissed my friend, and hurt B's trust in me. Now the other woman is dating one of my other friends.
Another women I met last year invited me out for drinks a few times, told me about her open relationship, and called me charming. I ghosted her, because I was afraid of getting into another situation where I did something that hurt B.
B says he wants to want to have sex. He tends to shut down his emotions and feelings during stressful situations. First transitioning and rediscovering/recreating his gender persona. Then that piece of shit Donald Trump. Then covid. Then the war. Now all the current stuff. He never wants to have sex - but he wishes he wanted to.
B started transitioning shortly after our wedding, and medically transitioning about 5 years ago (ten years into our relationship). His transition is a big issue for me. I was shocked and upset when he came out to me a few years into our relationship, but I decided my love for him was greater than my fear of what it might mean. I still love him, I'm so proud that I am still with him. But I am almost totally a stereotypical straight man. Sure, I'm curious what it would be like to be with someone with a penis, but I never get aroused by the thought of them as a person, just by the thought of being desired by someone, and doing something taboo.
He doesn't seem to struggle with gender dysphoria any longer, and he's got a good therapist. However, he has told me a few times that he often considers himself asexual as well. He's told me that he might have autism spectrum issues, where he doesn't understand or connect with other people the way he thinks he's expected to.
In the past 15 years, he's not read a book about sex, he doesn't watch videos, listen to podcast interviews, ask for help from friends or strangers on the internet, ask for help from me, or really make any indication that it is something he wants to do. He says he wants to want to, and I believe that is true.
A friend labeled his behavior as "withholding" which I don't really understand. In every relationship, there are differences in libido. It is no one's fault that they react to life the way they do. I trust B and believe him that he wants to make me happy wants me to feel connected to him.
THE FUTURE....?
My therapist says that relationships are about compromise, and that as people age, we naturally start to mourn the dreams that never came true. She says that I can use CBT techniques to shape my internal monologue to achieve the feelings towards B that I want to have.
I could see us staying together for the rest of our lives, with me tamping down my libido, jerking off all the time, and never having sex again. Each month that goes past, I would forget how long it's been. (Because ADHD, I can't remember the last time we had sex - I think it's been as recent as 3 or 4 months ago? I'm terrible at remembering things.) I would continue to put a priority on his wellbeing, sense of security, and and mental health, deciding that sacrifices can be made, and celebrating that at least I fucked him a bunch when we were younger.
I could see us splitting up over this. We own a house together. Neither of us earns as much money as we anticipated we would, and splitting up would be very difficult. We are incredibly close and emotionally connected with each other. Honestly.... I don't think I could see splitting up over this. We are planning to move to a city on the east coast in the next few years, to live near his sister and help with childcare.
I could see us coming back together. Maybe there is a book, or a therapist, or a guide, or SOMETHING that I could initiate that would get the motor of sexuality running again. We would have to overcome so many barriers - not just being horny, but also figuring out how to pleasure each other, how to be patient with each other, how to be patient with ourselves, how to enhance pleasure, etc. I feel my own performance is full of love and intention, but in practice I bring a lot of fear of failure, fear of injuring my partner, fear of making a mess, and other performance fear into the bedroom. I could see us growing through that - but I think it would be *work*, like taking dance lessons before you can really feel good about dancing. (I am terrified of dancing too)
And I could see us having a more open relationship. But I'm terrified that I would get like a kid on xmas morning, being constantly glued to apps and texts and getting all riled up, disappointed, hurt, infatuated, etc., with STI scares, pregnancy scares, accusations of being a creepy sexual predator, etc. My two greatest fears (as with everything) are that I would like it too much, and it would ruin my relationship. Or I might be totally unsuccessful, and have this little thread of hope snipped, and face life as an unlovable, undesirable creep.
However, he has told me a few times that he often considers himself asexual as well. He's told me that he might have autism spectrum issues, where he doesn't understand or connect with other people the way he thinks he's expected to.
He's told you who he is. He's told you that he has difficulty with this and this is how he lives in the world. I see a lot of love in your description of him and your relationship, but I don't think you've really listened to him about this. I get the feeling part of you still thinks you can "fix" or convince him to change over this issue, but you need to realise that this might never change.
I am almost totally a stereotypical straight man.
As a trans man, I was reading your question waiting for this. I note all of your descriptions of other possible relationships and desires are with (presumably cis) women.
There's nothing wrong with the fact that you don't desire him as a man. This is a normal and very difficult outcome when trans people go through medical transition. You seem to still respect him as a person and you see him as a man, which is great in some ways, but troublesome in others, because now you're in a gay relationship that you didn't expect to be in.
