Flag burning etiquette
July 5, 2021 12:11 AM Subscribe
I think I'm probably fine, but I'd like to appease my paranoia and curiousity nonetheless: Should I be concerned immigration-wise about the situation described below? Also, on a scale of one to ten, was this normal?
My partner and I moved to America a few months ago, so that she could start a job at a public university on the west coast. Some of her colleagues invited us to a July 4 party. Great!
I hadn't met the hosts before, but they were being super friendly about welcoming us, which I really appreciated. Social scientists, harder left than either of us, and mostly professors at the same school.
We get there late, so it's in full swing. The event is completely normal and pleasant. After about thirty minutes, however, one of the hosts comes out with a handful of American flags. She explains that they're ironically celebrating her recent green card. She then hands them out to the guests, moves the barbecue to the middle of the group, and invites us all to set fire to them.
Neither my partner or I had accepted flags, but everyone else really piled in, and a pretty extended flag-burning ensued. At least one of the other guests filmed it.
Firstly, semi-seriously: How bad would it be, immigration-wise, if a YouTube video of us at a flag-burning got out? Even if we didn't participate? I'm applying for a new visa this month, and we're both hopefully applying for green cards soonish. I checked in with the host, and she says there were no faces in the video. Still, I'm not sure if there were others filming, and I'd really not like to have to explain something like this to an immigration official.
Secondly, ...well, how normal is something like this these days? I'm new to America. I know Trump was miserable, I know things are fraught, but still---this felt more like a Fox News wet dream than reality. Or, like, a Candid Camera skit. Public university professors burning American flags! I guess I'm just a bit shocked. Thoughts?
My partner and I moved to America a few months ago, so that she could start a job at a public university on the west coast. Some of her colleagues invited us to a July 4 party. Great!
I hadn't met the hosts before, but they were being super friendly about welcoming us, which I really appreciated. Social scientists, harder left than either of us, and mostly professors at the same school.
We get there late, so it's in full swing. The event is completely normal and pleasant. After about thirty minutes, however, one of the hosts comes out with a handful of American flags. She explains that they're ironically celebrating her recent green card. She then hands them out to the guests, moves the barbecue to the middle of the group, and invites us all to set fire to them.
Neither my partner or I had accepted flags, but everyone else really piled in, and a pretty extended flag-burning ensued. At least one of the other guests filmed it.
Firstly, semi-seriously: How bad would it be, immigration-wise, if a YouTube video of us at a flag-burning got out? Even if we didn't participate? I'm applying for a new visa this month, and we're both hopefully applying for green cards soonish. I checked in with the host, and she says there were no faces in the video. Still, I'm not sure if there were others filming, and I'd really not like to have to explain something like this to an immigration official.
Secondly, ...well, how normal is something like this these days? I'm new to America. I know Trump was miserable, I know things are fraught, but still---this felt more like a Fox News wet dream than reality. Or, like, a Candid Camera skit. Public university professors burning American flags! I guess I'm just a bit shocked. Thoughts?
I'm so sorry you were put in this situation. I'm all about free speech but I find their behavior such a gross example of liberal white North American privilege. (Sure, maybe they're not white and I realize they're an immigrant, too, but I know the type and will label accordingly.) I'd like to have seen them do something actually benefiting disenfranchised groups in the US instead of a self-aggrandizing performative act. (...and you know they got those flags on sale at Walmart, and burning them isn't good for the environment, blah blah blah.) I mean, plenty of MeFites could argue her actions were fine and even awesome, and I respect their opinion... but this is mine! /rant
First, you did the right thing by not accepting the flag and just playing it cool. I would have left and said I thought it was so bullshit -- as someone who's very liberal -- but I have that aforementioned privilege. If she had done it herself as a ceremony of her new status, then fine, but passing them out? Barf.
Second, I doubt this would ever come up in any sort of way. If you get tagged on social media -- unlikely, you can untag yourself and block the person. If anyone gives you shit, you can explain that you are an immigrant and don't have the same privilege of security.
