What is living in NYC like, relative to other East Coast cities?
June 24, 2021 10:50 AM Subscribe
I'm interested in possibly living in New York City in the future, which is something I've always wanted to do. I've lived in very dense walkable parts of Philadelphia and Boston and loved it, and am trying to get a sense of how NYC would compare, both in terms of the experience and the cost.
Whenever I have visited NYC, it has always seemed to me substantially *less* convenient than living in Boston or Philly: because it is so big, my impression was that most places I needed to go were substantially further away. For instance, in downtown Philadelphia, I could walk to a real grocery store in 5 minutes, and five more grocery stores within another 10-15 minutes. Pretty much everything I wanted to go to was walkable in 15-20 minutes max. Boston was similar. How is NYC feel relative to this? Where I was staying in NYC, I found walkable grocery access difficult except for expensive stores that had limited selection.
I'm also curious about people's sense of cost of living. How do prices compare to other East Coast cities for various things - food, housing, drinks and dinner out, events (symphony, other cultural events)? How much more would I have to be making in NYC to feel the same, income-wise?
I'd also like to hear any more personal reflections on how NYC compares to other large American cities, especially East Coast ones. Did you enjoy living there relative to other American cities? What did it feel like in terms of greenery, noise, dirt, rats, cultural amenities, or anything else? What were the similarities and differences that were striking to you?
(Without knowing NYC very well, but based on my previous visits, I'm tentatively interested in living on the Upper West Side or maybe further north into Morningside Heights, Harlem, or even further. I'm also interested in some of Brooklyn. But this move is definitely not any time soon, if it happens, and I haven't done much neighborhood research yet, so none of this is set at all.)
Whenever I have visited NYC, it has always seemed to me substantially *less* convenient than living in Boston or Philly: because it is so big, my impression was that most places I needed to go were substantially further away. For instance, in downtown Philadelphia, I could walk to a real grocery store in 5 minutes, and five more grocery stores within another 10-15 minutes. Pretty much everything I wanted to go to was walkable in 15-20 minutes max. Boston was similar. How is NYC feel relative to this? Where I was staying in NYC, I found walkable grocery access difficult except for expensive stores that had limited selection.
I'm also curious about people's sense of cost of living. How do prices compare to other East Coast cities for various things - food, housing, drinks and dinner out, events (symphony, other cultural events)? How much more would I have to be making in NYC to feel the same, income-wise?
I'd also like to hear any more personal reflections on how NYC compares to other large American cities, especially East Coast ones. Did you enjoy living there relative to other American cities? What did it feel like in terms of greenery, noise, dirt, rats, cultural amenities, or anything else? What were the similarities and differences that were striking to you?
(Without knowing NYC very well, but based on my previous visits, I'm tentatively interested in living on the Upper West Side or maybe further north into Morningside Heights, Harlem, or even further. I'm also interested in some of Brooklyn. But this move is definitely not any time soon, if it happens, and I haven't done much neighborhood research yet, so none of this is set at all.)
You're absolutely right that New York City is big - and that is why the answers to your questions depend on where in New York City you are.
I currently live in an apartment where I am 5 minutes' walk from one grocery store (a real grocery store), I am ten minutes' walk from work, and from work I am about 5 minutes' walk from another grocery store. I am about to move to an apartment where I am only one block away from a grocery store. Both of these apartments are within the same neighborhood in Brooklyn, though, which tends to be more "neighborhood-y"; then again, the apartment I was in before this was also only about 5 minutes or so from a grocery store.
Depending on where you stayed when you visited, that may be affecting your perspective; if you were around Times Square, you'd probably have a bit of a hike to "residential" services, since that caters more to tourists, who typically aren't grocery shopping. The Upper West Side also tends to have more luxury apartment buildings, where people may be more likely to order delivery via Instacart so they don't need a grocery store in walking distance. Conversely, the number of grocery stores picks up in Morningside Heights, where the buildings are less fancy (and where the Columbia students may have a need for grocery stores).
"Where you live" and "what you're into" also greatly affects the standard-of-living. I'm making a salary which is just about right for my shared Brooklyn duplex apartment, but which wouldn't be ANYWHERE near what I would need for a similar apartment near Central Park. And at the other end of the spectrum, it's enough for me to afford a three-bedroom apartment with dedicated parking out on Staten Island. And honestly, if it were as easy for me to commute to work from Staten Island as it is to commute from where I am now, I'd consider that.
I would instead think in terms of what kind of standard of living you want - what is your maximum preferred commute, what size apartment you want, your budget, proximity to grocery stores - and then find a neighborhood based on that. If you have your heart set on walkability-to-grocery-stores, but are comfortable with an hour's commute each way into Manhattan, you can go further north on Manhattan island, even as far north as Inwood where the rents are considerably cheaper, and be quite happy. Or you can look into parts of north Brooklyn (where even here "how much is the rent" depends greatly on what neighborhood you're looking at). Conversely, if you really want a short commute but you're comfortable with a tinier apartment, you can look at neighborhoods closer to where you work.
At the end of the day, it is possible to find just about any kind of living situation you want in this city - because it is so big. You may have to trade off some of the wish-list items, but that would be true of any city you'd be living in.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:15 AM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
I currently live in an apartment where I am 5 minutes' walk from one grocery store (a real grocery store), I am ten minutes' walk from work, and from work I am about 5 minutes' walk from another grocery store. I am about to move to an apartment where I am only one block away from a grocery store. Both of these apartments are within the same neighborhood in Brooklyn, though, which tends to be more "neighborhood-y"; then again, the apartment I was in before this was also only about 5 minutes or so from a grocery store.
Depending on where you stayed when you visited, that may be affecting your perspective; if you were around Times Square, you'd probably have a bit of a hike to "residential" services, since that caters more to tourists, who typically aren't grocery shopping. The Upper West Side also tends to have more luxury apartment buildings, where people may be more likely to order delivery via Instacart so they don't need a grocery store in walking distance. Conversely, the number of grocery stores picks up in Morningside Heights, where the buildings are less fancy (and where the Columbia students may have a need for grocery stores).
"Where you live" and "what you're into" also greatly affects the standard-of-living. I'm making a salary which is just about right for my shared Brooklyn duplex apartment, but which wouldn't be ANYWHERE near what I would need for a similar apartment near Central Park. And at the other end of the spectrum, it's enough for me to afford a three-bedroom apartment with dedicated parking out on Staten Island. And honestly, if it were as easy for me to commute to work from Staten Island as it is to commute from where I am now, I'd consider that.
I would instead think in terms of what kind of standard of living you want - what is your maximum preferred commute, what size apartment you want, your budget, proximity to grocery stores - and then find a neighborhood based on that. If you have your heart set on walkability-to-grocery-stores, but are comfortable with an hour's commute each way into Manhattan, you can go further north on Manhattan island, even as far north as Inwood where the rents are considerably cheaper, and be quite happy. Or you can look into parts of north Brooklyn (where even here "how much is the rent" depends greatly on what neighborhood you're looking at). Conversely, if you really want a short commute but you're comfortable with a tinier apartment, you can look at neighborhoods closer to where you work.
At the end of the day, it is possible to find just about any kind of living situation you want in this city - because it is so big. You may have to trade off some of the wish-list items, but that would be true of any city you'd be living in.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:15 AM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
To me the single biggest convenience of living in NYC is walkability to everything I need, so it's interesting that you perceive it as less walkable than other cities. But like umwhat said, so much comes down to the neighborhood. I live in the southern part of Park Slope, and I have three substantial grocery stores in easy walking distance. Laundry, bars, hardware stores, pharmacies and an amazing park are also in easy walking distance. This was decidedly NOT my experience living in Boston, even if Boston is more "walkable" in terms of being able to walk from one end to the other in a relatively short period of time. The public transportation options, while not perfect, are substantial compared to the cities you named - I live by three subway lines, and getting to Manhattan is quick.
On the other hand, I pay a lot of money for these conveniences! I'm from Boston where the cost of living has skyrocketed since I moved away, making it less of a viable choice for me to return. But if I *did* move back, I could probably get a slightly bigger space and a yard (a yard!!!!!) for what I am paying in Brooklyn. Unless you have a REALLY generous budget to work with, you miss out on certain little things that people in other places take for granted, like outdoor space and more than like, two rooms to share with your partner. Life is filled with tradeoffs right?
I think NYC is great if you can comfortably afford to live here, but not worth it if you just want to be here for its own sake. If you are just looking to live here because you think it would be exciting to live in in NYC, think a lot about what your finances would be. For the first few years I was here, I was eking out a paycheck to paycheck existence and it kind of sucked. This is a great city to live in if you can afford to do it comfortably, but the quality of life is pretty "meh" when you're broke. There are many other cool cities to check out and most of them are cheaper and easier to do on a budget.
posted by cakelite at 11:24 AM on June 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
On the other hand, I pay a lot of money for these conveniences! I'm from Boston where the cost of living has skyrocketed since I moved away, making it less of a viable choice for me to return. But if I *did* move back, I could probably get a slightly bigger space and a yard (a yard!!!!!) for what I am paying in Brooklyn. Unless you have a REALLY generous budget to work with, you miss out on certain little things that people in other places take for granted, like outdoor space and more than like, two rooms to share with your partner. Life is filled with tradeoffs right?
