how much do good schools matter, really?
July 14, 2021 8:38 AM Subscribe
We're starting to think about buying a house. Since we have kids, that means we're looking at "good" school districts, which is another way of saying not the school district we currently live in. But I don't have any firsthand experience with good schools. I went to a bad school. And yet I turned out pretty OK! So what benefits might my kids get from a good school?
I grew up in a suburban neighborhood in a small town that wasn't big enough to split its suburbs and inner city into separate school systems. As a result, despite a fairly comfortable upbringing, I went to schools that were usually classified as "inner city", with the attending problems: lots of drugs, lots of gangs, lots of teen pregnancy, lots of violence and lots more threats of violence. When I was a crossing guard in elementary school, my assigned post was the entrance of a housing project. It was a pretty common occurrence in high school for the school to be locked down because some kids had gotten in a knife fight. My district had the worst standardized test scores in the state one year. I have at least two classmates on Death Row.
But like, none of that really affected me all that much. I took AP classes, got good grades, went to a pretty good college where I was on the Dean's List, got accepted into law school, and today, if I can toot my own horn for a second, I'm one of the smartest, most intellectual people I know. I definitely seem to value liberal education more than most people. And I don't think I'm any sort of outlier. I had a bunch of school friends who went to Ivy League schools. I know a couple of doctors and Ph.D.s. One kid a couple of years ahead of me famously won an EGOT (after graduating from an Ivy League school, no less). At least on Facebook, my school friends almost unanimously seem to have grown up to be respectable suburbanites themselves, even the ones who were into drugs and stuff in school.
I do think there were some effects from growing up in that atmosphere, but to me, they seem positive. Things like being around kids from other races and social classes, which is only getting more important. And it's not like "good" schools are without problems of their own. I've heard a lot of stories about drugs and alcohol at affluent schools, just like we had drug problems at my poor school.
So my question is, what makes a good school so much better than a bad school, assuming the bad school still offers stuff like AP classes, maybe IB stuff, extracurriculars, etc. Is it more of a probability thing? And isn't growing up in a more socioeconomically homogeneous environment a drawback? Does school district really matter that much in terms of life outcomes?
I'm interested to hear people's thoughts. For the record, we're white, we can afford to buy in "good" districts, and my kids haven't shown any signs of special needs.
I grew up in a suburban neighborhood in a small town that wasn't big enough to split its suburbs and inner city into separate school systems. As a result, despite a fairly comfortable upbringing, I went to schools that were usually classified as "inner city", with the attending problems: lots of drugs, lots of gangs, lots of teen pregnancy, lots of violence and lots more threats of violence. When I was a crossing guard in elementary school, my assigned post was the entrance of a housing project. It was a pretty common occurrence in high school for the school to be locked down because some kids had gotten in a knife fight. My district had the worst standardized test scores in the state one year. I have at least two classmates on Death Row.
But like, none of that really affected me all that much. I took AP classes, got good grades, went to a pretty good college where I was on the Dean's List, got accepted into law school, and today, if I can toot my own horn for a second, I'm one of the smartest, most intellectual people I know. I definitely seem to value liberal education more than most people. And I don't think I'm any sort of outlier. I had a bunch of school friends who went to Ivy League schools. I know a couple of doctors and Ph.D.s. One kid a couple of years ahead of me famously won an EGOT (after graduating from an Ivy League school, no less). At least on Facebook, my school friends almost unanimously seem to have grown up to be respectable suburbanites themselves, even the ones who were into drugs and stuff in school.
I do think there were some effects from growing up in that atmosphere, but to me, they seem positive. Things like being around kids from other races and social classes, which is only getting more important. And it's not like "good" schools are without problems of their own. I've heard a lot of stories about drugs and alcohol at affluent schools, just like we had drug problems at my poor school.
So my question is, what makes a good school so much better than a bad school, assuming the bad school still offers stuff like AP classes, maybe IB stuff, extracurriculars, etc. Is it more of a probability thing? And isn't growing up in a more socioeconomically homogeneous environment a drawback? Does school district really matter that much in terms of life outcomes?
I'm interested to hear people's thoughts. For the record, we're white, we can afford to buy in "good" districts, and my kids haven't shown any signs of special needs.
I believe parental involvement and all that entails, including keeping on top of your kid's homework and projects, encouraging their interests, and monitoring the company they keep have a bigger impact on your kid's outcome than whether or not they go to a "good" school. You don't mention how involved your parents were in your education, but I'm going to guess that had a lot to do with you doing well and going on to college.
posted by cakelite at 8:51 AM on July 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 8:51 AM on July 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
Depends a lot on the kid. If you have a sensitive kid, and/or one who learns differently from the pack (ADD, dyslexia, processing issues, or any number of things), it could break them. My friend went to a horrible urban school because his parents were flaky artists who believed in "slumming"; he's dead now from a drug overdose.
posted by Melismata at 8:59 AM on July 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 8:59 AM on July 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
I don't know if this is true in Ohio, but in California some educational metrics (for example, rates at which students are placed on suspension) are publicly available through the state's Dept of Education website. A safe environment is more important, in my opinion, than advanced placement or "international backgammon" courses. (I mock AP and IB simply because many schools claim these attributes without having to prove it.)
Beyond that, your involvement in your child's education is the most significant determining factor in the outcome.
posted by SPrintF at 8:59 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Beyond that, your involvement in your child's education is the most significant determining factor in the outcome.
posted by SPrintF at 8:59 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
In the US, I think this is highly specific to the schools in question, unfortunately. I went to a public high school that was very good, and surprisingly diverse (white students were still the plurality, if I'm not mistaken, but just barely, at around 35% at the time). I think it is somewhat of a unicorn in this regard. This mainly had to do with the commercial tax income from the area which from my understanding funded the school. It was in a suburb, but not a particularly high-income one, and one with lots of refugees and first generation immigrants. It was a fantastic experience, with regards to the school, but I have to say I don't think I could see myself giving up the more vibrant city life that I now prefer in order to live there for the sake of the good school.
The main advantage relative to other schools I've seen / talked to friends about was the quality of teachers. All of the teachers I had in high school were significantly better educators than anyone I encountered at college, which was a big let down. I specifically remember my interactions with many of them, and still find many of them inspirational to this day. The teachers I had were also paid extremely well, so at the end, it all comes back to money. But, if I had to keep this high quality of education and completely lose the diversity aspect (as is often the decision), I don't know what I would choose - I really appreciated growing up with people from many cultures and socioeconomic backgrounds.
On another note, the school also had good facilities, but these facilities were much less important towards student outcomes than the quality of instruction, in my view. There were schools in richer suburbs with even far better facilities, but I never felt that made them any better - there is perhaps diminishing returns when it comes to further improvement of facilities beyond the main ones (some basic sports facilities, libraries, etc.).
I'm not a parent, but in my case, I would try to optimize for these some combination of these two factors - a school that at least has a decent reputation educationally (perhaps some teachers can weigh in on how to best assess this), and at least some degree of diversity (easy to assess based on publicly available stats).
posted by unid41 at 9:00 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
The main advantage relative to other schools I've seen / talked to friends about was the quality of teachers. All of the teachers I had in high school were significantly better educators than anyone I encountered at college, which was a big let down. I specifically remember my interactions with many of them, and still find many of them inspirational to this day. The teachers I had were also paid extremely well, so at the end, it all comes back to money. But, if I had to keep this high quality of education and completely lose the diversity aspect (as is often the decision), I don't know what I would choose - I really appreciated growing up with people from many cultures and socioeconomic backgrounds.
On another note, the school also had good facilities, but these facilities were much less important towards student outcomes than the quality of instruction, in my view. There were schools in richer suburbs with even far better facilities, but I never felt that made them any better - there is perhaps diminishing returns when it comes to further improvement of facilities beyond the main ones (some basic sports facilities, libraries, etc.).
I'm not a parent, but in my case, I would try to optimize for these some combination of these two factors - a school that at least has a decent reputation educationally (perhaps some teachers can weigh in on how to best assess this), and at least some degree of diversity (easy to assess based on publicly available stats).
posted by unid41 at 9:00 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
There are many qualities that make a good school, but I think a necessary one is having a sufficient cohort of academically successful students; peer effects matter. Your school had that; I think the vast majority of parents - of all socioeconomic and racial backgrounds - want that. (And just offering AP classes isn't sufficient. Our local HS offers AP classes, but the school datasheet shows that out of 32 tests taken, 31 scored 1 or 2.)
But given that peer group, the presence of kids who are not high-achieving is generally not going to harm your kids, and diversity has benefits. (At my public high school, the diversity came from the ambassadors' kids; being that made the transition to adulthood a bit harder.)
And of course, you're going to learn the most about specific schools by talking to parents (and older students) who actually attend or attended the school.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:01 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
But given that peer group, the presence of kids who are not high-achieving is generally not going to harm your kids, and diversity has benefits. (At my public high school, the diversity came from the ambassadors' kids; being that made the transition to adulthood a bit harder.)
