My abusive ex-friend wants to attend a support group I facilitate. Help?
March 11, 2022 1:40 PM Subscribe
Some months back, I ended an emotionally abusive friendship. Now they are saying they plan to attend a mental health support group that I facilitate. I am currently the sole facilitator, though others could be asked. Am I out of bounds to ask them not to attend? Please help me figure out what to do.
CW: Emotional abuse. Massive wall below.
About four months ago, I ended a two year friendship that had been steadily growing into outright abuse for much of that period. It culminated in a confrontation in which they maliciously berated me at length, but the abuse had taken other emotional forms as well. They had been paranoid, controlling, gaslighting, volatile, distrustful, accusative, manipulative, and dismissive of my personal boundaries. Things like ignoring my requests for space and then calling those requests controlling, calling me a gaslighter when we’d have different perspectives (down to the placement of silverware), demanding I limit my phone usage while together as they did what they pleased with theirs, admitting to provoking me into fights because I wasn’t attentive enough to their needs, etc. They were never physically abusive, and I have never felt physically unsafe in their presence, but I did eventually feel emotionally unsafe around them.
We’d had a habit of them apologizing after outbursts, and me forgiving them, but after that last outburst I responded that while I forgave them I could no longer be friends with them. They accepted that and did not contact me again until this past week, when they again emailed to apologize and ask if I would be friends with them again. After some deliberation, I answered last night with a short reply saying that while we had had some good times together and they have some nice qualities, I did not feel emotionally safe being friends with them. They responded that they understood.
And then they asked if I would feel okay if they attended our weekly mental health support group.
This is a group that both of us attended before and during our friendship. Admittedly they had come earlier to the group by a year or two- maybe four years ago- but I’ve become much more involved during my time there. While they facilitated the group once or twice, I became one of the primary facilitators, took on administrative duties, became the point of contact, and have largely kept it running since the pandemic started. For the last 8 months or so, I have been the sole facilitator as others have not volunteered to do so. My ex-friend has not attended since our fallout four months ago, and only attended occasionally in the year prior to that.
When I said I felt emotionally unsafe around them, that mostly describes my feelings at the thought of being around them or dealing with them. My sensations at getting their email last week were dread and anxiety. I had really struggled to assert myself with them, to set and maintain boundaries, to tell them things were over, and even to repeat that statement this week was hard enough that it took me five days to reply. The thought of again having to spend time with them in a physical space that has become a bit of a refuge, is deeply unpleasant, to say the least. I’m also worried about their intentions, that they might be attempting to reinsert themselves into my life, and what might happen if I rebuke them.
I have delayed responding to them since their response last night, and as I’ve written this today they have reached out again to say that they are planning to attend tomorrow, and that they are giving me a heads up. So it sounds like they weren’t particularly basing their decision to attend on my feelings. A heads up is something, I suppose.
So, after all this, which path forward? I am leaning towards responding that while I will be uneasy in their presence, the group is for everyone, and I can’t in good conscience prevent them from attending due to my own personal feelings. I will thank them for giving me the heads up and ask that they continue to do so. Then, I will ask a group member to facilitate in my absence tomorrow, and begin finding people who can facilitate when my ex-friend attends. Rinse, and repeat.
I am wondering what everyone’s thoughts might be. Do I even sound reasonable, both in how I have described this and in how I might move forward? Do I simply ask them not to attend? Is that a request I’m entitled to make? Would actively avoiding them like this blow up in my face, provoke them further, or allow them to sour my relationships behind my back (something they never did but sometimes threatened to do)? I have largely kept all of this hidden from the group, and do not wish to open up about what went on, but maybe it is necessary at this point? Everything that I experienced with this person would be surprising if not shocking to anyone who hasn’t spent extensive time with them. They are normally exceedingly friendly and easy going. Full disclosure: I am a cis man, and they are a cis woman, and perhaps some part of me worries that people might be inclined to take their side.
Maybe this will all blow over if I’m pleasantly distant and firm, but can I do that, I don’t know. Apologies for the wall, many thanks to anyone who’s read this far.
About four months ago, I ended a two year friendship that had been steadily growing into outright abuse for much of that period. It culminated in a confrontation in which they maliciously berated me at length, but the abuse had taken other emotional forms as well. They had been paranoid, controlling, gaslighting, volatile, distrustful, accusative, manipulative, and dismissive of my personal boundaries. Things like ignoring my requests for space and then calling those requests controlling, calling me a gaslighter when we’d have different perspectives (down to the placement of silverware), demanding I limit my phone usage while together as they did what they pleased with theirs, admitting to provoking me into fights because I wasn’t attentive enough to their needs, etc. They were never physically abusive, and I have never felt physically unsafe in their presence, but I did eventually feel emotionally unsafe around them.
We’d had a habit of them apologizing after outbursts, and me forgiving them, but after that last outburst I responded that while I forgave them I could no longer be friends with them. They accepted that and did not contact me again until this past week, when they again emailed to apologize and ask if I would be friends with them again. After some deliberation, I answered last night with a short reply saying that while we had had some good times together and they have some nice qualities, I did not feel emotionally safe being friends with them. They responded that they understood.
And then they asked if I would feel okay if they attended our weekly mental health support group.
This is a group that both of us attended before and during our friendship. Admittedly they had come earlier to the group by a year or two- maybe four years ago- but I’ve become much more involved during my time there. While they facilitated the group once or twice, I became one of the primary facilitators, took on administrative duties, became the point of contact, and have largely kept it running since the pandemic started. For the last 8 months or so, I have been the sole facilitator as others have not volunteered to do so. My ex-friend has not attended since our fallout four months ago, and only attended occasionally in the year prior to that.
When I said I felt emotionally unsafe around them, that mostly describes my feelings at the thought of being around them or dealing with them. My sensations at getting their email last week were dread and anxiety. I had really struggled to assert myself with them, to set and maintain boundaries, to tell them things were over, and even to repeat that statement this week was hard enough that it took me five days to reply. The thought of again having to spend time with them in a physical space that has become a bit of a refuge, is deeply unpleasant, to say the least. I’m also worried about their intentions, that they might be attempting to reinsert themselves into my life, and what might happen if I rebuke them.
