How to ask roommate to leave?
May 5, 2022 3:17 PM Subscribe
We have a roommate in a finished basement with a separate entrance. My wife wants him to leave and I'm stressing out about it.
We moved into a house a couple weeks before the pandemic started, and a friend of mine moved into the finished basement. We needed help with the mortgage and then the pandemic happened, he stopped working, and here we are 2 years later.
I'm just going to list a bunch of details.
A couple issues have come up recently.
1. His house-guest overstayed his visit by 5 days, turned out to not have a home, and stole from us. Then roommate lied to me about it, and I kicked the houseguest out.
2. He reacted really immaturely when a mutual friend that had rejected him started dating another friend, to the point where she wouldn't spend time at our place, the most toxic teenage shit.
He is also the drummer in my band, helped build out the garage into a recording studio, so he would still be at our house at least 1 or 2 times a week. Roommate is not a close friend, we only know each other through the band.
He is in school and only works 2 days a week. My wife and I both work full-time office schedules in stressful environments. Wife and Roommate are 32, I'm 38.
We no longer need help with the mortgage.
My wife is also ready to not have a roommate any longer, for many normal reasons, mostly cleaning/dishes, but also we're just older and want our own place. It would be nice to have a guest bedroom, we want to use the basement for basement things, etc.
I'm not asking if its ethical to ask him to leave in a reasonable timeframe.
Its my own anxiety about putting him out. His rent is significantly lower and the space is bigger than anything he could afford in Seattle. There isn't a lease and in the chaos of the beginning of the pandemic we never formalized anything. He only pays the low rent, I cover bills/internet.
Any advice? I realize that I am an evil landlord, but I am trying not to be!
We moved into a house a couple weeks before the pandemic started, and a friend of mine moved into the finished basement. We needed help with the mortgage and then the pandemic happened, he stopped working, and here we are 2 years later.
I'm just going to list a bunch of details.
A couple issues have come up recently.
1. His house-guest overstayed his visit by 5 days, turned out to not have a home, and stole from us. Then roommate lied to me about it, and I kicked the houseguest out.
2. He reacted really immaturely when a mutual friend that had rejected him started dating another friend, to the point where she wouldn't spend time at our place, the most toxic teenage shit.
He is also the drummer in my band, helped build out the garage into a recording studio, so he would still be at our house at least 1 or 2 times a week. Roommate is not a close friend, we only know each other through the band.
He is in school and only works 2 days a week. My wife and I both work full-time office schedules in stressful environments. Wife and Roommate are 32, I'm 38.
We no longer need help with the mortgage.
My wife is also ready to not have a roommate any longer, for many normal reasons, mostly cleaning/dishes, but also we're just older and want our own place. It would be nice to have a guest bedroom, we want to use the basement for basement things, etc.
I'm not asking if its ethical to ask him to leave in a reasonable timeframe.
Its my own anxiety about putting him out. His rent is significantly lower and the space is bigger than anything he could afford in Seattle. There isn't a lease and in the chaos of the beginning of the pandemic we never formalized anything. He only pays the low rent, I cover bills/internet.
Any advice? I realize that I am an evil landlord, but I am trying not to be!
You are a landlord regardless of the presence of a lease. You need to speak with a lawyer, not the green.
In Portland for example, what you are describing is a 'no cause eviction' and he would legally be entitled to $2,900 for relocation assistance, from you, and give them 90 days notice. This can clearly vary widely by state and city. You may not be able to just give him notice to pack his shit and expect him to move.
He could easily sue you.
Whatever the cost of a lawyer, it will be money well spent.
posted by furnace.heart at 3:22 PM on May 5, 2022 [39 favorites]
In Portland for example, what you are describing is a 'no cause eviction' and he would legally be entitled to $2,900 for relocation assistance, from you, and give them 90 days notice. This can clearly vary widely by state and city. You may not be able to just give him notice to pack his shit and expect him to move.
He could easily sue you.
Whatever the cost of a lawyer, it will be money well spent.
posted by furnace.heart at 3:22 PM on May 5, 2022 [39 favorites]
Definitely speak with a lawyer. It could be especially complicated if the space he lives in isn't actually legal for you to rent.
posted by sevenless at 3:28 PM on May 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by sevenless at 3:28 PM on May 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
furnace.heart is correct. It doesn't matter that there is nothing in writing. He has lived in your basement and established residency. Your roommate is no longer your roomate, he is your tenant, and he has rights. You need to lawyer up to find out YOUR rights.
posted by Stuka at 3:28 PM on May 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Stuka at 3:28 PM on May 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
Best answer: This may or may not be appropriate for his temperament, but I gave my friends 3 months notice that I needed them out. They took me seriously and started looking immediately, and we agreed later that 3 months was the right amount of time to find a good place without having to panic about it.
If he’s likely to wait until the last minute that’s not helpful of course.
For me 3 months was right as it meant I got the space back without leaving them in a lurch.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:39 PM on May 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
If he’s likely to wait until the last minute that’s not helpful of course.