I think NYC is great if you can comfortably afford to live here, but not worth it if you just want to be here for its own sake. If you are just looking to live here because you think it would be exciting to live in in NYC, think a lot about what your finances would be. For the first few years I was here, I was eking out a paycheck to paycheck existence and it kind of sucked. This is a great city to live in if you can afford to do it comfortably, but the quality of life is pretty "meh" when you're broke. There are many other cool cities to check out and most of them are cheaper and easier to do on a budget.
posted by cakelite at 11:24 AM on June 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
I've split most of my adult life between Boston and NYC, and am now back in NYC, possibly for the duration. I'm very fond of both, but there are distinct, though sometimes subtle, differences. (And, as umwhat says, what corner you choose to set up in can have a dramatic effect. The lifestyle of someone in remote Queens tends to be pretty different from that of someone living in the EV. I'm going to talk mostly about Manhattan, which is what I know well.)
The grocery store situation has improved significantly in the last few years, with Whole Foods filling in at the high-ish end and TJ's at the low-middle. It's still not ideal, with a hole right in the middle-middle. I'd gladly trade at least two of the nearby food places for a single Star Market/Shaw's. But I can't say I have a shortage of grocery stores to shop at.
As a general matter, I've found the various places I've lived in Manhattan (and I have been nearly all over) are more convenient for other kinds of portable shopping than Boston. More options and more accessible by transit. When I returned to NYC after a Boston stint, I was really struck by the greater profusion and variety of goods everywhere. Like the little convenience store in my office building's lobby had three times as much stuff as the equivalent in Boston. Prices are a little higher in NYC for ordinary goods; not as much as you might think.
Rent is also higher than in Boston--but, again, not as much as you might think. (I think the bigger difference lies in what your dollar buys, in terms of amenities or size. Until you get into "luxury" housing, a one-bed in NY will usually be smaller, have a significantly worse kitchen, and no amenities to speak of vs. the comparable one-bed in Boston.) You can look on Streeteasy to get some idea of what you might have to pay for what you think you might want. There are way fewer of those nice easy old-fashioned triple-deckers (basically none in Manhattan) and charming five-story non-tenement apartment buildings from 1922 in NYC. Overall, I think I like the Boston housing stock better. Aesthetic preference. I've lived in some places with real character here, there were just tradeoffs.
Boston is much less welcoming to the night owl than NYC pre-pandemic was, especially if you're not affiliated with one of the major universities. Not just in terms of nightclubs, but also stores and public spaces. I often felt like the city was rolling up its sidewalks around 9 pm. It made me kind of mopey. But not everyone cares about that.
Pre-pandemic, I just felt much freer in NYC than in Boston. I knew I could go almost anywhere at almost any time. You can get more places on foot. Transit takes you further. Everything's open later. There's more of everything, and more variety. More and better free stuff, too. Everything changes faster. I find I need a dose of this to keep myself on an even mental keel. But, again, this is a matter of personal preference. Some people find this oppressive. I can't say they're being unreasonable. I am judicious about keeping up travel (in normal times) to keep myself from getting overwhelmed.
On average, Boston is prettier than NYC. This is of limited importance, perhaps, as your experience of beauty is affected less by the average than the extreme, but I think it's fair to say that foliage and water and beautiful old human-scale buildings are more evenly distributed around Boston than they are in NYC. Going whale-watching in Boston Harbor is more remote from the urban experience than any of the NYC harbor cruises or ferries. Etc. NYC is also probably dirtier, but if you've spent a lot of time in Philly, you're probably hardened to that.
Depending on what kind of job you have, there's a lot more ambition in NYC than in Boston. Unsurprisingly, there's good and bad in that. It's nice to have the fresh young energy, to see people determined to do the best at whatever. I myself have appreciated the greater sophistication of work available to me in my profession. But if the goals at which all that energy is directed are bad or trivial, then it all can seem very stupid and futile.
N.B.: Not that NYC isn't, but Boston is extra racist. Again, coming back on trips to NYC from Boston, I was often struck by just the visual diversity in the streets as against Boston's lack thereof. Boston is really segregated. If you're white, it affects you much less directly, but I feel much more comfortable in an area with more mixed demographics.
posted by praemunire at 11:37 AM on June 24, 2021 [15 favorites]
The grocery store situation has improved significantly in the last few years, with Whole Foods filling in at the high-ish end and TJ's at the low-middle. It's still not ideal, with a hole right in the middle-middle. I'd gladly trade at least two of the nearby food places for a single Star Market/Shaw's. But I can't say I have a shortage of grocery stores to shop at.
As a general matter, I've found the various places I've lived in Manhattan (and I have been nearly all over) are more convenient for other kinds of portable shopping than Boston. More options and more accessible by transit. When I returned to NYC after a Boston stint, I was really struck by the greater profusion and variety of goods everywhere. Like the little convenience store in my office building's lobby had three times as much stuff as the equivalent in Boston. Prices are a little higher in NYC for ordinary goods; not as much as you might think.
Rent is also higher than in Boston--but, again, not as much as you might think. (I think the bigger difference lies in what your dollar buys, in terms of amenities or size. Until you get into "luxury" housing, a one-bed in NY will usually be smaller, have a significantly worse kitchen, and no amenities to speak of vs. the comparable one-bed in Boston.) You can look on Streeteasy to get some idea of what you might have to pay for what you think you might want. There are way fewer of those nice easy old-fashioned triple-deckers (basically none in Manhattan) and charming five-story non-tenement apartment buildings from 1922 in NYC. Overall, I think I like the Boston housing stock better. Aesthetic preference. I've lived in some places with real character here, there were just tradeoffs.
Boston is much less welcoming to the night owl than NYC pre-pandemic was, especially if you're not affiliated with one of the major universities. Not just in terms of nightclubs, but also stores and public spaces. I often felt like the city was rolling up its sidewalks around 9 pm. It made me kind of mopey. But not everyone cares about that.
Pre-pandemic, I just felt much freer in NYC than in Boston. I knew I could go almost anywhere at almost any time. You can get more places on foot. Transit takes you further. Everything's open later. There's more of everything, and more variety. More and better free stuff, too. Everything changes faster. I find I need a dose of this to keep myself on an even mental keel. But, again, this is a matter of personal preference. Some people find this oppressive. I can't say they're being unreasonable. I am judicious about keeping up travel (in normal times) to keep myself from getting overwhelmed.
On average, Boston is prettier than NYC. This is of limited importance, perhaps, as your experience of beauty is affected less by the average than the extreme, but I think it's fair to say that foliage and water and beautiful old human-scale buildings are more evenly distributed around Boston than they are in NYC. Going whale-watching in Boston Harbor is more remote from the urban experience than any of the NYC harbor cruises or ferries. Etc. NYC is also probably dirtier, but if you've spent a lot of time in Philly, you're probably hardened to that.
Depending on what kind of job you have, there's a lot more ambition in NYC than in Boston. Unsurprisingly, there's good and bad in that. It's nice to have the fresh young energy, to see people determined to do the best at whatever. I myself have appreciated the greater sophistication of work available to me in my profession. But if the goals at which all that energy is directed are bad or trivial, then it all can seem very stupid and futile.
N.B.: Not that NYC isn't, but Boston is extra racist. Again, coming back on trips to NYC from Boston, I was often struck by just the visual diversity in the streets as against Boston's lack thereof. Boston is really segregated. If you're white, it affects you much less directly, but I feel much more comfortable in an area with more mixed demographics.
posted by praemunire at 11:37 AM on June 24, 2021 [15 favorites]
I've lived in all three. You didn't ask specifically, but I think it's worth sharing that of them, New York is easily where I felt the safest. I could go on a long walk by myself at any time of night without thinking twice. That is probably the thing I miss the most about New York.
While it's geographically large, residential neighborhoods tend to have all the things that you need. There is some cultural acclimation required; in my experience, New Yorkers are much more likely to shop in multiple stores/farmers markets/fruit stands/bakeries/etc for groceries, rather than a single supermarket--the consequence is that supermarkets are disproportionately overpriced, as you noticed, because you pay a premium to have that one-stop shopping experience. It can take some time to figure out the various sources of groceries in your neighborhood and shop like a native.
I grew up in New York so, to me, it is the city, and Philly and Boston are more like big towns. Touching on the specific things you asked about, I don't think it's significantly dirtier nor has more pests (Boston is where I think there is the most, shall we say, laissez-faire relationship with vermin). There's plenty of greenspace in all three. The cultural amenities are incomparable.
posted by telegraph at 12:11 PM on June 24, 2021
While it's geographically large, residential neighborhoods tend to have all the things that you need. There is some cultural acclimation required; in my experience, New Yorkers are much more likely to shop in multiple stores/farmers markets/fruit stands/bakeries/etc for groceries, rather than a single supermarket--the consequence is that supermarkets are disproportionately overpriced, as you noticed, because you pay a premium to have that one-stop shopping experience. It can take some time to figure out the various sources of groceries in your neighborhood and shop like a native.