I have delayed responding to them since their response last night, and as I’ve written this today they have reached out again to say that they are planning to attend tomorrow, and that they are giving me a heads up. So it sounds like they weren’t particularly basing their decision to attend on my feelings. A heads up is something, I suppose.
So, after all this, which path forward? I am leaning towards responding that while I will be uneasy in their presence, the group is for everyone, and I can’t in good conscience prevent them from attending due to my own personal feelings. I will thank them for giving me the heads up and ask that they continue to do so. Then, I will ask a group member to facilitate in my absence tomorrow, and begin finding people who can facilitate when my ex-friend attends. Rinse, and repeat.
I am wondering what everyone’s thoughts might be. Do I even sound reasonable, both in how I have described this and in how I might move forward? Do I simply ask them not to attend? Is that a request I’m entitled to make? Would actively avoiding them like this blow up in my face, provoke them further, or allow them to sour my relationships behind my back (something they never did but sometimes threatened to do)? I have largely kept all of this hidden from the group, and do not wish to open up about what went on, but maybe it is necessary at this point? Everything that I experienced with this person would be surprising if not shocking to anyone who hasn’t spent extensive time with them. They are normally exceedingly friendly and easy going. Full disclosure: I am a cis man, and they are a cis woman, and perhaps some part of me worries that people might be inclined to take their side.
Maybe this will all blow over if I’m pleasantly distant and firm, but can I do that, I don’t know. Apologies for the wall, many thanks to anyone who’s read this far.
Based on what you have written, I would do two things:
1. Write the person back and say you would be deeply uncomfortable if they attended the group and request that they please stay home.
You are currently the main facilitator. You cannot perform that service well if this abuser shows up. The group as a whole will suffer in addition to you.
2. Ask someone else to be available as a back up facilitator if your abuser shows up. Then leave. Rinse and repeat as necessary. Do not stay in that group for any meeting set includes your abuser.
I know it is sometimes hard for people to acknowledge that women can be emotionally and:or physically abusive toward men, which sucks when you are in that unlucky percentage of men who are abused by women. I can’t fix that problem but I am acquainted with it. I know it happens to men as well as women. I hear you. Your abuse was real. You deserve to feel safe. Please say no to this person’s request and then make plans for how to take care of yourself should your request be ignored. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 1:59 PM on March 11, 2022 [21 favorites]
1. Write the person back and say you would be deeply uncomfortable if they attended the group and request that they please stay home.
You are currently the main facilitator. You cannot perform that service well if this abuser shows up. The group as a whole will suffer in addition to you.
2. Ask someone else to be available as a back up facilitator if your abuser shows up. Then leave. Rinse and repeat as necessary. Do not stay in that group for any meeting set includes your abuser.
I know it is sometimes hard for people to acknowledge that women can be emotionally and:or physically abusive toward men, which sucks when you are in that unlucky percentage of men who are abused by women. I can’t fix that problem but I am acquainted with it. I know it happens to men as well as women. I hear you. Your abuse was real. You deserve to feel safe. Please say no to this person’s request and then make plans for how to take care of yourself should your request be ignored. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 1:59 PM on March 11, 2022 [21 favorites]
I bet this person, narcissist they are, wants to investigate how much you have shared with others about your ex-friendship. Possibly they are looking for a new victim, and then have a relationship in front of you to see, if they can inviegle a route back in to you, or punish you. Let them come and find out what they want, but also watch your back and do not socialize with them. Then figure out how to avoid the whole thing. Do not give them any oxygen. Find out what you are made of and stick to it, be your own best friend, be firm, always have other plans.
posted by Oyéah at 1:59 PM on March 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 1:59 PM on March 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: And then they asked if I would feel okay if they attended our weekly mental health support group.
They know exactly why they asked. Your answer is "No, I am not comfortable with that."
They asked, you answer truthfully. Yes, you can answer truthfully. Yes, you get to feel that way. Yes, they should just leave it the hell alone and find some other resource for what they need.
What happens from there may be more complicated if they're going to force the issue, but nobody knows what they're going to do and there is no Action A you can take that will guarantee Response X. It's not your job to manipulate them, it is simply your job to define your boundary and be clear and firm about it. Don't re-litigate old fights, don't worry about who's going to be believed, because if the point you're making is "I am not comfortable" it's really difficult for someone to say you're not.
I don't think you should be accommodating a single person's possible appearance with a constant Plan B of backup. I don't think you should leave the group because this person might show up. I think you should tell them you are not comfortable with them attending and leave it at that and see what they do.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:01 PM on March 11, 2022 [32 favorites]
They know exactly why they asked. Your answer is "No, I am not comfortable with that."
They asked, you answer truthfully. Yes, you can answer truthfully. Yes, you get to feel that way. Yes, they should just leave it the hell alone and find some other resource for what they need.
What happens from there may be more complicated if they're going to force the issue, but nobody knows what they're going to do and there is no Action A you can take that will guarantee Response X. It's not your job to manipulate them, it is simply your job to define your boundary and be clear and firm about it. Don't re-litigate old fights, don't worry about who's going to be believed, because if the point you're making is "I am not comfortable" it's really difficult for someone to say you're not.
I don't think you should be accommodating a single person's possible appearance with a constant Plan B of backup. I don't think you should leave the group because this person might show up. I think you should tell them you are not comfortable with them attending and leave it at that and see what they do.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:01 PM on March 11, 2022 [32 favorites]
I would own your role as facilitator here and reply that, as facilitator, you will have to decline their request. I suggest involving one or two other people, if there are others who have at times facilitated, not to create drama, but to provide some offialdom outside of your interpersonal conflict.
posted by latkes at 2:19 PM on March 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by latkes at 2:19 PM on March 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
In case it makes you feel better and more confident about saying no to them: It is surely no coincidence that they decided they wanted to come to the group, right on the heels of asking to resume your friendship and you saying no.
