Strategies for living with very slow internet
September 1, 2021 2:45 PM Subscribe
We're in the US and recently moved to a house with very slow AT&T DLS internet (0.5–1.6mpbs up, 0.3mbps down, 60–600ms ping, and almost no cell service). There's no hope of swapping to anything better for many months (if ever).
Can you recommend ways in which we can improve our online experience given these slow speeds, and the bloated size of most web sites? I presume much of the world is in the same boat as us, so this must be a well-trodden path.
For example:
• Are there proxies we can route through to reduce page size/complexity, strip away trackers and things, and compress the data?
• Should we configure our computer browsers to say they're mobile devices?
• Are there ways to improve Google Meet experience? Even just my voice is delayed.
We're on Macs and iPhones and use Safari on both, though I use Firefox for Google Meet (for no particular reason).
For example:
• Are there proxies we can route through to reduce page size/complexity, strip away trackers and things, and compress the data?
• Should we configure our computer browsers to say they're mobile devices?
• Are there ways to improve Google Meet experience? Even just my voice is delayed.
We're on Macs and iPhones and use Safari on both, though I use Firefox for Google Meet (for no particular reason).
You could setup a Pi Hole.
Otherwise make sure the modem isn't getting overheated, or is covered with dust.
When I had DSL, I had to reboot the thing once a week as it got sluggish after a few days uptime.
posted by nickggully at 2:58 PM on September 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Otherwise make sure the modem isn't getting overheated, or is covered with dust.
When I had DSL, I had to reboot the thing once a week as it got sluggish after a few days uptime.
posted by nickggully at 2:58 PM on September 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Almost no cell service means there's a little bit of cell service... which means it could potentially be boosted. Have you looked into that angle? I really like the guides at RV Mobile Internet; even though you're not mobile, the people who run this site are the subject matter experts on getting internet out in the middle of nowhere. If it's possible, they will know how.
posted by cgg at 2:58 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by cgg at 2:58 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Ping times on DSL will vary widely with the backhaul. It would be helpful for you to run a "traceroute" (Mac) or "tracert" (Windows) to see what RTT times are like to each hop as things get farther out from you.
If you are in a rural area with a good view of the sky, consider checking out Starlink, which isn't yet generally available, but when it is, sometime between this month and the year 2100, it is going to be an attractive solution for those who need speed and cannot survive DSL. Elon Musk is launching thousands of low earth orbit satellites, with as many as 42,000 planned in the future, and it is a technology that is ideally optimized to kill off large parts of the legacy rural DSL networks out there.
posted by jgreco at 3:00 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
If you are in a rural area with a good view of the sky, consider checking out Starlink, which isn't yet generally available, but when it is, sometime between this month and the year 2100, it is going to be an attractive solution for those who need speed and cannot survive DSL. Elon Musk is launching thousands of low earth orbit satellites, with as many as 42,000 planned in the future, and it is a technology that is ideally optimized to kill off large parts of the legacy rural DSL networks out there.
posted by jgreco at 3:00 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Adblockers help a lot, if you don't already have them installed. Tracking code is often bad and loads images, animations, etc. from other servers.
On my phone, I run with one browser that has both cookies and JavaScript turned off. Although this doesn't work with many sites, the ones that do load are extremely fast, and there is a quick way (share) to load the page in another, more featured browser. You can try that out, or install a browser extension that can toggle on/off JavaScript on specific sites.
posted by meowzilla at 3:05 PM on September 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
On my phone, I run with one browser that has both cookies and JavaScript turned off. Although this doesn't work with many sites, the ones that do load are extremely fast, and there is a quick way (share) to load the page in another, more featured browser. You can try that out, or install a browser extension that can toggle on/off JavaScript on specific sites.
posted by meowzilla at 3:05 PM on September 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Seconding you call. They’ll send someone out who will poke around, try a few things and if you are supremely lucky, there will be some improvement. If not, keep calling. Keep calling until you get that one magical tech who knows way more about the system, the lines, where the neighborhood boxes are, and knows what to do. It may take many calls. Improvement may last a few months, until, say, the earwigs in the box eat through the wiring again, and you’ll have to re-start the dance, so get that tech’s direct number if you can.
posted by sageleaf at 3:14 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by sageleaf at 3:14 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Your connection stats seem off to me. I mean I'm pretty much you, but my terrible AT&T DSL is 1.5M down and 725k up and ping isn't bad at ~40ms or so. If you are getting worse than that, I would call AT&T and have them figure out why. The company is terrible but the techs that show up to your house usually want to help. If the closest drop is too far they will tell you.
I also have a Wilson cell booster. It is not magic. It does not make the world go from dark to light. But it does help get the 1-2 bars cell service I can get if I find the exact right spot to get rebroadcast all over my house.
Starlink cannot come too soon. Mid-late 2021 here. The day I cancel AT&T I am having a party. You can register for the beta with a $99 down payment now and then the rest due when they have a slot for you. Depending on where you are, that may be weeks or it may be end of 2022.
posted by cmm at 3:16 PM on September 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I also have a Wilson cell booster. It is not magic. It does not make the world go from dark to light. But it does help get the 1-2 bars cell service I can get if I find the exact right spot to get rebroadcast all over my house.
Starlink cannot come too soon. Mid-late 2021 here. The day I cancel AT&T I am having a party. You can register for the beta with a $99 down payment now and then the rest due when they have a slot for you. Depending on where you are, that may be weeks or it may be end of 2022.
posted by cmm at 3:16 PM on September 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Oh in terms of things you can do, this may be too technical, but I also run a Mikrotik routerboard router bridged to my DSL modem and use QoS and traffic shaping. I leave a slice of bandwidth dedicated to TCP SYN and ACK traffic and DNS traffic and prioritize SIP/Zoom traffic as best I can so that loading websites or automatic update downloads do not choke out my whole connection making it unusable.
posted by cmm at 3:21 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by cmm at 3:21 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
AT&T only offers single-channel DSL.