For me 3 months was right as it meant I got the space back without leaving them in a lurch.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:39 PM on May 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Agreed with above. Other benefits to lawyering up include:
- Roommate will feel like you are taking this and him seriously, less likely to mess around if he sees you are crossing all the t’s dotting the i’s
- Wife will feel like you are taking this and her seriously
- Lawyer will be able to point you to additional methods of conflict resolution like a mediator if things get hairy
- Important experience for all the other things you run into at this stage in life when suddenly lawyers are really really helpful
- Lawyer will be able to help you word yourself correctly for difficult conversations
I think you should talk to a lawyer and get an idea of what your rights are, what his rights are, and then bring to him all this information you’ve gathered so he is equally informed. It’s true that Seattle housing is a total clusterfuck, but since he’s a student and presumably not partnered he has more flexibility than some. It sounds like he and your wife don’t get along particularly, either, and if I shared a kitchen with someone who didn’t want me there I would be looking to move out, too.
posted by Mizu at 3:43 PM on May 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
- Roommate will feel like you are taking this and him seriously, less likely to mess around if he sees you are crossing all the t’s dotting the i’s
- Wife will feel like you are taking this and her seriously
- Lawyer will be able to point you to additional methods of conflict resolution like a mediator if things get hairy
- Important experience for all the other things you run into at this stage in life when suddenly lawyers are really really helpful
- Lawyer will be able to help you word yourself correctly for difficult conversations
I think you should talk to a lawyer and get an idea of what your rights are, what his rights are, and then bring to him all this information you’ve gathered so he is equally informed. It’s true that Seattle housing is a total clusterfuck, but since he’s a student and presumably not partnered he has more flexibility than some. It sounds like he and your wife don’t get along particularly, either, and if I shared a kitchen with someone who didn’t want me there I would be looking to move out, too.
posted by Mizu at 3:43 PM on May 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
Yeah, the problem with letting someone stay without a written agreement is that rights become assumed after a certain period of time - usually 30 days in most places, could be more or less where you exactly are so look it up and make sure you understand what the laws are.
The real-world answer to this is take him some cookies and say y'all need to talk. Explain your family doen't want a roommate anymore (as adults who want to live together alone, you don't need to make any additional excuses) and you also don't want to give him an abrupt dump, so what does he think is a reasonable plan and timeframe for finding somewhere else to live?
There's a very very good chance he knows this is coming after his misstep with the houseguest. He may grumble and be immature and bitch, but just keep an empathetic face and nod and yeah, moving sucks, but we need to figure something out. You surely realized we weren't adopting you and you'd have to move on eventually.
You want to have done your legal homework so that as soon as he starts with with OH WOE I am being thrown out on the street tonight OR the man, I dunno man, it could take a while you just go okay here's your written 90 day notice to prove that I'm not throwing you out and you also have a deadline. If you're not required to offer relocation assistance (it's not common), and you have the money, you could offer a bonus for getting out sooner than that. You can also offer a prorated refund on any rent he's paid if he moves mid-month, but I would put it in writing that you're not paying until the apartment is empty and the keys are in your hand.
I think 90 days is the nice thing to do even if it's more than the legal requirement. In California it's 60 days if they've been there AND PAYING RENT for more than a year.
Once you've had that conversation and you've served him with written notice, if he does not leave you will have to go through the eviction process.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:48 PM on May 5, 2022 [28 favorites]
The real-world answer to this is take him some cookies and say y'all need to talk. Explain your family doen't want a roommate anymore (as adults who want to live together alone, you don't need to make any additional excuses) and you also don't want to give him an abrupt dump, so what does he think is a reasonable plan and timeframe for finding somewhere else to live?
There's a very very good chance he knows this is coming after his misstep with the houseguest. He may grumble and be immature and bitch, but just keep an empathetic face and nod and yeah, moving sucks, but we need to figure something out. You surely realized we weren't adopting you and you'd have to move on eventually.
You want to have done your legal homework so that as soon as he starts with with OH WOE I am being thrown out on the street tonight OR the man, I dunno man, it could take a while you just go okay here's your written 90 day notice to prove that I'm not throwing you out and you also have a deadline. If you're not required to offer relocation assistance (it's not common), and you have the money, you could offer a bonus for getting out sooner than that. You can also offer a prorated refund on any rent he's paid if he moves mid-month, but I would put it in writing that you're not paying until the apartment is empty and the keys are in your hand.
I think 90 days is the nice thing to do even if it's more than the legal requirement. In California it's 60 days if they've been there AND PAYING RENT for more than a year.
Once you've had that conversation and you've served him with written notice, if he does not leave you will have to go through the eviction process.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:48 PM on May 5, 2022 [28 favorites]
You need a jurisdiction-specific lawyer. Most "just cause" eviction laws (including Portland's, btw; furnace.heart's analysis would be completely wrong for a Portland landlord in your situation) contain exemptions for actual shared space, an ADU, or a duplex in the landlord's principal dwelling, but only a good lawyer will be able to tell you for sure.
posted by praemunire at 3:48 PM on May 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 3:48 PM on May 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
He is also the drummer in my band, helped build out the garage into a recording studio, so he would still be at our house at least 1 or 2 times a week. Roommate is not a close friend, we only know each other through the band.