Third, you surely are already thinking this, but I'd try to avoid future interactions with the host outside of work because she seems a bit off. Academic departments at colleges and universities can be so insular, almost incestous, and unhealthy. People can seem so woke academically but then be so petty and unaware on a personal level: weird alliances can form, bullying can occur, and what not. I hope you and your spouse can find more friends outside of work, completely unrelated to the school, who share your values and are at least more aware of their privilege.
Again, please do not worry. This will soon pass and there will likely be no damning evidence. I've been an immigrant twice in my life on two other continents and absolutely understand your fears. <3
posted by smorgasbord at 1:31 AM on July 5, 2021 [27 favorites]
First, you did the right thing by not accepting the flag and just playing it cool. I would have left and said I thought it was so bullshit -- as someone who's very liberal -- but I have that aforementioned privilege. If she had done it herself as a ceremony of her new status, then fine, but passing them out? Barf.
Second, I doubt this would ever come up in any sort of way. If you get tagged on social media -- unlikely, you can untag yourself and block the person. If anyone gives you shit, you can explain that you are an immigrant and don't have the same privilege of security.
Third, you surely are already thinking this, but I'd try to avoid future interactions with the host outside of work because she seems a bit off. Academic departments at colleges and universities can be so insular, almost incestous, and unhealthy. People can seem so woke academically but then be so petty and unaware on a personal level: weird alliances can form, bullying can occur, and what not. I hope you and your spouse can find more friends outside of work, completely unrelated to the school, who share your values and are at least more aware of their privilege.
Again, please do not worry. This will soon pass and there will likely be no damning evidence. I've been an immigrant twice in my life on two other continents and absolutely understand your fears. <3
posted by smorgasbord at 1:31 AM on July 5, 2021 [27 favorites]
My thought: burning an American flag can be construed as a patriotic act. For one of the things that's good about the U.S. is that this sort of display is constitutionally protected. This isn't uniformly the case elsewhere, to say the least; a law criminalizing any insult to the nation in Turkey comes to mind, by way of contrast. So I can certainly imagine that this flag burning was intended as a celebration of the U.S. and its avowed political values of personal liberty. (A burning of the American flag in Iran, for instance, would not have the same possible subtext or connotations, and could probably express only mere hostility.)
But of course I can't have sure knowledge of your hosts' intent without knowing more. And, also, the meaning of rituals -- this was a kind of ritual -- tends to vary among those who stage and participate in them and thus escape fixed intent.
posted by bertran at 2:40 AM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
But of course I can't have sure knowledge of your hosts' intent without knowing more. And, also, the meaning of rituals -- this was a kind of ritual -- tends to vary among those who stage and participate in them and thus escape fixed intent.
posted by bertran at 2:40 AM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
Flag burning etiquette from The Old Farmer's Almanac --
How to properly dispose of an American flag
When the flag is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem, it should be destroyed in a dignified and ceremonious fashion, preferably by burning.
Most American Legion posts will conduct an annual ceremony, often on Flag Day (June 14) to retire old or worn flags; contact your local chapter if you are not able to dispose of the flag yourself. You could also ask your local Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts troops about retiring your flag.
So the burning of the flags is a matter of context. Given that they were not weather beaten and frayed into strips, it plays more as protest than proper disposal.
posted by TrishaU at 2:45 AM on July 5, 2021
How to properly dispose of an American flag
When the flag is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem, it should be destroyed in a dignified and ceremonious fashion, preferably by burning.
Most American Legion posts will conduct an annual ceremony, often on Flag Day (June 14) to retire old or worn flags; contact your local chapter if you are not able to dispose of the flag yourself. You could also ask your local Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts troops about retiring your flag.
So the burning of the flags is a matter of context. Given that they were not weather beaten and frayed into strips, it plays more as protest than proper disposal.
posted by TrishaU at 2:45 AM on July 5, 2021
To answer your specific question of, “On a scale of one to ten, was this normal?”
If 0 is completely abnormal and 10 is completely normal, I’d say it’s like a 0.5.