I'm afraid I can't see any way out of this that won't harm one or both of you, emotionally and psychologically. He isn't interested in sex as a form of casual intimacy. If you pressure him on this point, you risk alienating him and hurting him. However, if you stop trying, you will be miserable. If you open up the relationship and he has to watch you seeking out cis women and getting excited about being able to have sex with them, while he waits at home for you to come back -- I think you can see how hurtful that might be to him, even if he says he's okay with it because he loves you.
On preview, I agree with cakelite. Continuing like this is only going to make it worse. You both need to accept that you might be able to stay good friends, but you need to break off from your romantic relationship. You are separate people, growing separately. You can love and celebrate him as a close friend, but the last few years have set you on different paths in terms of intimacy. He deserves to find someone who loves and accepts him as an asexual man. You deserve to find someone who loves you in the way you want as well.
It's going to be really, really hard. But you'll look back on it and be grateful that you made the hard choice.
posted by fight or flight at 10:48 AM on May 19, 2022 [21 favorites]
He's told you who he is. He's told you that he has difficulty with this and this is how he lives in the world. I see a lot of love in your description of him and your relationship, but I don't think you've really listened to him about this. I get the feeling part of you still thinks you can "fix" or convince him to change over this issue, but you need to realise that this might never change.
I am almost totally a stereotypical straight man.
As a trans man, I was reading your question waiting for this. I note all of your descriptions of other possible relationships and desires are with (presumably cis) women.
There's nothing wrong with the fact that you don't desire him as a man. This is a normal and very difficult outcome when trans people go through medical transition. You seem to still respect him as a person and you see him as a man, which is great in some ways, but troublesome in others, because now you're in a gay relationship that you didn't expect to be in.
I'm afraid I can't see any way out of this that won't harm one or both of you, emotionally and psychologically. He isn't interested in sex as a form of casual intimacy. If you pressure him on this point, you risk alienating him and hurting him. However, if you stop trying, you will be miserable. If you open up the relationship and he has to watch you seeking out cis women and getting excited about being able to have sex with them, while he waits at home for you to come back -- I think you can see how hurtful that might be to him, even if he says he's okay with it because he loves you.
On preview, I agree with cakelite. Continuing like this is only going to make it worse. You both need to accept that you might be able to stay good friends, but you need to break off from your romantic relationship. You are separate people, growing separately. You can love and celebrate him as a close friend, but the last few years have set you on different paths in terms of intimacy. He deserves to find someone who loves and accepts him as an asexual man. You deserve to find someone who loves you in the way you want as well.
It's going to be really, really hard. But you'll look back on it and be grateful that you made the hard choice.
posted by fight or flight at 10:48 AM on May 19, 2022 [21 favorites]
Also, I will add: you say that he no longer struggles with gender dysphoria, but dysphoria is not always something that's easy for trans people to articulate, especially to people who love us. It's incredibly difficult to tell someone that they're hurting you because of something they can't help.
I note that from the timeline you've outlined here, you attempted to cheat on him with a woman a year after he began transitioning (which you have clearly struggled with). You attempted to cheat on him again shortly afterwards, again with a woman. He trusted you and you broke his trust twice. You're out there flirting with women and kissing women, while he is fully aware that you have problems with his medical transition. Consider how that appears from his POV: you, the straight man he married, are showing him, over and over, that you would rather be with a woman than be with him. No wonder he's having difficulty.
You noted in your description that he shuts down when stressed. I wouldn't be surprised if he's potentially shut down his need for intimacy (not just sexual) because he's terrified that you'll reject him or be disgusted by his body. This is pretty common -- in the "dead bedrooms" community, partners often talk about struggling so much with conflicting libidos that they develop a kind of trauma response to being with their partner. If he is asexual, this is an additional pressure. He may be trying so hard to pretend to be something that he's not that he's unable to be.. anything. And that's even before you get to the stress of the pandemic, politics, and being trans and queer in 2022.
For his sake, you really need to let him go, with love.
posted by fight or flight at 10:59 AM on May 19, 2022 [10 favorites]
I note that from the timeline you've outlined here, you attempted to cheat on him with a woman a year after he began transitioning (which you have clearly struggled with). You attempted to cheat on him again shortly afterwards, again with a woman. He trusted you and you broke his trust twice. You're out there flirting with women and kissing women, while he is fully aware that you have problems with his medical transition. Consider how that appears from his POV: you, the straight man he married, are showing him, over and over, that you would rather be with a woman than be with him. No wonder he's having difficulty.