And of course, you're going to learn the most about specific schools by talking to parents (and older students) who actually attend or attended the school.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:01 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't know what you in particular define as being a good school, but if we take greatschools.org's school rating system they look for:
Outside of all of there, there's are a lot of qualitative factors that school ranking sites tend not to consider. Is the school easy to access? Is it in a safe part of town (this varies a lot depending on where you live) not just in terms of crime but things like whether it's safe to bike to school on the roads. Is the school administration responsive to questions? Is the school in good repair? etc etc.
I agree completely that it's possible to do well in a "less good" school but at the same time, why subject you and your kid to quality of life issues if you can avoid it? You have to decide what the priorities are for you and your kids. Some people are into having top-tier sports programs. Some want an academic focus. It's not my bag but there are absolutely parents out there whose only goal is a perfect SAT score. Some areas have speciality magnet schools for arts or tech or whatever. I agree it's beneficial to attend a school that's diverse. And ultimately the biggest predictor of success for kids (in economic terms apart of winning an Emmy or something) is simply their parents' economic status. So to some extent it simply doesn't matter that much.
I think the easiest way to answer this question is just to go see a bunch of local schools in the fall. Most schools have an open house day or are willing to let you poke around for a few minutes once you have admin permission. I think it's not hard to determine whether any given school meets your requirements. In my experience, most schools are fine. But if their running track is a mess or the school is poorly kept up or whatever, it's usually not hard to see. If the school admin tells you that you can't some there at all, well, that's a data point too.
posted by GuyZero at 9:05 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
- are students improving individually over time?
- is the school improving in aggregate over time?
- are there performance gaps between disadvantaged students and non-disadvantaged students in a school?
- what are the school's standardized test scores?
Outside of all of there, there's are a lot of qualitative factors that school ranking sites tend not to consider. Is the school easy to access? Is it in a safe part of town (this varies a lot depending on where you live) not just in terms of crime but things like whether it's safe to bike to school on the roads. Is the school administration responsive to questions? Is the school in good repair? etc etc.
I agree completely that it's possible to do well in a "less good" school but at the same time, why subject you and your kid to quality of life issues if you can avoid it? You have to decide what the priorities are for you and your kids. Some people are into having top-tier sports programs. Some want an academic focus. It's not my bag but there are absolutely parents out there whose only goal is a perfect SAT score. Some areas have speciality magnet schools for arts or tech or whatever. I agree it's beneficial to attend a school that's diverse. And ultimately the biggest predictor of success for kids (in economic terms apart of winning an Emmy or something) is simply their parents' economic status. So to some extent it simply doesn't matter that much.
I think the easiest way to answer this question is just to go see a bunch of local schools in the fall. Most schools have an open house day or are willing to let you poke around for a few minutes once you have admin permission. I think it's not hard to determine whether any given school meets your requirements. In my experience, most schools are fine. But if their running track is a mess or the school is poorly kept up or whatever, it's usually not hard to see. If the school admin tells you that you can't some there at all, well, that's a data point too.
posted by GuyZero at 9:05 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
I study education and public policy, so I have strong opinions about this backed by evidence (though anyone might draw different conclusions than I do.)
"Good" schools, if you are generally defining that as places where kids get higher test scores and end up in more exclusive, competitive high schools and colleges, are schools with kids who are from affluent families in places that spend a lot on schools. Sites like "greatschools" pretend to differentiate school quality but honestly, their data is just a reflection of school body composition.
The fundamental advantage of schools with higher SES is that those kids network through the existing connections as well as preparing for tests/college access. So, if you want to hoard your privilege and give your kids even more advantages, private schools or screened public schools (the kind you test into) provide that through networking, mentoring, favors, exclusive information, etc.
But if your children live in a family with relative wealth and stability, they will do well in almost any school they attend - their out-of-school scaffolding will support them. Your personal experience is borne out in the evidence. And yes, there are social and civic advantages to more socioeconomically and racially integrated learning spaces; but their BFF might not have a Dad who will give your kid an internship.
The hoarding of educational privilege certainly exacerbates inequality in the US, but it is also the result of wealth and residential inequities.
posted by RajahKing at 9:06 AM on July 14, 2021 [63 favorites]
"Good" schools, if you are generally defining that as places where kids get higher test scores and end up in more exclusive, competitive high schools and colleges, are schools with kids who are from affluent families in places that spend a lot on schools. Sites like "greatschools" pretend to differentiate school quality but honestly, their data is just a reflection of school body composition.
The fundamental advantage of schools with higher SES is that those kids network through the existing connections as well as preparing for tests/college access. So, if you want to hoard your privilege and give your kids even more advantages, private schools or screened public schools (the kind you test into) provide that through networking, mentoring, favors, exclusive information, etc.
But if your children live in a family with relative wealth and stability, they will do well in almost any school they attend - their out-of-school scaffolding will support them. Your personal experience is borne out in the evidence. And yes, there are social and civic advantages to more socioeconomically and racially integrated learning spaces; but their BFF might not have a Dad who will give your kid an internship.
The hoarding of educational privilege certainly exacerbates inequality in the US, but it is also the result of wealth and residential inequities.
posted by RajahKing at 9:06 AM on July 14, 2021 [63 favorites]
Ohhh man!
There are a few things that people mean by good schools. Notably:
That is not to say that these things aren't important, especially the first two! What I would try and do in your search is disentangle what you mean by a school being "good". When you look at a house in a given school district, try to actually visit the school, and certainly learn about the school as much as you can. If the school is missing something you value, think about if it's possible for you to provide it outside, or not.
But above all, don't focus on whether "people say" that a school is good or bad. This is almost entirely going to be about the class and race makeup of the student body! Among other things, you'll get great deals on housing if you can tune that noise out.
posted by goingonit at 9:08 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
There are a few things that people mean by good schools. Notably:
- A physically safe environment with intact, well-maintained facilities.
- The availability of enrichment programs and classes that your child might want (arts, music, IB, model UN, foreign language, ...)
- College counsellors who are good at getting your child into their chosen university
- Affluent, white peers and parents (what people say when they mean this is "high test scores", or "committed parents", or both.)
That is not to say that these things aren't important, especially the first two! What I would try and do in your search is disentangle what you mean by a school being "good". When you look at a house in a given school district, try to actually visit the school, and certainly learn about the school as much as you can. If the school is missing something you value, think about if it's possible for you to provide it outside, or not.
But above all, don't focus on whether "people say" that a school is good or bad. This is almost entirely going to be about the class and race makeup of the student body! Among other things, you'll get great deals on housing if you can tune that noise out.
posted by goingonit at 9:08 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yeah, just echoing that if your kid has ANY special needs, a lower resource school may compound the problems.
My kid goes to a “bad” school and we really like it overall; except for when we have to interface with the school about the special needs stuff. It’s always a battle to the point where we may need to hire a lawyer in the future. I’m sympathetic because the school has their hands full of such things, but reports from our friends who have kids in perceived “good” schools are much better regarding these issues.
It’s so granular and individual that this kind of question can consume your life if you let it.
posted by furnace.heart at 9:09 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
My kid goes to a “bad” school and we really like it overall; except for when we have to interface with the school about the special needs stuff. It’s always a battle to the point where we may need to hire a lawyer in the future. I’m sympathetic because the school has their hands full of such things, but reports from our friends who have kids in perceived “good” schools are much better regarding these issues.
It’s so granular and individual that this kind of question can consume your life if you let it.
posted by furnace.heart at 9:09 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Maybe I will post again later, because I have a lot to say about this. But. If you chose a neighborhood where the school is understood to be troubled, prepare to engage. If you engage, you will make new friends, you will be successful, and your kids will flourish and be not racist. Yes, it is that "easy". But also it takes a lot of your time.
And while we went through all of this joy and still have the friends to prove it, our child still moved on to a private school during middle school because she was bullied by the son of the most wonderful activist mother out there, and no one dared take on that family and their issues.
None of us regret the years at that public school and we would all recommend.
posted by mumimor at 9:11 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
And while we went through all of this joy and still have the friends to prove it, our child still moved on to a private school during middle school because she was bullied by the son of the most wonderful activist mother out there, and no one dared take on that family and their issues.
None of us regret the years at that public school and we would all recommend.
posted by mumimor at 9:11 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
One thing to think about- how aggressive/present was tracking in your school? Did you get those opportunities because you were basically in a "good" school within a school?
And on that note- some states (like mine) don't provide resources for gifted and talented education. So any sort of supplement you got might not be present, particularly below the high school level (where honors and AP courses kick in) so you may be looking at more parental enrichment vs. what's provided by the district.
I'll note that personally we're chosing to stay put where we are (ok district next door to really good district going by test scores). The district is larger meaning more extracurricular opportunities, etc., And it's more diverse. We ended up zoned to the "good" elementary school within the district but wish we were in the "bad"(we were looking in the area where the three zones meet, basically and didn't really have a preference when we were buying) one which is the more racially and socioeconomically diverse one; it also gets extra resources through title I which is huge in a state with limited local funding. In any case, we figure if kiddo needs more enrichment, we'll provide it.
posted by damayanti at 9:12 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
And on that note- some states (like mine) don't provide resources for gifted and talented education. So any sort of supplement you got might not be present, particularly below the high school level (where honors and AP courses kick in) so you may be looking at more parental enrichment vs. what's provided by the district.