Yes, flag burning is a thing. But it is a very provocative act and generally done at large protests to make a huge statement. So to casually replicate the same act as a joke (?) in a group setting with no real warning and for no real purpose is… super odd.
posted by whitewall at 3:24 AM on July 5, 2021 [48 favorites]
If 0 is completely abnormal and 10 is completely normal, I’d say it’s like a 0.5.
Yes, flag burning is a thing. But it is a very provocative act and generally done at large protests to make a huge statement. So to casually replicate the same act as a joke (?) in a group setting with no real warning and for no real purpose is… super odd.
posted by whitewall at 3:24 AM on July 5, 2021 [48 favorites]
This is completely not normal, and I too am shocked. Flag burning is protected speech, but it's generally seen as a grave act, not a juvenile joke. I support people's right to burn the flag as a serious protest, but I would have walked out of this party (not blaming you for staying - just saying this since you want reactions). I know politics in academia can be fraught, but I really hope you can find better friends than these. I think this action is insulting to people who are serious protesters taking real risks. I am trying to imagine doing something equivalent when I lived abroad, and I really cannot.
I would hope this would not affect your immigration status since no crime was committed, but I could also see some anti-immigrant, right-wing politician getting wind of this and using it to rile people up (I think this is very unlikely, but not impossible). To set your mind at rest, it might be a good idea to talk to your immigration attorney.
I'm sorry you had to deal with this.
posted by FencingGal at 4:45 AM on July 5, 2021 [7 favorites]
I would hope this would not affect your immigration status since no crime was committed, but I could also see some anti-immigrant, right-wing politician getting wind of this and using it to rile people up (I think this is very unlikely, but not impossible). To set your mind at rest, it might be a good idea to talk to your immigration attorney.
I'm sorry you had to deal with this.
posted by FencingGal at 4:45 AM on July 5, 2021 [7 favorites]
For context, I am the Virginia-born daughter of Indian immigrants, one of whom is now a citizen and the other of whom just received a green card; I am politically leftist; I work at a large university; and I would find this absolutely appalling.
You want to invite people to a flag burning party, you make that clear upfront. You don't invite people -- much less people you barely know -- to a casual picnic/BBQ/get-together and then start burning flags like a joke (????) It not only puts your guests in a weird position, but it also cheapens the idea of flag-burning as an act of political protest.
From the outside, this is not at all normal behavior, but sadly, as smorgasbord says, it's also the sort of blinkered privilege that thrives in the academic world, at least in the US. It sounds like your partner, being new, doesn't have the social capital to push back, but they should be keeping an eye out to see if this is an example of institutional/departmental culture (e.g. if someone with authority -- whether the host of a party or a department chair or the provost -- proposes something atypical, do others just go along with it, or is there conscious consideration of other perspectives), or was this a strange one-off fueled by alcohol and the summer heat.
posted by basalganglia at 4:46 AM on July 5, 2021 [35 favorites]
You want to invite people to a flag burning party, you make that clear upfront. You don't invite people -- much less people you barely know -- to a casual picnic/BBQ/get-together and then start burning flags like a joke (????) It not only puts your guests in a weird position, but it also cheapens the idea of flag-burning as an act of political protest.
From the outside, this is not at all normal behavior, but sadly, as smorgasbord says, it's also the sort of blinkered privilege that thrives in the academic world, at least in the US. It sounds like your partner, being new, doesn't have the social capital to push back, but they should be keeping an eye out to see if this is an example of institutional/departmental culture (e.g. if someone with authority -- whether the host of a party or a department chair or the provost -- proposes something atypical, do others just go along with it, or is there conscious consideration of other perspectives), or was this a strange one-off fueled by alcohol and the summer heat.