You've successfully defended one boundary (yay!) so now they're feeling their way along it to try and find another weak spot that they can broach and make it through your defences. It seems unlikely that they've suddenly now decided that the only place that can offer them support is a group facilitated by a person who doesn't like them (who would find that helpful to their mental health?!). It seems more likely that, whether they realise it or not, they want to come in order to try and maintain some sense of control over you. Keep setting that boundary - you've already proved you can do it once, let that give you strength.
Tell them very clearly no.
Then the ideal I guess would be that you talk to the other facilitators very honestly, tell them what's been happening, and assuming they're in support of you, have one of them come with you the first week. If this person shows up, you get up and leave immediately, and the other facilitator closes the session, explains briefly to the others that this person has been asked not to attend, for reasons that they can't discuss, and that no sessions will be held when this person turns up. That at least saves you from having to argue with them in the space, makes it clear that the group/organisation as a whole does not welcome them rather than it being simply a one to one fight. It also means you don't have to go through the stress of wondering if you're going to have to try and throw them out personally.
Maybe you need this to happen a few weeks in a row, but you'd have to hope that after that, they'd give up. Good luck.
posted by penguin pie at 2:49 PM on March 11, 2022 [16 favorites]
You've successfully defended one boundary (yay!) so now they're feeling their way along it to try and find another weak spot that they can broach and make it through your defences. It seems unlikely that they've suddenly now decided that the only place that can offer them support is a group facilitated by a person who doesn't like them (who would find that helpful to their mental health?!). It seems more likely that, whether they realise it or not, they want to come in order to try and maintain some sense of control over you. Keep setting that boundary - you've already proved you can do it once, let that give you strength.
Tell them very clearly no.
Then the ideal I guess would be that you talk to the other facilitators very honestly, tell them what's been happening, and assuming they're in support of you, have one of them come with you the first week. If this person shows up, you get up and leave immediately, and the other facilitator closes the session, explains briefly to the others that this person has been asked not to attend, for reasons that they can't discuss, and that no sessions will be held when this person turns up. That at least saves you from having to argue with them in the space, makes it clear that the group/organisation as a whole does not welcome them rather than it being simply a one to one fight. It also means you don't have to go through the stress of wondering if you're going to have to try and throw them out personally.
Maybe you need this to happen a few weeks in a row, but you'd have to hope that after that, they'd give up. Good luck.
posted by penguin pie at 2:49 PM on March 11, 2022 [16 favorites]
It’s actually a conflict of interest to facilitate a support group including anyone you know from outside the group. This is a well accepted universal norm. In fact it’s a universal norm for any two people who know each other not even to attend the same group. Ask for help from your colleagues and supervisors and get them to a) find an alternate support group from another org that the narcissist can inquire about attending and b) make a clear and firm statement that if she attends your group she will be trespassing. It can be a kind statement using low key language - just that you know each other is enough, it doesn’t need to say that she did anything bad or anything that she could argue with, just stating a clear policy.
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 3:11 PM on March 11, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 3:11 PM on March 11, 2022 [26 favorites]
A person who meaningfully understood and respected that they had hurt you so seriously you could not reconnect as friends would not ask to come to a mental health support group you facilitate. This request boils down to, "I'm sorry I totaled your car... Say, could you lend me your bike?"
posted by theotherdurassister at 3:12 PM on March 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by theotherdurassister at 3:12 PM on March 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
You were right to end the relationship. I have been through a similar experience. I even went so far as to change my phone number because he ignored my request not to call me late at night when he'd been drinking. I'll spare you a wall of context. Instead, I affirm that a relationship as toxic as the one you describe is worth ending as soon as possible.
The problem you describe boils down to your discomfort at being the facilitator when your ex-friend attends the meetings. In the past, your ex-friend attended the group for reasons that have nothing to do with you. I'm not clear whether you actually have the authority to exclude your ex-friend from the group. Even if you do, asking the group to support your desire to exclude your ex-friend from the meetings is a loose way to groom the group to accept people you like and reject those you don't like. This is probably not what you are trying to accomplish, but function follows form.
You could ask for another person to facilitate handling the meetings when your ex-friend shows up, or you could withdraw from being the facilitator. I don't know if the rift between the two of you is appropriate for discussion in your support group. If so, your ex-friend may benefit from talking about it with the group. I suppose the group can advise you on this.
posted by mule98J at 5:02 PM on March 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
The problem you describe boils down to your discomfort at being the facilitator when your ex-friend attends the meetings. In the past, your ex-friend attended the group for reasons that have nothing to do with you. I'm not clear whether you actually have the authority to exclude your ex-friend from the group. Even if you do, asking the group to support your desire to exclude your ex-friend from the meetings is a loose way to groom the group to accept people you like and reject those you don't like. This is probably not what you are trying to accomplish, but function follows form.
You could ask for another person to facilitate handling the meetings when your ex-friend shows up, or you could withdraw from being the facilitator. I don't know if the rift between the two of you is appropriate for discussion in your support group. If so, your ex-friend may benefit from talking about it with the group. I suppose the group can advise you on this.
posted by mule98J at 5:02 PM on March 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
From a therapeutic professional standpoint (I'm assuming this is a peer facilitated group without a licensed provider, and you are posting this because there really isn't a supervisor or someone you personally can have handle this in a professional capacity because if that's the case get everyone you can informed right this minute) this would be a dual relationship and the polite thing to do is 1) I'm sorry but because I know you this group is not available to you. And 2) Please seek out a different group then list some possible options.
If he shows up and refuses to leave apologize to the group that you are unable to facilitate, ask everyone to leave and proceed to lock up. Do not hold group with him present. If someone volunteers to facilitate then gracefully handle it and leave.
I say this because while stopping the group may seem mean, witnessing the interaction between you and your ex-partner in a power dynamic like this would be very very uncomfortable and potentially traumatizing. Don't do it. Set firm boundries.