You're gonna need a new drummer.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:51 PM on May 5, 2022 [117 favorites]
You're gonna need a new drummer.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:51 PM on May 5, 2022 [117 favorites]
Also...are you under an eviction moratorium, by any chance? Due to Covid? That happened in LA, and a friend of mine who, in a moment of extreme kindness, let someone become a roommate in his guest room, ended up being completely unable to get the person to leave, with no legal recourse. He ended up paying the person $10k to go. Absolutely see a lawyer. :(
posted by BlahLaLa at 3:53 PM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by BlahLaLa at 3:53 PM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
and the keys are in your hand
I would plan to change the locks the next day, however, if not sooner. This roommate's guest stole from you, and this roommate didn't think it was a big deal?!
posted by humbug at 4:14 PM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would plan to change the locks the next day, however, if not sooner. This roommate's guest stole from you, and this roommate didn't think it was a big deal?!
posted by humbug at 4:14 PM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
If he reacted really immaturely when a friend started dating someone else, he is absolutely going to react really immaturely when you ask him to leave. I second the person pointing out you will not be able to remain in a band with this person.
posted by corb at 4:16 PM on May 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by corb at 4:16 PM on May 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: I hear the advice to lawyer up and I'm already taking steps there, consulting with a family friend.
I'd appreciate more examples or advice on the human relations aspect of this and how to make this happen in a way where everyone stays friendly.
posted by kittensofthenight at 4:19 PM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'd appreciate more examples or advice on the human relations aspect of this and how to make this happen in a way where everyone stays friendly.
posted by kittensofthenight at 4:19 PM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Why do you feel the need for "where everyone stays friendly"? Like soundguy99 said, you're going to need a new drummer.
posted by saturdaymornings at 4:28 PM on May 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by saturdaymornings at 4:28 PM on May 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
You could offer to pay his deposit on the new place. Consider it a convenience fee.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 4:40 PM on May 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 4:40 PM on May 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Why do you want to stay friends with a lying, toxic asshole who is taking advantage of you after you let him into your home and who covered for someone who stole from you? Unless he's the world's best drummer, you'd be better off getting this sponge out of your life.
Don't waste your strength or energy in trying to be nice to him. I doubt he's going to take this well or react in any way except by throwing a tantrum about it, judging by his history, so giving him the benefit of the doubt for any longer isn't going to benefit anyone. Consider how he acted when he was just rejected by someone he wanted to date and apply that to him being told he's being kicked out. Do you really think he's going to be an adult about this?
Cover your ass legally and eject him from your lives and your home. Maybe even change the locks and get a security camera if he's got friends who regularly steal from people.
posted by fight or flight at 4:41 PM on May 5, 2022 [29 favorites]
Don't waste your strength or energy in trying to be nice to him. I doubt he's going to take this well or react in any way except by throwing a tantrum about it, judging by his history, so giving him the benefit of the doubt for any longer isn't going to benefit anyone. Consider how he acted when he was just rejected by someone he wanted to date and apply that to him being told he's being kicked out. Do you really think he's going to be an adult about this?
Cover your ass legally and eject him from your lives and your home. Maybe even change the locks and get a security camera if he's got friends who regularly steal from people.
posted by fight or flight at 4:41 PM on May 5, 2022 [29 favorites]
Best answer: how to make this happen in a way where everyone stays friendly
Well, but that's the thing - you can't MAKE this happen in a way where everyone stays friendly, because you don't and can't control how your roommate is going to feel about and react to this.
You can - maybe - lessen the chances of him taking this badly by presenting this as "It would be nice to have a guest bedroom [now that pandemic is not so pandemic we have family and friends we'd like to have visit us], we want to use the basement for basement things," stay away from the cleaning & unwanted houseguest & immature rejection weirdness, just frame it as "you haven't done anything wrong, it's just time to move on", do it at a time when everyone is calm and relaxed, and give him a good long time like 90 days to find a new place.
But yeah, as corb says, his reaction to the dating thing does not bode well, and part of the reason people are suggesting you lawyer up is so you know what you can do if he does freak out.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:41 PM on May 5, 2022 [25 favorites]
Well, but that's the thing - you can't MAKE this happen in a way where everyone stays friendly, because you don't and can't control how your roommate is going to feel about and react to this.
You can - maybe - lessen the chances of him taking this badly by presenting this as "It would be nice to have a guest bedroom [now that pandemic is not so pandemic we have family and friends we'd like to have visit us], we want to use the basement for basement things," stay away from the cleaning & unwanted houseguest & immature rejection weirdness, just frame it as "you haven't done anything wrong, it's just time to move on", do it at a time when everyone is calm and relaxed, and give him a good long time like 90 days to find a new place.
But yeah, as corb says, his reaction to the dating thing does not bode well, and part of the reason people are suggesting you lawyer up is so you know what you can do if he does freak out.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:41 PM on May 5, 2022 [25 favorites]
And I mean, I get it, these kind of conversations are stressful and difficult and unpleasant for everyone, with or without anxiety or social awkwardness. I've had quite a few difficult and hostile encounters with asshole musicians and crowd members, and even when folks around me are going, "Whoa, dude, you shut that guy down without even blinking!" my stomach is in knots and my knees are shaking and my shoulders and upper back are rock hard with tension and I take the first possible opportunity to go someplace away from people for 30 seconds and take deep breaths. (well, and have a cigarette, too . . . )
So it's totally understandable that you are hoping that he takes it calmly, and goes, "Oh sure, OK, cool, then." But you should, IMO, kind of mentally gird yourself for that not happening. But, again, you do not control his reactions. That's totally on him, and is in no way your fault or responsibility.
I realize that I am an evil landlord, but I am trying not to be!
C'mon now - while many of us have strong feelings about landlords as a general class - especially corporate landlords - in this case you gave an un/under-employed guy a break for a couple of years during a once-in-a-century crisis. And in turn he repaid you by letting a guest steal your stuff, (apparently) not participating in basic household cleanliness (basic roommate stuff no matter where he lives), and driving a friend away because he can't behave like an adult.
