Help me have a not awful urban NJ garden next summer.
September 12, 2021 2:06 PM Subscribe
We have overgrowing weeds in our small urban garden space. How do I deal with the weeds in a safe, non-toxic way so I can grow vegetables next summer?
We have a small paved backyard with a 2 foot wide perimeter of slightly raised topsoil (about 1 foot deep), sort of like this but no turf.
We made the gardening space 5 years ago, added fresh topsoil, and I grew many awesome tomato plants, tons of mint, so-so peppers, and everything else failed miserably (zucchini, cucumbers, peas, strawberries, raspberries, various herbs). We had no weeds that first summer. I did zero gardening research, just planted whatever sounded fun to plant.
We left for 4 years and came back to weeds taller than my head. Cut them down, removed as much roots as we could, but they're coming back, obviously.
How do I get rid of the weeds with the roots when it's time to plant? Are those "non toxic" weed killers really non toxic enough to grow veggies and herbs? Should I do anything about the weeds now, or let them grow till next spring?
What would grow well in partial shade in NJ with soil only 1 foot deep? I want to grow as much edible stuff as possible, don't necessarily care what it is.
We have a small paved backyard with a 2 foot wide perimeter of slightly raised topsoil (about 1 foot deep), sort of like this but no turf.
We made the gardening space 5 years ago, added fresh topsoil, and I grew many awesome tomato plants, tons of mint, so-so peppers, and everything else failed miserably (zucchini, cucumbers, peas, strawberries, raspberries, various herbs). We had no weeds that first summer. I did zero gardening research, just planted whatever sounded fun to plant.
We left for 4 years and came back to weeds taller than my head. Cut them down, removed as much roots as we could, but they're coming back, obviously.
How do I get rid of the weeds with the roots when it's time to plant? Are those "non toxic" weed killers really non toxic enough to grow veggies and herbs? Should I do anything about the weeds now, or let them grow till next spring?
What would grow well in partial shade in NJ with soil only 1 foot deep? I want to grow as much edible stuff as possible, don't necessarily care what it is.
In the Northern US I’ve had good luck cutting down as much as I could on top of the surface, then spreading black garbage bags down weighed down by bricks in the late fall/early winter. I left it on top all winter until early spring and it really cut down on the weeds. During the summer try to pick weeds as you see them.
posted by Bunglegirl at 2:29 PM on September 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Bunglegirl at 2:29 PM on September 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
YouTube has been serving me up some homesteader vlogs lately (perhaps because I like watching those crazy van life kids) and so this is how I have recently learned that there is a thing called "no dig" gardening. Similar to the method that Bunglegirl mentioned above, except with sheets of cardboard instead of garbage bags.
Here is a link to a YouTube video explaining how it works.
posted by janepanic at 2:54 PM on September 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
Here is a link to a YouTube video explaining how it works.
posted by janepanic at 2:54 PM on September 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I have no idea what weeds we have, a ton of different kind! And I'm ok with growing edible weeds, especially if they will thrive, I just need recommendations on what to grow here and don't want to eat bitter herbs just because they're technically "edible." I think sunchokes are "weeds?" We love those!
I heard about the garbage bag trick... but if plants grow through concrete I always imagined them just growing out the side of the trash bags. Has anyone here actually tried it?
Alright, no more thread sitting.
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 3:47 PM on September 12, 2021
I heard about the garbage bag trick... but if plants grow through concrete I always imagined them just growing out the side of the trash bags. Has anyone here actually tried it?
Alright, no more thread sitting.
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 3:47 PM on September 12, 2021
The way most food-growers deal with this non-destructively (because soil is a microbiome and yes you will destroy it with weed-killers of any kind, including boiling water) is to cover the weeds with something the sun can't get through, put some dirt on top of that - not necessarily a ton, even, just 6 inches or so will do - and then grow something in that dirt. You might be close enough to your first frost that you don't need to stress too hard about getting anything going, you could just use bulk lettuce mix and eat that until the frost gets it.
Here's the secret: nothing "gets rid" of weeds unless you want to get rid of the possibility of all plants. Yes, plants will grow through just about anything given enough time. That is a basic fact of the world. Yes they will grow around plastic bags. You will have to pull them if you don't want them there, but at least you have rebooted the area so that it's not ALL weeds.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:55 PM on September 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Here's the secret: nothing "gets rid" of weeds unless you want to get rid of the possibility of all plants. Yes, plants will grow through just about anything given enough time. That is a basic fact of the world. Yes they will grow around plastic bags. You will have to pull them if you don't want them there, but at least you have rebooted the area so that it's not ALL weeds.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:55 PM on September 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Use black plastic sheeting rather than bags to cover the whole area until spring.
Meanwhile, collect newspapers or similar paper . Come springtime, remove the plastic (which has helpfully also warmed the soil temperature a wee bit.) Use the newspaper as weed control throughout the growing season.
posted by mightshould at 3:58 PM on September 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, collect newspapers or similar paper . Come springtime, remove the plastic (which has helpfully also warmed the soil temperature a wee bit.) Use the newspaper as weed control throughout the growing season.
posted by mightshould at 3:58 PM on September 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
I keyboard-fumbled and posted before I was done, but in conclusion: put down cardboard and put some dirt on it. Get a pack of mixed lettuce seeds (more than a packet, maybe start with 1oz), sprinkle and water regularly. Let them take up most of the space so weeds won't. Let the freeze get them and just dig them into the soil for the winter to compost. Plant veg in the spring.
