Keeping the home fires burning... and also cool
February 18, 2022 8:04 AM
My 27 year old furnace is likely not going to make it into another winter (possibly not another summer) so it will need to be replaced. I'd like some advice.
I'm in the market for a new furnace but I am pretty ignorant about my options. I live in a Canadian place with snowy winters with humid summers in an 100 year house with inconsistent insulation with 3 people & a winter-loving dog (one person has dust allergies), I'd like to balance efficiency with environmental impacts and reliability, and I've been budgeting in the $6000 Canadian range. The old furnace is a forced air and there is air conditioning (which is more to remove the humidity then cooling).
What are my options? What are some questions I should be aware of when I talk to installers? What are warning signs when I talk to people?
Caveats:
The spot where the existing furnace is not ideal. One of the previous owners decided to be put into sort of a box with a door. It is tight with poor ventilation. So I will likely have to dismantle that. So size is a concern.
I'm not a millionaire - I don't mind taking on some debt, say in the 10 or 12 grand range, if the outcome sees real year to year savings and/or environmental benefits. While I intend to live here for the foreseeable future I would like to see real and tangible gains over a relatively short period if I invest in a technology over my budgeted amount.
I'm in Canada - I'm glad you might have a revolutionary technology that might depend on an extraordinary infrastructure wherever you are but if I can't find it or it is cost prohibitive here, while I'm glad it exists, I'd appreciate it if you maybe not comment. This needs to be about Canada, specifically about Southern Ontario outside of the GTA. But if you are passionate about a technology that might help me that is available here I would love to hear about it.
If you are aware of Canadian subsidies or programmes for retrofits that might help me out, let me know. If you have something like that in the country you live in that isn't Canada and you're excited about it? I'm really happy for you but please don't let me know.
I'm in the market for a new furnace but I am pretty ignorant about my options. I live in a Canadian place with snowy winters with humid summers in an 100 year house with inconsistent insulation with 3 people & a winter-loving dog (one person has dust allergies), I'd like to balance efficiency with environmental impacts and reliability, and I've been budgeting in the $6000 Canadian range. The old furnace is a forced air and there is air conditioning (which is more to remove the humidity then cooling).
What are my options? What are some questions I should be aware of when I talk to installers? What are warning signs when I talk to people?
Caveats:
The spot where the existing furnace is not ideal. One of the previous owners decided to be put into sort of a box with a door. It is tight with poor ventilation. So I will likely have to dismantle that. So size is a concern.
I'm not a millionaire - I don't mind taking on some debt, say in the 10 or 12 grand range, if the outcome sees real year to year savings and/or environmental benefits. While I intend to live here for the foreseeable future I would like to see real and tangible gains over a relatively short period if I invest in a technology over my budgeted amount.
I'm in Canada - I'm glad you might have a revolutionary technology that might depend on an extraordinary infrastructure wherever you are but if I can't find it or it is cost prohibitive here, while I'm glad it exists, I'd appreciate it if you maybe not comment. This needs to be about Canada, specifically about Southern Ontario outside of the GTA. But if you are passionate about a technology that might help me that is available here I would love to hear about it.
If you are aware of Canadian subsidies or programmes for retrofits that might help me out, let me know. If you have something like that in the country you live in that isn't Canada and you're excited about it? I'm really happy for you but please don't let me know.
If you have the money, a combined A/C heat pump is close to your price range, depending on the size of your house. You may consider it. Really depends on how much you use it. You''ll have to find your own payback period. Just get your regular electric bill, how much they say it will save, and you divide by the total cost. Most will be measured in the many years timeframe.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:15 AM on February 18, 2022
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:15 AM on February 18, 2022
Current furnace is a forced air electric. House is relatively small - probably under 1100 square feet, probably closer to 900, with a basement & attic. I was assuming I will have to replace both AC & furnace but again I haven't confirmed this but I am budgeting with that in mind.
AC is primarily used to remove humidity, which can be quite bad in Southern Ontario, from the house but we prefer it under 26 Celsius. As climate change alters the temperature I assume it will be used more.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:29 AM on February 18, 2022
AC is primarily used to remove humidity, which can be quite bad in Southern Ontario, from the house but we prefer it under 26 Celsius. As climate change alters the temperature I assume it will be used more.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:29 AM on February 18, 2022
I'm not in the GTA, but Southwestern Ontario.
I don't have any advice specifically about which furnace. Other than just get one. We went through a bunch of research a few years ago, and it came down to forced air furnaces all relatively same, all relatively same price.