Check if other providers in the area can get you dual-DSL, basically TWO DSL lines but bonded together into a single pipe. I did that in San Francisco. Since AT&T did not offer that, I went to Sonic and they were able to get me dual DSL for practically the same cost as AT&T's DSL plus phone.
I checked cable internet in the area and they won't get to my block for another 3 months.
And despite me being in San Francisco, the 5G Home Internet is unavailable from both Verizon and T-Mob.
And obviously, no fiber near me either. :-/
posted by kschang at 3:23 PM on September 1, 2021
Check if other providers in the area can get you dual-DSL, basically TWO DSL lines but bonded together into a single pipe. I did that in San Francisco. Since AT&T did not offer that, I went to Sonic and they were able to get me dual DSL for practically the same cost as AT&T's DSL plus phone.
I checked cable internet in the area and they won't get to my block for another 3 months.
And despite me being in San Francisco, the 5G Home Internet is unavailable from both Verizon and T-Mob.
And obviously, no fiber near me either. :-/
posted by kschang at 3:23 PM on September 1, 2021
Use Lynx as your browser, and let that guide you to Lynx-friendly and lower bandwidth sites of quality (like this one :)
posted by SaltySalticid at 3:30 PM on September 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 3:30 PM on September 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
Sign up to see when Starlink will be covering your area. You pay for a $500 satellite terminal and a reasonable monthly service fee and you'll have actual, reasonably-low-latency broadband over satellite. If you're wondering why that's never been around before, it's because the satellites were 22300 miles over the equator, not around 350 miles up and as close as directly overhead.
posted by Sunburnt at 3:44 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Sunburnt at 3:44 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Adblocking and script blocking (for example, ublock origin for ads and noscript for everything else). For non-desktop browsing, I'm not sure if Firefox Mobile on iOS makes those addons available, but they definitely exist for FF Mobile on Android.
For non-drm streaming sites like youtube or vimeo, you can use youtube-dl to download things to watch/listen to later.
Any chance your speeds are faster in off-peak hours, like the middle of the night? If you ever need to download large files, that might help.
For laptops/desktops with an ethernet port, you might consider running an ethernet cable to your router instead of using wifi for speed-sensitive things like video chat.
posted by trig at 3:45 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
For non-drm streaming sites like youtube or vimeo, you can use youtube-dl to download things to watch/listen to later.
Any chance your speeds are faster in off-peak hours, like the middle of the night? If you ever need to download large files, that might help.
For laptops/desktops with an ethernet port, you might consider running an ethernet cable to your router instead of using wifi for speed-sensitive things like video chat.
posted by trig at 3:45 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Depending on where you are there may be a provider of "fixed wireless internet" and searching for that with your location may turn something up (e.g. Starry Internet). Fixed wireless is very location dependent because it relies on microwave radio that has to work over line of sight, so if you're in a particularly hilly or tree-filled area it might not be a solution for you, and even if you're out in the high plains there just might not be anybody serving your area.
Have you checked to see if there are alternate providers other than the phone company? Have you asked the neighbors what they do for internet access? Have you complained to the FCC or your representative in Congress that the service being offered to you doesn't meet the standard of modern broadband and your provider isn't offering any performance improvements? Be the squeaky wheel!
posted by fedward at 3:54 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Have you checked to see if there are alternate providers other than the phone company? Have you asked the neighbors what they do for internet access? Have you complained to the FCC or your representative in Congress that the service being offered to you doesn't meet the standard of modern broadband and your provider isn't offering any performance improvements? Be the squeaky wheel!
posted by fedward at 3:54 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Those speeds and that latency on a DSL line are sort of strange - something feels a bit off - for example your Up and Down figures seems to be reversed, you should be able to pull down more than you're able to push up the link with most aDSL implementations, which is what we have in the US.
It's worth having someone come out and verify that you don't have multiple circuits tied together and and the provider runs a test from the MPOE (minimum point of entry), basically where your in home wiring takes over. That may help you identify whether it's really a problem with the service being at it's limit or if it's a problem in the wiring in the house, which is fixable.
Starlink was mentioned above, but the waitlist can be long - but it's worth a shot. I'd also look at an LTE/Cellular solution - as mentioned above - there are off the shelf thing you can buy, basically directional high gain antennas that you can orient towards the nearest cell tower and get much better signal.
Start with having your service provider come out and give everything a good look over - this may take being persistent, but these days the telcos have reasonably good maps as far as how close you are to their central office and what speeds you should be able to achieve - it may mean they have to do some work to get it, but they usually won't sell to you if you're not going to be able to get a minimal consistent service.
posted by iamabot at 4:11 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's worth having someone come out and verify that you don't have multiple circuits tied together and and the provider runs a test from the MPOE (minimum point of entry), basically where your in home wiring takes over. That may help you identify whether it's really a problem with the service being at it's limit or if it's a problem in the wiring in the house, which is fixable.
Starlink was mentioned above, but the waitlist can be long - but it's worth a shot. I'd also look at an LTE/Cellular solution - as mentioned above - there are off the shelf thing you can buy, basically directional high gain antennas that you can orient towards the nearest cell tower and get much better signal.