I'll note that personally we're chosing to stay put where we are (ok district next door to really good district going by test scores). The district is larger meaning more extracurricular opportunities, etc., And it's more diverse. We ended up zoned to the "good" elementary school within the district but wish we were in the "bad"(we were looking in the area where the three zones meet, basically and didn't really have a preference when we were buying) one which is the more racially and socioeconomically diverse one; it also gets extra resources through title I which is huge in a state with limited local funding. In any case, we figure if kiddo needs more enrichment, we'll provide it.
posted by damayanti at 9:12 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
So I'm with you, in that I went to a 'bad' school and turned out ok, but here's a collection of stories, since they aren't fully organized or sourced as well as journalism. I assume it's roughly transferable to any state, but am not 100% sure.
There are 2,813 public high schools in Texas. There are 2 top tier major public universities, the University of Texas and Texas A&M. Each is large, and enrolls about 5000 new freshman per year. Fine right, that's 2 per high school, especially since Texas has auto-admit of the top 10%(with caveats) of each high school's graduating class to these 2 universities.
Wrong. 75% of the high schools in Texas sent 0 students to either over the course of a study period (I think it was 5 years). So where did the UT and A&M come from? Almost 10% of the freshman class of each came from 6 highly rated schools in just 2 school districts. Each of these districts sends over 1% of their graduating class every year. So what's wrong with that? Even among college graduates, there are economic tiers. So these students who graduate out-earn the graduates of the other public universities in Texas, and as you go down the scale, it becomes by a lot.
Interesting that you mention knowing students who went into the Ivy League. You think they are roughly evenly distributed across the US, since they are among the most exclusive and can get the best from each state? Wrong again.
Illinois stats from 2012 - they haven't gotten better since The rest of the midwest is even lower.
So yeah, you can go to a subpar school and achieve, but just see how high the deck is stacked against you.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:18 AM on July 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
There are 2,813 public high schools in Texas. There are 2 top tier major public universities, the University of Texas and Texas A&M. Each is large, and enrolls about 5000 new freshman per year. Fine right, that's 2 per high school, especially since Texas has auto-admit of the top 10%(with caveats) of each high school's graduating class to these 2 universities.
Wrong. 75% of the high schools in Texas sent 0 students to either over the course of a study period (I think it was 5 years). So where did the UT and A&M come from? Almost 10% of the freshman class of each came from 6 highly rated schools in just 2 school districts. Each of these districts sends over 1% of their graduating class every year. So what's wrong with that? Even among college graduates, there are economic tiers. So these students who graduate out-earn the graduates of the other public universities in Texas, and as you go down the scale, it becomes by a lot.
Interesting that you mention knowing students who went into the Ivy League. You think they are roughly evenly distributed across the US, since they are among the most exclusive and can get the best from each state? Wrong again.
Illinois stats from 2012 - they haven't gotten better since The rest of the midwest is even lower.
So yeah, you can go to a subpar school and achieve, but just see how high the deck is stacked against you.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:18 AM on July 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
My older kiddo is starting kindergarten this coming fall, so I have been thinking a lot about this. I highly recommend listening to the 5 part podcast "Nice White Parents" that explores the history and dynamics that are impacting our public school systems--I found it really helpful in interrogating my process of choosing schools, and I think it might expand on some of the underlying issues you are getting at in classifying schools as "inner city" or former classmates as "respectable suburbanites"--to think about what that means and whether those classifications are getting at what is important to you as you think about in this choice.
As others have referenced, I think kiddos' home circumstances likely have a stronger impact than the school environment in setting them up for "success." I was talking about what I want my daughter to get out of school with a friend who is also a parent, and she had really good framing for me: We have a framework to encourage her curiosity and "academic" interests by following up with library books or documentaries or foods from other countries, and we will continue to do that once she is in school. What we can't give her on our own is a sense of community and connection to peers and the world around her, experience befriending classmates of different races or socioeconomic backgrounds, social experiences in a diverse world, concrete/non-abstract understanding about social justice and equity. Those are values that will make me actively seek out a more diverse school as a more important criteria than test scores.
It is hard because there is infinite messaging, including from my own family and people important to me, that says the "best" schools are private or suburban etc. Definitely every family needs to make the choice that works best for them and their kiddos' needs, and there are many valid school options--but it's been valuable to me to double check if that definition of "best" is actually lifting up what I value or whether it's tracking with racist and capitalist ideas of what it means to be a successful human being that I actually actively reject, and then to start from our families values in making this choice.
posted by ialwayscryatendings at 9:48 AM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
As others have referenced, I think kiddos' home circumstances likely have a stronger impact than the school environment in setting them up for "success." I was talking about what I want my daughter to get out of school with a friend who is also a parent, and she had really good framing for me: We have a framework to encourage her curiosity and "academic" interests by following up with library books or documentaries or foods from other countries, and we will continue to do that once she is in school. What we can't give her on our own is a sense of community and connection to peers and the world around her, experience befriending classmates of different races or socioeconomic backgrounds, social experiences in a diverse world, concrete/non-abstract understanding about social justice and equity. Those are values that will make me actively seek out a more diverse school as a more important criteria than test scores.
It is hard because there is infinite messaging, including from my own family and people important to me, that says the "best" schools are private or suburban etc. Definitely every family needs to make the choice that works best for them and their kiddos' needs, and there are many valid school options--but it's been valuable to me to double check if that definition of "best" is actually lifting up what I value or whether it's tracking with racist and capitalist ideas of what it means to be a successful human being that I actually actively reject, and then to start from our families values in making this choice.
posted by ialwayscryatendings at 9:48 AM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
"Bad" schools lack the resources to meet students needs and often have trouble retaining staff. These schools are sometimes staffed by folks without teaching credentials in a program like Teach for America.
"Good" schools have the resources to meet students needs and have experienced staff who can accommodate unique learning styles without being overwhelmed because they are adequately supported.
In other words, some useful indicators of good schools are staff retention, number of "master" or National Board Certified, and teachers salaries. You might find it helpful to contact the teachers' union in your area to see if it is willing to provide any information about its experiences with employers.
By the way, teachers typically do not have to be licensed to teach in private schools and generally make less. Just something to consider. Obviously, there are a variety of private schools.
posted by ASlackerPestersMums at 9:49 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
"Good" schools have the resources to meet students needs and have experienced staff who can accommodate unique learning styles without being overwhelmed because they are adequately supported.
In other words, some useful indicators of good schools are staff retention, number of "master" or National Board Certified, and teachers salaries. You might find it helpful to contact the teachers' union in your area to see if it is willing to provide any information about its experiences with employers.
By the way, teachers typically do not have to be licensed to teach in private schools and generally make less. Just something to consider. Obviously, there are a variety of private schools.
posted by ASlackerPestersMums at 9:49 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Obviously you will get a lot of different takes on this question. For me, "good" school can be divided into two different aspects.
The first aspect is simply whether it's a safe environment where fears of violence and bullying won't stress out your children and/or where a lot of distractions won't take away from their classroom learning time. Of course good teachers are also an important part of whether the school itself is a "good" one.
The second aspect is a question of pedagogy. In my mind, when it comes to pedagogy, the vast majority of schools in the US are bad. I'm a firm believer in progressive education a la Alfie Kohn and the Finish education system. I believe school should be about learning to love learning so that children can grow into becoming lifelong learners (as opposed to learning to dislike or be afraid of or stressed out by school and education and learning), and I believe it shouldn't be about performance metrics (tests and grades). I believe it shouldn't involve excessuve amounts of homework that not only causes stress and lost sleep but also comes with the opportunity cost of not being able to do other enriching, fun, healthy, and rewarding activities.
So, when you think about this topic of "good" schools, you might want to think about both of these aspects.
posted by Dansaman at 9:52 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
The first aspect is simply whether it's a safe environment where fears of violence and bullying won't stress out your children and/or where a lot of distractions won't take away from their classroom learning time. Of course good teachers are also an important part of whether the school itself is a "good" one.
The second aspect is a question of pedagogy. In my mind, when it comes to pedagogy, the vast majority of schools in the US are bad. I'm a firm believer in progressive education a la Alfie Kohn and the Finish education system. I believe school should be about learning to love learning so that children can grow into becoming lifelong learners (as opposed to learning to dislike or be afraid of or stressed out by school and education and learning), and I believe it shouldn't be about performance metrics (tests and grades). I believe it shouldn't involve excessuve amounts of homework that not only causes stress and lost sleep but also comes with the opportunity cost of not being able to do other enriching, fun, healthy, and rewarding activities.
So, when you think about this topic of "good" schools, you might want to think about both of these aspects.
posted by Dansaman at 9:52 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
There’s a lot of research on this and it shows that school quality becomes more important to child outcomes the older kids get. It matters, like, almost not at all for elementary aged kids. So called family factors are far and away the most important for young children’s learning outcomes.
Knowing that, I always suggest that families at least try out their local “crappy” public schools. You’ll get a much better sense of whether it is actually crappy by being there and if you hate it after a couple of years you can switch at that point. Your kids will be 100% totally fine, not behind in any way after just a couple of years.
posted by scantee at 10:08 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
Knowing that, I always suggest that families at least try out their local “crappy” public schools. You’ll get a much better sense of whether it is actually crappy by being there and if you hate it after a couple of years you can switch at that point. Your kids will be 100% totally fine, not behind in any way after just a couple of years.
posted by scantee at 10:08 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
one thing to consider, if you have a kid with ANY kind of disability or learning difficulty, you will benefit enormously from being in a "good" school. My son has dyslexia and access to resources to help him was critical to our school choice.