You noted in your description that he shuts down when stressed. I wouldn't be surprised if he's potentially shut down his need for intimacy (not just sexual) because he's terrified that you'll reject him or be disgusted by his body. This is pretty common -- in the "dead bedrooms" community, partners often talk about struggling so much with conflicting libidos that they develop a kind of trauma response to being with their partner. If he is asexual, this is an additional pressure. He may be trying so hard to pretend to be something that he's not that he's unable to be.. anything. And that's even before you get to the stress of the pandemic, politics, and being trans and queer in 2022.
For his sake, you really need to let him go, with love.
posted by fight or flight at 10:59 AM on May 19, 2022 [10 favorites]
I’d also flag that in the two situations where other people were involved, you weren’t respectful of the relationship you and your husband have. You can’t help how you feel about somebody, but you can help being so obviously moony about a person you were close with at work and got physical with once that your partner is having to deal with it for TWO YEARS. And you certainly can help kissing people when your relationship hasn’t actually opened up yet.
I agree that y’all aren’t sexual partners anymore, but you don’t have to get divorced. A marriage between an ace trans dude and a straight cis guy probably isn’t going to have much or any sex in it, but it can have lots of other things. That is, if y’all can get on the same page about everyone’s needs and desires.
posted by hollyholly at 11:00 AM on May 19, 2022 [14 favorites]
I agree that y’all aren’t sexual partners anymore, but you don’t have to get divorced. A marriage between an ace trans dude and a straight cis guy probably isn’t going to have much or any sex in it, but it can have lots of other things. That is, if y’all can get on the same page about everyone’s needs and desires.
posted by hollyholly at 11:00 AM on May 19, 2022 [14 favorites]
I left my husband for many reasons, and the fact that he did not want to have sex was at the top of the list. There were a bunch of other reasons as well but sex was super important to me and I wanted to be with people who were excited about having sex with me. I had never heard of ace people at the time and I did not treat him well. I was angry and hurt that he did not desire me.
Since then I have had tons of fun sex with various people and also had primary partners for various chunks of time. I never actually got around to divorcing my partner and these days we have a companionable relationship. We live in different cities but we see each other frequently. We are each other’s best buddies. Dan Savage talks a lot about doing what you need to do in order to preserve relationships. But I wonder if your husband will ever get to be his true self with you around. I certainly couldn’t have become more of my true self while continuing to live with my husband. I had a lot of anger and resentment at the idea that because my husband wasn’t into sex, I was supposed to skip it as well. I thought that was bullshit, and I wasn’t willing to maintain the status quo.
Life is weird; it’s hard to know how things will turn out. I wish I had been kinder to my husband before I left. I wish I had not taken his lack of sexual desire personally. It wasn’t personal, at least in our case. In the decades since we live together, he never dated another individual. It just wasn’t his thing. It is possible to have a companionable relationship and to live together while you have sex with women. But it’s only possible if your husband is on board and not just to be kind to you.
It’s totally possible that your husband would also like to be desired sexually and it sounds like that is not really a possibility. But that’s only a guess. Consider looking for a sex–positive therapist who can help you think about these issues as an individual and who can help guide your future conversations with your husband about this very fraught topic.
I don’t know what you should do, this is super challenging stuff. I do wish you and your partner all the best in getting your needs met and an understanding that partners, in general, cannot meet all of our needs. We often must turn to other people to have some of those needs met. Or as my very first kinky bdsm master told me one weekend, as I attempted to chat with him about something, “don’t talk to me about that stuff. Save it for your girlfriends.”
posted by Bella Donna at 11:24 AM on May 19, 2022 [10 favorites]
Since then I have had tons of fun sex with various people and also had primary partners for various chunks of time. I never actually got around to divorcing my partner and these days we have a companionable relationship. We live in different cities but we see each other frequently. We are each other’s best buddies. Dan Savage talks a lot about doing what you need to do in order to preserve relationships. But I wonder if your husband will ever get to be his true self with you around. I certainly couldn’t have become more of my true self while continuing to live with my husband. I had a lot of anger and resentment at the idea that because my husband wasn’t into sex, I was supposed to skip it as well. I thought that was bullshit, and I wasn’t willing to maintain the status quo.
Life is weird; it’s hard to know how things will turn out. I wish I had been kinder to my husband before I left. I wish I had not taken his lack of sexual desire personally. It wasn’t personal, at least in our case. In the decades since we live together, he never dated another individual. It just wasn’t his thing. It is possible to have a companionable relationship and to live together while you have sex with women. But it’s only possible if your husband is on board and not just to be kind to you.
It’s totally possible that your husband would also like to be desired sexually and it sounds like that is not really a possibility. But that’s only a guess. Consider looking for a sex–positive therapist who can help you think about these issues as an individual and who can help guide your future conversations with your husband about this very fraught topic.