If you are concerned for your safety and do not feel that you have enough support to have this person leave the group, or to have a concrete plan on what to do cancel the group meeting this week for personal reasons, shore up the support you need and come in with a coherent plan next week.
The more informal the group is, the easier of a time you will have quietly just changing the meeting location or time. It's possible you will be able to use peer support of other group members support to handle this via peer pressure.
I'd also remind you that ongoing support groups evolve and change with its members. The group he was active in no longer exists as it did when he was participatory on a regular basis in the past. He is not asking to join his old group, it no longer exists, he is asking to join the one you facilitate.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:12 PM on March 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
If he shows up and refuses to leave apologize to the group that you are unable to facilitate, ask everyone to leave and proceed to lock up. Do not hold group with him present. If someone volunteers to facilitate then gracefully handle it and leave.
I say this because while stopping the group may seem mean, witnessing the interaction between you and your ex-partner in a power dynamic like this would be very very uncomfortable and potentially traumatizing. Don't do it. Set firm boundries.
If you are concerned for your safety and do not feel that you have enough support to have this person leave the group, or to have a concrete plan on what to do cancel the group meeting this week for personal reasons, shore up the support you need and come in with a coherent plan next week.
The more informal the group is, the easier of a time you will have quietly just changing the meeting location or time. It's possible you will be able to use peer support of other group members support to handle this via peer pressure.
I'd also remind you that ongoing support groups evolve and change with its members. The group he was active in no longer exists as it did when he was participatory on a regular basis in the past. He is not asking to join his old group, it no longer exists, he is asking to join the one you facilitate.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:12 PM on March 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
I realised I called them ex partner when they are an ex friend,and incorrect pronouns outside the posting window. I'm sorry.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:20 PM on March 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:20 PM on March 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
In addition to the excellent advice you have received above (say no, and it's not your responsibility to ensure that this person finds the support they need) please also evict them from your thoughts once you've made that decision.
You need to respect your own boundaries too. Don't have any imaginary conversations with this person in which you try to state your case. Stop going over all the reasons why this might not be the right thing to do.
Stop putting yourself in their shoes and trying to guess what they might do / say / feel.
Stop running endless internal tests to check, double check and triple check that you are doing the right thing.
Trust yourself. You, unlike your ex-friend, have excellent "am I doing the right thing" detectors and those detectors are burning out through over-use. Make the decision. Then stop second guessing yourself.
If you find yourself starting to ruminate and doubt again, stop that inner voice kindly, and find something distracting to do. Watch a ridiculous otter pup video. Try to remember the words to a hilarious limerick you once heard. Play wordle. Whatever will occupy your attention.
Remove this person from your inner life as well. This internet stranger wishes you peace, ease and small moments of joy.
posted by Zumbador at 7:46 PM on March 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
You need to respect your own boundaries too. Don't have any imaginary conversations with this person in which you try to state your case. Stop going over all the reasons why this might not be the right thing to do.
Stop putting yourself in their shoes and trying to guess what they might do / say / feel.
Stop running endless internal tests to check, double check and triple check that you are doing the right thing.
Trust yourself. You, unlike your ex-friend, have excellent "am I doing the right thing" detectors and those detectors are burning out through over-use. Make the decision. Then stop second guessing yourself.
If you find yourself starting to ruminate and doubt again, stop that inner voice kindly, and find something distracting to do. Watch a ridiculous otter pup video. Try to remember the words to a hilarious limerick you once heard. Play wordle. Whatever will occupy your attention.
Remove this person from your inner life as well. This internet stranger wishes you peace, ease and small moments of joy.
posted by Zumbador at 7:46 PM on March 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
You sound very reasonable, and your reaction to this boundary-busting behaviour by your ex-friend is very understandable. But, the situation is actually relatively simple: she asked you a question about whether or not you are comfortable with her attending, and you are not. She should not have asked if she wasn't prepared to hear what you have to say.
I'd suggest you answer her in a very simple and straightforward way, e.g. "thanks for asking, no, I'm not comfortable, you will need to find another group." If you have a list of other groups you can give it to her, but don't take responsibility for finding her anything or get into any kind of detailed justification.
I have a former friend like this, and based on my experience, I'd say that this person definitely knows what she's doing. You've cut off the friendship connection and now she is trying to find another way to get your attention. You don't have to go along with it.
posted by rpfields at 8:39 PM on March 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'd suggest you answer her in a very simple and straightforward way, e.g. "thanks for asking, no, I'm not comfortable, you will need to find another group." If you have a list of other groups you can give it to her, but don't take responsibility for finding her anything or get into any kind of detailed justification.
I have a former friend like this, and based on my experience, I'd say that this person definitely knows what she's doing. You've cut off the friendship connection and now she is trying to find another way to get your attention. You don't have to go along with it.
posted by rpfields at 8:39 PM on March 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
And then they asked if I would feel okay if they attended our weekly mental health support group.
No. Absolutely not. This is not a good-faith attempt to see out support, this is an abuser probing an attack surface.
posted by mhoye at 8:47 PM on March 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
No. Absolutely not. This is not a good-faith attempt to see out support, this is an abuser probing an attack surface.
posted by mhoye at 8:47 PM on March 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
You were in a relationship and it went badly and you're ending it.
It sounds like the group is hosted by someone else, and you facilitate it. It is not appropriate for the members of a broken relationship to participate in a group together, because they'll take up too much of the group's energy and probably create schisms. So, I think it would be inappropriate for you to be part of the group and if they try to attend anyway I will not be able to continue in the group if you are present.
I'm sorry you had such a crappy time with this person.
posted by theora55 at 6:21 AM on March 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
It sounds like the group is hosted by someone else, and you facilitate it. It is not appropriate for the members of a broken relationship to participate in a group together, because they'll take up too much of the group's energy and probably create schisms. So, I think it would be inappropriate for you to be part of the group and if they try to attend anyway I will not be able to continue in the group if you are present.
I'm sorry you had such a crappy time with this person.
posted by theora55 at 6:21 AM on March 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's pretty clear that your former friend does not respect you or your boundaries, even when you are explicit about them.