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:09 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:09 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Interesting question because what really is a good school system? I guess graduation rates, test scores, college matriculation, if you are hoping your kid goes to college. If the public schools are really bad, there are almost always private school options, for those who can afford them. So, I'd say live where you like.
I went to a lousy public suburban school (almost no kids of color, zero teachers or support staff of color). I turned out okay as well. But, as others have pointed out, that was attributable to my race, my economic status, my parents being college educated, etc.. The school was not academically focused and had limited offerings beyond the standard curriculum. There were a few good teachers, but not many. The foreign language classes were a joke--we did most of the work in English!
I got into a pretty good college. I managed, but it was clear how under-prepared I was. From critical thinking to foundational knowledge, I was quite behind my peers, many of who had gone to private schools, or first class school systems. I also had limited exposure to other faiths and cultures. I think I would have benefitted from a better, more diverse school, and wish my parents had been able to provide an educational setting I could have thrived in.
I think the idea of "Good schools" gets so much attention because it is used to pitch real estate--move to this town and pay more for your home and expensive real estate taxes..it has good schools!!! So non-parents can get invested in the concept. It really comes down to the family values, though.
posted by rhonzo at 10:21 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I went to a lousy public suburban school (almost no kids of color, zero teachers or support staff of color). I turned out okay as well. But, as others have pointed out, that was attributable to my race, my economic status, my parents being college educated, etc.. The school was not academically focused and had limited offerings beyond the standard curriculum. There were a few good teachers, but not many. The foreign language classes were a joke--we did most of the work in English!
I got into a pretty good college. I managed, but it was clear how under-prepared I was. From critical thinking to foundational knowledge, I was quite behind my peers, many of who had gone to private schools, or first class school systems. I also had limited exposure to other faiths and cultures. I think I would have benefitted from a better, more diverse school, and wish my parents had been able to provide an educational setting I could have thrived in.
I think the idea of "Good schools" gets so much attention because it is used to pitch real estate--move to this town and pay more for your home and expensive real estate taxes..it has good schools!!! So non-parents can get invested in the concept. It really comes down to the family values, though.
posted by rhonzo at 10:21 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
And for everyone who keeps singing the praises of diversity, please keep in mind that a school which is diverse but also poorly run can be very problematic. At our Wonderfully Diverse public high school, there was tons of bullying and fighting between the different groups (class as well as race). They got along fine when they were forced to be in the same classroom and write essays on how we must all love one another, but when the adults were not paying attention it was a different story. Again, if your kid is sensitive and projects as weak in any way, he/she/they are not going to care about the Good of Society, they are going to care about not being bullied at best, or beaten up at worst.
posted by Melismata at 10:30 AM on July 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 10:30 AM on July 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
I have found that on-the-ground aspects of public schools have a lot to do with the School Board, Superintendent of Schools and the principle of the particular school your child attends. If your school district is experiencing rapid cycling of superintendents and principles, it's a sign of disorganization and possible political in-fighting within school districts. If possible, attend or zoom in on school board meetings, which are typically open to the public. Since covid some school board meetings are available on their websites as videos. You will find out a lot about what is going on behind the curtain.
In my younger days with younger children I naively thought it was more about the classroom teacher and our parental input, but just like in politics, leadership matters.
posted by citygirl at 10:39 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
In my younger days with younger children I naively thought it was more about the classroom teacher and our parental input, but just like in politics, leadership matters.
posted by citygirl at 10:39 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
There are two parts: day-to-day quality of life, and long-term life goals.
A walkable neighborhood, where they can walk or bike to school would free your family from the tedium of having to drive the kids everywhere.
posted by dum spiro spero at 10:46 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
A walkable neighborhood, where they can walk or bike to school would free your family from the tedium of having to drive the kids everywhere.
posted by dum spiro spero at 10:46 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
You have an excellent understanding of this: "bad" schools are usually ones with more poor kids and kids of color, and "good" schools are the ones with more white kids, and kids from families with more resources tend to turn out okay regardless of school. Test scores tend to align pretty well with school demographics. In fact, sometimes white kids in "bad" schools test higher than white kids in "good" schools because some of the interventions and teaching approaches used in "bad" schools are actually better overall. "Good" schools often have more resources because wealthier families hoard resources for their kids through auctions, etc.
I once lived in a very competitive, highly-rated public school district in a college town and had a friend who was a teacher and then administrator in the county schools that were regarded as inferior. He had worked in both districts. His take was that the teachers in the county were better, but the college town schools had higher test scores and a better reputation for exactly the reason you'd expect: kids of college professors are more likely to have lots of enrichment at home, additional study and support materials as needed, etc.
And it's not necessarily the case that a rising tide lifts all boats. Kids from families with fewer resources don't generally do better in those "good" schools, so how good are they really, if they only have kids who do well on the SATs because those are rich white kids?
Plenty of schools with bad reputations are great places for all kids. Also, I feel strongly that white kids really benefit from being around kids who aren't like them. This is an increasingly important life skill that white kids in mostly white schools don't get.
In fact, I'd suggest that you are successful not in spite of your school background, but because of it. You learned to navigate interactions with a range of people who weren't just like you.
One of the best writers on how schools are re-segregation of US public schools is (famous for some other work!) Nikole Hannah Jones. Here is some of her writing on this important topic.
I also want to nth the recommendation for the podcast Nice White Parents and other content that goes well beyond focusing on how white parents can get the "best" education for their already-privileged white kids. Being in a walkable neighborhood where your kids can walk or bike to school or the bus stop and play after school with their classmates within the same few blocks is such a great way to build healthy movement and community and get away from the car-dependent hustle of life that can make parenting so unbearable. I'd prioritize being in a diverse, walkable neighborhood well above the ranking of the schools. This gives you so many more options for a healthy family life.
To answer your specific questions:
And isn't growing up in a more socioeconomically homogeneous environment a drawback?
Yes, absolutely. You are teaching your kids what's important when you move into an all-white neighborhood, and you might not like the lessons they learn.
Does school district really matter that much in terms of life outcomes?
Are you asking if a "good" school district is essential? Then no, absolutely not.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:56 AM on July 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
I once lived in a very competitive, highly-rated public school district in a college town and had a friend who was a teacher and then administrator in the county schools that were regarded as inferior. He had worked in both districts. His take was that the teachers in the county were better, but the college town schools had higher test scores and a better reputation for exactly the reason you'd expect: kids of college professors are more likely to have lots of enrichment at home, additional study and support materials as needed, etc.
And it's not necessarily the case that a rising tide lifts all boats. Kids from families with fewer resources don't generally do better in those "good" schools, so how good are they really, if they only have kids who do well on the SATs because those are rich white kids?
Plenty of schools with bad reputations are great places for all kids. Also, I feel strongly that white kids really benefit from being around kids who aren't like them. This is an increasingly important life skill that white kids in mostly white schools don't get.
In fact, I'd suggest that you are successful not in spite of your school background, but because of it. You learned to navigate interactions with a range of people who weren't just like you.
One of the best writers on how schools are re-segregation of US public schools is (famous for some other work!) Nikole Hannah Jones. Here is some of her writing on this important topic.
I also want to nth the recommendation for the podcast Nice White Parents and other content that goes well beyond focusing on how white parents can get the "best" education for their already-privileged white kids. Being in a walkable neighborhood where your kids can walk or bike to school or the bus stop and play after school with their classmates within the same few blocks is such a great way to build healthy movement and community and get away from the car-dependent hustle of life that can make parenting so unbearable. I'd prioritize being in a diverse, walkable neighborhood well above the ranking of the schools. This gives you so many more options for a healthy family life.
To answer your specific questions:
And isn't growing up in a more socioeconomically homogeneous environment a drawback?
Yes, absolutely. You are teaching your kids what's important when you move into an all-white neighborhood, and you might not like the lessons they learn.
Does school district really matter that much in terms of life outcomes?
Are you asking if a "good" school district is essential? Then no, absolutely not.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:56 AM on July 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
I have taught in a lot of kids of schools, and here's the thing: as in a lot of things in life, with schools it's worth aiming for the middle.
If you have options, you don't want your kid to go somewhere that is unsafe or that lacks basic resources (so like, kids don't need top-of-the-line laptops, but they do need relatively recent textbooks, balls to play with at recess, and toilet paper in the bathrooms).
But you also don't want them to go to a Good School -- the districts where people fight over houses, where every kid goes to college, where not getting into The Best College means you're a total failure at 18. The mental health issues that students at elite public schools face are hard to believe if you haven't seen them firsthand. I would not send a kid to a school with those kinds of pressures. Not even for elementary -- that stuff starts young.
For most kids, you want an okay school (fyi this is actually a good school!). You want a school where at least some parents try to come to conferences and festivals if their work schedules permit, where kids will go to college or a 2-year school or get a job depending on what suits them, where there's a mix of kids from different backgrounds who all get to learn together. If you want your kid to feel safe and learn how to be a person who lives in a society, "okay" schools have your back.