You ain't evil, not by a long shot.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:07 PM on May 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
So it's totally understandable that you are hoping that he takes it calmly, and goes, "Oh sure, OK, cool, then." But you should, IMO, kind of mentally gird yourself for that not happening. But, again, you do not control his reactions. That's totally on him, and is in no way your fault or responsibility.
I realize that I am an evil landlord, but I am trying not to be!
C'mon now - while many of us have strong feelings about landlords as a general class - especially corporate landlords - in this case you gave an un/under-employed guy a break for a couple of years during a once-in-a-century crisis. And in turn he repaid you by letting a guest steal your stuff, (apparently) not participating in basic household cleanliness (basic roommate stuff no matter where he lives), and driving a friend away because he can't behave like an adult.
You ain't evil, not by a long shot.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:07 PM on May 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
Best answer: I was evicted by a couple that I was living with. We’d been sharing [their] home for 4 years (I did not have a lease), and they delivered the eviction notice by email while I was out of town— a few weeks after I had been laid off. 🙃 (in my situation, I was already well aware that my time as their tenant has run it’s course, and I was able to avoid living in my car/moving back in with my folks—-but just barely)
If you can scrape together *ANY* kind of excuse for why you need the space back, use it. While the eviction is in fact happening for personal reasons, if you can give a logistical reason (that is not an outright lie), use it. It will help you all survive the next 3 months much much better if there’s not a personal grudge between you.
Don’t do it over email—tell him in person *then* get it in writing.
Since you have friends in common, the external reason/excuse is even more valuable.
posted by itesser at 5:16 PM on May 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
If you can scrape together *ANY* kind of excuse for why you need the space back, use it. While the eviction is in fact happening for personal reasons, if you can give a logistical reason (that is not an outright lie), use it. It will help you all survive the next 3 months much much better if there’s not a personal grudge between you.
Don’t do it over email—tell him in person *then* get it in writing.
Since you have friends in common, the external reason/excuse is even more valuable.
posted by itesser at 5:16 PM on May 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I think the gentlest way to break it to them would be to tell them that you appreciate their help with the mortgage, but are going to need your house back in the near future (or whatever excuse allows the least argument) and ask them how much time they need to find a new place, then then bargain them down to/say what you can give them is 90 or 120 days, or whatever the legal minimum is in your area plus a little extra. That way they are more likely to feel they have some control over the situation and it's a mutual agreement rather than them being dictated to.
I mean, my cynicism says there aren't that many people in that space between people who will respect that it's your home and your wishes and the entitled jerks who will feel wronged no matter what, but at least you can be confident that you did everything reasonable to be a decent person about it.
posted by Zalzidrax at 5:30 PM on May 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
I mean, my cynicism says there aren't that many people in that space between people who will respect that it's your home and your wishes and the entitled jerks who will feel wronged no matter what, but at least you can be confident that you did everything reasonable to be a decent person about it.
posted by Zalzidrax at 5:30 PM on May 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Also, as someone who was on the other end of this, *I* don’t think you’re being sn evil landlord, or bad person of any kind. Due to our history, I wish my ex-housemates had given me more time (60 days is the legal requirement here), and I ended up very very angry for a while.
I don’t resent my ex-housemates for asking me to leave, just some of the details for how they went about it.
But I also agree that you may need to be prepared to replace him in your band.
posted by itesser at 5:33 PM on May 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don’t resent my ex-housemates for asking me to leave, just some of the details for how they went about it.
But I also agree that you may need to be prepared to replace him in your band.
posted by itesser at 5:33 PM on May 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think your desire to keep everyone happy is actually harmful to your tenant. He is under no obligation to keep liking you after this and your understandable wish to be seen as a good guy would add to the burden of his having to find a new place.
Research the legality of eviction in your situation (you can do that without paying a lawyer). Come up with a plan that is more generous than your basic legal requirement (more time and/or more money), then tell him factually and directly that you have decided you need the space now, you will be asking him to leave by [specific date] and you will provide him with [x compensation]. Make room for him to speak but don't argue or engage with a back and forth. Be kind but be direct and stay with your plan no matter what. If he raises some factor you hadn't considered, let him know you will think about it and come back to him in a week - do not change your plan mid-conversation.
If he wants to stay friends or not is up to him not you. Let him have his process.
posted by latkes at 5:58 PM on May 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Research the legality of eviction in your situation (you can do that without paying a lawyer). Come up with a plan that is more generous than your basic legal requirement (more time and/or more money), then tell him factually and directly that you have decided you need the space now, you will be asking him to leave by [specific date] and you will provide him with [x compensation]. Make room for him to speak but don't argue or engage with a back and forth. Be kind but be direct and stay with your plan no matter what. If he raises some factor you hadn't considered, let him know you will think about it and come back to him in a week - do not change your plan mid-conversation.
If he wants to stay friends or not is up to him not you. Let him have his process.
posted by latkes at 5:58 PM on May 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
There is nothing you can do to assure he's going to love you for this. You're just gonna have to deal with whatever happens even if it may be a little or quite uncomfortable.
The best you can do from YOUR end is try to offer a generously "fair" exit strategy but don't go into it acting like you're the bad guy. You're not. Keep your energy super level and come from an inner perspective that nobody should have expected that this deal was going to last forever. Just expect that informing him that his time is up is absolutely something he's expecting to hear and you're just clarifying the obvious. Most people would be a little nervous about a rental situation that had no lease and would know to treat it as extremely temporary; anybody else is fully aware they're taking advantage and are gonna do it until you're willing to push past the discomfort and put an end to it.