I think you need to let other people know what's happening. I'd let other group members know some very condensed version of the situation and tell them that you've asked this person not to attend.
If the person shows up, I think you should leave, knowing that other group members understand the situation and will have an opportunity to show you some support, either by leaving themselves or by asking the former friend not to attend.
posted by yellowcandy at 10:11 AM on March 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think you need to let other people know what's happening. I'd let other group members know some very condensed version of the situation and tell them that you've asked this person not to attend.
If the person shows up, I think you should leave, knowing that other group members understand the situation and will have an opportunity to show you some support, either by leaving themselves or by asking the former friend not to attend.
posted by yellowcandy at 10:11 AM on March 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
And then they asked if I would feel okay if they attended our weekly mental health support group.
Coming on the heels of your statement about not feeling safe around them, this is a particularly not-okay thing for them to do. If I were you I'd just "Oh hell no" to their request since they clearly asked. I know a lot of people ask not-really-questions questions and I suspect this is one of them but I'd say no. Go to a meeting without them, explain the situation, leave if they show up. If they insist on crossing this boundary you can either work within channels of the group to handle this as an escalation/continuation of abuse or move on and find another group. But in short: they asked, you answered. Do not drag out this relationship, do not explain, just say no and then take care of yourself (and your boundaries) moving forward.
posted by jessamyn at 11:02 AM on March 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Coming on the heels of your statement about not feeling safe around them, this is a particularly not-okay thing for them to do. If I were you I'd just "Oh hell no" to their request since they clearly asked. I know a lot of people ask not-really-questions questions and I suspect this is one of them but I'd say no. Go to a meeting without them, explain the situation, leave if they show up. If they insist on crossing this boundary you can either work within channels of the group to handle this as an escalation/continuation of abuse or move on and find another group. But in short: they asked, you answered. Do not drag out this relationship, do not explain, just say no and then take care of yourself (and your boundaries) moving forward.
posted by jessamyn at 11:02 AM on March 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone who has responded, I truly appreciate it. Last night I decided to follow the advice of simply answering their question honestly and directly. I thanked them for the heads up and wrote that no, I would not feel okay with them attending.
They are still planning to attend. We had a back and forth where I reiterated feeling unsafe and mentioned that they’ve been abusive, but they claim that even if it makes me uncomfortable, they have as much right to the group as I do, and that it’s unfair that I get to decide who can attend. I pointed out that I wasn’t deciding, only telling them how I felt. They are resolved apparently.
I reached out to a couple other people to facilitate in my place today, but as it turned out, there was no meeting anyway. Because snow. We possibly could have had it, but this was the group’s decision. When I let my ex-friend know they seemed to accept that.
Some clarifications before moving on:
The group is a peer led group, and the dynamics are such that nearly everyone knows and spends time with each other outside of group. It’s actively encouraged. It would be unrealistic to change that dynamic at this point, though your feedback on universal norms does give me pause. Also, the group has little organizational structure with which to assert a firm ban on somebody. We have done it in the past, but we were fortunate that the person accepted the ban without issue. I have no executive authority whatsoever- no one does- and there is minimal hierarchy. My ex-friend is aware of this. We openly advertise our meetings, so suddenly changing them to a disclosed time would be a big change also, though possible I suppose.
Regarding my ex-friend, I should clarify that they have been out of the area these past four months, and claim to have been attending similar groups elsewhere, so while their attempt at reconciliation is surely connected to their request to attend, it is somewhat reasonable to believe they are springing this on me now just because they’ve returned to town. Also, I should say that they afaik only believe that their insults and name calling rose to the level of abuse, and they only berated me a few times, compared to all of the other behaviors.
Which brings me to another point. I’m not sure I’ve ever described their behavior using the language of abuse as much as I did in this post, and I’ve been second guessing myself since then. I’ve seen two therapists during and since the friendship, and only regarding the insults did either of them outright say to me, “that is abuse.” We’ve talked about their other behaviors frequently, never quite explicitly saying it was abuse, and my therapist even helped me formulate the “emotionally unsafe” line two days ago. I’m wondering though if perhaps they are just an extremely difficult person who occasionally engages in murky borderline terrible behavior without it being so black and white. I’ve been questioning the list of examples I wrote too. Perhaps they were unfair, misrepresentative, or just not that bad? The silverware mention was probably a bad example, too bizarre to go into and not as ridiculous as I implied. Yes they’re clearly extremely dismissive of personal boundaries, but is that abuse or just shittiness? God, I’m even wondering if I genuinely do feel unsafe around them, or if I’m misinterpreting some other feeling- merely discomfort or something. I appreciate the responses outlining how unacceptable it is of them to even ask to attend after what I’ve expressed and under these circumstances; those do help to fortify my perspective.
At this point, I’m not sure I want to fight so hard for this. I’m not sure I have the legitimate power to do so, or legitimate reasons, for something that could easily come across as a massive power trip to anyone on the outside. I’m not even 100% sure it’s not one myself, especially if I can’t speak more definitively about what went on and how it affected me. When they wrote that it wasn’t fair for me to moderate who could attend, even though I clarified that I was expressing my feelings only, I’m aware that my feelings and decisions are closely intertwined here due to my position. I think someone above alluded to this. Yeah, perhaps one person shouldn’t have such a prominent role in the first place.
Going forward, I’m planning to ask the other long-standing members if we can begin rotating facilitators again, and I will probably avoid my ex-friend for the time being. I think I will share with at least some of the others what’s going on, maybe even showing them this post, and go from there. Things seem like they are going to get pretty weird.
It seemed like most people believed that I shouldn’t leave or diminish my role because of them, but has your opinion shifted now? Do you still think I should fight for this?
posted by teekat at 1:12 PM on March 12, 2022
They are still planning to attend. We had a back and forth where I reiterated feeling unsafe and mentioned that they’ve been abusive, but they claim that even if it makes me uncomfortable, they have as much right to the group as I do, and that it’s unfair that I get to decide who can attend. I pointed out that I wasn’t deciding, only telling them how I felt. They are resolved apparently.