(And for the record, I'd challenge the idea that "good" schools have the best teachers. Often their teachers are just the most entrenched or politically well connected. Ask me how I know. And just nthing that "good" usually just means "white".)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 10:59 AM on July 14, 2021 [21 favorites]
If you have options, you don't want your kid to go somewhere that is unsafe or that lacks basic resources (so like, kids don't need top-of-the-line laptops, but they do need relatively recent textbooks, balls to play with at recess, and toilet paper in the bathrooms).
But you also don't want them to go to a Good School -- the districts where people fight over houses, where every kid goes to college, where not getting into The Best College means you're a total failure at 18. The mental health issues that students at elite public schools face are hard to believe if you haven't seen them firsthand. I would not send a kid to a school with those kinds of pressures. Not even for elementary -- that stuff starts young.
For most kids, you want an okay school (fyi this is actually a good school!). You want a school where at least some parents try to come to conferences and festivals if their work schedules permit, where kids will go to college or a 2-year school or get a job depending on what suits them, where there's a mix of kids from different backgrounds who all get to learn together. If you want your kid to feel safe and learn how to be a person who lives in a society, "okay" schools have your back.
(And for the record, I'd challenge the idea that "good" schools have the best teachers. Often their teachers are just the most entrenched or politically well connected. Ask me how I know. And just nthing that "good" usually just means "white".)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 10:59 AM on July 14, 2021 [21 favorites]
Yes, absolutely. You are teaching your kids what's important when you move into an all-white neighborhood, and you might not like the lessons they learn.
sorry for the double-post, but this is so so so so important and deserves to be highlighted.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 10:59 AM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
sorry for the double-post, but this is so so so so important and deserves to be highlighted.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 10:59 AM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
A lot of people have made some good points, pro and con, above, but I just wanted to highlight one thing. From my own experience, having a child highly vulnerable to social pressure, I have found that the bad versus good is absolutely impactful. If you have a kid, like me, who is kind of a social sponge, you may not want her going to the school with higher crime, or a lot of bullying. One of the things that I think is a really important factor is that more of the best schools are starting to have robust anti-bullying curriculum. Good schools also are addressing social media bullying as well, and often have zero tolerance for cyber bullying or bigotry. It can be absolutely crucial if you have a kid with disabilities, or who is overweight, queer, or just plain “weird”. Bullying affects middle and high school kids so much.
posted by corb at 11:18 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:18 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
I now live in a city with a Very Troubled School District and I am not minimizing its problems, but I also am exhausted by the amount of hand-wringing I hear (with various "scorecards" as ammunition) denigrating the perfectly decent schools with great teachers in my immediate neighborhood. You sound like you are in a position to provide your kids with plenty of support and enrichment, which is what matters.
And isn't growing up in a more socioeconomically homogeneous environment a drawback?
In my opinion, yes. I went to a "very good" public school in an upper-middle-class suburb, the kind where people pay a lot more for houses within my school catchment. I think that my education was...fine. I would have personally been happier living in a more diverse community with less entitlement toward getting things that are the "best"/newest/most impressive. People invent really petty stratifications to divide each other when pretty much everyone is white and upper-middle class. The achievements that people cite as so great about my school district are by and large either just a function of social class and money (how many students go to four-year colleges) or are things that look shiny to adults but don't directly improve the quality of instruction (the latest AV and computer equipment.)
posted by desuetude at 11:22 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
And isn't growing up in a more socioeconomically homogeneous environment a drawback?
In my opinion, yes. I went to a "very good" public school in an upper-middle-class suburb, the kind where people pay a lot more for houses within my school catchment. I think that my education was...fine. I would have personally been happier living in a more diverse community with less entitlement toward getting things that are the "best"/newest/most impressive. People invent really petty stratifications to divide each other when pretty much everyone is white and upper-middle class. The achievements that people cite as so great about my school district are by and large either just a function of social class and money (how many students go to four-year colleges) or are things that look shiny to adults but don't directly improve the quality of instruction (the latest AV and computer equipment.)
posted by desuetude at 11:22 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't think you went to a bad school. The fact that you were able to take AP classes (and presumably pass AP tests) indicates to me that you went to a good school. The fact that the school was economically, socially, and racially diverse contributed to the goodness. That diversity didn't make it bad, despite what you see on TV.
There are definitely things that can make a school bad: chaotic administration, low teacher pay, high teacher turnover, very large classes, run down facilities, lack of responsiveness from teachers and staff. But I wouldn't personally include test scores achieved by students in that list, one way or the other.
It's important to note that if your children have special needs, the evaluation gets much trickier. Resources can make a huge difference in a school's ability to provide a good education to children with needs that lie outside the typical range.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:22 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
There are definitely things that can make a school bad: chaotic administration, low teacher pay, high teacher turnover, very large classes, run down facilities, lack of responsiveness from teachers and staff. But I wouldn't personally include test scores achieved by students in that list, one way or the other.
It's important to note that if your children have special needs, the evaluation gets much trickier. Resources can make a huge difference in a school's ability to provide a good education to children with needs that lie outside the typical range.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:22 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
One of the things that I think is a really important factor is that more of the best schools are starting to have robust anti-bullying curriculum. Good schools also are addressing social media bullying as well, and often have zero tolerance for cyber bullying or bigotry. It can be absolutely crucial if you have a kid with disabilities, or who is overweight, queer, or just plain “weird”.
this is a great point. You won't find schools with no bullies, regardless of the social status. The bullying might take a different form in a more affluent, less diverse school but it is there. Some schools are definitely more prepared and WILLING to deal with bullying though, and that is a very important trait of what i would consider a good school.
posted by domino at 11:30 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
this is a great point. You won't find schools with no bullies, regardless of the social status. The bullying might take a different form in a more affluent, less diverse school but it is there. Some schools are definitely more prepared and WILLING to deal with bullying though, and that is a very important trait of what i would consider a good school.
posted by domino at 11:30 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
So my question is, what makes a good school so much better than a bad school
Money, which translates into resources, like teachers, staff, books, computers, programs, etc. And also flexibility.
I'll give you an example:
When I was in high school I was chronically ill. For the first part of high school, I went to a large, over-crowded high school that wasn't actually "bad" but where students were pretty much anonymous if they weren't making trouble. This was fine. I didn't do all that well because of my illness, but I didn't feel like I was fighting the school.
My mom got married, and we moved, and I ended up in a school I would definitely call "bad." It was a rural, nearly all-white school staffed by incuriou and often hostile teachers (with one exception, god bless him). I got in-school suspension for pushing back against homophobic bullying once.
But the absolute worst thing was that I had to make up my absences by coming in on the weekend. I was chronically ill, which meant I had to come in every weekend. We would do homework for a while and then we would be set to doing janitorial tasks. This was entirely about funding; they only got money for a student if that student attended X days of the school year and my absences put me under that number. It eventually got to the point where there weren't enough weekends and they were going to fail me for the year despite me consistently acing my work.
Money, money, money.
I dropped out high school and got my GED and my only regret is not doing as soon as it was legal.
I don't think the lackluster academics of the school mattered all that much because I was already an academically-oriented kid. I didn't need the school's support to build my interest in learning. (I went on to college, and eventually earned a doctorate).
This is a highly individual experience, but I would think about similar issues. How could a lack of resources affect your kids, if they had some sort of issue - whether it's a learning disability, an illness, mental health problems, and so on? Or what if they had an interest, like computer programming or robotics - would there be resources for them to explore that at school?
I absolutely hate the way that school funding is organized. I hate that we sort schools into "good" and "bad", and that it is a feedback loop of families with resources choosing "good" schools to give their resources to. It is deeply, deeply racist and unfair. I don't want to tell you to go to a "good" school. But if I'm honest, the resources can make a big difference if your kid needs anything slightly out of the ordinary.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:20 PM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Money, which translates into resources, like teachers, staff, books, computers, programs, etc. And also flexibility.
I'll give you an example:
When I was in high school I was chronically ill. For the first part of high school, I went to a large, over-crowded high school that wasn't actually "bad" but where students were pretty much anonymous if they weren't making trouble. This was fine. I didn't do all that well because of my illness, but I didn't feel like I was fighting the school.
My mom got married, and we moved, and I ended up in a school I would definitely call "bad." It was a rural, nearly all-white school staffed by incuriou and often hostile teachers (with one exception, god bless him). I got in-school suspension for pushing back against homophobic bullying once.
But the absolute worst thing was that I had to make up my absences by coming in on the weekend. I was chronically ill, which meant I had to come in every weekend. We would do homework for a while and then we would be set to doing janitorial tasks. This was entirely about funding; they only got money for a student if that student attended X days of the school year and my absences put me under that number. It eventually got to the point where there weren't enough weekends and they were going to fail me for the year despite me consistently acing my work.
Money, money, money.
I dropped out high school and got my GED and my only regret is not doing as soon as it was legal.
I don't think the lackluster academics of the school mattered all that much because I was already an academically-oriented kid. I didn't need the school's support to build my interest in learning. (I went on to college, and eventually earned a doctorate).
This is a highly individual experience, but I would think about similar issues. How could a lack of resources affect your kids, if they had some sort of issue - whether it's a learning disability, an illness, mental health problems, and so on? Or what if they had an interest, like computer programming or robotics - would there be resources for them to explore that at school?