I do discourage offering any excuses beyond the obvious (the two of you bought the house for yourselves, this was never meant to be long-term), because excuses sound like negotiation points. Don't try to soften this for yourself by pretending your mom's coming to stay or that your plans for that space are soft enough that he can drag his feet. The landlord phase of your life is concluding and it is time for him to go.
If you absolutely need to play a "don't fuck with me" card: you nearly ended up with a squatter on your property and got burgled because of him and he refused to cooperate and is no longer a liability you're willing to entertain. You could have called the cops and that could have given you cause (in some jurisdictions) to issue a 3-day eviction. You want out of this situation as soon as possible and it is his fault. You don't have to say that out loud unless you have no choice, because you know he's a big baby, but that is actually the truth of this situation.
It is okay to be the bad guy and enforce boundaries with people who won't respect yours. Too bad if he doesn't like you. He's kind of an asshole, so that's fine.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:07 PM on May 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
The best you can do from YOUR end is try to offer a generously "fair" exit strategy but don't go into it acting like you're the bad guy. You're not. Keep your energy super level and come from an inner perspective that nobody should have expected that this deal was going to last forever. Just expect that informing him that his time is up is absolutely something he's expecting to hear and you're just clarifying the obvious. Most people would be a little nervous about a rental situation that had no lease and would know to treat it as extremely temporary; anybody else is fully aware they're taking advantage and are gonna do it until you're willing to push past the discomfort and put an end to it.
I do discourage offering any excuses beyond the obvious (the two of you bought the house for yourselves, this was never meant to be long-term), because excuses sound like negotiation points. Don't try to soften this for yourself by pretending your mom's coming to stay or that your plans for that space are soft enough that he can drag his feet. The landlord phase of your life is concluding and it is time for him to go.
If you absolutely need to play a "don't fuck with me" card: you nearly ended up with a squatter on your property and got burgled because of him and he refused to cooperate and is no longer a liability you're willing to entertain. You could have called the cops and that could have given you cause (in some jurisdictions) to issue a 3-day eviction. You want out of this situation as soon as possible and it is his fault. You don't have to say that out loud unless you have no choice, because you know he's a big baby, but that is actually the truth of this situation.
It is okay to be the bad guy and enforce boundaries with people who won't respect yours. Too bad if he doesn't like you. He's kind of an asshole, so that's fine.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:07 PM on May 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
Best answer: Reading all this I feel the need to speak up again.
Having legal back up in your pocket is always a nice thing, but I didn’t even bother with that. In the case of my friends the conversation went “Hey, I’m going to need you guys out of here.” “Crap. By when?”
And that was it. There was no formal Landlord/Tenant dispute. There was mild complaining about the apartment search process but none about being asked to leave. Two years later he was the Best Man at my wedding. Thirty years later we are all still good friends.
So by all means prepare in case things go south, but don’t make it your expectation that they will. People (especially friends) can be surprisingly reasonable when approached in an open and friendly manner. Don’t blow this up to more than inconveniencing a friend. If it’s going to blow up it will do it all on its own.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:41 PM on May 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
Having legal back up in your pocket is always a nice thing, but I didn’t even bother with that. In the case of my friends the conversation went “Hey, I’m going to need you guys out of here.” “Crap. By when?”
And that was it. There was no formal Landlord/Tenant dispute. There was mild complaining about the apartment search process but none about being asked to leave. Two years later he was the Best Man at my wedding. Thirty years later we are all still good friends.
So by all means prepare in case things go south, but don’t make it your expectation that they will. People (especially friends) can be surprisingly reasonable when approached in an open and friendly manner. Don’t blow this up to more than inconveniencing a friend. If it’s going to blow up it will do it all on its own.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:41 PM on May 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
I think your desire to keep everyone happy is actually harmful to your tenant.
I would also mention, only because in my skim of the answers I didn't see this, it's also potentially harmful to your relationship with your wife. She wants this guy gone yesterday. You're worried about how he's going to take it and I would argue that matters less than your wife being clear that you can handle this situation (or that the two of you can, depending on how you manage this). Because, look, in my late 20s I might have been a person who had someone overstay their time with me who turned out not to have a place to be otherwise. I'm pretty sure I've done that. It may not strictly speaking be normative but it happens. No one who stole but that's partly luck on my part.
However, someone whose response to a mistake like that isn't "Oh SHIT man I am SO SORRY that's on me, let me pay you back the money he stole...." is someone who is maybe not all about understanding the situation they're in, how to take responsibility for things, etc. Or might have mental health issues. Or might be a jerk. Hard to know. I think giving him a decent amount of time but a hard deadline is the decent thing to do. He might still be salty. He might not. Just wanting to use the basement for basement things is enough of a reason. The last thing you want to do is start with reasons that can be argued with like "We want to live in a clean place" "I'll be cleaner!" that kind of thing.
posted by jessamyn at 8:27 PM on May 5, 2022 [40 favorites]
I would also mention, only because in my skim of the answers I didn't see this, it's also potentially harmful to your relationship with your wife. She wants this guy gone yesterday. You're worried about how he's going to take it and I would argue that matters less than your wife being clear that you can handle this situation (or that the two of you can, depending on how you manage this). Because, look, in my late 20s I might have been a person who had someone overstay their time with me who turned out not to have a place to be otherwise. I'm pretty sure I've done that. It may not strictly speaking be normative but it happens. No one who stole but that's partly luck on my part.
