Neighborly relations 101?
June 5, 2021 10:23 AM Subscribe
Our new home is currently under construction, and one of the next door neighbors has already proven to be prickly. What should we do to keep everyone happy?
Warning, possible beanplating ahead.
We bought a half-duplex that is not yet completed. We had no involvement in the original building plans, we simply bought early in the building process. The neighbor has made it very clear that she hates the house and has been berating the builders nonstop for "ruining the neighborhood and her enjoyment of her house." For example, she harangued the builder until they agreed to remove an entire window from the plans. She was incensed that our window had a line of sight to her back deck.
My partner and I like to have windows... natural light is nice. So my partner went over to introduce himself and try to have a chat with her about it. He wanted to reassure her that we plan to hang blinds, and the window itself is on the side of the dining room and not oriented in such a way that anyone would be seated directly facing her deck. She wasn't receptive, and went on about how the house was a "monstrosity" and that it was "blocking her sunlight." She also told him that she had lived there for many, many years, and was "the leader of the block." My partner let her know that we also plan to enjoy our back deck, and our backyard, which also has a view of her deck. The yard is fenced, but the decks are at such a height that they can be clearly seen over the fence and there's no helping that as the city won't permit higher fences.
I guess I should be clear that the house is no McMansion or anything of the sort, but being that it is a duplex, it has a bigger footprint than the original house on the property. The properties in this neighborhood are not huge, the houses are fairly close together and that's not new. My best friend has also lived in the neighborhood for many years (though on a different block) and her and her neighbor's back decks are even higher and closer together than ours.
We recently went to see how the house was coming along and while standing in the backyard, got a weird feeling that we were being watched. We glanced over and saw the neighbor glaring at us from inside her house. It was not a friendly vibe. This makes me sad, as I grew up in a neighborhood where all the households knew each other. All the kids played together, we had annual block parties, and years later, though most of the families have since moved away, many keep in touch. We're hoping to have allies in the family who will be living in the front half of the duplex. But I fear that our relationship with the next-door neighbor has been soured from the start due to her hatred of the house.
What can we do to smooth things over? We don't want to get off on the wrong foot. Especially since she holds herself out as an authority figure in the neighborhood and may have sway over the opinions of other neighbors. But we also don't want to just roll over, and she seems to be used to getting her way. Help?
Warning, possible beanplating ahead.
We bought a half-duplex that is not yet completed. We had no involvement in the original building plans, we simply bought early in the building process. The neighbor has made it very clear that she hates the house and has been berating the builders nonstop for "ruining the neighborhood and her enjoyment of her house." For example, she harangued the builder until they agreed to remove an entire window from the plans. She was incensed that our window had a line of sight to her back deck.
My partner and I like to have windows... natural light is nice. So my partner went over to introduce himself and try to have a chat with her about it. He wanted to reassure her that we plan to hang blinds, and the window itself is on the side of the dining room and not oriented in such a way that anyone would be seated directly facing her deck. She wasn't receptive, and went on about how the house was a "monstrosity" and that it was "blocking her sunlight." She also told him that she had lived there for many, many years, and was "the leader of the block." My partner let her know that we also plan to enjoy our back deck, and our backyard, which also has a view of her deck. The yard is fenced, but the decks are at such a height that they can be clearly seen over the fence and there's no helping that as the city won't permit higher fences.
I guess I should be clear that the house is no McMansion or anything of the sort, but being that it is a duplex, it has a bigger footprint than the original house on the property. The properties in this neighborhood are not huge, the houses are fairly close together and that's not new. My best friend has also lived in the neighborhood for many years (though on a different block) and her and her neighbor's back decks are even higher and closer together than ours.
We recently went to see how the house was coming along and while standing in the backyard, got a weird feeling that we were being watched. We glanced over and saw the neighbor glaring at us from inside her house. It was not a friendly vibe. This makes me sad, as I grew up in a neighborhood where all the households knew each other. All the kids played together, we had annual block parties, and years later, though most of the families have since moved away, many keep in touch. We're hoping to have allies in the family who will be living in the front half of the duplex. But I fear that our relationship with the next-door neighbor has been soured from the start due to her hatred of the house.