Start with having your service provider come out and give everything a good look over - this may take being persistent, but these days the telcos have reasonably good maps as far as how close you are to their central office and what speeds you should be able to achieve - it may mean they have to do some work to get it, but they usually won't sell to you if you're not going to be able to get a minimal consistent service.
posted by iamabot at 4:11 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
On the efforts to adblock/etc with pihole and a router/firewall - frankly those aren't going to make too tremendous of a difference when you have two other problems going on - highly variable latency and low throughput. They'd make a small difference but candidly your efforts are better spent in getting a bigger and more consistent connection.
For example, my pihole set up with fairly robust and aggressive ad domain blocking really only eliminates 10% of dns queries that would otherwise serve some sort of ad content to the household with 4 users.
posted by iamabot at 4:14 PM on September 1, 2021
For example, my pihole set up with fairly robust and aggressive ad domain blocking really only eliminates 10% of dns queries that would otherwise serve some sort of ad content to the household with 4 users.
posted by iamabot at 4:14 PM on September 1, 2021
Response by poster: Thanks everyone. Some notes:
0. I'm an idiot, I do have the up and down numbers reversed. Apologies for the confusion that caused.
1. We are on the waiting list for Starlink, but I'm not sure when it will arrive or if it'll even work here with the trees we have around us. We thought about Hughes satellite, but the reviews (both from people we know and on the web) are terrible, and again I'm not sure it would work. I'm holding that in reserve though.
2. I had our local WISP group out here to look at getting us line-of-sight internet, but for now we're blocked off from all their access points. There's some hope in the future that our nearest neighbors might come into view of the next one they add, and then we could beam it from them, but that wouldn't be for many months if it happens at all.
3. I'm looking into the cell booster idea. I just found we get one bar of LTE from T-Mobile if I stand on our garage roof, so there's some hope in that. The signal strength was -127db, which is bad. Everyone around here swaps to Verizon as soon as they can, so we'll get a neighbor over here and have them walk around with their phone to see if it's worth swapping. I wouldn't be opposed to spending a chunk of money on a larger booster system if it works (though I see someone said it's not a magic wand) https://www.wilsonamplifiers.com/blog/the-best-cell-phone-signal-boosters-for-rural-areas-and-farms-the-complete-guide/
4. The quality and speed of our DSL does vary a lot. Sometimes it's laughably slow, loading google search results line-by-line, and other times it seems fine. We've only lived here a week and a half, so my sample size isn't great on the ongoing quality, or the speed at different times of day. I'll start keeping a better record of that and call the local tech with what I find.
5. There's no hope of bonding a pair of lines. AT&T don't offer that here.
6. There are no other wired service providers here. It's AT&T's most basic service, or nothing.
7. Thanks for the more technical solutions. I'll look into those, too. I really hoped someone was going to say "When I lived in rural Botswana for a year we ran everything through X service and it provided a much faster web", but perhaps such a thing doesn't really exist.
posted by dunstanorchard at 4:16 PM on September 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
0. I'm an idiot, I do have the up and down numbers reversed. Apologies for the confusion that caused.
1. We are on the waiting list for Starlink, but I'm not sure when it will arrive or if it'll even work here with the trees we have around us. We thought about Hughes satellite, but the reviews (both from people we know and on the web) are terrible, and again I'm not sure it would work. I'm holding that in reserve though.
2. I had our local WISP group out here to look at getting us line-of-sight internet, but for now we're blocked off from all their access points. There's some hope in the future that our nearest neighbors might come into view of the next one they add, and then we could beam it from them, but that wouldn't be for many months if it happens at all.
3. I'm looking into the cell booster idea. I just found we get one bar of LTE from T-Mobile if I stand on our garage roof, so there's some hope in that. The signal strength was -127db, which is bad. Everyone around here swaps to Verizon as soon as they can, so we'll get a neighbor over here and have them walk around with their phone to see if it's worth swapping. I wouldn't be opposed to spending a chunk of money on a larger booster system if it works (though I see someone said it's not a magic wand) https://www.wilsonamplifiers.com/blog/the-best-cell-phone-signal-boosters-for-rural-areas-and-farms-the-complete-guide/
4. The quality and speed of our DSL does vary a lot. Sometimes it's laughably slow, loading google search results line-by-line, and other times it seems fine. We've only lived here a week and a half, so my sample size isn't great on the ongoing quality, or the speed at different times of day. I'll start keeping a better record of that and call the local tech with what I find.
5. There's no hope of bonding a pair of lines. AT&T don't offer that here.
6. There are no other wired service providers here. It's AT&T's most basic service, or nothing.
7. Thanks for the more technical solutions. I'll look into those, too. I really hoped someone was going to say "When I lived in rural Botswana for a year we ran everything through X service and it provided a much faster web", but perhaps such a thing doesn't really exist.
posted by dunstanorchard at 4:16 PM on September 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Well if you're up for something more technical - check out Unifi's Long Range LTE Client, it's in their early access store now:
https://store.ui.com/collections/early-access/products/long-range-lte-client-ea
Basically a directional high gain LTE antenna - takes a nano sim, mount it on a pole and point in the right direction, I'm considering it as a backup to our Starlink set up. Might get you there?
posted by iamabot at 4:20 PM on September 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
https://store.ui.com/collections/early-access/products/long-range-lte-client-ea
Basically a directional high gain LTE antenna - takes a nano sim, mount it on a pole and point in the right direction, I'm considering it as a backup to our Starlink set up. Might get you there?
posted by iamabot at 4:20 PM on September 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
FWIW, some previous threads about stripped-down/text-only websites:
https://ask.metafilter.com/326440/Text-only-versions-of-news-sites
https://ask.metafilter.com/285326/The-most-entertaining-low-data-websites
One of the comments in that last link points to the Opera Mini version of Opera as a browser that routs things through a cruft-stripping proxy.
posted by trig at 4:28 PM on September 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
https://ask.metafilter.com/326440/Text-only-versions-of-news-sites
https://ask.metafilter.com/285326/The-most-entertaining-low-data-websites
One of the comments in that last link points to the Opera Mini version of Opera as a browser that routs things through a cruft-stripping proxy.
posted by trig at 4:28 PM on September 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
I sympathize, I'm in a similar situation where I am with no real wired options. (Thank you, Ajit Pai you corrupt jerk.) I'm on Starlink now and it's fantastic, I hope it comes through for you eventually. Note that it requires a clear view to the north; use the mobile app and your phone's camera to visualize the clearance you need.