I grew up in New York so, to me, it is the city, and Philly and Boston are more like big towns. Touching on the specific things you asked about, I don't think it's significantly dirtier nor has more pests (Boston is where I think there is the most, shall we say, laissez-faire relationship with vermin). There's plenty of greenspace in all three. The cultural amenities are incomparable.
posted by telegraph at 12:11 PM on June 24, 2021
As a counterpoint to praemunire's comment about whale-watching above: it is actually surprising how accessible the natural world is in New York City, despite its size. There are some major parks in the outer boroughs with hiking trails, including one enormous one on Staten Island where I've gone on a 7-mile hike that was 95% all woods and I even saw a five-point buck.
You can also find kayak clubs that will let you try a paddle for free, and if you volunteer with them they will let you join in on some of their longer trips. A friend of mine even owns his own kayak and uses it to fish in the harbor (and we have a standing agreement that I will take any excess bluefish he catches). There is even a national campground in the southern end of Brooklyn.
Even though it's in the outskirts of the city, all of this is still accessible on public transit; especially now that the city's ferry system is ramping up. And if you really want a backcountry hike, that's just a light-rail ride away, either up along the Hudson or out on Long Island.
Also, closer to home - in terms of culture, it is ridiculous how many free concerts and movies and events there are in the summer. Most of the parks roll out some kind of "weekly summer movies" event, usually showing something that's a year or so old, and you're sitting outside on your own picnic blanket or something. But it's free. There is even a company that does free Shakespeare every summer, doing a little repertory tour of five or six different city parks in turn.
And lest anyone think this has been my salvo in a New-York-V.-Boston pissing match - I am pleased to report that most New Yorkers have stopped teasing me about how I'm retaining my Boston Red Sox allegiance. :-)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:15 PM on June 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
You can also find kayak clubs that will let you try a paddle for free, and if you volunteer with them they will let you join in on some of their longer trips. A friend of mine even owns his own kayak and uses it to fish in the harbor (and we have a standing agreement that I will take any excess bluefish he catches). There is even a national campground in the southern end of Brooklyn.
Even though it's in the outskirts of the city, all of this is still accessible on public transit; especially now that the city's ferry system is ramping up. And if you really want a backcountry hike, that's just a light-rail ride away, either up along the Hudson or out on Long Island.
Also, closer to home - in terms of culture, it is ridiculous how many free concerts and movies and events there are in the summer. Most of the parks roll out some kind of "weekly summer movies" event, usually showing something that's a year or so old, and you're sitting outside on your own picnic blanket or something. But it's free. There is even a company that does free Shakespeare every summer, doing a little repertory tour of five or six different city parks in turn.
And lest anyone think this has been my salvo in a New-York-V.-Boston pissing match - I am pleased to report that most New Yorkers have stopped teasing me about how I'm retaining my Boston Red Sox allegiance. :-)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:15 PM on June 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
I am clearly a little evangelical about New York City, so feel free to take things with a grain of salt, but there's another point to consider:
You can find a restaurant serving cuisine from practically any food culture on earth here. You may have to make a little pilgrimage out to an outer borough and make your way down to a basement food court and sit on a folding stool, but it will be worth it when you have the mind-blowing Uighur cumin-lamb sandwich or the vegan spin on Columbian arepas or the old-school Ukranian piroshki or the Ethiopian wet or the proper British high tea that you went there to find.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:53 PM on June 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
You can find a restaurant serving cuisine from practically any food culture on earth here. You may have to make a little pilgrimage out to an outer borough and make your way down to a basement food court and sit on a folding stool, but it will be worth it when you have the mind-blowing Uighur cumin-lamb sandwich or the vegan spin on Columbian arepas or the old-school Ukranian piroshki or the Ethiopian wet or the proper British high tea that you went there to find.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:53 PM on June 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
It's admittedly been a minute since I lived in NYC (in my case, Brooklyn), but I've kept up somewhat with regular visits to friends (at least, until lately for obvious reasons).
Food: nothing beats it, and I've lived in some other spots known for their food, but NYC has pretty much every cuisine you could dream of and at every price point to boot. I found when I left (for a small city) the cost of going out generally went up for me.
I'd say NYC is way cleaner than Philly (and some other cities). I mean, yeah, it's got some dirtier spots, but the amount of regular street cleanings makes and sanitation staff keep it up to a certain level.
Related to the above point, the fact that there is so much wealth means that some of the local taxes do filter down to everyone - lots of free or subsidized arts programming, better than average public transportation (at least for the US), solid medicaid, etc.
You mention walking, but if you've got a bicycle, despite the fact that yes, traffic can be nuts, I basically got everywhere on my bike and felt much more safe doing so in NYC than in other cities - bike lanes are relatively widespread, cars are rarely going fast due to traffic, and drivers tend to be more used to sharing the road (again, compared to most US cities I've lived).
I was barely making any money when I lived in Brooklyn, which was easier to do 10 years ago - but I think it's good to remember that people of all incomes live in NYC. Most museums have free days. I found the big grocery chains and produce stalls in Brooklyn to be cheaper than in other cities. Housing is the hardest cost to avoid, but I never felt like I had to spend more on other aspects of life than I would elsewhere.
In terms of noise, I lived on a busy street (with a bus line) but my bedroom was garden-side, and it was really quiet.
I miss the city and may also one day try to move back, and I'd say the main reason why is that I really enjoy the frenetic-humanity-in-your-face quality of daily life. Some people find this part of NYC to be draining, but I found it energizing.
Oh, and NYC is far more welcoming of outsiders into the fold of "New Yorker." If you've lived in NYC for a decade or so, you are allowed to become a New Yorker. Whereas in other East Coast cities I've been (including Boston and Philly), there is a strong territorialism over who gets to claim the city.
posted by coffeecat at 12:54 PM on June 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
Food: nothing beats it, and I've lived in some other spots known for their food, but NYC has pretty much every cuisine you could dream of and at every price point to boot. I found when I left (for a small city) the cost of going out generally went up for me.
I'd say NYC is way cleaner than Philly (and some other cities). I mean, yeah, it's got some dirtier spots, but the amount of regular street cleanings makes and sanitation staff keep it up to a certain level.
Related to the above point, the fact that there is so much wealth means that some of the local taxes do filter down to everyone - lots of free or subsidized arts programming, better than average public transportation (at least for the US), solid medicaid, etc.
You mention walking, but if you've got a bicycle, despite the fact that yes, traffic can be nuts, I basically got everywhere on my bike and felt much more safe doing so in NYC than in other cities - bike lanes are relatively widespread, cars are rarely going fast due to traffic, and drivers tend to be more used to sharing the road (again, compared to most US cities I've lived).
I was barely making any money when I lived in Brooklyn, which was easier to do 10 years ago - but I think it's good to remember that people of all incomes live in NYC. Most museums have free days. I found the big grocery chains and produce stalls in Brooklyn to be cheaper than in other cities. Housing is the hardest cost to avoid, but I never felt like I had to spend more on other aspects of life than I would elsewhere.
In terms of noise, I lived on a busy street (with a bus line) but my bedroom was garden-side, and it was really quiet.
I miss the city and may also one day try to move back, and I'd say the main reason why is that I really enjoy the frenetic-humanity-in-your-face quality of daily life. Some people find this part of NYC to be draining, but I found it energizing.
Oh, and NYC is far more welcoming of outsiders into the fold of "New Yorker." If you've lived in NYC for a decade or so, you are allowed to become a New Yorker. Whereas in other East Coast cities I've been (including Boston and Philly), there is a strong territorialism over who gets to claim the city.
posted by coffeecat at 12:54 PM on June 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
I am pleased to report that most New Yorkers have stopped teasing me about how I'm retaining my Boston Red Sox allegiance
You can maintain a long and happy NYC existence despising and rooting against all the major NYC sports teams. Ask me how!
I still think that, though neither of them ranks with some of the big West Coast cities in this regard, you can get to cheaper-to-access and realer (not just a preserve) nature more quickly from Boston than from Manhattan, especially without a car. And obviously Boston is closer to better skiing in the winter-time, if you do that. (Neither of them is really great about this, though. If this were a high priority for me, neither of them would be my choice. But I like having an option like Crane Beach available, at least post-black fly season.)
posted by praemunire at 12:55 PM on June 24, 2021
You can maintain a long and happy NYC existence despising and rooting against all the major NYC sports teams. Ask me how!