I reached out to a couple other people to facilitate in my place today, but as it turned out, there was no meeting anyway. Because snow. We possibly could have had it, but this was the group’s decision. When I let my ex-friend know they seemed to accept that.
Some clarifications before moving on:
The group is a peer led group, and the dynamics are such that nearly everyone knows and spends time with each other outside of group. It’s actively encouraged. It would be unrealistic to change that dynamic at this point, though your feedback on universal norms does give me pause. Also, the group has little organizational structure with which to assert a firm ban on somebody. We have done it in the past, but we were fortunate that the person accepted the ban without issue. I have no executive authority whatsoever- no one does- and there is minimal hierarchy. My ex-friend is aware of this. We openly advertise our meetings, so suddenly changing them to a disclosed time would be a big change also, though possible I suppose.
Regarding my ex-friend, I should clarify that they have been out of the area these past four months, and claim to have been attending similar groups elsewhere, so while their attempt at reconciliation is surely connected to their request to attend, it is somewhat reasonable to believe they are springing this on me now just because they’ve returned to town. Also, I should say that they afaik only believe that their insults and name calling rose to the level of abuse, and they only berated me a few times, compared to all of the other behaviors.
Which brings me to another point. I’m not sure I’ve ever described their behavior using the language of abuse as much as I did in this post, and I’ve been second guessing myself since then. I’ve seen two therapists during and since the friendship, and only regarding the insults did either of them outright say to me, “that is abuse.” We’ve talked about their other behaviors frequently, never quite explicitly saying it was abuse, and my therapist even helped me formulate the “emotionally unsafe” line two days ago. I’m wondering though if perhaps they are just an extremely difficult person who occasionally engages in murky borderline terrible behavior without it being so black and white. I’ve been questioning the list of examples I wrote too. Perhaps they were unfair, misrepresentative, or just not that bad? The silverware mention was probably a bad example, too bizarre to go into and not as ridiculous as I implied. Yes they’re clearly extremely dismissive of personal boundaries, but is that abuse or just shittiness? God, I’m even wondering if I genuinely do feel unsafe around them, or if I’m misinterpreting some other feeling- merely discomfort or something. I appreciate the responses outlining how unacceptable it is of them to even ask to attend after what I’ve expressed and under these circumstances; those do help to fortify my perspective.
At this point, I’m not sure I want to fight so hard for this. I’m not sure I have the legitimate power to do so, or legitimate reasons, for something that could easily come across as a massive power trip to anyone on the outside. I’m not even 100% sure it’s not one myself, especially if I can’t speak more definitively about what went on and how it affected me. When they wrote that it wasn’t fair for me to moderate who could attend, even though I clarified that I was expressing my feelings only, I’m aware that my feelings and decisions are closely intertwined here due to my position. I think someone above alluded to this. Yeah, perhaps one person shouldn’t have such a prominent role in the first place.
Going forward, I’m planning to ask the other long-standing members if we can begin rotating facilitators again, and I will probably avoid my ex-friend for the time being. I think I will share with at least some of the others what’s going on, maybe even showing them this post, and go from there. Things seem like they are going to get pretty weird.
It seemed like most people believed that I shouldn’t leave or diminish my role because of them, but has your opinion shifted now? Do you still think I should fight for this?
posted by teekat at 1:12 PM on March 12, 2022
they claim that even if it makes me uncomfortable, they have as much right to the group as I do
This is a thing that unreasonable people say, people who are not being considerate of your feelings and/or boundaries. So I think then, yeah, you have a thing to work out yourself. You can continue to go to this meeting, call them out on any bullshit they engage in, maybe enlist a friend to help you feel safe, or you can walk away, leave it for them, consider it another shitty thing that happened as a result of the bad stuff that went down with them and find other paths.
Because, yeah, if you've been in an abusive/gaslighting relationship like this, even a friend relationship, it's still okay to feel your feelings, whatever they are. You can even, if you choose, decide that you were the recipient of abuse without deciding to call them an abuser (that can be complicated for a person who is still in your life, however tangentially), or even vice versa, that they were abusive but you were not harmed by that. I'm not suggesting that you feel/think either of these thing but just you get to control your narrative of what happened and how you feel about those things and those are good things to work out with a therapist. So, my opinion hasn't shifted but I know what it's like to feel unsure, especially around someone else with a strong personality who is also a negative drain on your emotions.
posted by jessamyn at 3:47 PM on March 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is a thing that unreasonable people say, people who are not being considerate of your feelings and/or boundaries. So I think then, yeah, you have a thing to work out yourself. You can continue to go to this meeting, call them out on any bullshit they engage in, maybe enlist a friend to help you feel safe, or you can walk away, leave it for them, consider it another shitty thing that happened as a result of the bad stuff that went down with them and find other paths.
Because, yeah, if you've been in an abusive/gaslighting relationship like this, even a friend relationship, it's still okay to feel your feelings, whatever they are. You can even, if you choose, decide that you were the recipient of abuse without deciding to call them an abuser (that can be complicated for a person who is still in your life, however tangentially), or even vice versa, that they were abusive but you were not harmed by that. I'm not suggesting that you feel/think either of these thing but just you get to control your narrative of what happened and how you feel about those things and those are good things to work out with a therapist. So, my opinion hasn't shifted but I know what it's like to feel unsure, especially around someone else with a strong personality who is also a negative drain on your emotions.
posted by jessamyn at 3:47 PM on March 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
The thing that seems especially lousy to me is that they asked if you would feel okay if they attended this group, and then decreed it "unfair" when you honestly told them no, you would not feel okay.
That's bullshit.
That's them utterly dismissing your feelings, AND going further by framing you as the bad guy. They surely knew that if you spoke honestly, you would be telling them no. They put you in a position where you could not win - either you betray yourself by saying you'd be okay when you're not, or you tell them the truth and be told what you feel is wrong.
You say you're having doubts over how bad things really were, but even this one exchange seems like a clear-cut example of a person who does not respect your feelings.