What can we do to smooth things over? We don't want to get off on the wrong foot. Especially since she holds herself out as an authority figure in the neighborhood and may have sway over the opinions of other neighbors. But we also don't want to just roll over, and she seems to be used to getting her way. Help?
Unfortunately this person sounds like a classic nimby asshole and I doubt you're going to win her over. I'd be willing to bet she thinks that's she far more of "neighborhood leader" than she actually is.
I'd suggest neutral deescalation in response to any interactions with her. Don't argue or fight or attempt to placate. Just get out of the conversation without giving her anything to bounce back at you. It's your house and your deserve to have it set up the way you like.
posted by Ferreous at 10:30 AM on June 5, 2021 [48 favorites]
I'd suggest neutral deescalation in response to any interactions with her. Don't argue or fight or attempt to placate. Just get out of the conversation without giving her anything to bounce back at you. It's your house and your deserve to have it set up the way you like.
posted by Ferreous at 10:30 AM on June 5, 2021 [48 favorites]
Also unless it's something you intended to do anyways don't do anything architecturally to accommodate her complaints. It won't make her a good neighbor and will only give her the idea that harassing you will get her what she wants and set you up for years of demands.
posted by Ferreous at 10:33 AM on June 5, 2021 [71 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 10:33 AM on June 5, 2021 [71 favorites]
yeah, this is not going to get better by appeasement. Interact as little as possible. Do not change your plans to accommodate her. Do try to get to know other neighbors.
and giant WTF to the builder. Absolutely no more changes that don't come directly from you with a signed change order! I've never heard of such a thing.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:34 AM on June 5, 2021 [43 favorites]
and giant WTF to the builder. Absolutely no more changes that don't come directly from you with a signed change order! I've never heard of such a thing.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:34 AM on June 5, 2021 [43 favorites]
I've lived in my house 25+ years, and it's in a neighborhood where, when houses sell nowadays, they're torn down and turned into multiunit dwellings. It's annoying as hell! Things changing! More people, more cars, etc. People's homes overlooking my backyard! And still, she's totally wrong. Be nice to her face if you like, but be firm in your right to have your window and everything else that's been permitted.
Also, I'd join Nextdoor if your neighborhood has it, and introduce yourself and participate (if there are sane topics to participate in). This may help you ingratiate yourself to the real neighborhood leaders.
posted by BlahLaLa at 10:35 AM on June 5, 2021 [11 favorites]
Also, I'd join Nextdoor if your neighborhood has it, and introduce yourself and participate (if there are sane topics to participate in). This may help you ingratiate yourself to the real neighborhood leaders.
posted by BlahLaLa at 10:35 AM on June 5, 2021 [11 favorites]
Placating bullies allows them to think it's okay. If she harasses workers, go over and politely but firmly tell her that the workers deserve to be left alone. You have a deck, you can see her. So what. I used to watch my neighbor's driveway from the kitchen window as I washed dishes and prepared meals, or view the shenanigans across the street from my desk at the window. My next door neighbor just raised the roof and has a sightline into my bedroom. I will no longer see the setting moon from bed and have to use blinds. Housing density means people have to live in harmony, so be extremely civil, but don't tolerate her bullying.
Tell the builder to tell her they are not allowed to discuss building plans with her if she approaches them. Put in any windows you like, and otherwise build a good house you will love. Do make nice plantings, take over baked goods occasionally, and set an example of how to be a nice neighbor.
posted by theora55 at 10:35 AM on June 5, 2021 [10 favorites]
Tell the builder to tell her they are not allowed to discuss building plans with her if she approaches them. Put in any windows you like, and otherwise build a good house you will love. Do make nice plantings, take over baked goods occasionally, and set an example of how to be a nice neighbor.
posted by theora55 at 10:35 AM on June 5, 2021 [10 favorites]
It’s great that you are sympathetic and trying to do right, but it is her responsibility to meet you half way. As others have said, don’t let her dictate your house to you or give up your rights to enjoy your property the way you want to. A lot of people like to think that tenure in a location gives them additional authority in how things get done. It simply doesn’t work that way.