I still think that, though neither of them ranks with some of the big West Coast cities in this regard, you can get to cheaper-to-access and realer (not just a preserve) nature more quickly from Boston than from Manhattan, especially without a car. And obviously Boston is closer to better skiing in the winter-time, if you do that. (Neither of them is really great about this, though. If this were a high priority for me, neither of them would be my choice. But I like having an option like Crane Beach available, at least post-black fly season.)
posted by praemunire at 12:55 PM on June 24, 2021
I'll piggyback on what others are saying re: the amount of walkability and amenities like grocery stores etc really depends on your neighborhood, obviously, and almost everyone lives near a plethora of grocery stores, bodegas/delis, dry cleaners, pharmacies etc. Obviously there are food deserts in parts of the city as well as weird fancy quiet neighborhoods that are serviced by one bougie grocery store (for instance, I'm not quite sure where the hell people go when they need a hardware store or something and they live in Dumbo. Also, I don't know anyone who lives in Dumbo...). In either case - New York statistically has the lowest percentages of car ownership and highest percentages of public transit ridership in the US so you gotta trust that millions of people manage to live here happily and car-free.
I will say this: The size of the city only becomes daunting when it comes to your social life and when choosing a neighborhood, but not day to day living. Occasionally someone moves here, decides they want to live in like Astoria or something, because it's cheaper and closer to their office in midtown or both of those things, and that's great and all, but absolutely sucks if all of your friends live in Fort Greene and Clinton Hill and the Lower East Side. Vice versa if you decide to live in UWS but all of your friends live in BK. You'll still be able to walk to everything in your neighborhood no doubt, but also next thing you know you're taking a 1 hour and 15 minute subway ride just to meet a friend for brunch, or a 47 dollar cab ride home after some cocktails downtown. So yeah, the size of the city forces you to make calculations like that about where to live which are a little bit stressful. And with things like rent increases and job changes (depending on your career) you may find yourself having to make this calculation more than other places.
That said: I otherwise find NYC to be one of the easiest places to live and highest quality of life cities I've ever lived in. The trade offs are entirely worth it to me.
posted by windbox at 1:01 PM on June 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
I will say this: The size of the city only becomes daunting when it comes to your social life and when choosing a neighborhood, but not day to day living. Occasionally someone moves here, decides they want to live in like Astoria or something, because it's cheaper and closer to their office in midtown or both of those things, and that's great and all, but absolutely sucks if all of your friends live in Fort Greene and Clinton Hill and the Lower East Side. Vice versa if you decide to live in UWS but all of your friends live in BK. You'll still be able to walk to everything in your neighborhood no doubt, but also next thing you know you're taking a 1 hour and 15 minute subway ride just to meet a friend for brunch, or a 47 dollar cab ride home after some cocktails downtown. So yeah, the size of the city forces you to make calculations like that about where to live which are a little bit stressful. And with things like rent increases and job changes (depending on your career) you may find yourself having to make this calculation more than other places.
That said: I otherwise find NYC to be one of the easiest places to live and highest quality of life cities I've ever lived in. The trade offs are entirely worth it to me.
posted by windbox at 1:01 PM on June 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
One more New Yorker weighing in that NYC is incredibly livable, walkable, and most likely where you'd live you'd have proximity to what you need on a daily basis, including grocery stores, drug stores, coffee, etc.
I lived in Manhattan when I moved here 20 years ago. I came from the West coast with a short stint for grad school in Boston. I never took to Boston, found it boring and hard to break into, although I was wrapped up with my program, so that explains some of it. But it just felt conservative and uninteresting, and I was ready to leave when my program ended. Though I'm sure it has its high points! I know people who love it.
For me NYC had a break-in period of about 6 months, but I think that's normal. I was born and raised in the Bay Area, so it was an adjustment, but to me, the only downsides are the humid summers and these horrible bugs that sometimes find their way into your apartment at this time of year. May you live free of these, wherever you end up.
posted by swheatie at 1:20 PM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
I lived in Manhattan when I moved here 20 years ago. I came from the West coast with a short stint for grad school in Boston. I never took to Boston, found it boring and hard to break into, although I was wrapped up with my program, so that explains some of it. But it just felt conservative and uninteresting, and I was ready to leave when my program ended. Though I'm sure it has its high points! I know people who love it.
For me NYC had a break-in period of about 6 months, but I think that's normal. I was born and raised in the Bay Area, so it was an adjustment, but to me, the only downsides are the humid summers and these horrible bugs that sometimes find their way into your apartment at this time of year. May you live free of these, wherever you end up.
posted by swheatie at 1:20 PM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
It really does highly depend on where you live in NYC. And yeah, like windbox said, it really depends on where your friends and workplace are. I was lucky enough to have friends in Astoria (and relatively easily reachable by train from Astoria) and already have worked remotely for years when I moved here, sooooo...
When I was in the city at first, I sublet a place from a friend of a friend in East Harlem that in retrospect was an amazingly nice place to land—it was a penthouse apartment in a nice older building, and it gave me a nicely secure, quiet space to return to every day. It even had a dishwasher! I loved the walkability, diverse cultures, and proximity to transit, great food, and bars. The downsides were that it wasn't my space, I ended up sharing it with one of the owners when she was in town, and I wasn't ready to stay in the city at the time for various reasons.
When I moved back here later on, I first stayed in a long-term Airbnb in Astoria where I grew comfortable and made friends with the building manager, another artist. That space, an artistically furnished but not totally finished basement apartment, also had its downsides, but it was a lovely place to land for a while, it had a little yard (though it was winter and early spring, so I didn't make much use of it), and I got to know the neighborhood really well. I then moved upstairs for a while into a beautiful room full of light before the whole house got rented out by prior arrangement and I had to move on.
I started looking at long-term places to rent while I was there. Between better living situations, I ended up staying a month in an exorbitantly expensive basement apartment I later learned was an illegal Airbnb. The worst part? That'd be a tossup between a house literally being built on the other side of the wall from me and the fact that the internet barely crawled. I work remotely, so I ended up having to get a coworking space. That apartment also had a creepy hatch in the floor and an ant problem.
When I briefly looked at apartments on the Upper East Side in Manhattan during that time, I felt super lonely and annoyed just being there. Grocery stores were terribly far away, blocks were huge and hot and impersonal and relatively unshaded, every place I looked at felt like they were trying to scam me into accepting fewer amenities than advertised, and nothing felt human or alive. The nicest place I looked at there was all weird angles and had vertiginous outdoor stairs. It was so white. I hated all of it.
When I looked at apartments on the Lower East Side and East Village one day with a broker who basically tried to scare me and scam me, I saw places that were dirty bordering on disgusting (they deliberately started me there, I think, so the other dirty places they showed me would seem less bad). I saw places that were a little larger but with all weird angles and no view, and places that turned out to actually be a fifth-floor walk-up when I specifically requested no stairs that high. I essentially ran away and never looked back. I like visiting the part of the LES that has night life and bars, but I don't want to live there.
When I looked at apartments in Chinatown, I got shown a place that I literally couldn't wait near, it had such an awful garbage scent outside the restaurant on the first floor. Inside, the tiny, slippery open-window stairwell was encrusted with bird droppings; the apartment itself had the scent of fresh polyurethane. The broker basically ignored me. I'm not sure who the target renter for that apartment was, but it wasn't me.
I looked at one apartment in East Harlem where I went in the bathroom and saw baby roaches coming out of the sink. Bad news.
I looked at one apartment in the West Village where I loved the neighborhood, but it was a little far afield from where friends live or transit would normally take me. The broker initially stood me up, and it turned out that the only internet available was DSL. The building manager in that co-op was very kind while I waited that first time and told me about another listing nearby. But that other space, as well as the one space I actually liked on the Lower East Side, were both tiny for what I would've paid.
I found a beautiful basement apartment in West Harlem with a garden walk-out and lots of space. But it was only a 1-year deal (academics going on their sabbatical), plus a long walk from any amenities or transportation to get to where friends lived or places I might cowork. That's the other consideration, and that's what, along with my roommate at the time's willingness to look elsewhere, led me back to Astoria and Long Island City.
Along the way, I also looked at a place in Greenpoint (I have a few friends there) that was literally still being built when I toured it, with materials cheap and offgassing enough to trigger a bizarre migraine that unexpectedly put me in the hospital overnight. At the time, the future of the L was in question and transit options were scarce, which put me easily an hour from a lot of the people I wanted to see regularly or places I might cowork, so nothing about it was ideal. Basically everyone I know in Brooklyn for the most part only hangs out in Brooklyn, and it reminded me too much of South City in St. Louis in that regard.
So yeah, for all those reasons, I kept coming back to Astoria and Long Island City. I would've been happy here or in East Harlem again, I think, but this space in what is technically Dutch Kills turned out to be the best of all possible worlds for me. It's in a highly walkable, intensely diverse (among the most diverse in the world) neighborhood with lots of shops (grocery and otherwise) and restaurants and green space along the river and night life; it's right by the NW and not far from E, F, R, M, and 7 trains; and basically anywhere I need to get to regularly is accessible in 30 to 45 minutes via transit and a brief walk. I only looked seriously at places that had a balcony or yard access (or at very least a fire escape) and allowed pets, and I'm so thankful I made time to see this one last place. The last one turned out to be the best and only one for me, at least for now.