I absolutely hate the way that school funding is organized. I hate that we sort schools into "good" and "bad", and that it is a feedback loop of families with resources choosing "good" schools to give their resources to. It is deeply, deeply racist and unfair. I don't want to tell you to go to a "good" school. But if I'm honest, the resources can make a big difference if your kid needs anything slightly out of the ordinary.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:20 PM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
You're confusing not being in the fanciest high school in the area with being in a bad school or bad system.
Without doxing you, I assume you're at base comparing the core-urban district(s) of a medium-sized city, in a state that takes education relatively seriously, with its surrounding suburbs? Like, comparing the central urban district for Madison WI or Columbus OH or Pittsburgh to its surrounding entirely-suburban districts?
Yeah, in those settings, the basic place you're coming from that you don't need to have gone to the fanciest high school is basically right. Around here, you can do perfectly fine going through Buffalo schools instead of the suburban Williamsville or Clarence districts. If your kids end up being otherwise-competitive for elite undergrad schools, it can still matter that they won't have as much of a support network built around that, but if your expectation is that they'll get into Flagship State University and that's enough, it probably won't matter.
There's a broader context you're not asking about, though, where schools and communities really do matter. Think less "inner city" and more "shitty zero-prospects rural flyspeck." The kind of town where it really, seriously, doesn't make much sense for the high school to do much AP or college-prep work because so few of the students even want to go to a four-year college. I used to teach some of those kids when I taught at the Univ of North Texas, and so many were utterly unprepared to do any kind of college-level work and just failed out.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:38 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Without doxing you, I assume you're at base comparing the core-urban district(s) of a medium-sized city, in a state that takes education relatively seriously, with its surrounding suburbs? Like, comparing the central urban district for Madison WI or Columbus OH or Pittsburgh to its surrounding entirely-suburban districts?
Yeah, in those settings, the basic place you're coming from that you don't need to have gone to the fanciest high school is basically right. Around here, you can do perfectly fine going through Buffalo schools instead of the suburban Williamsville or Clarence districts. If your kids end up being otherwise-competitive for elite undergrad schools, it can still matter that they won't have as much of a support network built around that, but if your expectation is that they'll get into Flagship State University and that's enough, it probably won't matter.
There's a broader context you're not asking about, though, where schools and communities really do matter. Think less "inner city" and more "shitty zero-prospects rural flyspeck." The kind of town where it really, seriously, doesn't make much sense for the high school to do much AP or college-prep work because so few of the students even want to go to a four-year college. I used to teach some of those kids when I taught at the Univ of North Texas, and so many were utterly unprepared to do any kind of college-level work and just failed out.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:38 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
If your kid is not given the opportunity to take higher level math, science, and language courses it will very much limit their college experience if they get into a “much better than their high school” type of college. That’s my one piece of personal advice. Like, my school absolutely didn’t offer APs, IBs , language beyond year 2 Spanish or even frickin’ calculus (pre-calc was taught by the football coach.). Buut again the fact that you’re asking this question at all means your kids will probably go to a high school with those things.
posted by Hypatia at 12:40 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Hypatia at 12:40 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
"But above all, don't focus on whether "people say" that a school is good or bad. This is almost entirely going to be about the class and race makeup of the student body!"
Unfortunately "what people say" about schools is also going to have a heavy influence on the value of your property. Even if you end up coming to a broader definition of "good school" just bear in mind that your property will hold/increase (or god forbid decrease) its value based on a more common idea of "good school" ... which, yes, is probably about race and class. Think about how long you want to live in that house and how much risk you can afford to take with your investment.
Bear in mind, too, that school systems often redistrict, so a house you buy this year to be in zone for School X might be zoned for School Y by the time your child gets there. That would seem to make more of an argument for picking the school *system* that has the best reputation, then getting comfortable with the idea that there's not only one school within that system that will suffice.
posted by mccxxiii at 12:49 PM on July 14, 2021
Unfortunately "what people say" about schools is also going to have a heavy influence on the value of your property. Even if you end up coming to a broader definition of "good school" just bear in mind that your property will hold/increase (or god forbid decrease) its value based on a more common idea of "good school" ... which, yes, is probably about race and class. Think about how long you want to live in that house and how much risk you can afford to take with your investment.
Bear in mind, too, that school systems often redistrict, so a house you buy this year to be in zone for School X might be zoned for School Y by the time your child gets there. That would seem to make more of an argument for picking the school *system* that has the best reputation, then getting comfortable with the idea that there's not only one school within that system that will suffice.
posted by mccxxiii at 12:49 PM on July 14, 2021
Response by poster: A lot of really thought-provoking comments so far, thanks! I have a couple of follow-up questions on some of them.
"some useful indicators of good schools are staff retention ... and teachers salaries"
"they do need relatively recent textbooks"
"Our local HS offers AP classes, but the school datasheet shows that out of 32 tests taken, 31 scored 1 or 2."
"College counsellors who are good at getting your child into their chosen university"
These all seem like good proxies for academic quality, but how do I as a member of the general public find this information? This does not seem like information that would be easy for the public to find, and in fact some might actually be deliberately obscured.
"how aggressive/present was tracking in your school?"
"a necessary one is having a sufficient cohort of academically successful students"
This is the essence of my educational experience. By high school, we AP kids were essentially in a separate school except for lunch and homeroom (and the occasional after-school mugging). I did not realize this was actually a thing, and it makes it a lot easier to articulate what I'm hoping for. But this also seems like it's information the school wouldn't want to broadcast to the public. So how can I tell?
posted by kevinbelt at 12:57 PM on July 14, 2021
"some useful indicators of good schools are staff retention ... and teachers salaries"
"they do need relatively recent textbooks"
"Our local HS offers AP classes, but the school datasheet shows that out of 32 tests taken, 31 scored 1 or 2."
"College counsellors who are good at getting your child into their chosen university"
These all seem like good proxies for academic quality, but how do I as a member of the general public find this information? This does not seem like information that would be easy for the public to find, and in fact some might actually be deliberately obscured.
"how aggressive/present was tracking in your school?"
"a necessary one is having a sufficient cohort of academically successful students"
This is the essence of my educational experience. By high school, we AP kids were essentially in a separate school except for lunch and homeroom (and the occasional after-school mugging). I did not realize this was actually a thing, and it makes it a lot easier to articulate what I'm hoping for. But this also seems like it's information the school wouldn't want to broadcast to the public. So how can I tell?
posted by kevinbelt at 12:57 PM on July 14, 2021
These all seem like good proxies for academic quality, but how do I as a member of the general public find this information? This does not seem like information that would be easy for the public to find, and in fact some might actually be deliberately obscured.
School board meetings and meeting records for all of this which should be available somewhere online. If you looked at the last few months of our district, for example, you'd be able to find basically all of the information you're asking about in the minutes and associated materials (curriculum purchases, number of resignations, teacher pay schedules, AP scores and #of students who took them, bullying and mental health statistics, etc.)
For colleges, the local paper here actually publishes top 10 lists for the local districts, and it includes where folks are going next. You can see the differences between the districts there (2 year vs 4 year, flagship vs. satellite campus of state university vs. "big name" schools, etc.)
Tracking can seen in the curriculum (high schools will often have sample schedules for kids in college prep vs. not) which'll be in the various student handbooks.
posted by damayanti at 1:07 PM on July 14, 2021
These all seem like good proxies for academic quality, but how do I as a member of the general public find this information?
A lot of this information is public. Policies on tracking should certainly be public. (Whether tracking is a good thing or not is a separate question.)
I would also suggest you ask to meet with a local school principal, high school head, or someone else in the administration at a school. I've done that when I was thinking of moving to a new town, and it gave me a great window into the school. The fact that the principal had time to meet with me also told me a lot. If the schools don't have anyone with time to talk to you, that will also tell you something about the school.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 1:27 PM on July 14, 2021
A lot of this information is public. Policies on tracking should certainly be public. (Whether tracking is a good thing or not is a separate question.)
I would also suggest you ask to meet with a local school principal, high school head, or someone else in the administration at a school. I've done that when I was thinking of moving to a new town, and it gave me a great window into the school. The fact that the principal had time to meet with me also told me a lot. If the schools don't have anyone with time to talk to you, that will also tell you something about the school.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 1:27 PM on July 14, 2021
I want to push back against the idea that kids with special needs do better in "good" schools. One of my kids at first went to what could be considered a "bad" school, in terms of income level etc, but the teachers were great and I wish we could have stayed there. They later went to a "good" school in the wealthy part of our town (in a different district) and the treatment they got was so bad I had to get lawyers involved.
There is no guarantee that a "good" district will give a shit about kids with disabilities.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:32 PM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
There is no guarantee that a "good" district will give a shit about kids with disabilities.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:32 PM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Good schools also are addressing social media bullying as well, and often have zero tolerance for cyber bullying or bigotry. It can be absolutely crucial if you have a kid with disabilities, or who is overweight, queer, or just plain “weird”.
I came here to say something similar - I grew up in a "bad" urban school district. A neighborhood friend, who was white (as am I) got routinely beat up at the local magnet school (with an IB program) after she shaved her head. That wasn't the only reason she attempted suicide, but it certainly didn't help.