If she’s going to be a Scrooge, the best you can do is be Scrooge’s nephew and hope she eventually comes around.
posted by meinvt at 10:45 AM on June 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
If she’s going to be a Scrooge, the best you can do is be Scrooge’s nephew and hope she eventually comes around.
posted by meinvt at 10:45 AM on June 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
I wouldn’t worry too much about her opinions affecting the other neighbors. No doubt they know what she’s like. Make friendly overtures to them in whatever way seems best.
I once built a house on a previously empty lot, and one neighbor let me know how much she didn’t want it there. But over time, she got over it or at least quit complaining. She was still a prickly person, but it was not a real problem.
And agree that she doesn’t get to change your building plans. WTF builder indeed.
posted by FencingGal at 11:03 AM on June 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
I once built a house on a previously empty lot, and one neighbor let me know how much she didn’t want it there. But over time, she got over it or at least quit complaining. She was still a prickly person, but it was not a real problem.
And agree that she doesn’t get to change your building plans. WTF builder indeed.
posted by FencingGal at 11:03 AM on June 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
>For example, she harangued the builder until they agreed to remove an entire window from the plans.
This is likely untrue, perhaps posturing to make her seem more powerful than she is, or an intrusion of wishful thinking into reality. Ask the builder.
If it is true, get it put back, especially if you had approved the plans or taken ownership before your builder performed this unauthorized change.
I had a neighbor that insisted that I was stealing her property with the existing fence line that separated our properties. I got tired of hearing it, and got a survey. The opposite was true.
I don't think you are going to win her over. Document her behaviors, try to show her the consideration you would show any other neighbor, and don't let her bait you into interactions where you have to suffer her aggression and accusation.
posted by the Real Dan at 11:09 AM on June 5, 2021 [13 favorites]
This is likely untrue, perhaps posturing to make her seem more powerful than she is, or an intrusion of wishful thinking into reality. Ask the builder.
If it is true, get it put back, especially if you had approved the plans or taken ownership before your builder performed this unauthorized change.
I had a neighbor that insisted that I was stealing her property with the existing fence line that separated our properties. I got tired of hearing it, and got a survey. The opposite was true.
I don't think you are going to win her over. Document her behaviors, try to show her the consideration you would show any other neighbor, and don't let her bait you into interactions where you have to suffer her aggression and accusation.
posted by the Real Dan at 11:09 AM on June 5, 2021 [13 favorites]
Agree with everyone urging you to keep the window and do whatever else you want with your house. I'm also shocked a builder would let themselves be bullied by anyone but the person paying! I wouldn't argue with the neighbor on this - you don't need her permission, it's your house.
As for eventually getting along with the neighbor...I wouldn't bend to her, but I wouldn't give up either. You and the new duplex represent change, clearly unwanted to her and perhaps unwanted among other neighbors. Play the long game - go around with baked goods to introduce yourself to the neighbors once you move in, invite the neighborhood to your eventual housewarming party, go on regular walks in which you stop and chat with people, plant a nice garden in the front yard, etc. With time, you're likely to win over most of the neighborhood (most people just want neighbors that are nice and maintain their property), which means she'll have less of a basis to dislike you.
posted by coffeecat at 11:10 AM on June 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
As for eventually getting along with the neighbor...I wouldn't bend to her, but I wouldn't give up either. You and the new duplex represent change, clearly unwanted to her and perhaps unwanted among other neighbors. Play the long game - go around with baked goods to introduce yourself to the neighbors once you move in, invite the neighborhood to your eventual housewarming party, go on regular walks in which you stop and chat with people, plant a nice garden in the front yard, etc. With time, you're likely to win over most of the neighborhood (most people just want neighbors that are nice and maintain their property), which means she'll have less of a basis to dislike you.
posted by coffeecat at 11:10 AM on June 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
1: Understand her. On a deep level. If you really want to try to make this work, you'll have to slowly gain her trust and figure out what really drives this person. Not saying you have to do this -- it would take time -- but it's really the only way, other than saving her dog or something, to have a real relationship with her.