Long story short, the experience you might have here and the types of places you'll be able to afford and end up looking at will so highly vary, depending on your finances, your goals, and what you value. And you may (you almost certainly will) see a lot of places here that are highly unsuitable for you and your needs, if you do come here to scout it out. But I have no doubt there's somewhere in this city you might love and that would easily satisfy your criteria.
I'm not an evangelist of this city really—I'm a Midwesterner originally and I'm not really trying to be a New Yorker or claim some kind of identity, just to live here and enjoy it while I can. I'm fairly agnostic in that regard. But there is a lot about it that has grown on me, that I keep coming back to in a way that feels like home and that I miss when I'm not here. And there's really nothing like the queer, Latinx, and intersectional spaces here—I've been lucky enough to find living spaces that were all of the above. It's worth trying to see if you feel the same.
I don't know about Philly—I still haven't visited—but Boston definitely didn't feel as welcoming to me. It's fine to visit, but I can't see myself ever living there. Others have outlined some great reasons why.
posted by limeonaire at 1:25 PM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
When I was in the city at first, I sublet a place from a friend of a friend in East Harlem that in retrospect was an amazingly nice place to land—it was a penthouse apartment in a nice older building, and it gave me a nicely secure, quiet space to return to every day. It even had a dishwasher! I loved the walkability, diverse cultures, and proximity to transit, great food, and bars. The downsides were that it wasn't my space, I ended up sharing it with one of the owners when she was in town, and I wasn't ready to stay in the city at the time for various reasons.
When I moved back here later on, I first stayed in a long-term Airbnb in Astoria where I grew comfortable and made friends with the building manager, another artist. That space, an artistically furnished but not totally finished basement apartment, also had its downsides, but it was a lovely place to land for a while, it had a little yard (though it was winter and early spring, so I didn't make much use of it), and I got to know the neighborhood really well. I then moved upstairs for a while into a beautiful room full of light before the whole house got rented out by prior arrangement and I had to move on.
I started looking at long-term places to rent while I was there. Between better living situations, I ended up staying a month in an exorbitantly expensive basement apartment I later learned was an illegal Airbnb. The worst part? That'd be a tossup between a house literally being built on the other side of the wall from me and the fact that the internet barely crawled. I work remotely, so I ended up having to get a coworking space. That apartment also had a creepy hatch in the floor and an ant problem.
When I briefly looked at apartments on the Upper East Side in Manhattan during that time, I felt super lonely and annoyed just being there. Grocery stores were terribly far away, blocks were huge and hot and impersonal and relatively unshaded, every place I looked at felt like they were trying to scam me into accepting fewer amenities than advertised, and nothing felt human or alive. The nicest place I looked at there was all weird angles and had vertiginous outdoor stairs. It was so white. I hated all of it.
When I looked at apartments on the Lower East Side and East Village one day with a broker who basically tried to scare me and scam me, I saw places that were dirty bordering on disgusting (they deliberately started me there, I think, so the other dirty places they showed me would seem less bad). I saw places that were a little larger but with all weird angles and no view, and places that turned out to actually be a fifth-floor walk-up when I specifically requested no stairs that high. I essentially ran away and never looked back. I like visiting the part of the LES that has night life and bars, but I don't want to live there.
When I looked at apartments in Chinatown, I got shown a place that I literally couldn't wait near, it had such an awful garbage scent outside the restaurant on the first floor. Inside, the tiny, slippery open-window stairwell was encrusted with bird droppings; the apartment itself had the scent of fresh polyurethane. The broker basically ignored me. I'm not sure who the target renter for that apartment was, but it wasn't me.
I looked at one apartment in East Harlem where I went in the bathroom and saw baby roaches coming out of the sink. Bad news.
I looked at one apartment in the West Village where I loved the neighborhood, but it was a little far afield from where friends live or transit would normally take me. The broker initially stood me up, and it turned out that the only internet available was DSL. The building manager in that co-op was very kind while I waited that first time and told me about another listing nearby. But that other space, as well as the one space I actually liked on the Lower East Side, were both tiny for what I would've paid.
I found a beautiful basement apartment in West Harlem with a garden walk-out and lots of space. But it was only a 1-year deal (academics going on their sabbatical), plus a long walk from any amenities or transportation to get to where friends lived or places I might cowork. That's the other consideration, and that's what, along with my roommate at the time's willingness to look elsewhere, led me back to Astoria and Long Island City.
Along the way, I also looked at a place in Greenpoint (I have a few friends there) that was literally still being built when I toured it, with materials cheap and offgassing enough to trigger a bizarre migraine that unexpectedly put me in the hospital overnight. At the time, the future of the L was in question and transit options were scarce, which put me easily an hour from a lot of the people I wanted to see regularly or places I might cowork, so nothing about it was ideal. Basically everyone I know in Brooklyn for the most part only hangs out in Brooklyn, and it reminded me too much of South City in St. Louis in that regard.
So yeah, for all those reasons, I kept coming back to Astoria and Long Island City. I would've been happy here or in East Harlem again, I think, but this space in what is technically Dutch Kills turned out to be the best of all possible worlds for me. It's in a highly walkable, intensely diverse (among the most diverse in the world) neighborhood with lots of shops (grocery and otherwise) and restaurants and green space along the river and night life; it's right by the NW and not far from E, F, R, M, and 7 trains; and basically anywhere I need to get to regularly is accessible in 30 to 45 minutes via transit and a brief walk. I only looked seriously at places that had a balcony or yard access (or at very least a fire escape) and allowed pets, and I'm so thankful I made time to see this one last place. The last one turned out to be the best and only one for me, at least for now.
Long story short, the experience you might have here and the types of places you'll be able to afford and end up looking at will so highly vary, depending on your finances, your goals, and what you value. And you may (you almost certainly will) see a lot of places here that are highly unsuitable for you and your needs, if you do come here to scout it out. But I have no doubt there's somewhere in this city you might love and that would easily satisfy your criteria.
I'm not an evangelist of this city really—I'm a Midwesterner originally and I'm not really trying to be a New Yorker or claim some kind of identity, just to live here and enjoy it while I can. I'm fairly agnostic in that regard. But there is a lot about it that has grown on me, that I keep coming back to in a way that feels like home and that I miss when I'm not here. And there's really nothing like the queer, Latinx, and intersectional spaces here—I've been lucky enough to find living spaces that were all of the above. It's worth trying to see if you feel the same.
I don't know about Philly—I still haven't visited—but Boston definitely didn't feel as welcoming to me. It's fine to visit, but I can't see myself ever living there. Others have outlined some great reasons why.
posted by limeonaire at 1:25 PM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
New York is great. I lived in Carroll Gardens, and though I haven't been there since the pandemic and don't know which businesses might have closed, I was two blocks from a regular supermarket, a few blocks from an amazing Italian grocer that makes fresh mozzarella multiple times a day, a short distance from other grocery stores, and a longer walk or short bike ride from Trader Joe's and Whole Foods. For daily life (including my job) I could easily walk to everything. There was a tiny neighborhood park nearby, and wonderful Prospect Park was a little longer walk. My block wasn't loud. Highly recommend the neighborhood. Of course the city is expensive, but I found plenty of good low-cost entertainment.
posted by pinochiette at 1:27 PM on June 24, 2021
posted by pinochiette at 1:27 PM on June 24, 2021
You can check median rents for apartments of different sizes (by bedroom) on Streeteasy. That will help.
I moved back to NYC from Philadelphia. Rent is a lot more expensive here, but my salary is higher. A lot of things are more convenient in NYC, but that’s partly due to my neighborhood choice - a lot of things are very dense, and that means commercial zones are kind of everywhere - small bustling little downtowns for every neighborhood. I’ve got two grocery stores within a 5 minute walk, and a lot more within a 10 minute walk. Most of NYC (until you get into the tourist hellscapes of Manhattan, or the automotive ones of the outer outer boroughs) is very, very walkable within neighborhoods.
I will say that living where I do in Brooklyn, I have different grocery stores for different things. NYC doesn’t really have supermarkets the way other cities do - there are smaller markets. There are places I get veggies, places I get fresh stuff, and places I get dry goods.
Morningside Heights, Harlem, Spanish Harlem - all of those are really lovely areas. Brooklyn has a slightly different vibe but you can find similar neighborhoods - depending on what appeals to you about those neighborhoods. Maybe it's the built environment, maybe it's the street culture, maybe it's the people, the sounds and smells...