I don’t know what you should do, this is super challenging stuff. I do wish you and your partner all the best in getting your needs met and an understanding that partners, in general, cannot meet all of our needs. We often must turn to other people to have some of those needs met. Or as my very first kinky bdsm master told me one weekend, as I attempted to chat with him about something, “don’t talk to me about that stuff. Save it for your girlfriends.”
posted by Bella Donna at 11:24 AM on May 19, 2022 [10 favorites]
I think there are so, so many super complex things that I see going on here.
First, and I say this very gently: the dynamic you are describing, and the way that you are describing it, really matches a particular way that certain cis men often talk about sexual dysfunction in their marriages, which is not accurate. You appear to be coming from a very binary (and potentially incorrect) place, where you assume that because you want to have sex all the time, that the fact you are not having sex is your partner's fault. But actually, your partner appears to be discussing a very different and very normal kind of desire: he says that he tends to shut down his emotions and feelings during stressful situations. This is super normal! It is very common that people's stress affects their sex drive; while for some, more stress means they want to have more sex to 'blow off steam'; for others, it's difficult to be sexually attracted while also being stressed.
You don't seem to recognize that you are likely creating some of the stress that is making your partner feel less interested in sex. You say that you want to work on your sex life together, but I wonder how much of it is working on creating the conditions for sex, which for someone like your partner is a low-stress environment. You say that you've read a lot of books about sex, but this is one of the basics and probably the first thing that a sex therapist would recommend. What stressors is your partner facing, and how can you alleviate them? You say you want to get "the motor of sexuality running", but in the past few years you've broken your partner's trust twice. How are they expected to desire you? Desire is, for many people, fundamentally about trust and safety. You can't create an environment that makes that safety and trust while constantly looking for opportunities to "Get yours".
And one of the things that affects safety and trust is how you respond to your partner's gender.
You appear to be having some really complex reactions around it. You support his gender, you support his transition, but also, there are some ways in which it appears to be a problem for you. For example, you say you're married, but refer to him only as "my partner" rather than "my husband" - and I wonder how much this is tied to your identity not just as a straight man but as a "stereotypical" straight man, whose own relationship to gender and masculinity seems very tied to sex - and specifically, sex with women. You mention things like always wanting to kiss close friends, and wanting to have sex as soon as you see a women in revealing clothes - this degree of sexual intensity is actually somewhat of an outlier for a cis man your age, though it is normative in media presentations, and is normative as an performative expression of interest for a cis man focused on stereotypes who is approaching middle age. And also - it's very unfortunately normal as an expression by someone who is placing a lot of expectations on sex to tell you who you are in the world - whether you are 'successful', or an "unlovable, undesirable creep", as you put it. I think it would be really helpful for your sex life if you were able to uncouple your own feelings about masculinity from your relationship.
Fundamentally, also, I think you need to make some decisions about how you feel sexually about your partner/husband as he is. You say that you see sex with someone with a penis as "taboo". I'm assuming, since you mentioned this specific detail, that this is relevant for your relationship. If so - do you think that perhaps your partner might feel uncomfortable about being desired only as a 'taboo' expression, or only as a reflection of his own desire? You also mention not being really sure how to pleasure your partner right now. Is this, potentially, related?
posted by corb at 11:58 AM on May 19, 2022 [13 favorites]
First, and I say this very gently: the dynamic you are describing, and the way that you are describing it, really matches a particular way that certain cis men often talk about sexual dysfunction in their marriages, which is not accurate. You appear to be coming from a very binary (and potentially incorrect) place, where you assume that because you want to have sex all the time, that the fact you are not having sex is your partner's fault. But actually, your partner appears to be discussing a very different and very normal kind of desire: he says that he tends to shut down his emotions and feelings during stressful situations. This is super normal! It is very common that people's stress affects their sex drive; while for some, more stress means they want to have more sex to 'blow off steam'; for others, it's difficult to be sexually attracted while also being stressed.
You don't seem to recognize that you are likely creating some of the stress that is making your partner feel less interested in sex. You say that you want to work on your sex life together, but I wonder how much of it is working on creating the conditions for sex, which for someone like your partner is a low-stress environment. You say that you've read a lot of books about sex, but this is one of the basics and probably the first thing that a sex therapist would recommend. What stressors is your partner facing, and how can you alleviate them? You say you want to get "the motor of sexuality running", but in the past few years you've broken your partner's trust twice. How are they expected to desire you? Desire is, for many people, fundamentally about trust and safety. You can't create an environment that makes that safety and trust while constantly looking for opportunities to "Get yours".