Definitely install ad blockers in your browsers; uBlock Origin is the best. That'll help some. If you're really aggressive (and patient) you might consider NoScript.
Another technical solution that might be a help to you is Speedify. It's a VPN service that bonds two separate Internet connections to make a combined link that's faster and more reliable. It works fairly well. Of course it requires you have a second Internet connection; even an unreliable cellular hotspot will work if it's mostly usable (say, 90% of the time). Like iamabot says there are some high gain LTE antenna options out there. Even a dedicated hotspot will work better than your cell phone.
I also agree it might be worth asking AT&T to verify the DSL service is working right. They should be able to verify the signal strength very easily. If they offer service at all it really should be a reliable 1.5Mbps with under 60ms ping to 8.8.8.8 or other well connected services.
A router with good QoS options can also help a little. I've lost touch with this tech but I'd start by looking at OpenWRT and either cake or fq_codel.
I'm not aware of any good proxies that make things better. Another option along those lines would be to prefer AMP versions of news articles, etc. But so little of the Web is AMP that it won't make a big difference. And I don't know of any tools to do that automatically.
You didn't mention this, but one killer for bad Internet is automatic system updates.
Also you should be able to watch YouTube at up to 360p when your DSL is behaving. Get to know the "Stats for Nerds" hidden panel in YouTube; it's a big help in understanding connection limits.
posted by Nelson at 5:01 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Definitely install ad blockers in your browsers; uBlock Origin is the best. That'll help some. If you're really aggressive (and patient) you might consider NoScript.
Another technical solution that might be a help to you is Speedify. It's a VPN service that bonds two separate Internet connections to make a combined link that's faster and more reliable. It works fairly well. Of course it requires you have a second Internet connection; even an unreliable cellular hotspot will work if it's mostly usable (say, 90% of the time). Like iamabot says there are some high gain LTE antenna options out there. Even a dedicated hotspot will work better than your cell phone.
I also agree it might be worth asking AT&T to verify the DSL service is working right. They should be able to verify the signal strength very easily. If they offer service at all it really should be a reliable 1.5Mbps with under 60ms ping to 8.8.8.8 or other well connected services.
A router with good QoS options can also help a little. I've lost touch with this tech but I'd start by looking at OpenWRT and either cake or fq_codel.
I'm not aware of any good proxies that make things better. Another option along those lines would be to prefer AMP versions of news articles, etc. But so little of the Web is AMP that it won't make a big difference. And I don't know of any tools to do that automatically.
You didn't mention this, but one killer for bad Internet is automatic system updates.
Also you should be able to watch YouTube at up to 360p when your DSL is behaving. Get to know the "Stats for Nerds" hidden panel in YouTube; it's a big help in understanding connection limits.
posted by Nelson at 5:01 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
I had a similar problem due to a loose connection inside the telephone company's box on the side of the house and using a cheap flat cable instead of a CAT-3 one between the modern and the phone line.
My exterior phone box has a plug inside it I can plug my modem into directly. If you have one too, you could temporarily set it up outside and you would know if your interior wiring is causing an issue.
Nowadays, most websites are compressed already. There are proxies which downscale images which is about the only improvement left, but it doesn't work with secure connections (which all websites are now) or, if it does, you need to trust the provider with your bank password... I bet there's a way to set it up on a rented server you control but that's beyond me.
posted by flimflam at 6:56 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
My exterior phone box has a plug inside it I can plug my modem into directly. If you have one too, you could temporarily set it up outside and you would know if your interior wiring is causing an issue.
Nowadays, most websites are compressed already. There are proxies which downscale images which is about the only improvement left, but it doesn't work with secure connections (which all websites are now) or, if it does, you need to trust the provider with your bank password... I bet there's a way to set it up on a rented server you control but that's beyond me.
posted by flimflam at 6:56 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Both Facebook and Twitter have mobile sites that will work much better for you with your bandwidth limitations, if those two sites are sites you use.
posted by COD at 7:19 PM on September 1, 2021
posted by COD at 7:19 PM on September 1, 2021
Turn off images on Safari for Mac - then turn on when you need them.
In Safari, go to Safari Menu, select Preferences...
Click the Advanced icon at upper left
Check the box for "Show Develop menu in the menu bar"
in the Develop menu select Disable Images
When you get the the destination you want, then select again and images will load
posted by sol at 7:23 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
In Safari, go to Safari Menu, select Preferences...
Click the Advanced icon at upper left
Check the box for "Show Develop menu in the menu bar"
in the Develop menu select Disable Images
When you get the the destination you want, then select again and images will load
posted by sol at 7:23 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Facebook and other socials have "lite" versions of their apps aimed at the non-rich world's lower bandwidth.
posted by signal at 7:49 PM on September 1, 2021
posted by signal at 7:49 PM on September 1, 2021
Response by poster: Thanks again everyone, those are all great tips. (Hi Nelson!) I appreciate you spending the time to send them.