Me, I love it here. I also wish that it was possible for middle class people to buy property in neighborhoods I’d want to live in. I wish it were cleaner (this is a political issue - no mayor has been brave enough to remove parking spaces to accommodate better trash services), quieter (also a political issue - no mayor has been brave enough to remove enough personal-vehicle lanes to really improve transit), and more convenient to get around (transit vs cars again). But I love the NYCness of it.
posted by entropone at 2:22 PM on June 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
I moved back to NYC from Philadelphia. Rent is a lot more expensive here, but my salary is higher. A lot of things are more convenient in NYC, but that’s partly due to my neighborhood choice - a lot of things are very dense, and that means commercial zones are kind of everywhere - small bustling little downtowns for every neighborhood. I’ve got two grocery stores within a 5 minute walk, and a lot more within a 10 minute walk. Most of NYC (until you get into the tourist hellscapes of Manhattan, or the automotive ones of the outer outer boroughs) is very, very walkable within neighborhoods.
I will say that living where I do in Brooklyn, I have different grocery stores for different things. NYC doesn’t really have supermarkets the way other cities do - there are smaller markets. There are places I get veggies, places I get fresh stuff, and places I get dry goods.
Morningside Heights, Harlem, Spanish Harlem - all of those are really lovely areas. Brooklyn has a slightly different vibe but you can find similar neighborhoods - depending on what appeals to you about those neighborhoods. Maybe it's the built environment, maybe it's the street culture, maybe it's the people, the sounds and smells...
Me, I love it here. I also wish that it was possible for middle class people to buy property in neighborhoods I’d want to live in. I wish it were cleaner (this is a political issue - no mayor has been brave enough to remove parking spaces to accommodate better trash services), quieter (also a political issue - no mayor has been brave enough to remove enough personal-vehicle lanes to really improve transit), and more convenient to get around (transit vs cars again). But I love the NYCness of it.
posted by entropone at 2:22 PM on June 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think the difference between living in manhattan vs queens or brooklyn or the bronx is really significant. if you like a lot of trees and being able to entertain the idea of having a vehicle, figure out a way to explore/visit/try out staying in some neighborhoods in a borough before you make a decision (I think you’d be prematurely judging nyc as a whole if you made your decision based only on visits to manhattan!).
posted by elgee at 2:25 PM on June 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by elgee at 2:25 PM on June 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
Grocery delivery, along with delivery of every other thing under the sun, is a real established thing in NYC. So if your dream apartment is less than walkable to your favorite grocery store, that doesn’t have to be a dealbreaker.
I actually find eating well pretty cheap. You can get truly decent sushi, for example, crazy inexpensively here. Whereas in Boston I’d only get sushi at a good sit-down restaurant. Some entertainment is wildly overpriced but those would be the big famous things; you can apply the “off Broadway” concept to other forms of entertainment—sure there are big shows at MSG where you’ll pay $100+ for a shitty seat, but there’s also shows at clubs for $10.
NYC is incredibly convenient because transit connects everything and operates around the clock. I love Boston but it starts to feel REAL small, and the commuter outskirts kinda soulless lonely and cruddy. NYC really does have everything for everyone at every hour, and the outer boroughs have tons and tons of urban character so it’s not like Boston where the city part ends abruptly and the sprawl part begins.
posted by kapers at 7:06 PM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
I actually find eating well pretty cheap. You can get truly decent sushi, for example, crazy inexpensively here. Whereas in Boston I’d only get sushi at a good sit-down restaurant. Some entertainment is wildly overpriced but those would be the big famous things; you can apply the “off Broadway” concept to other forms of entertainment—sure there are big shows at MSG where you’ll pay $100+ for a shitty seat, but there’s also shows at clubs for $10.
NYC is incredibly convenient because transit connects everything and operates around the clock. I love Boston but it starts to feel REAL small, and the commuter outskirts kinda soulless lonely and cruddy. NYC really does have everything for everyone at every hour, and the outer boroughs have tons and tons of urban character so it’s not like Boston where the city part ends abruptly and the sprawl part begins.
posted by kapers at 7:06 PM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
One thing touched above but thing that I most dislike about the city:
Ambition. Many people you meet are focussed on their careers in a degree that I've never seen (even I lived in DC). Jobs exist here that don't exist anywhere else really (lots of media jobs, especially). And the cost of living means you meet alot of people who are high level at their companies. This has been difficult for someone who is pretty advanced in his career but thinks of it more as a job like myself.
posted by sandmanwv at 7:21 PM on June 24, 2021
Ambition. Many people you meet are focussed on their careers in a degree that I've never seen (even I lived in DC). Jobs exist here that don't exist anywhere else really (lots of media jobs, especially). And the cost of living means you meet alot of people who are high level at their companies. This has been difficult for someone who is pretty advanced in his career but thinks of it more as a job like myself.
posted by sandmanwv at 7:21 PM on June 24, 2021
Oh man, this is making me sad to leave New York!
In Brooklyn I have never lived even as far as five minutes from a grocery store—there's always been one down the block. They tend to be smaller and more erratically stocked than other cities—in DC my local Safeway was known as the "Soviet Safeway" because it was so spare, and the Soviet Safeway looks lush compared to my closest grocery store—but then there's usually another one a few blocks beyond that, or one on the way home from work, or whatever. In the areas you mention, one thing you might be missing is that there's a whole category of food store that exists between "bodega" and "supermarket." In Morningside Heights, for instance, I would go to Appletree. Further south I might go to Zingone's. If you're near a Westside Market you're golden. Some of these might not be pinging your grocery store radar because they don't look like much from outside but they're as good as a C-Town or better.
It's true that New York is very spread out—it's possible to travel well over an hour and still be in the city. But because public transit is so good, you get very skilled at triangulating the best meetup points that minimize everyone's travel time, so instead of one person being on the train for an hour you're all on the train for 30 minutes.
This is highly neighborhood-dependent, but I would say NYC is less green on an average block-to-block basis than DC was, smells worse, and has WAY more rats. On the flip side, DC had nothing even approaching Prospect Park or Central Park. What we lack in backyards we make up for in giant communal green spaces—and bar backyards, which aren't as much of a thing anywhere else I've been and which I'm going to miss. In fact, pre-pandemic I would have said a defining characteristic of New York was how much time we all spent outside our apartments. (This is coming back, especially in the parks, but there was a long stretch when everyone was going just an extra notch crazy because not only were we stuck indoors but we'd lost the largest room in our houses, which is to say, the part of the city outside our houses.) It's not that people never hang out at each other's homes, but it's rarer and more intimate than in other cities, because most of us simply do not have the space. (Though this, too, is neighborhood-dependent; you get more square footage for your money in some parts of town than others.)
The one thing that I can say is definitely true of New York across the board is that it's expensive. Some parts are cheaper than others but generally the cheaper parts are still more expensive than other cities' cheaper parts. I'm thinking of rent mainly, but really everything. Someone pointed out that people of all income levels live in NYC and that's true, but under our rent laws it can make a HUGE difference to have been here a long time; for anyone new, it's going to be expensive. It's so expensive! It's really expensive. I truly cannot overstate how expensive it is. And depending on your field, the salaries are not commensurately higher. That said, there are still places where you can eat really well for cheap, to offset what you're paying in rent. (And as many people have pointed out, you can in general eat and drink VERY well here.)
Anyway, it sounds like we're trading cities so do feel free to MeMail! My parents have lived in Morningside Heights for the last 20 years so I may be able to be helpful about the UWS as well as BK.
posted by babelfish at 11:27 PM on June 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
In Brooklyn I have never lived even as far as five minutes from a grocery store—there's always been one down the block. They tend to be smaller and more erratically stocked than other cities—in DC my local Safeway was known as the "Soviet Safeway" because it was so spare, and the Soviet Safeway looks lush compared to my closest grocery store—but then there's usually another one a few blocks beyond that, or one on the way home from work, or whatever. In the areas you mention, one thing you might be missing is that there's a whole category of food store that exists between "bodega" and "supermarket." In Morningside Heights, for instance, I would go to Appletree. Further south I might go to Zingone's. If you're near a Westside Market you're golden. Some of these might not be pinging your grocery store radar because they don't look like much from outside but they're as good as a C-Town or better.
It's true that New York is very spread out—it's possible to travel well over an hour and still be in the city. But because public transit is so good, you get very skilled at triangulating the best meetup points that minimize everyone's travel time, so instead of one person being on the train for an hour you're all on the train for 30 minutes.
This is highly neighborhood-dependent, but I would say NYC is less green on an average block-to-block basis than DC was, smells worse, and has WAY more rats. On the flip side, DC had nothing even approaching Prospect Park or Central Park. What we lack in backyards we make up for in giant communal green spaces—and bar backyards, which aren't as much of a thing anywhere else I've been and which I'm going to miss. In fact, pre-pandemic I would have said a defining characteristic of New York was how much time we all spent outside our apartments. (This is coming back, especially in the parks, but there was a long stretch when everyone was going just an extra notch crazy because not only were we stuck indoors but we'd lost the largest room in our houses, which is to say, the part of the city outside our houses.) It's not that people never hang out at each other's homes, but it's rarer and more intimate than in other cities, because most of us simply do not have the space. (Though this, too, is neighborhood-dependent; you get more square footage for your money in some parts of town than others.)