I also just want to add that the options aren't always either move to an all-white neighborhood for a "good" school vs. move to a diverse neighborhood and get a "bad" school. There are private schools at a wide range of price points, usually with financial aid available - Catholic schools will accept your kid even if you have an extremely Jewish name, for example. I'm personally grateful that I grew up in a diverse neighborhood, where the kids on the block I grew up playing with were not all white - but I'm also grateful my parents didn't send me to the elementary school in our district, where my mom taught there before I was born. She routinely had kids volunteer to help her in her classroom after school go out (she later found out this was to avoid getting beat up) and students with severe disabilities were thrown into the mix (including a student who regularly would start screaming in response to hallucinations). I'm sure I would have still turned out fine, but I was a sensitive shy kid and I know that wouldn't have exactly helped me learn. Anyhow, my parents at one point considered moving to the county where the public schools would be "better," but realized given the difference of housing costs, they wouldn't actually be saving much to live somewhere pretty bland.
Perhaps worth noting that at least when I was growing up, my hometown's schools were regularly ranked as some of the "worst" in the entire country. I strongly agree with goodbyewaffles that you just need an "okay" school. How/where you get that will vary a lot from place to place in the US. I also enjoyed the Good White Parents podcast mentioned upthread, but I also found it very NYC. The "bad" public schools they profile are still located in zip codes with relative wealth/property taxes compared to much of the country.
posted by coffeecat at 1:52 PM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
I came here to say something similar - I grew up in a "bad" urban school district. A neighborhood friend, who was white (as am I) got routinely beat up at the local magnet school (with an IB program) after she shaved her head. That wasn't the only reason she attempted suicide, but it certainly didn't help.
I also just want to add that the options aren't always either move to an all-white neighborhood for a "good" school vs. move to a diverse neighborhood and get a "bad" school. There are private schools at a wide range of price points, usually with financial aid available - Catholic schools will accept your kid even if you have an extremely Jewish name, for example. I'm personally grateful that I grew up in a diverse neighborhood, where the kids on the block I grew up playing with were not all white - but I'm also grateful my parents didn't send me to the elementary school in our district, where my mom taught there before I was born. She routinely had kids volunteer to help her in her classroom after school go out (she later found out this was to avoid getting beat up) and students with severe disabilities were thrown into the mix (including a student who regularly would start screaming in response to hallucinations). I'm sure I would have still turned out fine, but I was a sensitive shy kid and I know that wouldn't have exactly helped me learn. Anyhow, my parents at one point considered moving to the county where the public schools would be "better," but realized given the difference of housing costs, they wouldn't actually be saving much to live somewhere pretty bland.
Perhaps worth noting that at least when I was growing up, my hometown's schools were regularly ranked as some of the "worst" in the entire country. I strongly agree with goodbyewaffles that you just need an "okay" school. How/where you get that will vary a lot from place to place in the US. I also enjoyed the Good White Parents podcast mentioned upthread, but I also found it very NYC. The "bad" public schools they profile are still located in zip codes with relative wealth/property taxes compared to much of the country.
posted by coffeecat at 1:52 PM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Not a parent, but a graduate of "good schools" (nationally high ranking school district, and my high school in particular was a public magnet school). I had a great school experience and got to do a lot of things I wouldn't otherwise have had access to.
The downside, which I didn't fully realize at the time, was just how much the lack of diversity (both race and class) was hurtful to my education. The school was majority Asian, followed by white, and like... two Black kids in my class? All the teachers were white. All the required reading was by white authors, except one (Une si longue lettre by Mariama Ba in AP French Lit, senior year.)
There was also a lot of unremarked snobbery and educational bullying and people being obsessed with getting into Ivy League colleges (and really only Harvard, Yale, or Princeton; the others were not good enough). I don't know how much of that was specific to my school vs a product of any "good school." But it was a borderline toxic environment even back then, and from what I can see, has only worsened in the era of social media.
posted by basalganglia at 2:07 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
The downside, which I didn't fully realize at the time, was just how much the lack of diversity (both race and class) was hurtful to my education. The school was majority Asian, followed by white, and like... two Black kids in my class? All the teachers were white. All the required reading was by white authors, except one (Une si longue lettre by Mariama Ba in AP French Lit, senior year.)
There was also a lot of unremarked snobbery and educational bullying and people being obsessed with getting into Ivy League colleges (and really only Harvard, Yale, or Princeton; the others were not good enough). I don't know how much of that was specific to my school vs a product of any "good school." But it was a borderline toxic environment even back then, and from what I can see, has only worsened in the era of social media.
posted by basalganglia at 2:07 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I did not realize this was actually a thing, and it makes it a lot easier to articulate what I'm hoping for.
I would like to encourage you to think again about hoping too eagerly for the "essentially in a separate school" experience. Aggressive tracking exacerbates inequality in lots of uncool ways -- kids who lack the resources to get placed in the right track early on are largely locked out of the possibility of making their way to advanced/prestige classwork later on, and it's not great.
posted by redfoxtail at 2:13 PM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
I would like to encourage you to think again about hoping too eagerly for the "essentially in a separate school" experience. Aggressive tracking exacerbates inequality in lots of uncool ways -- kids who lack the resources to get placed in the right track early on are largely locked out of the possibility of making their way to advanced/prestige classwork later on, and it's not great.
posted by redfoxtail at 2:13 PM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
I want to write a longer answer later, but just to jump in quickly on one point: while general physical safety from outside threats is something that your average so-called "good" school will offer, the idea that the better-off suburban schools won't feature vicious bullying, especially of kids who are poorer than the school average, is...not realistic.
posted by praemunire at 2:51 PM on July 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 2:51 PM on July 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
I had an acquaintance who did his PhD research on our local "very good" school district. He mentioned that his research was eye-opening to him because a lot of parents sacrificed a lot of live in this school district just so their kids could go to school here and the schools had tons of resources, but they basically focused them all on helping the top students achieve even more, rather than helping students who needed help. So, students with learning disabilities or who simply needed some assistance weren't getting it, while there were always more AP classes for those who wanted them.
Basically, if a student wasn't top of the top, other school districts would be a better fit because they would have more accommodations and better assistance for most students.
posted by shesbookish at 3:26 PM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Basically, if a student wasn't top of the top, other school districts would be a better fit because they would have more accommodations and better assistance for most students.
posted by shesbookish at 3:26 PM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
I know someone who tried to break up a fight and got stabbed and died. That.. really really sucks. If you can minimize that kind of environment for your kids then it's probably better.
Aside from violence, look into what kinds of opportunities a school has as far as research, volunteering, internships, and AP classes. Of course, you don't know if your child will do any of that but it's good to have options.
I went to a school that had a "good" program and a "zoned" kids program and when I had to take a few classes with the zoned kids, about 5-10 minutes of every lesson was spent on discipline. Does this matter in the long run? Who knows.
This doesn't mean that every good school will be better for YOUR kid or will be better for 100% of the kids, but putting your kid in a school where parents have time to care about their education might maybe maximize the odds of your kids being surrounded by other kids who do their homework... or might have a higher chance of bullying and cliques or kids doing drugs out of boredom vs being involved with gangs. You just never know. That said, we are not sending our kid to the BEST school around us, just a good enough one, because I agree with a lot of the points you made. But if things are not working our for our kid, then yes we will move to a "better" school after doing some research and talking to parents from there.
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 4:17 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Aside from violence, look into what kinds of opportunities a school has as far as research, volunteering, internships, and AP classes. Of course, you don't know if your child will do any of that but it's good to have options.
I went to a school that had a "good" program and a "zoned" kids program and when I had to take a few classes with the zoned kids, about 5-10 minutes of every lesson was spent on discipline. Does this matter in the long run? Who knows.
This doesn't mean that every good school will be better for YOUR kid or will be better for 100% of the kids, but putting your kid in a school where parents have time to care about their education might maybe maximize the odds of your kids being surrounded by other kids who do their homework... or might have a higher chance of bullying and cliques or kids doing drugs out of boredom vs being involved with gangs. You just never know. That said, we are not sending our kid to the BEST school around us, just a good enough one, because I agree with a lot of the points you made. But if things are not working our for our kid, then yes we will move to a "better" school after doing some research and talking to parents from there.
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 4:17 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is a topic I have changed my mind about due to personal experience. When we moved to the southwest Houston suburbs five years ago, almost everyone we met warned us that while the elementary school was fine, the junior high was terrible. We were encouraged repeatedly to move before our kids hit seventh grade. And we knew lots of families that did exactly that. Kids would hit 11 or 12 years old and their families would move a mile and a half away to get into a different school.
I chalked all this up to white parents not wanting their kids in school with only a small percentage of white kids (13%, to be precise), and wrote off their concerns as inherent racism or classism or both. So we stayed.
My kid lasted one semester at that junior high. It was rough. She was pushed in the hallways, she was sexually harassed. She got tired of being called a bitch. She got tired of kids grabbing things out of her backpack. I called and emailed counselors and vice principals routinely and never got anywhere. We moved three miles away and things were much better immediately, and when she had problems, the administration was responsive. It's not a stereotypical "white" school--there's no such thing in our area. The new school is almost divided almost evenly between white, African-American, hispanic, and Asian students. She's exposed to plenty of diversity. But no one has called her a bitch, stolen her purse, or talked about her what they'd like to do to her body.