However, someone whose response to a mistake like that isn't "Oh SHIT man I am SO SORRY that's on me, let me pay you back the money he stole...." is someone who is maybe not all about understanding the situation they're in, how to take responsibility for things, etc. Or might have mental health issues. Or might be a jerk. Hard to know. I think giving him a decent amount of time but a hard deadline is the decent thing to do. He might still be salty. He might not. Just wanting to use the basement for basement things is enough of a reason. The last thing you want to do is start with reasons that can be argued with like "We want to live in a clean place" "I'll be cleaner!" that kind of thing.
posted by jessamyn at 8:27 PM on May 5, 2022 [40 favorites]
Get legal advice and keep it in the back of your mind, but start with a conversation and hope that you don't need to go there.
"Hey man, it's been great* having you as a roommate the past couple of years, but wife and I are starting to feel like we'd like to live alone again at some point soon. Do you think you could start looking for a new place and move sometime within the next couple months?"
That's just the start of the conversation, see where it goes from there. Surely it won't be shocking to anyone that a couple might want to not have roommates at some point.
If there's any possibility that you might want kids or pets or something, you could also imply this is part of the reason.
* Okay, so it sounds like it hasn't been great, tweak wording if you like but try to keep it positive.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 9:48 PM on May 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
"Hey man, it's been great* having you as a roommate the past couple of years, but wife and I are starting to feel like we'd like to live alone again at some point soon. Do you think you could start looking for a new place and move sometime within the next couple months?"
That's just the start of the conversation, see where it goes from there. Surely it won't be shocking to anyone that a couple might want to not have roommates at some point.
If there's any possibility that you might want kids or pets or something, you could also imply this is part of the reason.
* Okay, so it sounds like it hasn't been great, tweak wording if you like but try to keep it positive.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 9:48 PM on May 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
The ethical thing to do would be to provide some time (at least 3 months, IMHO) for your tenant to find another space.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:51 PM on May 5, 2022
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:51 PM on May 5, 2022
I don't know or what to know what stole from you meant, but given that the police wren't involved while it is probably a big deal to you I'm guessing it isn't like a television or like cash in a sock drawer and probably maybe not irreplaceable. I'm not saying it wasn't right but I think dwelling on the bad parts of this will make you angry and irrational.
Look at it this way you helped someone out who needed a place to stay and you got help with your mortgage. Try to stay positive about it and don't look at it as someone is taking advantage of you. I think people get into negative mindsets in these situations. There seems to be some interpersonal drama and I'd advise to leave that out of it. Your tenant acted immaturely when rejected? Nothing to do with your landlord tenant relationship. Houseguest overstayed their welcome? That sucks but bringing it up will do no good at this point.
we're just older and want our own place
Perfectly reasonable! Maybe bring up that you'd like the extra space back (no need to give justification!), thank him for helping you out with the mortgage and say you'd like it by the end of June. Then stress you're doing him favor by giving him time after finals are done to help look for a place. He might try to negotiate as when someone is asked to leave unexpectedly that's how it goes, at least for me I'd freak out a bit. I'm guessing based on being in a band, a drummer, working and school he has plenty of people he can crash with or be able to find a place. Depending on his reaction I'd offer him half off on rent. Offering straight up money to leave or giving him a free month seems desperate and some less than reputable people I know would take advantage of it. Besides that try your best to not be his friend and offer to help him move or anything.
I mean it sucks and I feel that you have anxiety but I'm guessing he's not going to go all lawsuit on you and will just need a firm date to leave. Don't freak out if he takes everything up until that date. Don't ask where he's going or anything. I'd take a break from the band if I were you. Hey maybe you and your wife are trying to have a baby? In general it sounds like he has a social network, friends and probably won't be a problem.
Definitely see a lawyer and things, but wanting your space back is not something you should feel bad about. Again, I'd try as best as possible to not let little things about him annoy you and past drama to creep in or you'll unintentionally sour the relationship further. Good luck!
posted by geoff. at 10:09 PM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Look at it this way you helped someone out who needed a place to stay and you got help with your mortgage. Try to stay positive about it and don't look at it as someone is taking advantage of you. I think people get into negative mindsets in these situations. There seems to be some interpersonal drama and I'd advise to leave that out of it. Your tenant acted immaturely when rejected? Nothing to do with your landlord tenant relationship. Houseguest overstayed their welcome? That sucks but bringing it up will do no good at this point.
we're just older and want our own place
Perfectly reasonable! Maybe bring up that you'd like the extra space back (no need to give justification!), thank him for helping you out with the mortgage and say you'd like it by the end of June. Then stress you're doing him favor by giving him time after finals are done to help look for a place. He might try to negotiate as when someone is asked to leave unexpectedly that's how it goes, at least for me I'd freak out a bit. I'm guessing based on being in a band, a drummer, working and school he has plenty of people he can crash with or be able to find a place. Depending on his reaction I'd offer him half off on rent. Offering straight up money to leave or giving him a free month seems desperate and some less than reputable people I know would take advantage of it. Besides that try your best to not be his friend and offer to help him move or anything.
I mean it sucks and I feel that you have anxiety but I'm guessing he's not going to go all lawsuit on you and will just need a firm date to leave. Don't freak out if he takes everything up until that date. Don't ask where he's going or anything. I'd take a break from the band if I were you. Hey maybe you and your wife are trying to have a baby? In general it sounds like he has a social network, friends and probably won't be a problem.