Your feelings are valid, and you deserve to trust them. I don't know if that's going to look like standing your ground at these meetings, walking out any time they attend, seeking out a different group, or some phased combination of all three. But do I know that you have the right to be true to how you feel about this person, and to keep yourself safe, however you need to do it.
posted by DingoMutt at 4:27 PM on March 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
That's bullshit.
That's them utterly dismissing your feelings, AND going further by framing you as the bad guy. They surely knew that if you spoke honestly, you would be telling them no. They put you in a position where you could not win - either you betray yourself by saying you'd be okay when you're not, or you tell them the truth and be told what you feel is wrong.
You say you're having doubts over how bad things really were, but even this one exchange seems like a clear-cut example of a person who does not respect your feelings.
Your feelings are valid, and you deserve to trust them. I don't know if that's going to look like standing your ground at these meetings, walking out any time they attend, seeking out a different group, or some phased combination of all three. But do I know that you have the right to be true to how you feel about this person, and to keep yourself safe, however you need to do it.
posted by DingoMutt at 4:27 PM on March 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
wondering if I genuinely do feel unsafe around them, or if I’m misinterpreting some other feeling- merely discomfort or something.
Who cares? You don't have to feel "unsafe," in the sense of feeling threatened, in order to have a valid reason to prefer not to be in a therapeutic sharing situation with someone you're not comfortable with.
Obviously in a mental health setting, a minimum requirement is that you are comfortable. You aren't comfortable with this person. Their being there will make the group unusable for you. They know this. (Or perhaps they believe you will stay and give them access to you in this inappropriate way. I don't know the motivation.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:47 PM on March 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Who cares? You don't have to feel "unsafe," in the sense of feeling threatened, in order to have a valid reason to prefer not to be in a therapeutic sharing situation with someone you're not comfortable with.
Obviously in a mental health setting, a minimum requirement is that you are comfortable. You aren't comfortable with this person. Their being there will make the group unusable for you. They know this. (Or perhaps they believe you will stay and give them access to you in this inappropriate way. I don't know the motivation.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:47 PM on March 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Only you know how vital this group is to you as a support, and whether that support is so valuable and irreplaceable that it outweighs the harm you’d experience by having to interact with them there.
But if you’re resisting walking away from the group because you feel a duty and an obligation to continue your role as facilitator - most volunteer roles have an end point. Ideally the volunteer steps away while they still feel good about things and moves away to pastures new with the satisfaction of a job well done, rather than going down in flames when something goes wrong. Maybe this is your end point.
Or maybe you don’t want to leave because it feels like that would be giving in to them? This internet stranger gives you permission to make the choice to walk away if that would be a relief, and to celebrate it inwardly as a sign of your own strength at setting your own boundaries. You also then have the freedom to block this person on all channels, send their emails straight to trash, and move on with your life.
It doesn’t sound like a group that has great boundaries as an organisation. Maybe now you’re finding your strength and assertiveness, you’ve outgrown it?
It doesn’t have to matter whether they were abusive or not - if you don’t like the way the friendship makes you feel, you have the absolute right to remove yourself from it.
But of course that all depends on how crucial the support is to you, that you currently get from the group.
posted by penguin pie at 5:02 PM on March 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
But if you’re resisting walking away from the group because you feel a duty and an obligation to continue your role as facilitator - most volunteer roles have an end point. Ideally the volunteer steps away while they still feel good about things and moves away to pastures new with the satisfaction of a job well done, rather than going down in flames when something goes wrong. Maybe this is your end point.
Or maybe you don’t want to leave because it feels like that would be giving in to them? This internet stranger gives you permission to make the choice to walk away if that would be a relief, and to celebrate it inwardly as a sign of your own strength at setting your own boundaries. You also then have the freedom to block this person on all channels, send their emails straight to trash, and move on with your life.
It doesn’t sound like a group that has great boundaries as an organisation. Maybe now you’re finding your strength and assertiveness, you’ve outgrown it?
It doesn’t have to matter whether they were abusive or not - if you don’t like the way the friendship makes you feel, you have the absolute right to remove yourself from it.
But of course that all depends on how crucial the support is to you, that you currently get from the group.
posted by penguin pie at 5:02 PM on March 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is one of the huge pitfalls of peer led groups, the power dynamics aren't clear cut, the organization doesn't lead to clear, quick decision making, continuing to keep the space safe to all members is an ongoing challenge and there isn't necessarily someone in the group who can take leadership, and move forward in a way that's best for the group.
I really understand why peer led groups exist but structure to maintain safety is a pretty important key component to any group.
Please don't doubt yourself over this. They have been gone 4 months, in which you likely had zero contact with them, to come back in like this is disturbing and likely purposeful.
I do think that trying to do a halfway thing in which you only show up to some groups might be hard on you and the rest of the group but if that's the decision you are most comfortable with right now that is absolutely okay. Do loop other members in. You have been facilitating the group for quite a bit so your contribution to the group is very important and it will be a big change for everyone to get use to changing facilitators and you taking less of a lead role.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:11 PM on March 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I really understand why peer led groups exist but structure to maintain safety is a pretty important key component to any group.
Please don't doubt yourself over this. They have been gone 4 months, in which you likely had zero contact with them, to come back in like this is disturbing and likely purposeful.
I do think that trying to do a halfway thing in which you only show up to some groups might be hard on you and the rest of the group but if that's the decision you are most comfortable with right now that is absolutely okay. Do loop other members in. You have been facilitating the group for quite a bit so your contribution to the group is very important and it will be a big change for everyone to get use to changing facilitators and you taking less of a lead role.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:11 PM on March 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’m wondering though if perhaps they are just an extremely difficult person who occasionally engages in murky borderline terrible behavior without it being so black and white.
I can empathise so much with this line of thinking, but it's hurting you and leading you astray. Some time ago, I read something written by a therapist who specialises in dealing with people who have had severe trauma and they said that nearly all their clients said some version of "I don't know if I have the right to claim the title of having been abused, x and y people have it so much worse than me."