2: Our deck itself has a wall around the sides. Is that a possibility for you?
3: Realize that she's right. The builder putting a duplex into her nice small-house-with-yards-and-people-who-appreciate-that does kind of ruin it. It's turned it into something else, and at her age she shouldn't have to deal with that. If you can somehow demonstrate that the new thing that her neighborhood is, has advantages for her, that would be nice.
posted by amtho at 11:20 AM on June 5, 2021 [9 favorites]
2: Our deck itself has a wall around the sides. Is that a possibility for you?
3: Realize that she's right. The builder putting a duplex into her nice small-house-with-yards-and-people-who-appreciate-that does kind of ruin it. It's turned it into something else, and at her age she shouldn't have to deal with that. If you can somehow demonstrate that the new thing that her neighborhood is, has advantages for her, that would be nice.
posted by amtho at 11:20 AM on June 5, 2021 [9 favorites]
Keep your distance and be civil but businesslike in your dealings with her. Also, stop assuming she can be reasonable. Getting your builder to change plans is a ridiculous overreach and says a lot about her level of entitlement. You’re assuming she’s developed this harassing and intrusive behavior due to the duplex being built, but it’s also very likely that she’s always been very unpleasant and has never lacked for things to be angry about. Put in all the windows you want and look into window films that will prevent her from looking into your home.
posted by quince at 11:22 AM on June 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by quince at 11:22 AM on June 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
Here are a couple of possible solutions for two of the problems (although they only go far enough to put out a couple of fires):
1) Maybe you could keep the bedroom window but install opaque glass; that will maintain privacy but still allow light in.
2) I have a patio to which my neighbor has 100% view from their living room window, so I designed and had a friend make what are essentially portable room dividers, but for outdoors - I love them and they work great.
Also, I wouldn't even try to make friends with your neighbor - it would be a lost cause because she is unreasonable - put her on ignore.
posted by SageTrail at 11:24 AM on June 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
1) Maybe you could keep the bedroom window but install opaque glass; that will maintain privacy but still allow light in.
2) I have a patio to which my neighbor has 100% view from their living room window, so I designed and had a friend make what are essentially portable room dividers, but for outdoors - I love them and they work great.
Also, I wouldn't even try to make friends with your neighbor - it would be a lost cause because she is unreasonable - put her on ignore.
posted by SageTrail at 11:24 AM on June 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
3: Realize that she's right. The builder putting a duplex into her nice small-house-with-yards-and-people-who-appreciate-that does kind of ruin it. It's turned it into something else, and at her age she shouldn't have to deal with that.
I'm going to strongly disagree with this. This isn't a rendering plant or something like that, it's a slightly larger house. They're not ruining the neighborhood by any means and age has no bearing on what gets built near you. It's a flawed assumption and operating from it favors entrenched interests over people who need a place to live. The OP has done nothing wrong and has nothing to apologize for.
posted by Ferreous at 11:26 AM on June 5, 2021 [118 favorites]
If your neighbor wanted a place that would maintain the same “neighborhood character,” she should have bought somewhere with an HOA and been involved with the board, or just bought a larger property. Be very polite and don’t give into her.
posted by momus_window at 11:43 AM on June 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by momus_window at 11:43 AM on June 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
Ask your landscaper to plant the fastest growing trees they have, to make a leafy screen between you and the neighbor.
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:52 AM on June 5, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:52 AM on June 5, 2021 [13 favorites]
I'm going to strongly disagree with this.
You put this much more diplomatically than I had planned to.
posted by hwyengr at 11:57 AM on June 5, 2021 [30 favorites]
You put this much more diplomatically than I had planned to.
posted by hwyengr at 11:57 AM on June 5, 2021 [30 favorites]
She also told him that she ... was "the leader of the block."
Somebody who is "the leader of the block" would never have to declare that she's "the leader of the block."
For example: "Kitty," a local resident with whom I've had professional dealings, has been referred to as "the doyenne" of her neighborhood, where she has lived for a long time. My extensive conversations with Kitty have focused on neighborhood issues, but Kitty has never referred to herself as a neighborhood leader, or said or implied that other neighborhood residents defer to her. Even though, in Kitty's case, it's true.