And one of the things that affects safety and trust is how you respond to your partner's gender.
You appear to be having some really complex reactions around it. You support his gender, you support his transition, but also, there are some ways in which it appears to be a problem for you. For example, you say you're married, but refer to him only as "my partner" rather than "my husband" - and I wonder how much this is tied to your identity not just as a straight man but as a "stereotypical" straight man, whose own relationship to gender and masculinity seems very tied to sex - and specifically, sex with women. You mention things like always wanting to kiss close friends, and wanting to have sex as soon as you see a women in revealing clothes - this degree of sexual intensity is actually somewhat of an outlier for a cis man your age, though it is normative in media presentations, and is normative as an performative expression of interest for a cis man focused on stereotypes who is approaching middle age. And also - it's very unfortunately normal as an expression by someone who is placing a lot of expectations on sex to tell you who you are in the world - whether you are 'successful', or an "unlovable, undesirable creep", as you put it. I think it would be really helpful for your sex life if you were able to uncouple your own feelings about masculinity from your relationship.
Fundamentally, also, I think you need to make some decisions about how you feel sexually about your partner/husband as he is. You say that you see sex with someone with a penis as "taboo". I'm assuming, since you mentioned this specific detail, that this is relevant for your relationship. If so - do you think that perhaps your partner might feel uncomfortable about being desired only as a 'taboo' expression, or only as a reflection of his own desire? You also mention not being really sure how to pleasure your partner right now. Is this, potentially, related?
posted by corb at 11:58 AM on May 19, 2022 [13 favorites]
I found it interesting that in your title you say "Physical, romantic intimacy" but what you mean is sex. Physical, romantic intimacy can be cuddling, or massages, or holding hands, or kissing, or sensation play, or vacations together, or long conversations, or cooking together and shared dinners. It doesn't have to involve genitalia or even nudity.
If that's what you were looking for, I think you could figure out a way to find a way to make it work for both of you. This could be a way to let your partner explore what's comfortable for him, what makes him feel good, but it only works if sex is off the table. It can't work if he comes to learn that every nice touch is a potential trap leading to something he doesn't want.
But it sounds like what you actually want it sex and to be physically desired by your partner, which is something different and might just mean that you've grown apart. Asexuality isn't something that can be fixed.
posted by platypus of the universe at 12:15 PM on May 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
If that's what you were looking for, I think you could figure out a way to find a way to make it work for both of you. This could be a way to let your partner explore what's comfortable for him, what makes him feel good, but it only works if sex is off the table. It can't work if he comes to learn that every nice touch is a potential trap leading to something he doesn't want.
But it sounds like what you actually want it sex and to be physically desired by your partner, which is something different and might just mean that you've grown apart. Asexuality isn't something that can be fixed.
posted by platypus of the universe at 12:15 PM on May 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
You want to be with a woman. That's fine, it doesn't make you a creep or a freak, any more than you'd be a creep or a freak for wanting to be with a man or somebody who's in between on the gender spectrum. Some people have more fluid gender attraction, you're just not one of those people.
You also have a high libido. That also doesn't make you a creep or a freak. Sadly humans weren't made with perfectly aligned amounts of sexual desire, so we have to deal with mismatches. That said, this is a REALLY big mismatch.
You already know you want to break up, or you wouldn't be asking here. I give you permission. Accept what you want and go for it, even if it's hard, even if you have to mourn. (This will also give your husband a chance to find someone who delights in him sexually.)
posted by kingdead at 12:17 PM on May 19, 2022 [23 favorites]
You also have a high libido. That also doesn't make you a creep or a freak. Sadly humans weren't made with perfectly aligned amounts of sexual desire, so we have to deal with mismatches. That said, this is a REALLY big mismatch.
You already know you want to break up, or you wouldn't be asking here. I give you permission. Accept what you want and go for it, even if it's hard, even if you have to mourn. (This will also give your husband a chance to find someone who delights in him sexually.)
posted by kingdead at 12:17 PM on May 19, 2022 [23 favorites]
Your decision to stay in a monogamous relationship with your asexual husband guarantees that both of you will be unhappy. (Since you have a high libido, your decision stay in this monogamous relationship - merely that decision all by itself, even if you never say a word and never express a need - creates pressure on your asexual husband to have sex with you. No fun.)
It is really that simple, OP.
The struggles you detailed in your long post are very real and extremely valid. Anyone in your shoes would be feeling all the tumultuous, unwieldy feelings you're having right now. Sorting out your emotional struggles is *far* from simple... but life is full of these painful contradictions: situations that bring up impossibly complicated feelings can offer you a simple, straightforward, obvious choice on a practical level. This sucks, OP. I'm sorry you have to go through this, and I'm glad you have a therapist to support you.
posted by MiraK at 1:02 PM on May 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
It is really that simple, OP.