The one thing that I can say is definitely true of New York across the board is that it's expensive. Some parts are cheaper than others but generally the cheaper parts are still more expensive than other cities' cheaper parts. I'm thinking of rent mainly, but really everything. Someone pointed out that people of all income levels live in NYC and that's true, but under our rent laws it can make a HUGE difference to have been here a long time; for anyone new, it's going to be expensive. It's so expensive! It's really expensive. I truly cannot overstate how expensive it is. And depending on your field, the salaries are not commensurately higher. That said, there are still places where you can eat really well for cheap, to offset what you're paying in rent. (And as many people have pointed out, you can in general eat and drink VERY well here.)
Anyway, it sounds like we're trading cities so do feel free to MeMail! My parents have lived in Morningside Heights for the last 20 years so I may be able to be helpful about the UWS as well as BK.
posted by babelfish at 11:27 PM on June 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've lived in New York City (Washington Heights) and Philadelphia (Fairmount).
I despised NYC. Washington Heights, when I lived there, was in the midst of massive gentrification, and so there was a lot of very appropriate, very palpable resentment of long-term residents toward newcomers like myself. It did not help that I was attending Columbia's medical school, which at the time (perhaps still today) was also actively hostile toward the Dominican population it supposedly served.
My memories of NYC are that daily living just took a lot more work. There was one grocery store in my neighborhood (Gristedes) which was not particularly clean, so I often took the subway to the Upper West Side or went to a bodega. The public library was small and had limited hours, so I had to take the subway to the larger libraries elsewhere in the city. There was next to no greenspace, aside from Ft Tryon Park which was wonderful and probably is the only reason I managed to remain sane in the city. Central Park isn't that far, either, but it's not really walkable (it is subwayable).
Yes, you can get anything in NYC, food-wise, but the city is so segregated into little neighborhoods that you need both time and money to enjoy the city in its entirety, and when I was living there, I had neither.
I also frequently felt unsafe in NYC, particularly on the subway in the early morning or late at night. This was pre-Uber, and you couldn't get a cab. The med school used to have police escort walk people to/from the subway station and the hospital. (This was probably overkill, but did actually contribute to the "this neighborhood is unsafe" feeling.)
After my experience in NYC I was very nervous about living in Philly, but my experience was just the opposite. Fairmount is a much more walkable neighborhood than Washington Heights. I was two or three blocks from the Parkway Central Library, and less than a mile from the Art Museum itself. My apartment complex had a shuttle-bus to Center City and one to West Philly. Philly's transit is less robust than NYC's, because it's bus-centric and therefore prone to traffic snarls, but the trolley system was surprising good -- when I did take the trolley instead of the apartment shuttle, it was about 2-3 minutes between trolleys. Even on weekends, I don't think I waited on the platform more than 10 minutes. Loved the food scene in Philly, and because I actually had a job and was free on weekends, had the wherewithal to enjoy it.
posted by basalganglia at 2:40 AM on June 25, 2021
I despised NYC. Washington Heights, when I lived there, was in the midst of massive gentrification, and so there was a lot of very appropriate, very palpable resentment of long-term residents toward newcomers like myself. It did not help that I was attending Columbia's medical school, which at the time (perhaps still today) was also actively hostile toward the Dominican population it supposedly served.
My memories of NYC are that daily living just took a lot more work. There was one grocery store in my neighborhood (Gristedes) which was not particularly clean, so I often took the subway to the Upper West Side or went to a bodega. The public library was small and had limited hours, so I had to take the subway to the larger libraries elsewhere in the city. There was next to no greenspace, aside from Ft Tryon Park which was wonderful and probably is the only reason I managed to remain sane in the city. Central Park isn't that far, either, but it's not really walkable (it is subwayable).
Yes, you can get anything in NYC, food-wise, but the city is so segregated into little neighborhoods that you need both time and money to enjoy the city in its entirety, and when I was living there, I had neither.
I also frequently felt unsafe in NYC, particularly on the subway in the early morning or late at night. This was pre-Uber, and you couldn't get a cab. The med school used to have police escort walk people to/from the subway station and the hospital. (This was probably overkill, but did actually contribute to the "this neighborhood is unsafe" feeling.)
After my experience in NYC I was very nervous about living in Philly, but my experience was just the opposite. Fairmount is a much more walkable neighborhood than Washington Heights. I was two or three blocks from the Parkway Central Library, and less than a mile from the Art Museum itself. My apartment complex had a shuttle-bus to Center City and one to West Philly. Philly's transit is less robust than NYC's, because it's bus-centric and therefore prone to traffic snarls, but the trolley system was surprising good -- when I did take the trolley instead of the apartment shuttle, it was about 2-3 minutes between trolleys. Even on weekends, I don't think I waited on the platform more than 10 minutes. Loved the food scene in Philly, and because I actually had a job and was free on weekends, had the wherewithal to enjoy it.
posted by basalganglia at 2:40 AM on June 25, 2021
Basalganglia's comment above also suggests that sometimes the time at which you are living in a given neighborhood can also affect your impression of that neighborhood. Morningside Heights in the "pre-Uber" days of the early aughts would probably be a different place from the Morningside Heights today. I've been in Clinton Hill for 15 years, and that neighborhood has also changed a good deal; another Brooklyn neighborhood I've visited a lot in the past several years, Red Hook, has also changed greatly.
The city is constantly evolving, and sometimes the city will extend a subway line or build a ferry stop in the ass-of-nowhere neighborhood that's been overlooked for years, and suddenly people looking for cheap rent now see it as a viable option because the commute's easier, and they flock in and start demanding better supermarkets and banks and such. Or a once-hot neighborhood sees a lot of old mom-and-pop establishments close because the rent has just got too high and things sit empty and people start moving away, and the neighborhood starts to get a bit shabby. Or the city opens up a tech/manufacturing business hub in some out-of-the-way spot and suddenly people start needing restaurants to go on their lunch break and those start opening up. This all can dramatically change the character of a given neighborhood.
Which is yet another reason why "what is living in New York City like" is such a complicated question - it depends on what neighborhood you're talking about, what kinds of things you're looking for, and when in time you are asking.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:44 AM on June 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
The city is constantly evolving, and sometimes the city will extend a subway line or build a ferry stop in the ass-of-nowhere neighborhood that's been overlooked for years, and suddenly people looking for cheap rent now see it as a viable option because the commute's easier, and they flock in and start demanding better supermarkets and banks and such. Or a once-hot neighborhood sees a lot of old mom-and-pop establishments close because the rent has just got too high and things sit empty and people start moving away, and the neighborhood starts to get a bit shabby. Or the city opens up a tech/manufacturing business hub in some out-of-the-way spot and suddenly people start needing restaurants to go on their lunch break and those start opening up. This all can dramatically change the character of a given neighborhood.
Which is yet another reason why "what is living in New York City like" is such a complicated question - it depends on what neighborhood you're talking about, what kinds of things you're looking for, and when in time you are asking.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:44 AM on June 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
I lived in Chicago and Boston each for several years, DC for a summer, and New York for five now, so at the very least I've got some opinions! To put all my cards upfront, I live in Park Slope, in Brooklyn.
Pros
- I also think it's interesting what you say about walkability, because within a 5-minute walk of my apartment -- and I do mean a 5-minute walk, not a realtor's "5 minute walk" at Olympic-athlete speeds -- I have:
2 grocery stores, a specialty fish store, a wine store, a pizza place, a bagel shop, multiple coffee places, a branch of the public library, a really good bakery, a bike store, a Thai place that I like, a laundromat, 2 drugstores, 2 gyms, multiple ATMs (including my bank's), multiple bodegas, 2 Citibike bikeshare stations, and a taco truck. The subway is just outside 5 minutes' walk, a major city park is 15 minutes by foot, and I can be at Ikea in an hour on foot (or 30 minutes by bus).
- The transit is unparalleled by American standards. Yes, the subway stations are dirty and insanely hot in summer and the weekend service changes are straight-up byzantine. But this city relies on rail like nowhere else in the United States -- pre-COVID, the NYC Subway had 7 times as many riders on weekdays as the next-busiest rail system in the US (the DC Metro). It's just a different scope and scale.
- As someone who loves to cook, I want to say both that (1) I've yet to find an ingredient I just can't find and (2) I can always get to it by transit. I have favorite Chinese, Thai, Indian and Japanese markets scattered around the city. Of course, I realize that other cities have these markets too! But where I think it's different is that in NYC it is easy (and in some cases mainstream) to get to them all by transit. This has not really been the case anywhere else I've lived.
- I am not one much for the arts or for the culture, but if there's a movie playing in 2 places in America, it's almost certainly playing here. If there is some exhibit or talk, I can almost always find it here as well. There's just a large enough population to support a large variety of cultural events.
- If you have the finances, NYC can become an incredibly convenient place especially with delivery.