3. Realize that she's right. The builder putting a duplex into her nice small-house-with-yards-and-people-who-appreciate-that does kind of ruin it. It's turned it into something else, and at her age she shouldn't have to deal with that.
Nthing the disagreement with the premise of this statement, and I don't have anything to add to Ferreous' comment, except that I somehow doubt that this is the first time this neighbor has experienced agita over a nearby building project.
Per the OP, the neighbor has resided in the same place "for many, many years." If she hasn't seen displeasing home construction in her neighborhood during this period, then she is breathing rarefied air. (Source: Parents who have lived in the same house in the same small town since 1969.)
If you can somehow demonstrate that the new thing that her neighborhood is, has advantages for her, that would be nice.
This is a more viable framing of the issue, but it's going to take some time, and the word "somehow" demonstrates the challenge.
posted by virago at 12:12 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
Somebody who is "the leader of the block" would never have to declare that she's "the leader of the block."
For example: "Kitty," a local resident with whom I've had professional dealings, has been referred to as "the doyenne" of her neighborhood, where she has lived for a long time. My extensive conversations with Kitty have focused on neighborhood issues, but Kitty has never referred to herself as a neighborhood leader, or said or implied that other neighborhood residents defer to her. Even though, in Kitty's case, it's true.
3. Realize that she's right. The builder putting a duplex into her nice small-house-with-yards-and-people-who-appreciate-that does kind of ruin it. It's turned it into something else, and at her age she shouldn't have to deal with that.
Nthing the disagreement with the premise of this statement, and I don't have anything to add to Ferreous' comment, except that I somehow doubt that this is the first time this neighbor has experienced agita over a nearby building project.
Per the OP, the neighbor has resided in the same place "for many, many years." If she hasn't seen displeasing home construction in her neighborhood during this period, then she is breathing rarefied air. (Source: Parents who have lived in the same house in the same small town since 1969.)
If you can somehow demonstrate that the new thing that her neighborhood is, has advantages for her, that would be nice.
This is a more viable framing of the issue, but it's going to take some time, and the word "somehow" demonstrates the challenge.
posted by virago at 12:12 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
It sounds like she's concerned about a loss of privacy. I can relate, and I can feel sympathy for her. Privacy is the thing that is absolutely crucial to me in a home. Especially a place I can be outside and still have privacy. Absolutely crucial! Maybe you can improve the situation by doing things to help replace her sense of privacy. Hopefully things that would increase your enjoyment of your property as well. Things like planting trees or bushes that block your view of her patio or installing some sort of really attractive screen around your own patio.
I guess there are a lot of people who don't mind seeing into their neighbors yards/house/lives or having people see into their yards/houses/lives. But for some of us a loss of privacy is nails on a chalkboard level intolerable.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 12:15 PM on June 5, 2021 [6 favorites]
I guess there are a lot of people who don't mind seeing into their neighbors yards/house/lives or having people see into their yards/houses/lives. But for some of us a loss of privacy is nails on a chalkboard level intolerable.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 12:15 PM on June 5, 2021 [6 favorites]
I can understand how she feels, but her behavior is out of line. All the rest of us in society have to take a beat between a feeling and a behavior, and she isn’t doing that.
Don’t try to make friends with her; she’s unfriendly. She gets no more input into your home plans.
The sooner she realizes the situation is completely out of her control, the better. Acceptance of reality is the only way she’ll possibly calm down. Negotiating with her, treating her input as valid, trying to ingratiate yourself with her, etc. only prolong her delusion that she gets a say.
Enjoy your new home, don’t be an asshole, don’t negotiate with terrorists, and watch out for shenanigans!
posted by kapers at 12:16 PM on June 5, 2021 [10 favorites]
Don’t try to make friends with her; she’s unfriendly. She gets no more input into your home plans.
The sooner she realizes the situation is completely out of her control, the better. Acceptance of reality is the only way she’ll possibly calm down. Negotiating with her, treating her input as valid, trying to ingratiate yourself with her, etc. only prolong her delusion that she gets a say.