Definitely see a lawyer and things, but wanting your space back is not something you should feel bad about. Again, I'd try as best as possible to not let little things about him annoy you and past drama to creep in or you'll unintentionally sour the relationship further. Good luck!
posted by geoff. at 10:09 PM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't think you need to hire a lawyer right now, since the rules about whether and when you can evict are pretty straightforward. Save the lawyer for if your tenant doesn't cooperate.
In Seattle, tenants may only be evicted for just cause, and one of those causes is: "Your landlord rents a portion of their own home or an accessory dwelling unit to their own home and no longer wishes to share with you."
You need not pay a relocation fee. You must issue a "Notice to Terminate Tenancy" at least 20 days before the end of a rental period. That's it.
Source: https://www.seattle.gov/rentinginseattle/renters/moving-out/just-cause-eviction-ordinance
I agree that you could start out willing to be more flexible than that, and offer him more time, but know that this is the law and you can enforce it if he is unreasonable or abusive when he hears he's being kicked out.
Based on his past reactions to being rejected, there's no way this guy is going to continue to be your drummer after he leaves. Even if he were willing, would your wife truly be ok with this guy coming back to your house to rehearse every week?
Yank off the whole bandaid.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 10:28 PM on May 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
In Seattle, tenants may only be evicted for just cause, and one of those causes is: "Your landlord rents a portion of their own home or an accessory dwelling unit to their own home and no longer wishes to share with you."
You need not pay a relocation fee. You must issue a "Notice to Terminate Tenancy" at least 20 days before the end of a rental period. That's it.
Source: https://www.seattle.gov/rentinginseattle/renters/moving-out/just-cause-eviction-ordinance
I agree that you could start out willing to be more flexible than that, and offer him more time, but know that this is the law and you can enforce it if he is unreasonable or abusive when he hears he's being kicked out.
Based on his past reactions to being rejected, there's no way this guy is going to continue to be your drummer after he leaves. Even if he were willing, would your wife truly be ok with this guy coming back to your house to rehearse every week?
Yank off the whole bandaid.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 10:28 PM on May 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'd appreciate more examples or advice on the human relations aspect of this and how to make this happen in a way where everyone stays friendly.
you got to start caring about your wife staying friendly with you even half as much as you care about this bozo's good opinion of you.
I don't know what you mean by toxic teenage shit, normal teens aren't "toxic", but whatever bad behavior falls under that euphemism, it drove an actual friend to keep away from you as the price of avoiding him. didn't you mind losing her visits much more than you'll mind losing this one's friendly attitude?
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:50 PM on May 5, 2022 [32 favorites]
you got to start caring about your wife staying friendly with you even half as much as you care about this bozo's good opinion of you.
I don't know what you mean by toxic teenage shit, normal teens aren't "toxic", but whatever bad behavior falls under that euphemism, it drove an actual friend to keep away from you as the price of avoiding him. didn't you mind losing her visits much more than you'll mind losing this one's friendly attitude?
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:50 PM on May 5, 2022 [32 favorites]
If he’s good with being a roommate AND taking classes, he likely has access to off-campus housing opportunities with his educational institution if he’s short on ideas for his Next Place…but he should have some ideas/leads, and you can offer to help him, as you are not “breaking up”, just doing a solid for a band mate.
posted by childofTethys at 11:04 PM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by childofTethys at 11:04 PM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Hey buddy, I am going to need you to move out in the next 90 days. If you can do it in the next seven days, I will give you $500 cash." My brother has used this tactic on a number of occasions with his rentals and it has worked EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Cheaper than a lawyer.
posted by eleslie at 3:45 AM on May 6, 2022 [31 favorites]
posted by eleslie at 3:45 AM on May 6, 2022 [31 favorites]
I'm going to nth the folks going off topic a bit and saying that you've got to have your wife's back here.
She's at a limit, her boundaries and feeling of safety in her own home have likely been compromised by the theft, and you're...anxious and afraid of confrontation?
For the sake of your marriage, you've got to work on this. You have to be a united front and stick up for one another. Be one another's hero sometimes. (I'm speaking from personal experience here, not taking up for your spouse erodes trust within a marriage.)
Consult an attorney and have that information in your back pocket. Have a conversation with your wife about how you'll work together if the roommate acts like a big baby. Calmly tell the roommate that you and your wife have made the decision it's time to have the house to yourselves and you've set a deadline.
Then, if the roommate does act like a big baby, stick to whatever strategy you and your wife agreed to.
Don't negotiate or dither, don't let your roommate pit you guys against each other, and don't throw your wife under the bus ("yeah I know she can be persnickety about dishes, but...").
Y'all are a team and you can do this.
posted by champers at 3:49 AM on May 6, 2022 [27 favorites]
She's at a limit, her boundaries and feeling of safety in her own home have likely been compromised by the theft, and you're...anxious and afraid of confrontation?
For the sake of your marriage, you've got to work on this. You have to be a united front and stick up for one another. Be one another's hero sometimes. (I'm speaking from personal experience here, not taking up for your spouse erodes trust within a marriage.)
Consult an attorney and have that information in your back pocket. Have a conversation with your wife about how you'll work together if the roommate acts like a big baby. Calmly tell the roommate that you and your wife have made the decision it's time to have the house to yourselves and you've set a deadline.