Cons
- $$$$ and I'm not kidding. I am thinking very seriously about leaving and this is the primary reason. I love my neighborhood, but I am getting priced out, though it should be said, partially by my own choice -- as someone in his 30s, I just don't want to have a roommate anymore, and I absolutely can't afford to stay in this neighborhood by myself.
Basically, for me, I am thinking a lot about the tradeoff of living pretty far out in the outer boroughs (which would be affordable for me) in a big city, versus living in a more close-in, and affordable, neighborhood in a smaller city.
- If you are a homebody (that is not a slight, I am absolutely one!) and someone for whom "apartment quality" is important, I would think really, really hard about whether this place makes sense, unless you have a very large budget. If I'm being honest, I'm reaching an age and a place in my life where I would like to not have to use a laundromat any more, be able to have lots of people over for dinner in my apartment, have central AC, maybe even have a guest room, use a dishwasher, have some outdoor space, and have this be in my own apartment (without roommates).
To be clear, I'm not saying that you can't get that in NYC -- if you have enough money, you can absolutely buy that. But it's not in my budget here, but could be in, say, Philadelphia or Chicago.
I think fundamentally a big part of the "NYC bargain" is that maybe your apartment is smaller than you like, your kitchen isn't as spacious, and you have to haul your clothes to a laundromat, but there's a world and a wealth of cultural amenities to make up for it. Only you know whether that bargain is worth it for you and if you have the $ to make it all work.
posted by andrewesque at 11:10 AM on June 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Pros
- I also think it's interesting what you say about walkability, because within a 5-minute walk of my apartment -- and I do mean a 5-minute walk, not a realtor's "5 minute walk" at Olympic-athlete speeds -- I have:
2 grocery stores, a specialty fish store, a wine store, a pizza place, a bagel shop, multiple coffee places, a branch of the public library, a really good bakery, a bike store, a Thai place that I like, a laundromat, 2 drugstores, 2 gyms, multiple ATMs (including my bank's), multiple bodegas, 2 Citibike bikeshare stations, and a taco truck. The subway is just outside 5 minutes' walk, a major city park is 15 minutes by foot, and I can be at Ikea in an hour on foot (or 30 minutes by bus).
- The transit is unparalleled by American standards. Yes, the subway stations are dirty and insanely hot in summer and the weekend service changes are straight-up byzantine. But this city relies on rail like nowhere else in the United States -- pre-COVID, the NYC Subway had 7 times as many riders on weekdays as the next-busiest rail system in the US (the DC Metro). It's just a different scope and scale.
- As someone who loves to cook, I want to say both that (1) I've yet to find an ingredient I just can't find and (2) I can always get to it by transit. I have favorite Chinese, Thai, Indian and Japanese markets scattered around the city. Of course, I realize that other cities have these markets too! But where I think it's different is that in NYC it is easy (and in some cases mainstream) to get to them all by transit. This has not really been the case anywhere else I've lived.
- I am not one much for the arts or for the culture, but if there's a movie playing in 2 places in America, it's almost certainly playing here. If there is some exhibit or talk, I can almost always find it here as well. There's just a large enough population to support a large variety of cultural events.
- If you have the finances, NYC can become an incredibly convenient place especially with delivery.
Cons
- $$$$ and I'm not kidding. I am thinking very seriously about leaving and this is the primary reason. I love my neighborhood, but I am getting priced out, though it should be said, partially by my own choice -- as someone in his 30s, I just don't want to have a roommate anymore, and I absolutely can't afford to stay in this neighborhood by myself.
Basically, for me, I am thinking a lot about the tradeoff of living pretty far out in the outer boroughs (which would be affordable for me) in a big city, versus living in a more close-in, and affordable, neighborhood in a smaller city.
- If you are a homebody (that is not a slight, I am absolutely one!) and someone for whom "apartment quality" is important, I would think really, really hard about whether this place makes sense, unless you have a very large budget. If I'm being honest, I'm reaching an age and a place in my life where I would like to not have to use a laundromat any more, be able to have lots of people over for dinner in my apartment, have central AC, maybe even have a guest room, use a dishwasher, have some outdoor space, and have this be in my own apartment (without roommates).
To be clear, I'm not saying that you can't get that in NYC -- if you have enough money, you can absolutely buy that. But it's not in my budget here, but could be in, say, Philadelphia or Chicago.
I think fundamentally a big part of the "NYC bargain" is that maybe your apartment is smaller than you like, your kitchen isn't as spacious, and you have to haul your clothes to a laundromat, but there's a world and a wealth of cultural amenities to make up for it. Only you know whether that bargain is worth it for you and if you have the $ to make it all work.
posted by andrewesque at 11:10 AM on June 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Having lived in Boston and now in NYC for 20+ years, another thing to mention: Boston is COOOOLD. In winter, it's insane how much colder and miserable and dark it is compared to NYC. NYC is not warm, but wow Boston is a lot darker and colder in the winter.
Everyone already said all the other stuff. NYC is better, sorry Boston. Boston is provincial and small-potatoes. NYC is ambitious and freeing and energetic. Sometimes that makes it hard to deal with. You have to re-up in NYC every once in a while and decide what the heck makes it worth your while. Like, start biking. Or take a new class. Or quit your job. You have to re-assess. I feel like Boston is busy talking about the Beanpot forever and there's just too much dumb nostalgia for boring things.
That said, as I get older I can see the benefit of slowing down and not always racing about.
posted by moedym at 2:26 PM on June 25, 2021
Everyone already said all the other stuff. NYC is better, sorry Boston. Boston is provincial and small-potatoes. NYC is ambitious and freeing and energetic. Sometimes that makes it hard to deal with. You have to re-up in NYC every once in a while and decide what the heck makes it worth your while. Like, start biking. Or take a new class. Or quit your job. You have to re-assess. I feel like Boston is busy talking about the Beanpot forever and there's just too much dumb nostalgia for boring things.
That said, as I get older I can see the benefit of slowing down and not always racing about.
posted by moedym at 2:26 PM on June 25, 2021
Counterpoint to moedym's comment - NYC is actually big enough that you can "slow down" as you get older, but still stay in the city.
In my 20s and 30s I was in Manhattan, flitting to museums and movies and doing theater and going to plays (when I could). I moved to Brooklyn at the invite of a friend who needed a roommate, and still made the trips into Manhattan to all the museums and such (and I still had to commute there for work for a good while), but....as I got older I found myself less and less interested in going to Manhattan for things, and now that I am working in the same neighborhood I live in, I also find myself less and less interested in leaving the neighborhood unless it is for some kind of special outing (a hike, a special "oh, it's been a while since I've been to the Met" trip....).
New York is big enough that you can have both the big urban experience, and the smaller slower "I'm getting middle aged and comfortable" experience.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:07 AM on June 26, 2021
In my 20s and 30s I was in Manhattan, flitting to museums and movies and doing theater and going to plays (when I could). I moved to Brooklyn at the invite of a friend who needed a roommate, and still made the trips into Manhattan to all the museums and such (and I still had to commute there for work for a good while), but....as I got older I found myself less and less interested in going to Manhattan for things, and now that I am working in the same neighborhood I live in, I also find myself less and less interested in leaving the neighborhood unless it is for some kind of special outing (a hike, a special "oh, it's been a while since I've been to the Met" trip....).
New York is big enough that you can have both the big urban experience, and the smaller slower "I'm getting middle aged and comfortable" experience.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:07 AM on June 26, 2021
Honestly I don’t know why you would even consider one of the other east coast cities unless your job/industry is headquartered there. If you enjoy cities and you enjoy city things, NYC is always gonna win, hands down. Yeah it’s more expensive, but you get what you pay for. Also you’ll probably make more money here.
I’m more used to applying this sort of calculus to cities with vastly different climates, like SF or LA or Miami. Those are still lesser cities, but they have better weather, which could be meaningful depending on your priorities. But the other east coast cities have the same crappy weather we have, so why even bother? Might as well live in the better city.
posted by panama joe at 6:12 AM on June 27, 2021
I’m more used to applying this sort of calculus to cities with vastly different climates, like SF or LA or Miami. Those are still lesser cities, but they have better weather, which could be meaningful depending on your priorities. But the other east coast cities have the same crappy weather we have, so why even bother? Might as well live in the better city.
posted by panama joe at 6:12 AM on June 27, 2021
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Going for walks is so fun - there are a million new things to see every day. World class art museums and also smaller studios, ballets and operas and street performers, amazing food, architecture, history, etc etc. I don’t even notice the pests or the garbage. The city is basically a playground and it’s all yours. No other US city compares.
It is more expensive than most areas, but my day to day expenses aren’t much more than when I lived in Denver, though I live fairly frugally. The main difference is the rent - so if you look at comparable apartments to what you have now, it can give you a rough idea of how much more money you’ll need.
Visiting is so different from living there. I think if it’s something you’ve always wanted to do, you should really consider it.
posted by umwhat at 11:08 AM on June 24, 2021 [14 favorites]