Enjoy your new home, don’t be an asshole, don’t negotiate with terrorists, and watch out for shenanigans!
posted by kapers at 12:16 PM on June 5, 2021 [10 favorites]
I want to push back a bit on all the people saying to not even try with this neighbor. Yes, she sounds like a tough nut to crack, but right now she views the OP as an abstraction, and it's much, much, easier to hate an abstraction. It is possible that once she starts to get to know the OP as a real person, through in-person interactions, that her tune will change (or at least mellow). The OP might end up living next to this woman for over 10 years....there is no reason to not at least try and play the long game here. Don't negotiate with her sure, but do be friendly.
(I'm coming at this from the perspective of a teacher. Every semester I have students in my classroom who initially see me mainly as an abstract "authority figure," who roll their eyes at me when I ask them to put their cell phone away, etc. And every semester, I do my best to kill them with kindness, so to speak, and every semester it works with good number of them.)
posted by coffeecat at 12:34 PM on June 5, 2021 [10 favorites]
(I'm coming at this from the perspective of a teacher. Every semester I have students in my classroom who initially see me mainly as an abstract "authority figure," who roll their eyes at me when I ask them to put their cell phone away, etc. And every semester, I do my best to kill them with kindness, so to speak, and every semester it works with good number of them.)
posted by coffeecat at 12:34 PM on June 5, 2021 [10 favorites]
I guess there are a lot of people who don't mind seeing into their neighbors yards/house/lives or having people see into their yards/houses/lives. But for some of us a loss of privacy is nails on a chalkboard level intolerable.
I'm single, I'm a woman and I live by myself on the first floor, so I absolutely agree that it's reasonable to be concerned about having your privacy disrupted. But it's unclear to me that anything short of tearing down the duplex and rebuilding somewhere else will address the neighbor's concerns.
People have accommodated the neighbor:
After she expressed concern that a dining room window "had a line of sight to her back deck," the builder "agreed to remove an entire window from the plans."
People have validated her feelings:
Told OP's partner that the building is a "monstrosity."
Informed him that she is "the leader of the block," which to me implies that her goal is to mobilize neighborhood sentiment against the building. (Whether that's possible at this stage is another matter.)
Glared at OP and OP's partner when she was in her house and they were standing in their backyard.
What else can anyone do?
posted by virago at 12:41 PM on June 5, 2021 [12 favorites]
I'm single, I'm a woman and I live by myself on the first floor, so I absolutely agree that it's reasonable to be concerned about having your privacy disrupted. But it's unclear to me that anything short of tearing down the duplex and rebuilding somewhere else will address the neighbor's concerns.
People have accommodated the neighbor:
People have validated her feelings:
- OP's partner shared what he and OP were doing to preserve her privacy: "We plan to hang blinds, and the window itself is on the side of the dining room and not oriented in such a way that anyone would be seated directly facing her deck."
What else can anyone do?
posted by virago at 12:41 PM on June 5, 2021 [12 favorites]
Yeah, the neighbor is the one who has a problem with this house, they're responsible for finding a solution. You shouldn't feel obligated to plant trees, install expensive screens/blinds, or modify home layout to placate her. She's perfectly capable of getting her own privacy solutions.
posted by Ferreous at 12:47 PM on June 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 12:47 PM on June 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
I have a neighbor is one seriously cranky lady. She’s always whining about how someone has wronged her. But she also seems to like us and is kind to our daughter. We are friendly to all our neighbors. When we put an addition on our house, we had to take down a tree that was on our shared property line but 90% on our side. She hated that tree. Complained constantly. When we took it down, we also took down the fence but she absolutely freaked out on every worker that was near her plants or bushes. She was super chill until she very much wasn’t. She came over crying when she saw we were moving our bamboo from one side of the yard to closer to hers. I get the fear but the barrier we put in was intense. Finally I just said, “[Lady], I have heard you but I need to get back to my work. I’m sorry you’re upset but we are doing this.” Then we put back up that fence as quickly as possible so she couldn’t easily harass the workers.