The struggles you detailed in your long post are very real and extremely valid. Anyone in your shoes would be feeling all the tumultuous, unwieldy feelings you're having right now. Sorting out your emotional struggles is *far* from simple... but life is full of these painful contradictions: situations that bring up impossibly complicated feelings can offer you a simple, straightforward, obvious choice on a practical level. This sucks, OP. I'm sorry you have to go through this, and I'm glad you have a therapist to support you.
posted by MiraK at 1:02 PM on May 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
(Circling back in here to put in an addendum and slight correction to my first comment, for the sake of future readers of this question, particularly trans Mefites who may be worried about ending up in this situation: where I said that OP's reaction to his husband's transition is "normal" (as in the feelings occurring are, to some extent, normal) I want to stress that it is entirely possible to be in a presumed straight relationship pre-transition and to have that relationship endure the transition, with both partners feeling supported and happy. I don't want my answer to read as if it's a foregone conclusion that any cis man in a relationship with a trans man will not be able to deal with it.
I myself am in a relationship with a cis man that started as a straight relationship before I came out and began my medical transition. We are now in a queer relationship. Very little has changed between us. He accepts, loves and is attracted to me as a man. I know plenty of cis folks who have stayed with their trans partner through their transition and have adapted and deepened their relationships. I also know trans people who have split from their partner. I also know trans folks who have stayed with their partner, but aren't sexually involved. As with any relationship, there are lots of potential outcomes.
If you are a trans person reading this and feeling worried: you are not necessarily doomed. OP's situation is one possibility for some people, but it's not the only possibility.)
posted by fight or flight at 1:18 PM on May 19, 2022 [19 favorites]
I myself am in a relationship with a cis man that started as a straight relationship before I came out and began my medical transition. We are now in a queer relationship. Very little has changed between us. He accepts, loves and is attracted to me as a man. I know plenty of cis folks who have stayed with their trans partner through their transition and have adapted and deepened their relationships. I also know trans people who have split from their partner. I also know trans folks who have stayed with their partner, but aren't sexually involved. As with any relationship, there are lots of potential outcomes.
If you are a trans person reading this and feeling worried: you are not necessarily doomed. OP's situation is one possibility for some people, but it's not the only possibility.)
posted by fight or flight at 1:18 PM on May 19, 2022 [19 favorites]
B says he wants to want to have sex
you really got to consider the hard possibility that he is being absolutely truthful and the thing he is leaving out, from tact or from love, is that it isn't you he wants to want to have sex with at this point in his life. or maybe it is, but maybe it isn't you he will succeed in wanting to have sex with.
you seem to be looking at the history that the two of you have together as primarily something that you have had to rethink and reconceptualize. but maybe having sex with someone who he knows thought of him so differently in your early years together has also been a big issue for him, not only for you. maybe that issue is charged and difficult for him, at least as much as it is for you, without being eroticized the way it is for you.
or not! but these possibilities suggest themselves because they are absent from your speculations.
you really could stay roommates and best friends without being husbands, if you both want to be.
with STI scares, pregnancy scares, accusations of being a creepy sexual predator, etc.
well then, for fuck's sake get a vasectomy long before you open the marriage or break up, if you don't trust your own grownup ability to use condoms with perfect correctness and consistency in the throes of partner novelty and sexual euphoria. of all times and places, here and now is not the time or the place to endanger anybody new with the threat of pregnancy.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:45 PM on May 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
you really got to consider the hard possibility that he is being absolutely truthful and the thing he is leaving out, from tact or from love, is that it isn't you he wants to want to have sex with at this point in his life. or maybe it is, but maybe it isn't you he will succeed in wanting to have sex with.
you seem to be looking at the history that the two of you have together as primarily something that you have had to rethink and reconceptualize. but maybe having sex with someone who he knows thought of him so differently in your early years together has also been a big issue for him, not only for you. maybe that issue is charged and difficult for him, at least as much as it is for you, without being eroticized the way it is for you.
or not! but these possibilities suggest themselves because they are absent from your speculations.
you really could stay roommates and best friends without being husbands, if you both want to be.
with STI scares, pregnancy scares, accusations of being a creepy sexual predator, etc.