Pick weeds when you see weeds, routinely, and then you won't have a lot of weeds. They will always be trying. You will get better in time at differentiating seedlings, weeds, and volunteers from the lettuce.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:00 PM on September 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Pick weeds when you see weeds, routinely, and then you won't have a lot of weeds. They will always be trying. You will get better in time at differentiating seedlings, weeds, and volunteers from the lettuce.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:00 PM on September 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
I feel like there's a disconnect here. Sure, smother your current weeds with cardboard. It's good to get a fresh(er) start. I don't personally like putting plastics in the soil of my veggie garden on purpose, because I'm eating that.
Various plowing/turning/tilling methods are best avoided, as that favors weedy species that are adapted to thrive in recently disturbed soils.
But the main thing is; you control weeds by weeding, by mechanically, physically pulling them out, repeatedly, especially in the early part of the season.
There's no silver bullet but you're talking about a relatively small area of raised beds. Buy whatever hand weeding tool looks good and practice using it early and often.
You'll need to learn some of the most common weeds if you want to eat them or fight them more effectively.
Lambs quarters and purslane are common edible garden weeds, but there are others too.
Finally: you absolutely want to chop them down ASAP even if you do nothing else, because they are setting seed, and large mare's tail or whatever can easily release tens of thousands of seeds if you let it, and they can persist in the seedbank for decades.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:34 PM on September 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
Various plowing/turning/tilling methods are best avoided, as that favors weedy species that are adapted to thrive in recently disturbed soils.
But the main thing is; you control weeds by weeding, by mechanically, physically pulling them out, repeatedly, especially in the early part of the season.
There's no silver bullet but you're talking about a relatively small area of raised beds. Buy whatever hand weeding tool looks good and practice using it early and often.
You'll need to learn some of the most common weeds if you want to eat them or fight them more effectively.
Lambs quarters and purslane are common edible garden weeds, but there are others too.
Finally: you absolutely want to chop them down ASAP even if you do nothing else, because they are setting seed, and large mare's tail or whatever can easily release tens of thousands of seeds if you let it, and they can persist in the seedbank for decades.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:34 PM on September 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Ok I think I understand about the weeds, I am just hoping to start over because every. single. square. inch has several little weeds growing out of it, it's not like there's a weed here and there that needs to be plucked.
Any recommendations for what to plant next season that grows well with shallow roots and doesn't need full sun in the northeast US?
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 5:24 PM on September 12, 2021
Any recommendations for what to plant next season that grows well with shallow roots and doesn't need full sun in the northeast US?
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 5:24 PM on September 12, 2021
For a shady area leafy greens, salad lettuces, chard and kale will do best, Asian cut and come again like mizuna, herbs too (the abundant mint is a clue), maybe some carrots and radishes. You might get basil but if you are team coriander, cilantro should do well in summer too. Anything which fruits or develops a root is not going to get enough sunlight to convert to those more energy hungry stages of growth. Though you could try some cabbage or brocolli? Maybe some edible flowers like viola and true violets?
Are there any corners of the yard that get more hours of sunlight? Make a map now and remember to place any sun hungrier plants in those niches.
Repeating a couple of strategies listed above:
Cut down weeds now before they spread more seed, try to compost them if you have space. A small hand sickle is a really satisfying tool to work with and can be used to harvest next summers abundant greenness
Black plastic / solarisation works best when the heat combined with lack of sunlight kills off the weeds. Effective sheet mulching with cardboard will also block sunlight from future weeds. You could try a lasagne bed approach (aged manure and Compost, cardboard, newspapers, topsoil) to build up your beds.
Or you could try a strawbale garden bed. (Well documented online) Again, early next spring mulch over with scrap cardboard but then place strawbales on top, add compost on the top layer to introduce healthy soil microbes and then pour urine and water over the top of the bales for several days. Effectively you'll start building new soil in situ: the carbon of the straw and nitrogen from the urine provide ideal computing conditions and the added compost brings in the microbial life needed to do the composting.
After a week or two the tops of the strawbales will be turning to soil, plant your seeds and seedlings / plugs on top and they'll grow as the bales slowly breakdown, eventually combining with the mulched weeds below to become a relatively weed free layer of soil for future years.
Also, Are there weeds in between your paving? Steam and hot water will kill them. Eg. Pour a kettle of boiled water
posted by pipstar at 6:49 PM on September 12, 2021
Are there any corners of the yard that get more hours of sunlight? Make a map now and remember to place any sun hungrier plants in those niches.