So, here's the thing. You are not your friend's therapist or judge. You don't have to "prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt"
It is, however, your job to look after yourself.
You have the duty to listen to that inner child who is telling you "please help me this person hurt me, and I don't want them to hurt me again."
That hurt child is you and you can help them.
You can help by listening carefully to what they are saying.
You can help by trusting that they're telling you the truth.
You can help by believing them about their own feelings.
Would you tell a hurt child "the person that hurt you, didn't really mean it, so the fact that you are hurt doesn't matter."?
Would you say "Give them another chance, they didn't understand what they were doing"?
Your friend upsets you so much that you are devoting hours thinking about them, asking questions about them, and every moment you allow them into your head is hurting you. You are not respecting your own boundaries.
Even if this isn't * really * abuse, this friendship is hurting you, and you need to end it.
Put whatever label you like on it, the way this person is behaving is unacceptable. For whatever reason, you will be better off without them. Even if they are totally innocent and well meaning.
They are an adult and can find their own way to help that doesn't involve you.
You deserve peace of mind, and to be around people who make you feel relaxed and at ease.
posted by Zumbador at 8:52 PM on March 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I can empathise so much with this line of thinking, but it's hurting you and leading you astray. Some time ago, I read something written by a therapist who specialises in dealing with people who have had severe trauma and they said that nearly all their clients said some version of "I don't know if I have the right to claim the title of having been abused, x and y people have it so much worse than me."
So, here's the thing. You are not your friend's therapist or judge. You don't have to "prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt"
It is, however, your job to look after yourself.
You have the duty to listen to that inner child who is telling you "please help me this person hurt me, and I don't want them to hurt me again."
That hurt child is you and you can help them.
You can help by listening carefully to what they are saying.
You can help by trusting that they're telling you the truth.
You can help by believing them about their own feelings.
Would you tell a hurt child "the person that hurt you, didn't really mean it, so the fact that you are hurt doesn't matter."?
Would you say "Give them another chance, they didn't understand what they were doing"?
Your friend upsets you so much that you are devoting hours thinking about them, asking questions about them, and every moment you allow them into your head is hurting you. You are not respecting your own boundaries.
Even if this isn't * really * abuse, this friendship is hurting you, and you need to end it.
Put whatever label you like on it, the way this person is behaving is unacceptable. For whatever reason, you will be better off without them. Even if they are totally innocent and well meaning.
They are an adult and can find their own way to help that doesn't involve you.
You deserve peace of mind, and to be around people who make you feel relaxed and at ease.
posted by Zumbador at 8:52 PM on March 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I’m wondering though if perhaps they are just an extremely difficult person who occasionally engages in murky borderline terrible behavior without it being so black and white.
You’d be hard pressed to find anyone who is unequivocally terrible with no redeeming behavior or qualities. It’s absolutely reasonable to say, “I don’t feel safe with this extremely difficult person who occasionally engages in murky borderline terrible behavior, and I don’t want them in my life.” When you start qualifying, “well, they’re not bad all the time… some of the behaviors that bother me wouldn’t be so bad if they’d just stop the really awful stuff… maybe I’m being unfair…” you sound like someone trying to make sense of an abusive relationship. You’re trying to talk yourself out of your feelings and intuition because your insides are positively screaming “this person is NOT our friend, is NOT safe for us!”
I don’t know if anyone at the organization that runs the group can offer backup, but it’s worth trying to have a conversation if there’s any kind of centralized organization. Yours is not the only group your former friend can attend. Whether you’re leading or simply participating, they should not be in the room. Sometimes when we do harm, we incur consequences such as not having the same right to attend an open group as another member of the public. Like, yeah, a person off the street has a right to show up and get support. Your ex friend doesn’t. Because attending your group would do further harm to you, and they don’t have the right (morally at least) to do that. If there’s an organization that coordinates this group, please reach out to them.
posted by theotherdurassister at 10:35 PM on March 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
You’d be hard pressed to find anyone who is unequivocally terrible with no redeeming behavior or qualities. It’s absolutely reasonable to say, “I don’t feel safe with this extremely difficult person who occasionally engages in murky borderline terrible behavior, and I don’t want them in my life.” When you start qualifying, “well, they’re not bad all the time… some of the behaviors that bother me wouldn’t be so bad if they’d just stop the really awful stuff… maybe I’m being unfair…” you sound like someone trying to make sense of an abusive relationship. You’re trying to talk yourself out of your feelings and intuition because your insides are positively screaming “this person is NOT our friend, is NOT safe for us!”
I don’t know if anyone at the organization that runs the group can offer backup, but it’s worth trying to have a conversation if there’s any kind of centralized organization. Yours is not the only group your former friend can attend. Whether you’re leading or simply participating, they should not be in the room. Sometimes when we do harm, we incur consequences such as not having the same right to attend an open group as another member of the public. Like, yeah, a person off the street has a right to show up and get support. Your ex friend doesn’t. Because attending your group would do further harm to you, and they don’t have the right (morally at least) to do that. If there’s an organization that coordinates this group, please reach out to them.
posted by theotherdurassister at 10:35 PM on March 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
It may not be beneficial to you or anyone to try to parse if this person's behavior is 'abusive' or not. I suggest focusing on the fact that you have the choice whether or not to interact with this person regardless of reason, and also what is most appropriate and best for this group - even if you are not an official 'authority' over the group. I would frame it is the reality that it would be disruptive to the group to have both of you there and consider recruiting others to that reality. Good luck, this sounds extremely fraught.
posted by latkes at 11:05 AM on March 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by latkes at 11:05 AM on March 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
If the situation is as you've described, they do not come off well (accusing someone of gaslighting over silverware??). So I would share this with the group and then advocate for making the group be semi-private. Of course, if everyone disagrees with you that might be tough, but I wouldn't assume that just because your a man and they are a woman will automatically make everyone side against you - it sounds like you are far more central to this group than she is, and likely more trusted. Good luck.
posted by coffeecat at 1:53 PM on March 11, 2022 [1 favorite]