In short: I should have listened to all the dramatic middle-class white folks. They had a point this time.
Now, that might not apply in your situation at all. Maybe the "bad school" is actually safe and supportive and fine. It could be. But sometimes, at least, the bad school is bad.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 5:13 PM on July 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
I chalked all this up to white parents not wanting their kids in school with only a small percentage of white kids (13%, to be precise), and wrote off their concerns as inherent racism or classism or both. So we stayed.
My kid lasted one semester at that junior high. It was rough. She was pushed in the hallways, she was sexually harassed. She got tired of being called a bitch. She got tired of kids grabbing things out of her backpack. I called and emailed counselors and vice principals routinely and never got anywhere. We moved three miles away and things were much better immediately, and when she had problems, the administration was responsive. It's not a stereotypical "white" school--there's no such thing in our area. The new school is almost divided almost evenly between white, African-American, hispanic, and Asian students. She's exposed to plenty of diversity. But no one has called her a bitch, stolen her purse, or talked about her what they'd like to do to her body.
In short: I should have listened to all the dramatic middle-class white folks. They had a point this time.
Now, that might not apply in your situation at all. Maybe the "bad school" is actually safe and supportive and fine. It could be. But sometimes, at least, the bad school is bad.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 5:13 PM on July 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
But you also don't want them to go to a Good School -- the districts where people fight over houses, where every kid goes to college, where not getting into The Best College means you're a total failure at 18. The mental health issues that students at elite public schools face are hard to believe if you haven't seen them firsthand.
Yeah my parents specifically moved to the rural area that became a suburb because of the "good schools." Both of them had grown up in more diverse and urban areas with just a lot more different kinds of people around. My elementary school was like that, a little, but my high school was just super-competitive, very sports-focused (in a New England way, not a Southern way) and only two kids I graduated with didn't go to college (one joined the military instead, the other was a hippie and noodled around some). It was also very white in ways that I didn't even realize at the time was a huge problem. Everyone assumed that you wanted to go to a good college and everything was geared towards that, it was really stratified. I did not want that and teachers were either weird and sneering at me ("So much potential, wasted!") or were themselves slightly underachieving oddballs, many of whom were dudes who were inappropriately friendly with female students. Granted, this was a while ago--and I wound up going to Hampshire College and am fine now--but I hated my "good school" and I got the feeling that it was mutual.
Now I live in a smallish town in Vermont. Still a racial diversity issue, but the school flies the Black Lives Matter flag, there's a lot of class diversity, the kids don't do great on standardized tests--they do fine but not great--but it's a really nice community, people are really involved, there's a great technical education center in the same town and the GLBTQ kids are supported. It's not perfect, there are still issues, but even for a less "good school" it would be a place I'd be happy to send my kids if I had any. That said, I have a few friends here who had kids with specific learning needs/disabilities and it was harder for them.
Some of this, to my mind, really breaks down into things like classroom size and the idea of civic participation generally. People have given you a lot of other great thing to think about, but it's worth thinking about, for where you live, what kinds of things would make a school bad for what YOU wanted and good for what YOU wanted. It's definitely the case that betters schools in a lot of places can make property taxes higher, it's not always the case that makes a better situation for your kids.
posted by jessamyn at 5:51 PM on July 14, 2021
Yeah my parents specifically moved to the rural area that became a suburb because of the "good schools." Both of them had grown up in more diverse and urban areas with just a lot more different kinds of people around. My elementary school was like that, a little, but my high school was just super-competitive, very sports-focused (in a New England way, not a Southern way) and only two kids I graduated with didn't go to college (one joined the military instead, the other was a hippie and noodled around some). It was also very white in ways that I didn't even realize at the time was a huge problem. Everyone assumed that you wanted to go to a good college and everything was geared towards that, it was really stratified. I did not want that and teachers were either weird and sneering at me ("So much potential, wasted!") or were themselves slightly underachieving oddballs, many of whom were dudes who were inappropriately friendly with female students. Granted, this was a while ago--and I wound up going to Hampshire College and am fine now--but I hated my "good school" and I got the feeling that it was mutual.
Now I live in a smallish town in Vermont. Still a racial diversity issue, but the school flies the Black Lives Matter flag, there's a lot of class diversity, the kids don't do great on standardized tests--they do fine but not great--but it's a really nice community, people are really involved, there's a great technical education center in the same town and the GLBTQ kids are supported. It's not perfect, there are still issues, but even for a less "good school" it would be a place I'd be happy to send my kids if I had any. That said, I have a few friends here who had kids with specific learning needs/disabilities and it was harder for them.
Some of this, to my mind, really breaks down into things like classroom size and the idea of civic participation generally. People have given you a lot of other great thing to think about, but it's worth thinking about, for where you live, what kinds of things would make a school bad for what YOU wanted and good for what YOU wanted. It's definitely the case that betters schools in a lot of places can make property taxes higher, it's not always the case that makes a better situation for your kids.
posted by jessamyn at 5:51 PM on July 14, 2021
Read The Formula, by Albert laszlo Barbarsi and there is a chapter on tracking kids who “made the cut” to attend elite schools vs those who did not and ended up going to the “bad” schools. The net net, I believe, was no discernible difference in career earnings or happiness.
posted by pmaxwell at 6:53 PM on July 14, 2021
posted by pmaxwell at 6:53 PM on July 14, 2021
You were what they call "bulletproof". The question you have to ask yourself is how bulletproof do you want your kids to have to be?
posted by Chitownfats at 4:29 AM on July 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Chitownfats at 4:29 AM on July 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is the essence of my educational experience. By high school, we AP kids were essentially in a separate school except for lunch and homeroom (and the occasional after-school mugging). I did not realize this was actually a thing, and it makes it a lot easier to articulate what I'm hoping for.
I would like to reiterate what resfoxtail said in response to the above. This experience is actually pretty common for white, higher-income students at so-called “bad” schools. And not only does the “school within a school” still reinforce segregation, but the “special” students are in some ways MORE likely to get into elite colleges than if they had gone to a so-called “good” school. Elite colleges prioritize diversity among their incoming classes, and one of the ways they do this is by school demographics as a whole. They are very happy to accept the handful of students from “Bad School” who are otherwise demographically identical to the kids from “Good School” and call that diversity and opportunity.
Just wanted to share that insight into why so many of the people you know from your “bad” school-within-a-school may have been so successful on the specific Ivy League trajectory.
I don’t have advice for you, exactly, except that no matter where your kids go to school they will need to see you trying to fight white supremacy, even when it benefits them and you, even when it maybe is doing so in a way that is currently invisible to you. I do second the recommendation for the Nice White Parents podcast, which I found to be a good intro-level exploration of some of the dynamics of race and schooling in the US, and the problems supposedly “well-meaning” white people can cause. (Caveat: I am a white person.) I think your impulse to interrogate these categories is good, but there is a lot going on here, and it’s so much more complicated than most white people realize.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 9:10 AM on July 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
I would like to reiterate what resfoxtail said in response to the above. This experience is actually pretty common for white, higher-income students at so-called “bad” schools. And not only does the “school within a school” still reinforce segregation, but the “special” students are in some ways MORE likely to get into elite colleges than if they had gone to a so-called “good” school. Elite colleges prioritize diversity among their incoming classes, and one of the ways they do this is by school demographics as a whole. They are very happy to accept the handful of students from “Bad School” who are otherwise demographically identical to the kids from “Good School” and call that diversity and opportunity.
Just wanted to share that insight into why so many of the people you know from your “bad” school-within-a-school may have been so successful on the specific Ivy League trajectory.
I don’t have advice for you, exactly, except that no matter where your kids go to school they will need to see you trying to fight white supremacy, even when it benefits them and you, even when it maybe is doing so in a way that is currently invisible to you. I do second the recommendation for the Nice White Parents podcast, which I found to be a good intro-level exploration of some of the dynamics of race and schooling in the US, and the problems supposedly “well-meaning” white people can cause. (Caveat: I am a white person.) I think your impulse to interrogate these categories is good, but there is a lot going on here, and it’s so much more complicated than most white people realize.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 9:10 AM on July 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
I’ll come at this with another perspective. I sent my daughter to the supposedly good public elementary school she was zoned for - which coincidentally is also the whitest school in the entire district - and it was terrible. No accountability, bad teachers, checked out principal. We pulled her out and sent her to private school after a year because it was clear no one at this “good” school actually gave a s*** about education. Every day my kid complained about being bored, was clearly uninspired and it was clear the school was killing her enthusiasm for learning. My impression is the parents were more interested in performing that they were doing the “right” thing of sending their kids to a “diverse” public school, to the extent they were not concerned with the actual school performance. This may be specific to my very over-priveledged zip code. I don’t know what the moral is, but “good” school means nothing. This one came very highly rated on all the websites, but was terrible in reality.
posted by annie o at 6:54 PM on July 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by annie o at 6:54 PM on July 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
1) If you went to a good school, you'll want your kid to go to a good school too, and extol those values.
2)"Good" school usually means what percentage of white kids are in the school.
posted by sandmanwv at 8:41 AM on July 14, 2021 [38 favorites]