Then, if the roommate does act like a big baby, stick to whatever strategy you and your wife agreed to.
Don't negotiate or dither, don't let your roommate pit you guys against each other, and don't throw your wife under the bus ("yeah I know she can be persnickety about dishes, but...").
Y'all are a team and you can do this.
posted by champers at 3:49 AM on May 6, 2022 [27 favorites]
Pay him to leave. It is likely cheaper in the long run than an eviction.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:05 AM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacqueline at 4:05 AM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
You're feeling guilty, but you provided good housing at a low rent, helping him for several years. There will be a local legal aid group with a website. It will have information on tenants' rights and probably property owner rights & obligations(linked above). Read up. Tenants' Rights is an extremely local legal thing. You might need a lawyer but you'll save time and money by being informed. A lawyer can help you understand at what point you may need to start legal eviction proceedings.
Use your resources to help him find a new home. Ask among friends and coworkers. Somebody else may need a roommate, and it sounds like he's paid rent consistently. Schools often have a housing office 60 days is reasonable, but if it takes 90 days, that's not unreasonable. Consider helping him with a loan for a security deposit, fully understanding you may never be repaid. Friend, we need you to find a new place; we need to be able to use the basement. We value your friendship and will help you look.
I used to rent the other half of a 2 family house. Change is difficult and his reaction will be about him, and isn't something you can control. Be civil and straightforward, provide real help.
Your wife is making a valid choice and you should support it; don't make her the issue. Honestly, she's been pretty chill with a not-great housemate.
posted by theora55 at 7:32 AM on May 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Use your resources to help him find a new home. Ask among friends and coworkers. Somebody else may need a roommate, and it sounds like he's paid rent consistently. Schools often have a housing office 60 days is reasonable, but if it takes 90 days, that's not unreasonable. Consider helping him with a loan for a security deposit, fully understanding you may never be repaid. Friend, we need you to find a new place; we need to be able to use the basement. We value your friendship and will help you look.
I used to rent the other half of a 2 family house. Change is difficult and his reaction will be about him, and isn't something you can control. Be civil and straightforward, provide real help.
Your wife is making a valid choice and you should support it; don't make her the issue. Honestly, she's been pretty chill with a not-great housemate.
posted by theora55 at 7:32 AM on May 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am not a fan of lying, but this is a classic set-up for disaster if he feels ‘rejected,’ since he has already demonstrated that he is petulant and entitled and a liar. In this case the safest bet is to make up a serious, sad, adult reason why you need that space back, the more pathos the better. Sick parent needs to move in. Pregnancy that you aren’t making public yet. Fostering a child. Treat this guy like a potentially abusive partner, and do not raise their hackles or defensiveness, because from what you have described, he will dig in. Good luck.
posted by asimplemouse at 9:02 AM on May 6, 2022
posted by asimplemouse at 9:02 AM on May 6, 2022
Apologies if this seems flippant but:
You're gonna need a new drummer.
This is 100% true. I've personally witnessed two total band breakups as a result of mixing bandmates with roommate situations because of the way the energy changes with the group. (The only exception I've seen is it one bandmate/roommate moves out because they are getting married.)
As for the rest I also concur with the advice to lawyer up.
posted by nayantara at 10:41 AM on May 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
You're gonna need a new drummer.
This is 100% true. I've personally witnessed two total band breakups as a result of mixing bandmates with roommate situations because of the way the energy changes with the group. (The only exception I've seen is it one bandmate/roommate moves out because they are getting married.)
As for the rest I also concur with the advice to lawyer up.
posted by nayantara at 10:41 AM on May 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Your town should have a tenant’s rights number. Call them, explain the situation, ask what the proper way to terminate his tenancy is. That’ll cover you from a legal perspective.
From an emotional perspective: I think you are way more motivated by anxiety about talking to them about it than you are about actually keeping it friendly. Which is incredibly understandable, it’s going to be an uncomfortable conversation.
However keep in mind one thing, every day you wait to talk to your tenant is one more day that your wife is disappointed in you and the process. You are the one delaying the inevitable and, potentially, causing a serious problem in your marriage. Since you are apparently the only one who can tell the tenant (by choice? Or because you’re afraid he won’t respect your wife’s request? Or because he might be unsafe to be around given the stunt he pulled when he was turned down?) it is your responsibility to do it in a timely fashion. Don’t let your wife sit there and stew too.
posted by lydhre at 11:38 AM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
From an emotional perspective: I think you are way more motivated by anxiety about talking to them about it than you are about actually keeping it friendly. Which is incredibly understandable, it’s going to be an uncomfortable conversation.
However keep in mind one thing, every day you wait to talk to your tenant is one more day that your wife is disappointed in you and the process. You are the one delaying the inevitable and, potentially, causing a serious problem in your marriage. Since you are apparently the only one who can tell the tenant (by choice? Or because you’re afraid he won’t respect your wife’s request? Or because he might be unsafe to be around given the stunt he pulled when he was turned down?) it is your responsibility to do it in a timely fashion. Don’t let your wife sit there and stew too.
posted by lydhre at 11:38 AM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks all.
We decided to give him u til September and to cover last months rent (last months rent wasn't paid up front.
No need for any other excuses, and have an attorney to consult if needed.
posted by kittensofthenight at 5:01 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
We decided to give him u til September and to cover last months rent (last months rent wasn't paid up front.
No need for any other excuses, and have an attorney to consult if needed.
posted by kittensofthenight at 5:01 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
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