I'll try the ad-blockers, remember the no-images trick, call AT&T and get them to come check everything, try buying a dongle to try a wired connection to the router, and look for a phone box on the outside of the building.
As I mentioned, we get no cell signal in our house, but one bar LTE from the roof of our garage. I walked the couple minutes to the end of our drive where I know I've seen some kind of cell signal, and found a spot where I got three bars LTE with 16.9Mbps download, 2.48Mbps upload, and 36ms ping. That was exciting, and makes the cell booster-route seem even more likely a solution, so I'll keep exploring that.
Oh, and I always new that YouTube was good, but my god that site is amazing for how it copes with bad connections. The quality they maintain leaves me scratching my head.
FWIW here's the result of my ping to 8.8.8.8 and then a traceroute. Those numbers don't look great.
PING 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=0 ttl=115 time=352.080 ms
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1
Request timeout for icmp_seq 2
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=3 ttl=115 time=447.086 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=4 ttl=115 time=157.847 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=5 ttl=115 time=115.160 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=6 ttl=115 time=378.308 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=7 ttl=115 time=292.215 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=8 ttl=115 time=206.925 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=9 ttl=115 time=316.564 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=10 ttl=115 time=361.920 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=11 ttl=115 time=36.832 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=12 ttl=115 time=260.741 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=13 ttl=115 time=149.888 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=14 ttl=115 time=150.014 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=15 ttl=115 time=162.014 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=16 ttl=115 time=137.890 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=17 ttl=115 time=99.927 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=18 ttl=115 time=153.535 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=19 ttl=115 time=455.371 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=20 ttl=115 time=187.769 ms
traceroute to 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
1 homeportal (192.168.1.254) 3.920 ms 5.948 ms 5.038 ms
2 76-218-216-1.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net (76.218.216.1) 225.085 ms 144.391 ms 177.528 ms
3 71.148.164.61 (71.148.164.61) 162.692 ms 133.314 ms 168.627 ms
4 71.145.1.28 (71.145.1.28) 211.246 ms 184.993 ms 284.028 ms
5 12.83.39.193 (12.83.39.193) 224.704 ms
12.83.39.197 (12.83.39.197) 140.488 ms
12.83.39.193 (12.83.39.193) 135.763 ms
6 ggr3.sffca.ip.att.net (12.122.136.17) 172.797 ms 138.008 ms 169.595 ms
7 12.255.10.244 (12.255.10.244) 83.560 ms 200.044 ms 163.506 ms
8 * 10.252.199.62 (10.252.199.62) 109.012 ms *
9 dns.google (8.8.8.8) 283.487 ms 162.088 ms 136.794 ms
p.s. thanks for the hardware tip, iamabot, I'll check it out.
posted by dunstanorchard at 9:01 PM on September 1, 2021
I'll try the ad-blockers, remember the no-images trick, call AT&T and get them to come check everything, try buying a dongle to try a wired connection to the router, and look for a phone box on the outside of the building.
As I mentioned, we get no cell signal in our house, but one bar LTE from the roof of our garage. I walked the couple minutes to the end of our drive where I know I've seen some kind of cell signal, and found a spot where I got three bars LTE with 16.9Mbps download, 2.48Mbps upload, and 36ms ping. That was exciting, and makes the cell booster-route seem even more likely a solution, so I'll keep exploring that.
Oh, and I always new that YouTube was good, but my god that site is amazing for how it copes with bad connections. The quality they maintain leaves me scratching my head.
FWIW here's the result of my ping to 8.8.8.8 and then a traceroute. Those numbers don't look great.
PING 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=0 ttl=115 time=352.080 ms
Request timeout for icmp_seq 1
Request timeout for icmp_seq 2
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=3 ttl=115 time=447.086 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=4 ttl=115 time=157.847 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=5 ttl=115 time=115.160 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=6 ttl=115 time=378.308 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=7 ttl=115 time=292.215 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=8 ttl=115 time=206.925 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=9 ttl=115 time=316.564 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=10 ttl=115 time=361.920 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=11 ttl=115 time=36.832 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=12 ttl=115 time=260.741 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=13 ttl=115 time=149.888 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=14 ttl=115 time=150.014 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=15 ttl=115 time=162.014 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=16 ttl=115 time=137.890 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=17 ttl=115 time=99.927 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=18 ttl=115 time=153.535 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=19 ttl=115 time=455.371 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=20 ttl=115 time=187.769 ms
traceroute to 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
1 homeportal (192.168.1.254) 3.920 ms 5.948 ms 5.038 ms
2 76-218-216-1.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net (76.218.216.1) 225.085 ms 144.391 ms 177.528 ms
3 71.148.164.61 (71.148.164.61) 162.692 ms 133.314 ms 168.627 ms
4 71.145.1.28 (71.145.1.28) 211.246 ms 184.993 ms 284.028 ms
5 12.83.39.193 (12.83.39.193) 224.704 ms
12.83.39.197 (12.83.39.197) 140.488 ms
12.83.39.193 (12.83.39.193) 135.763 ms
6 ggr3.sffca.ip.att.net (12.122.136.17) 172.797 ms 138.008 ms 169.595 ms
7 12.255.10.244 (12.255.10.244) 83.560 ms 200.044 ms 163.506 ms
8 * 10.252.199.62 (10.252.199.62) 109.012 ms *
9 dns.google (8.8.8.8) 283.487 ms 162.088 ms 136.794 ms
p.s. thanks for the hardware tip, iamabot, I'll check it out.
posted by dunstanorchard at 9:01 PM on September 1, 2021
As a point of comparison I'm on Comcast gigabit last-mile coax, and my pings to GDNS are Minimum = 12ms, Maximum = 17ms, Average = 13ms and my tracert is 10 hops with 20 ms being the slowest between two nodes in Ashburn, VA.
posted by glonous keming at 9:14 PM on September 1, 2021
posted by glonous keming at 9:14 PM on September 1, 2021
I prefer text-only email, and it loads faster. Some streaming services, at least Amazon Prime, allow you to download shows to watch later, so download what you can at your library, Starbucks, wherever.