well then, for fuck's sake get a vasectomy long before you open the marriage or break up, if you don't trust your own grownup ability to use condoms with perfect correctness and consistency in the throes of partner novelty and sexual euphoria. of all times and places, here and now is not the time or the place to endanger anybody new with the threat of pregnancy.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:45 PM on May 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
Relationships involve compromises, yes. Lots of them. But there’s a difference between compromise and mutually assured misery. You want to have sex with women who want to have sex with you. Compromise might look like choosing monogamy with one woman who ticks all the boxes for you but doesn’t want an open or poly relationship, or choosing an open relationship with ground rules your primary partner prefers even if you’re otherwise inclined to be less restricted. But the compromise you’re living with is… intense. The upside is you each get to be married to someone you love deeply. The downsides are: 1) B experiences pressure (even if mostly from himself) to want sex with someone who wants sex with women, unease about his asexuality, and the tension of wanting to support his spouse in exploring his sexuality outside of the relationship while also seeming to be someone who is deeply uncomfortable with his spouse doing so. 2) You are trying to find peace in a marriage that doesn’t have room for your libido, with a male partner when you’re straight, and in which your experiments with non-monogamy have been painful for your partner in a way that seems unlikely to resolve. Do you and B really feel like you’ll be happier long-term in this marriage than you would as deeply connected, loving friends?
posted by theotherdurassister at 7:43 PM on May 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by theotherdurassister at 7:43 PM on May 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
You've done a lot of thinking and work on this, so I want to offer a platitiude. Sometimes it's as simple as if it ain't right, it ain't right.
The amount of thought and work you've put into this suggests that a change must come for you. This must have been occupying a huge amount of your mind for a very long time. WHen you change your scenario, in whatever way you choose, you will get a lot of that territory back and be able to direct it as you see fit.
The interesting thing is that your values are very open and accomodating. If you're open to a lot, I think you may find it a little bit difficult to choose between options. You're a pleaser by nature--it seems you're able to shrug with a smile when what you put what you want in the backseat to prioritize someone else's needs. You can lay out all the options for how to proceed but you can't choose amongst them. And there is the work for you. For you. This is not a question for consultation with your partner--you are facing a situation that is asking you, "What do you want?" Given all the facts, given what is in your realm of control and what is out of your hands, what do you want most from the options before you?
I'll politely suggest that it seems like you've reached the point where thw two of you have ended your marriage in practice, because marriage for you includes intimacy that isn't present in the way you want it to be. Staying married, in situations like these, doesn't achieve much in practical terms but it does allow everyone to keep control over something, to make the statement that we still care about one another. But, eventually, that will hold you back from whatever comes next. I mean it's different if you're staying married for tax or citizenship or insurance purposes, but otherwise I think it's fair to suggest that you may value exploring what you want outside this relationship that has been incredibly important for you but has changed along with the people in it.
You've got a good head on your shoulders, and it's a pleasure reasing all of this. Whatever you choose, it'll be the right choice.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:02 AM on May 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
The amount of thought and work you've put into this suggests that a change must come for you. This must have been occupying a huge amount of your mind for a very long time. WHen you change your scenario, in whatever way you choose, you will get a lot of that territory back and be able to direct it as you see fit.
The interesting thing is that your values are very open and accomodating. If you're open to a lot, I think you may find it a little bit difficult to choose between options. You're a pleaser by nature--it seems you're able to shrug with a smile when what you put what you want in the backseat to prioritize someone else's needs. You can lay out all the options for how to proceed but you can't choose amongst them. And there is the work for you. For you. This is not a question for consultation with your partner--you are facing a situation that is asking you, "What do you want?" Given all the facts, given what is in your realm of control and what is out of your hands, what do you want most from the options before you?
I'll politely suggest that it seems like you've reached the point where thw two of you have ended your marriage in practice, because marriage for you includes intimacy that isn't present in the way you want it to be. Staying married, in situations like these, doesn't achieve much in practical terms but it does allow everyone to keep control over something, to make the statement that we still care about one another. But, eventually, that will hold you back from whatever comes next. I mean it's different if you're staying married for tax or citizenship or insurance purposes, but otherwise I think it's fair to suggest that you may value exploring what you want outside this relationship that has been incredibly important for you but has changed along with the people in it.
You've got a good head on your shoulders, and it's a pleasure reasing all of this. Whatever you choose, it'll be the right choice.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:02 AM on May 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
It sounds like this relationship isn't working for either of you. It sounds like you aren't living your own truth because it may not include B the way you want. I think as a romantic partnership it needs to be over.