I know not much help, BUT I do know that furnaces are in very short supply right now. From a couple of sources, but most recently a friend had to wait 4 weeks for delivery when hers died. So if you think yours is ready to expire, its probably best not to wait for the day it does, and get your order in now.
posted by Ftsqg at 8:30 AM on February 18, 2022
I don't have any advice specifically about which furnace. Other than just get one. We went through a bunch of research a few years ago, and it came down to forced air furnaces all relatively same, all relatively same price.
I know not much help, BUT I do know that furnaces are in very short supply right now. From a couple of sources, but most recently a friend had to wait 4 weeks for delivery when hers died. So if you think yours is ready to expire, its probably best not to wait for the day it does, and get your order in now.
posted by Ftsqg at 8:30 AM on February 18, 2022
its probably best not to wait for the day it does, and get your order in now.
Thanks - that is good to know and will definitely keep that in mind. I just had some minor repairs done today which will allow it to limp along for another couple months. But yes ultimately the goal is to replace it in the next few months before the worst of summer sets in.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:36 AM on February 18, 2022
Thanks - that is good to know and will definitely keep that in mind. I just had some minor repairs done today which will allow it to limp along for another couple months. But yes ultimately the goal is to replace it in the next few months before the worst of summer sets in.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:36 AM on February 18, 2022
If your house is only 1100 sq ft, and you can budget $6k for a furnace replacement, you should budget approximately the same amount for insulation upgrades. The payback period for that will be measured in months to a year or two. If you thought your furnace/AC would last 2 more years, I'd recommend to do it first, and you may be able to downsize your AC. But you know your system better than me.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:59 AM on February 18, 2022
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:59 AM on February 18, 2022
Like many old houses, mine is a bit complex with various improvements made at various times. Some good, some bad. The bad or aging "improvements" have been triaged and dealt with as funds permit. Unfortunately, the heating / cooling system are top of the list currently.
Just so we don't get derailed too much from my main question let's keep it focused on Furnaces and HVAC systems. I am aware of the improvements that can be had from insulation and new windows. For the sake of my specific question, all things being equal, assume that concerns other than heating / cooling system are being taken care.
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:20 AM on February 18, 2022
Just so we don't get derailed too much from my main question let's keep it focused on Furnaces and HVAC systems. I am aware of the improvements that can be had from insulation and new windows. For the sake of my specific question, all things being equal, assume that concerns other than heating / cooling system are being taken care.
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:20 AM on February 18, 2022
It may be worth going to a forced air heat pump system either air/air (which will require resistance heating auxiliary built in for Ontario) or ground/air. Do you have space around your house for a ground source trench? You mention Southern Ontario outside the GTA which makes me think you might.
How badly insulated is your house? This can affect whether a heat pump system will do the job on a really cold day and also be an area where you might want to invest some of your money.
You'd probably need a 2.5 ton to 3 ton (32000 to 36000 BTU) system.
You'll save on electricity but an air source heat pump will be considerably more expensive up front. (a ground source will save even more electricity but cost *a lot* more)
I would suggest you have a look at the Canada Greener Homes Grant since they have funding available to do a full home energy audit for you and make recommendations based on your specific circumstances and exact location, there is also funding for up to $5,000 per house to make improvements, including insulation upgrades and heat pumps potentially.
You may have to wait a while though since they've had a lot of applications.
posted by atrazine at 10:22 AM on February 18, 2022
How badly insulated is your house? This can affect whether a heat pump system will do the job on a really cold day and also be an area where you might want to invest some of your money.
You'd probably need a 2.5 ton to 3 ton (32000 to 36000 BTU) system.
You'll save on electricity but an air source heat pump will be considerably more expensive up front. (a ground source will save even more electricity but cost *a lot* more)
I would suggest you have a look at the Canada Greener Homes Grant since they have funding available to do a full home energy audit for you and make recommendations based on your specific circumstances and exact location, there is also funding for up to $5,000 per house to make improvements, including insulation upgrades and heat pumps potentially.