For phone, I'm using Visible, 25/mo. (after you join a 'party', find one on reddit or memail me), unlimited calls, texts, data, runs on Verizon's network, support is chat only. Service has been good.
posted by theora55 at 9:18 PM on September 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
For phone, I'm using Visible, 25/mo. (after you join a 'party', find one on reddit or memail me), unlimited calls, texts, data, runs on Verizon's network, support is chat only. Service has been good.
posted by theora55 at 9:18 PM on September 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Two timeouts during a ping test, plus the occasional ping time roughly twice as long as the others, is a symptom of packet loss. So I'm now firmly on team Fix The DSL Wiring.
But if you have a spot on your property with 16Mb/s download speed available via LTE, and you don't mind spending a bit of time and money on fixing this, Ubiquiti sells outdoor-rated point-to-point wifi gear that makes it pretty easy to spread networking around a property without going all in on trenches and fibre. I'm thinking a little solar powered weather-station kind of dealie in the sweet spot, containing some kind of LTE modem linked back to the house with a couple of their Nanostation M5 units.
posted by flabdablet at 9:20 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
But if you have a spot on your property with 16Mb/s download speed available via LTE, and you don't mind spending a bit of time and money on fixing this, Ubiquiti sells outdoor-rated point-to-point wifi gear that makes it pretty easy to spread networking around a property without going all in on trenches and fibre. I'm thinking a little solar powered weather-station kind of dealie in the sweet spot, containing some kind of LTE modem linked back to the house with a couple of their Nanostation M5 units.
posted by flabdablet at 9:20 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Just wanted to add my voice to those saying something is Wrong with your ADSL, given the variability and the numbers you have shared.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:21 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:21 PM on September 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Indeed, there's definitely something wrong with that DSL link so see if you can get that fixed first.
For the LTE option, I would steer you away from signal boosters. What matters for data transmission is the signal-to-noise ratio, and a booster can't improve that - it's just a dumb amplifier, so it will boost the noise as much as the signal, plus adding its own on top.
Unless you can't get a usable signal at all, you're always better off putting an LTE modem directly in the spot where you get the signal, rather than putting a booster there and the modem somewhere else.
If you get one bar of T-mobile standing on your garage with the tiny antenna in your phone, you can probably get 3+ bars with a good directional LTE antenna pointing towards the cell tower.
There are a number of devices available that put everything you need in one weatherproof unit - directional antenna, LTE modem, and a router powered over PoE so that all you need to do is run an ethernet cable into the house.
Have a look at Mikrotik - they have a few suitable units, from the SXT (10.5dBi antenna, LTE Cat 4, $129) up to the LHGG (17dBi antenna, LTE Cat 6, $199).
posted by automatronic at 12:06 AM on September 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
For the LTE option, I would steer you away from signal boosters. What matters for data transmission is the signal-to-noise ratio, and a booster can't improve that - it's just a dumb amplifier, so it will boost the noise as much as the signal, plus adding its own on top.
Unless you can't get a usable signal at all, you're always better off putting an LTE modem directly in the spot where you get the signal, rather than putting a booster there and the modem somewhere else.
If you get one bar of T-mobile standing on your garage with the tiny antenna in your phone, you can probably get 3+ bars with a good directional LTE antenna pointing towards the cell tower.
There are a number of devices available that put everything you need in one weatherproof unit - directional antenna, LTE modem, and a router powered over PoE so that all you need to do is run an ethernet cable into the house.
Have a look at Mikrotik - they have a few suitable units, from the SXT (10.5dBi antenna, LTE Cat 4, $129) up to the LHGG (17dBi antenna, LTE Cat 6, $199).
posted by automatronic at 12:06 AM on September 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's in my experience with my bonded DSL that if I oversaturate the upload the download slows to a crawl and the ping goes crazy. But if you have virtually no load on the DSL and it still "jitters" like that there's definitely some serious noise on your line and you need serious filtering on THEIR end, not yours.
posted by kschang at 12:07 AM on September 2, 2021
posted by kschang at 12:07 AM on September 2, 2021
Yep broke/flakey DSL line. Keep doing those ping/trace and keep the results to show the techs. From good times and bad times. Then harass them until they fix it. I got a tech to spend an afternoon and the next morning climbing telephone poles re-punching and trimming up my connections and ended up with a line that could support 7-9 down.
He noted that many DSL lines where just on old telephone lines (natch) and loose punches and excess wire dangling on the other side tended to cause problems. He also re-routed my line over a newer shorter route and chopped like 1000 ft off the distance.
Then AT&T screwed me over anyways, but that's a different story.
Check as close as you can get to the MPOE to help rule out bad house wiring if you can. But don't give up until you can hit that first '2 76-218-216-1.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net (76.218.216.1) 225.085 ms 144.391 ms 177.528 ms' hop with decent and consistent times.
You have greater than 10x variation in you best/worst ping times to google.