posted by basalganglia at 4:46 AM on July 5, 2021 [35 favorites]
This is extremely abnormal and I think you are right to be concerned about the reaction if this was publicized. It is absolutely a Trumpian wet dream and frankly if identities were attached to people in the video--especially those who immigrated to the US--I would be in fear for their safety. I don't know how much an effect it would have on a green card application but all it takes is one immigration official recognizing your name. In your position I would ask the guest(s?) to delete the video and take it down anywhere it was posted. I would also not hang out with these people again--their behavior was stupid and thoughtless and it is fucked up they socially coerced people to participate and then people took video of that participation.
posted by Anonymous at 5:08 AM on July 5, 2021
posted by Anonymous at 5:08 AM on July 5, 2021
I have been teaching for 15 years at a public university with a left-wing reputation and a decent number of hard-left faculty members, and "gaily burning flags at a July 4 barbecue" is so wildly far outside the norms of behavior here that it hasn't even occurred to the state legislature to accuse us of it.
posted by escabeche at 6:31 AM on July 5, 2021 [36 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 6:31 AM on July 5, 2021 [36 favorites]
Unfortunately, there's some striking parallels between you and the hosts: both immigrants, both work at the same university, similar enough socially that you went to the same party, they just got green cards while you're applying to get them... Given that, and given that their flag burning was in response to getting a green card, I think you need to be extra careful about distancing yourself from them socially and legally. They were given a privilege by the American government and responded by destroying an American icon, and now you're applying for the exact same privilege - it looks bad, worse than if their flag-burning joke was for something unrelated, like protesting the price of cheese at the grocery store. I realize that's unfair to you since you didn't know what situation you were walking into, but like I said, the parallels are striking and creating distance will help you with the 99% of America who would not be OK with their joke.
posted by sdrawkcaSSAb at 6:38 AM on July 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by sdrawkcaSSAb at 6:38 AM on July 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
Okay, I laughed reading this thinking about a bunch of adults standing around a grill burning tiny American flags and being like, yeah, take that America. I know a lot of leftists, I myself am one, and no this is not at all common.
As far as the video I wouldn’t be too worried. Is there the tiniest sliver of a chance that something could come of it? Sure, but it’s incredibly unlikely. I don’t know that there is anything to be done at this point anyway other than to think through how much time you want to spend with these people moving forward.
posted by scantee at 7:28 AM on July 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
As far as the video I wouldn’t be too worried. Is there the tiniest sliver of a chance that something could come of it? Sure, but it’s incredibly unlikely. I don’t know that there is anything to be done at this point anyway other than to think through how much time you want to spend with these people moving forward.
posted by scantee at 7:28 AM on July 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is so outside the norm that I would ask your post be anonymized and wait for this video to become viral and everyone at this party lives be upended by conservative blogs/media.
posted by sandmanwv at 7:30 AM on July 5, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by sandmanwv at 7:30 AM on July 5, 2021 [14 favorites]
I would be most worried about your partner's future drama with such batshit colleagues. Yikes. Head down!
posted by athirstforsalt at 7:42 AM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by athirstforsalt at 7:42 AM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
As a US-born academic who is a bit to the left of most of my colleagues and friends, who are left of most people in the US, I wouldn't be at all surprised to encounter this at a party. Shouting "fuck patriotism" into the void isn't productive, but harmless and dumb venting of frustration can be a lot of fun. And growing up watching the way many is the US react to the 4th makes it hard not to be openly scornful of the holiday.
At a party among colleagues one doesn't know well, it does seem a bit forward to assume everyone would be eager to participate. I suspect it probably means they think of you as a close friend, for whatever that's worth. I *would* be surprised to see it filmed or shared in public. Asking people to either not share or remove you from videos is entirely appropriate.
posted by eotvos at 8:09 AM on July 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
At a party among colleagues one doesn't know well, it does seem a bit forward to assume everyone would be eager to participate. I suspect it probably means they think of you as a close friend, for whatever that's worth. I *would* be surprised to see it filmed or shared in public. Asking people to either not share or remove you from videos is entirely appropriate.