Repeating a couple of strategies listed above:
Cut down weeds now before they spread more seed, try to compost them if you have space. A small hand sickle is a really satisfying tool to work with and can be used to harvest next summers abundant greenness
Black plastic / solarisation works best when the heat combined with lack of sunlight kills off the weeds. Effective sheet mulching with cardboard will also block sunlight from future weeds. You could try a lasagne bed approach (aged manure and Compost, cardboard, newspapers, topsoil) to build up your beds.
Or you could try a strawbale garden bed. (Well documented online) Again, early next spring mulch over with scrap cardboard but then place strawbales on top, add compost on the top layer to introduce healthy soil microbes and then pour urine and water over the top of the bales for several days. Effectively you'll start building new soil in situ: the carbon of the straw and nitrogen from the urine provide ideal computing conditions and the added compost brings in the microbial life needed to do the composting.
After a week or two the tops of the strawbales will be turning to soil, plant your seeds and seedlings / plugs on top and they'll grow as the bales slowly breakdown, eventually combining with the mulched weeds below to become a relatively weed free layer of soil for future years.
Also, Are there weeds in between your paving? Steam and hot water will kill them. Eg. Pour a kettle of boiled water
posted by pipstar at 6:49 PM on September 12, 2021
I live in Philly and have a small garden area that was wildly overgrown (6 ft tall) when we moved in. We had a landscaper out who pulled/removed all the weeds and roots, then laid down a few inches of topsoil covered by mulch. She said the much does a good job preventing weeds growing, and overall it has. We still have to manually weed, but it's not out of control any more.
For growing - I've had good luck with herbs, flowers, cherry tomatoes. Our local community farm has grown beets, kale, eggplant, chard, tomatoes, cucumbers, and so many herbs.
posted by DoubleLune at 7:03 AM on September 13, 2021
For growing - I've had good luck with herbs, flowers, cherry tomatoes. Our local community farm has grown beets, kale, eggplant, chard, tomatoes, cucumbers, and so many herbs.
posted by DoubleLune at 7:03 AM on September 13, 2021
You might also consider covering the soil (cardboard is still my go-to here, but if you'd like it to look more landscapey you could cover with landscape fabric and then a layer of bark or straw mulch) and then planting in grow bags set on top instead, filled with whatever bulk soil or compost you can get delivered (you CAN use bag soil and compost, but it's the most expensive option if your city or nurseries offer bulk delivery). I really like their 7 and 10gal shorter wider pots, and you can get some of their littler 2-3-4gal bags to put in front of the bigger pots as a lower first layer, for herbs and pollinator-friendly flowers.
You will still have to weed the edges of the bed, but you will get very few other escapees if you go that route, and your grow bag soil will eventually attract some weeds but those are usually super easy to catch and cull.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:22 AM on September 13, 2021
You will still have to weed the edges of the bed, but you will get very few other escapees if you go that route, and your grow bag soil will eventually attract some weeds but those are usually super easy to catch and cull.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:22 AM on September 13, 2021
It is common for people to recommend sheet mulches for this sort of thing - I’ve done it in the past for some bad invasives. It turns out that this isn’t the best idea - plastic or other impermeable materials will harm soil structure, and carload or newspaper doesn’t compost fast or well enough either.
Linked to on Metafilter recently, the Garden Professors Blog has a lot of useful information about this but the overwhelming takeaway from actual controlled studies (as compared to the anecdata that your typical “master gardener” has learned) is that compost or wood mulches are the way to go. You start by moving down as short as you can, and then you mulch extremely thickly (like, at least 9 inches). Don’t use bark mulches - use wood chips. A thick mulch will block sunlight as well as plastic sheeting and while the most motivated weeds will grow enough on the energy in the seed to get through a few inches of mulch, the few that will get through a very thick organic mulch will be very easy to weed. Meanwhile the mulch will allow water to get through to the soil, gas and vapour exchange won’t be compromised, and soil compaction wont be made worse. (A big reason why urban waste areas are weedy is that few plants can handle the very compacted and compromised soils).
Anyways, check out that resource but after a few hours you’ll realize that the number one answer to almost any problem is mulch. Lots of it.
posted by bumpkin at 6:06 AM on September 14, 2021
Linked to on Metafilter recently, the Garden Professors Blog has a lot of useful information about this but the overwhelming takeaway from actual controlled studies (as compared to the anecdata that your typical “master gardener” has learned) is that compost or wood mulches are the way to go. You start by moving down as short as you can, and then you mulch extremely thickly (like, at least 9 inches). Don’t use bark mulches - use wood chips. A thick mulch will block sunlight as well as plastic sheeting and while the most motivated weeds will grow enough on the energy in the seed to get through a few inches of mulch, the few that will get through a very thick organic mulch will be very easy to weed. Meanwhile the mulch will allow water to get through to the soil, gas and vapour exchange won’t be compromised, and soil compaction wont be made worse. (A big reason why urban waste areas are weedy is that few plants can handle the very compacted and compromised soils).
Anyways, check out that resource but after a few hours you’ll realize that the number one answer to almost any problem is mulch. Lots of it.
posted by bumpkin at 6:06 AM on September 14, 2021
« Older Why don't we dose over the counter painkillers for... | Why am I getting angry at other people’s... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by aniola at 2:29 PM on September 12, 2021