(Ex university network person who had many DSL lines (including my own) that terminated at $WORK. I do my own loopback testing. This is something I'd tell underling NOC staff to put in a trouble ticket on a circuit number and keep on them every few hours until it was fixed. That's how I got that tech out climbing poles for so long, good tech pride.)
posted by zengargoyle at 2:20 AM on September 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
He noted that many DSL lines where just on old telephone lines (natch) and loose punches and excess wire dangling on the other side tended to cause problems. He also re-routed my line over a newer shorter route and chopped like 1000 ft off the distance.
Then AT&T screwed me over anyways, but that's a different story.
Check as close as you can get to the MPOE to help rule out bad house wiring if you can. But don't give up until you can hit that first '2 76-218-216-1.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net (76.218.216.1) 225.085 ms 144.391 ms 177.528 ms' hop with decent and consistent times.
You have greater than 10x variation in you best/worst ping times to google.
(Ex university network person who had many DSL lines (including my own) that terminated at $WORK. I do my own loopback testing. This is something I'd tell underling NOC staff to put in a trouble ticket on a circuit number and keep on them every few hours until it was fixed. That's how I got that tech out climbing poles for so long, good tech pride.)
posted by zengargoyle at 2:20 AM on September 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
2 76-218-216-1.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net (76.218.216.1) 225.085 ms 144.391 ms 177.528 ms
Yeah, broken DSL link. That should be 20ms at the most. AT&T really should be able to immediately detect and diagnose this problem. And then fix it, probably by replacing or reconnecting wiring. The problem you're up against is AT&T really doesn't care about DSL at all and would rather lose you as a customer than install fiber or fix the copper infrastructure they do have. But it's worth asking.
You'll still have limited bandwidth but at least it'll be somewhat reliable.
posted by Nelson at 6:52 AM on September 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah, broken DSL link. That should be 20ms at the most. AT&T really should be able to immediately detect and diagnose this problem. And then fix it, probably by replacing or reconnecting wiring. The problem you're up against is AT&T really doesn't care about DSL at all and would rather lose you as a customer than install fiber or fix the copper infrastructure they do have. But it's worth asking.
You'll still have limited bandwidth but at least it'll be somewhat reliable.
posted by Nelson at 6:52 AM on September 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I really hoped someone was going to say "When I lived in rural Botswana for a year we ran everything through X service and it provided a much faster web", but perhaps such a thing doesn't really exist.When I lived in rural [insert several countries with insufficient telecomm infrastructure], we had to live with it. I had to restrict my internet to things like metafilter and BBC news because they load better. Often had to load gmail as basic HTML. The only thing that made it better was satellite connections.
My friends without satellite access in many places really only had access to a small portion of the internet.
posted by quadrilaterals at 7:30 AM on September 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yep, AT&T really doesn't care about DSL at all and would rather lose you as a customer than install fiber or fix the copper infrastructure they do have..
Pretty much sums up my long story of dealing with AT&T. Bank on that they *have* to provide service at a level due to regulations and "let's be Karen" squeaky wheel and graar at them until they fix it.
Otherwise (connection wise) it's a yep we've covered StarLink and LTE and even maybe trenching solar powered fiber (or other). Harass AT&T techs until things work to spec, then hope options arise (which you seem to have a handle on).
(after the (long previous story) I let a tech just do their thing and was not satisfied and called in for another tech (the one that did awesome). The first tech had just downgraded me a service-tier and called it a day fixing nothing thinking I wouldn't notice. I did, second tech was *awesome*... but then AT&T refused to even bump me back into the service-tier I had before the problem notwithstanding that I had it before and it was fine, and now I could do even better. Took that to Twitter rage and got "let us look at that" that ended up in a big nope. "We don't support DSL at that level (even the one you have) in that area". Told them to *deleted*. Months later and AT&T DSL is a not-a-thing in my area, they bailed out of the market)
Hopefully they have to meet their offerings due to lack of options. Roll with that. Be squeaky until they do it. Don't really blame the techs until you've had a few and hit a good one. This all could also be a slowly failing piece of their infrastructure equipment that they've been avoiding having to replace. Make them!
(Sorry, AT&T trigger)
posted by zengargoyle at 8:44 AM on September 2, 2021
Pretty much sums up my long story of dealing with AT&T. Bank on that they *have* to provide service at a level due to regulations and "let's be Karen" squeaky wheel and graar at them until they fix it.
Otherwise (connection wise) it's a yep we've covered StarLink and LTE and even maybe trenching solar powered fiber (or other). Harass AT&T techs until things work to spec, then hope options arise (which you seem to have a handle on).
(after the (long previous story) I let a tech just do their thing and was not satisfied and called in for another tech (the one that did awesome). The first tech had just downgraded me a service-tier and called it a day fixing nothing thinking I wouldn't notice. I did, second tech was *awesome*... but then AT&T refused to even bump me back into the service-tier I had before the problem notwithstanding that I had it before and it was fine, and now I could do even better. Took that to Twitter rage and got "let us look at that" that ended up in a big nope. "We don't support DSL at that level (even the one you have) in that area". Told them to *deleted*. Months later and AT&T DSL is a not-a-thing in my area, they bailed out of the market)
Hopefully they have to meet their offerings due to lack of options. Roll with that. Be squeaky until they do it. Don't really blame the techs until you've had a few and hit a good one. This all could also be a slowly failing piece of their infrastructure equipment that they've been avoiding having to replace. Make them!