You may have to wait a while though since they've had a lot of applications.
posted by atrazine at 10:22 AM on February 18, 2022
My upstate New York house is almost exactly the same size as yours, and about 1 degree of latitude south of the GTA, and my ground source (or geothermal) heat pump was some of the best money I have ever spent. A large part of the cost for our system was the cost of digging a new well for the loop, which you may or may not have to do, so I would encourage you to follow atrazine’s advice above and get an evaluation to see what the design and funding options for your property will be. Also, a bonus of these systems is that you can dump excess heat in the hot water tank. I love not having to stress about a second hot bath on a lazy Sunday.
posted by minervous at 10:34 AM on February 18, 2022
posted by minervous at 10:34 AM on February 18, 2022
Seeing how it's an election year in Ontario there may be more government incentives offered in the summer/fall. One of the first things that Ford did when elected was to cancel the GreenOn grants that gave money for energy efficient retrofits. So whatever you decide it might be good to wait until closer to the summer to pull the trigger on anything as an extra government grant might make something like a heat pump or in floor heating better fit your budget.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:48 PM on February 18, 2022
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:48 PM on February 18, 2022
You probably want an air source heat pump with an air handler that will attach to your existing ducts. The other option would be a couple mini split units that have their own indoor air handlers, but this may or may not work for your house layout.
There are really only two brands that make heat pumps that work in the relevant temperatures in Canada: Mitsubishi (fancier and more expensive) and Fujitsu (a little cheaper). Many people in similar and colder climates have used these heat pumps for years. You can expect to use 1/2 to 1/3 of the electricity you are currently using for heating, probably closer to 1/3 in your climate. Expect to spend probably somewhere very roughly around $15k, but you can get a federal grant for $5000. Definitely apply now as the program is running very slowly and it can take months just to get started.
With a good heat air source heat pump, you can get more efficient heating down to -20C or below, with a backup resistance heating coil in the unit that operates when it is too cold. I would not recommend bothering with a ground-source heat pump as this will be far outside your budget (and frankly you'll never recoup the higher up front cost compared to an air source unit).
The bonus is an air source heat pump will also function as a very good air conditioner in the summer, better than whatever you might purchase separately. With the federal grant available, I think this is a no brainer. You can get a cheap electric furnace for a few thousand bucks installed, but you spend a lot more over the years on heat.
We installed a 4-tonne Fujistu to replace an existing gas furnace. It turned out that the 4-tonne unit was barely more than the 3-tonne, so it made sense to oversize a little bit to get a bit more efficiency and a bit faster warm up in the morning (which means we can let the temperature go lower overnight). The control we have is a bit annoying and it's a bit frustrating that the resistance backup heat comes on with this unit at -20C, which is not the case for the mini-split units or Mitsubishi units, but it is otherwise fine.
posted by ssg at 2:10 PM on February 18, 2022
There are really only two brands that make heat pumps that work in the relevant temperatures in Canada: Mitsubishi (fancier and more expensive) and Fujitsu (a little cheaper). Many people in similar and colder climates have used these heat pumps for years. You can expect to use 1/2 to 1/3 of the electricity you are currently using for heating, probably closer to 1/3 in your climate. Expect to spend probably somewhere very roughly around $15k, but you can get a federal grant for $5000. Definitely apply now as the program is running very slowly and it can take months just to get started.
With a good heat air source heat pump, you can get more efficient heating down to -20C or below, with a backup resistance heating coil in the unit that operates when it is too cold. I would not recommend bothering with a ground-source heat pump as this will be far outside your budget (and frankly you'll never recoup the higher up front cost compared to an air source unit).
The bonus is an air source heat pump will also function as a very good air conditioner in the summer, better than whatever you might purchase separately. With the federal grant available, I think this is a no brainer. You can get a cheap electric furnace for a few thousand bucks installed, but you spend a lot more over the years on heat.
We installed a 4-tonne Fujistu to replace an existing gas furnace. It turned out that the 4-tonne unit was barely more than the 3-tonne, so it made sense to oversize a little bit to get a bit more efficiency and a bit faster warm up in the morning (which means we can let the temperature go lower overnight). The control we have is a bit annoying and it's a bit frustrating that the resistance backup heat comes on with this unit at -20C, which is not the case for the mini-split units or Mitsubishi units, but it is otherwise fine.
posted by ssg at 2:10 PM on February 18, 2022
I think ssg has it. I'm in Vermont, so not as familiar with Canadian costs and incentives, but from the perspective of generally available and forward thinking systems the air to air heat pump is your choice if you can afford it with any available incentives.
posted by meinvt at 2:25 PM on February 18, 2022
posted by meinvt at 2:25 PM on February 18, 2022
« Older Time keeps on slipping slipping slipping, on my... | Need to re-energize brain. How? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
Warning signs: most will want to replace/combine both your furnace and A/C which you can do but you need to find out if it is actually necessary. A/Cs are expensive, furnaces are not.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:12 AM on February 18, 2022