You sound desperate for something to change. You can't change B, you can't change your attraction (you can change therapists--CBT to be attracted to someone sounds really messed up), but you can change your part. It isn't in your capability to have a healthy open relationship with B because you are so desperate for the love you are missing, that you cannot get from this relationship. I find a lot of irreplaceable intimacy and love is shared during sex with my spouse, that's how it works for me, if that is part of how you function then it's better to accept that and find a new path than force your feet to walk this one. Being in a healthy open relationship requires a lot of self-awareness, self-control, and emotional maturity. I think you got stunted on these regards in your marriage which has been complex from the start, and it's time to grow, apart from B. Grow, not to fix this marriage, but just as you, and you alone. What that means for your marriage is up to you and B, but my knee jerk reaction is "why stay when you're so miserable".
posted by wellifyouinsist at 5:41 AM on May 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
You sound desperate for something to change. You can't change B, you can't change your attraction (you can change therapists--CBT to be attracted to someone sounds really messed up), but you can change your part. It isn't in your capability to have a healthy open relationship with B because you are so desperate for the love you are missing, that you cannot get from this relationship. I find a lot of irreplaceable intimacy and love is shared during sex with my spouse, that's how it works for me, if that is part of how you function then it's better to accept that and find a new path than force your feet to walk this one. Being in a healthy open relationship requires a lot of self-awareness, self-control, and emotional maturity. I think you got stunted on these regards in your marriage which has been complex from the start, and it's time to grow, apart from B. Grow, not to fix this marriage, but just as you, and you alone. What that means for your marriage is up to you and B, but my knee jerk reaction is "why stay when you're so miserable".
posted by wellifyouinsist at 5:41 AM on May 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
I second — and third and fourth!! — everything wellifyouinsist said — and said so beautifully at that!!!
posted by smorgasbord at 8:30 AM on May 20, 2022
posted by smorgasbord at 8:30 AM on May 20, 2022
I'm biased here, but I'm not sure I agree with all the folks saying it's definitely over for you. I think it could work if (and only if) you really want to put in the emotional work that is required to be successfully ethically non-monogamous. (And, yeah, you haven't gotten off to a great start on that, but it's a possibility.)
I say this as a polyamorous woman and as the wife of someone who became asexual during menopause. It took years of therapy for her to accept this idea and stop pushing herself to want to have sex with me. Once she came to terms with being ace, a huge weight was lifted off us both. We were always great partners and we still are. We give each other amazing love, support, and intimacy (but not the sexual kind). We just live well in the world together and I fully expect we always will. We've been together 20 years and haven't had sex in 6 years.
HOWEVER, this relationship would not have been able to continue for me if I didn't have another, very sexual, partner. My wife and I were polyamorous for our entire relationship and by the time her sex drive declined, I had another serious partner. My second partner and I love each other very much and have fabulous sex---but living together on a daily basis is hugely difficult for us (opposites attract?). Thus, both relationships give me something that I wouldn't want to be without. It works for me.
Sorry for writing a book here! I hope my story can help somehow. My advice would be to communicate, be open with each other, and try to look at all the options. What you have with your spouse is very valuable and not something that is easy to find.
posted by quiet wanderer at 6:28 PM on May 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
I say this as a polyamorous woman and as the wife of someone who became asexual during menopause. It took years of therapy for her to accept this idea and stop pushing herself to want to have sex with me. Once she came to terms with being ace, a huge weight was lifted off us both. We were always great partners and we still are. We give each other amazing love, support, and intimacy (but not the sexual kind). We just live well in the world together and I fully expect we always will. We've been together 20 years and haven't had sex in 6 years.
HOWEVER, this relationship would not have been able to continue for me if I didn't have another, very sexual, partner. My wife and I were polyamorous for our entire relationship and by the time her sex drive declined, I had another serious partner. My second partner and I love each other very much and have fabulous sex---but living together on a daily basis is hugely difficult for us (opposites attract?). Thus, both relationships give me something that I wouldn't want to be without. It works for me.
Sorry for writing a book here! I hope my story can help somehow. My advice would be to communicate, be open with each other, and try to look at all the options. What you have with your spouse is very valuable and not something that is easy to find.
posted by quiet wanderer at 6:28 PM on May 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, look, I can't speak for your partner, but being seen and desired as my actual gender is the bare minimum prerequisite for me to feel sexy or desirable. I'm a trans woman, and being with a gay man or a straight woman is a turnoff—however hot they are, however hot they find me, and however compatible our needs are in other ways—just because the things they find hot about me are things that squick me out. That was true before I transitioned, and it's stayed true after my transition, even as my dysphoria has reduced in other situations.
It's possible that this is nothing personal, but that being desired by a straight man is just not ever going to be what he wants, even if he's got a good relationship with his body.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:28 AM on May 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's possible that this is nothing personal, but that being desired by a straight man is just not ever going to be what he wants, even if he's got a good relationship with his body.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:28 AM on May 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by cakelite at 10:39 AM on May 19, 2022 [21 favorites]