(Sorry, AT&T trigger)
posted by zengargoyle at 8:44 AM on September 2, 2021
Try Textise.net for a low data text only search. You can also use Lynx. For larger downloads use wget running in the background. An RSS reader application could also be of some use.
posted by metatuesday at 1:18 PM on September 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by metatuesday at 1:18 PM on September 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Opera can be made text-only, leaving your primary browser video-capable.
posted by theora55 at 1:59 PM on September 2, 2021
posted by theora55 at 1:59 PM on September 2, 2021
Depending on the age of the house, the telco wiring could be marginal for DSL. Not only the wiring from the pole or underground where the utilities are supplied to the junction box on the house, but from that junction box to wherever the modem is ultimately installed. AT&T is generally responsible for the first half, and you are responsible for anything after that junction box.
If you can get an AT&T tech out there to run some speed tests right at the junction box, and then again inside the house wherever your modem is located, that'd give you a pretty good idea if you are in fact getting the most speed that your house can get, or if upgrading your house wiring would help. They might also test whether your modem is capable of delivering your full speed, or if it needs an upgrade.
If getting a tech out is not an option, and if you're comfortable with the idea, I would bring an extension cable for power and take the modem outside to that junction box, and connect it right to the box, bypassing the house wiring. More modern (last 25 years or so) boxes usually have a short little 4-wire jumper cable (just like the phone cord that runs from the wall to your modem) with a modular plug, that connects the telco side of the box to the customer side of the box. If you unplug this and connect your device directly to it, you're bypassing your house wiring entirely and getting as close to the source as you can. (And, deactivating your house wiring while it's unplugged.)
All of which is a long way to say, if you can do that and run some tests and you get noticeably faster results, my money would be on a stray DSL filter in the mix (more below) or your house wiring is probably old and not up to handling broadband speeds. It's fine for voice (if you're still using a landline) but not good enough for high-speed data. It's fairly simple to make a run of Cat5e from the box, around the outside of the house, to wherever you're locating the modem; a fresh, new, dedicated run of good quality cable right to where you need it. (Same often applies to older coax runs, and slow cable modems, too.) If you're not comfortable doing that, the phone company can do it for a fee, or a handyman or an IT company that does telco and networking installs could do it as well. If you do it yourself, make sure to include a drip loop where the cable enters the house (Google or YouTube can illustrate this.) Good luck!
Doing IT and telecom work, I have learned to check all the way up the line for superfluous DSL filters. Especially as buildings age and things change over time, phone wiring often is a mess of splitters, splices, and weirdly daisy-chained runs. Several times, I have seen a home or office where the DSL just wasn't working or was running super slow, and it turns out that somewhere up the line, someone had installed a DSL filter that, because of how the run was wired, was affecting the modem too. If you run a speedtest at the outside junction box and get noticeably higher speeds, it may be the wiring, but it may also be due to a DSL filter that is somewhere between the junction box and the modem's location. Sometimes these filters are just that, a filter, 1 in and 1 out, meant to be in-line between a voice phone and the wall jack. Sometimes they're a splitter with a "DSL out" side and a "Phone out" side. If that splitter is upstream of the modem, and the modem is connected to the "Phone out" side, much of the frequencies used in DSL signaling are being filtered out, severely hindering performance (if it even works at all.)
posted by xedrik at 8:57 PM on September 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
If you can get an AT&T tech out there to run some speed tests right at the junction box, and then again inside the house wherever your modem is located, that'd give you a pretty good idea if you are in fact getting the most speed that your house can get, or if upgrading your house wiring would help. They might also test whether your modem is capable of delivering your full speed, or if it needs an upgrade.
If getting a tech out is not an option, and if you're comfortable with the idea, I would bring an extension cable for power and take the modem outside to that junction box, and connect it right to the box, bypassing the house wiring. More modern (last 25 years or so) boxes usually have a short little 4-wire jumper cable (just like the phone cord that runs from the wall to your modem) with a modular plug, that connects the telco side of the box to the customer side of the box. If you unplug this and connect your device directly to it, you're bypassing your house wiring entirely and getting as close to the source as you can. (And, deactivating your house wiring while it's unplugged.)
All of which is a long way to say, if you can do that and run some tests and you get noticeably faster results, my money would be on a stray DSL filter in the mix (more below) or your house wiring is probably old and not up to handling broadband speeds. It's fine for voice (if you're still using a landline) but not good enough for high-speed data. It's fairly simple to make a run of Cat5e from the box, around the outside of the house, to wherever you're locating the modem; a fresh, new, dedicated run of good quality cable right to where you need it. (Same often applies to older coax runs, and slow cable modems, too.) If you're not comfortable doing that, the phone company can do it for a fee, or a handyman or an IT company that does telco and networking installs could do it as well. If you do it yourself, make sure to include a drip loop where the cable enters the house (Google or YouTube can illustrate this.) Good luck!
Doing IT and telecom work, I have learned to check all the way up the line for superfluous DSL filters. Especially as buildings age and things change over time, phone wiring often is a mess of splitters, splices, and weirdly daisy-chained runs. Several times, I have seen a home or office where the DSL just wasn't working or was running super slow, and it turns out that somewhere up the line, someone had installed a DSL filter that, because of how the run was wired, was affecting the modem too. If you run a speedtest at the outside junction box and get noticeably higher speeds, it may be the wiring, but it may also be due to a DSL filter that is somewhere between the junction box and the modem's location. Sometimes these filters are just that, a filter, 1 in and 1 out, meant to be in-line between a voice phone and the wall jack. Sometimes they're a splitter with a "DSL out" side and a "Phone out" side. If that splitter is upstream of the modem, and the modem is connected to the "Phone out" side, much of the frequencies used in DSL signaling are being filtered out, severely hindering performance (if it even works at all.)
posted by xedrik at 8:57 PM on September 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
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posted by soylent00FF00 at 2:50 PM on September 1, 2021 [3 favorites]