posted by eotvos at 8:09 AM on July 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm also an academic and could see this happening among a subset of acquaintances that are to the left of me and even specifically in this exact context- someone whose general frame of mind was "screw the concept of nation states in general and the US in particular" had to get permanent residency or citizenship and wanted to express how they felt about that. Intelligent and kind colleagues though likely would not post it anywhere and would take steps to protect anyone in a precarious position.
posted by damayanti at 8:27 AM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by damayanti at 8:27 AM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm an American academic, but have only ever been based in the East Coast, Midwest, and South. I'm lefty, and even at the most lefty-institution I've been affiliated with, this is hard to imagine happening. What's not unusual is academics being skeptical or actively hostile to July 4th. I've gone to more than one academic-hosted 4th of July party where Frederick Douglass' "Fourth of July" speech got read at some point. It also wouldn't surprise me if I learned that a few of my lefty colleagues got together to burn flags as a cathartic activity - nor would I judge them for it.
But as others have pointed out, what's bizarre is the assumption the hosts made that everyone at the party would be into this, including their new colleague + partner they had never/barely met! In my experience, academics are generally polite to a fault and generally avoid making people feel uncomfortable for no good reason.
I also think you're right to be worried about this video - "radical left professors that hate America and are using tax payer dollars to convert your kids to communism" is a wet dream of the far right. I'd tell the host you're concerned due to your immigration status, and I'd get the contact info of the person who took the video- and I'd ask them either to delete it or at the very least, not post it anywhere, no matter how "private" they think their Instagram/FB/etc. is - if this did get out to the right wing media, it would go viral.
posted by coffeecat at 9:49 AM on July 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
But as others have pointed out, what's bizarre is the assumption the hosts made that everyone at the party would be into this, including their new colleague + partner they had never/barely met! In my experience, academics are generally polite to a fault and generally avoid making people feel uncomfortable for no good reason.
I also think you're right to be worried about this video - "radical left professors that hate America and are using tax payer dollars to convert your kids to communism" is a wet dream of the far right. I'd tell the host you're concerned due to your immigration status, and I'd get the contact info of the person who took the video- and I'd ask them either to delete it or at the very least, not post it anywhere, no matter how "private" they think their Instagram/FB/etc. is - if this did get out to the right wing media, it would go viral.
posted by coffeecat at 9:49 AM on July 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
This was careless and irresponsible, putting you at remote risk and making you so uncomfortable. It should be obvious that you are on a visa, and that flag-burning is extremely touchy. It should not affect your ability to stay in the US, but could theoretically affect a future job. I would ask people who took pictures to delete any that show you.
Welcome to the US; most people are not this way. Some are worse, but most are terrific.
posted by theora55 at 9:52 AM on July 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
Welcome to the US; most people are not this way. Some are worse, but most are terrific.
posted by theora55 at 9:52 AM on July 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is so strange to me! I have no particular affection for the American flag (I generally regard it as a piece of fabric), but I would also be puzzled and shocked to see something like this so casually at a backyard barbecue. Like, I am very confused! It almost sounds like something set up to test people's reactions. Yet, I wouldn't be surprised to see someone burn an American flag at a protest or large event. The context is baffling.
I'm sorry for the stress of this. I bet it will be okay. It is very weird.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:15 PM on July 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry for the stress of this. I bet it will be okay. It is very weird.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:15 PM on July 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I am a super lefty person on the West Coast in a city known for activism and this host actually sounds like someone to avoid. Protesting is a right, flag burning is constitutionally protected speech. It's something you'd do in public to make a serious point, not as a fun party activity because you just got a green card and it's the 4th of July. Roping other people you whose politics and personal feelings toward the US are unknown just seems kind of performatively self-centered.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:26 PM on July 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 5:26 PM on July 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
So the question is really, "does anyone have discretionary power to deny visas and/or green cards?" I think the answer is yes in the case of your visa, but I don't know on green cards.
However, the likelihood of this video somehow getting into the files of the State Department with your name attached is much closer to "none" than to "slim" on the slim-to-none scale of odds.
posted by Sunburnt at 12:26 AM on July 5, 2021 [10 favorites]