If you are doing right by code and by zoning, you are in the right. You can listen to her like you would a toddler. “[Person], I hear that you are upset and frustrated. I know this is a big change. I hope that when all this is done, we can be good neighbors to you. I need to get back to work now.”
Then, OMG, put back in the window! Natural light is tops!
posted by amanda at 1:19 PM on June 5, 2021 [9 favorites]
If you are doing right by code and by zoning, you are in the right. You can listen to her like you would a toddler. “[Person], I hear that you are upset and frustrated. I know this is a big change. I hope that when all this is done, we can be good neighbors to you. I need to get back to work now.”
Then, OMG, put back in the window! Natural light is tops!
posted by amanda at 1:19 PM on June 5, 2021 [9 favorites]
People don't actually have a right to live without change. This sucks for her, and she can certainly choose to make it suck for you, but that is 100% always a possibility when you move or when the people around you move (or when the people around you get weird when they used to not be weird) or when stuff just has to change - trees die/become dangerous/fall, sewers have to be rebuilt, fences need replacing, roofs have to be roofed. This is one of the reasons that home ownership isn't all bubbles and puppies, for her AND for you.
I guarantee the only real power she has in the neighborhood is being so annoying that most people give her her way. You can give in to every one of her wishes, but she's not going to pay you for it so you should just consider doing what you want that is within code and yeah, just acknowledge her like a toddler when she goes off and maybe plan to outlive her.
If you really really really want to try to appease her, you can offer to pay for her to buy one of those big cantilevered/offset umbrellas or sailcloth shades to block some line of sight, but there's no rules that guarantee you no line of sight into your back yard in most places.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:28 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
I guarantee the only real power she has in the neighborhood is being so annoying that most people give her her way. You can give in to every one of her wishes, but she's not going to pay you for it so you should just consider doing what you want that is within code and yeah, just acknowledge her like a toddler when she goes off and maybe plan to outlive her.
If you really really really want to try to appease her, you can offer to pay for her to buy one of those big cantilevered/offset umbrellas or sailcloth shades to block some line of sight, but there's no rules that guarantee you no line of sight into your back yard in most places.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:28 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
"Yeah, the neighbor is the one who has a problem with this house, they're responsible for finding a solution. You shouldn't feel obligated to plant trees, install expensive screens/blinds, or modify home layout to placate her. She's perfectly capable of getting her own privacy solutions."
Ahh, thank you, that comment leads very nicely into a little true story I can tell you about a similar situation. It takes a little set up, please bear with me.
I live in a very mixed income neighborhood. The people who live on either side of my house have large pieces of property and expensive homes. We share a private road that runs along the far south edges of our properties. On the other side of our private road are the backyards of our neighbors to the south, all of whom live in trailers or very small houses. This is an area that is gentrifying at a rapid rate. Families who have owned homes for generations are losing them to people moving in from out of state. Rental properties are being sold for big profits and people have no where to go. So with that in mind, here's what happened.
My direct next door neighbor (call them Neighbor A) decided to pull out a bunch of scrubby trees that lined the south side of our private road. This was absolutely Neighbor A's right to do. The trees were on Neighbor A's property. Neighbor B lives in the little house across the road from Neighbor A. Neighbor B rents the little place that she lives. She drives a 20 year old car and makes a living as a massage therapist. Neighbor B became very upset upon learning that Neighbor A was removing the trees. Neighbor B pointed out that while Neighbor A lives behind an 8 foot security wall and is unaware of what goes on on our private road there are several people parking in that spot (directly behind Neighbor B's little house) and selling drugs. (I have witnessed this myself when out walking the the dogs) Neighbor B had been counting on the scrubby trees as a privacy screen between herself and the drug dealers and other traffic that comes and goes along our road. Neighbor B was frightened and upset and angry. She wasn't asking nicely, she was demanding the trees be left in place. Neighbor A came to me asking what I thought about the situation. Neighbor A was determined the trees had to go! I said that I understood Neighbor B's fear and concern. I said Neighbor B was probably not in a place to be able to go out and buy any sort of privacy fence. I suggested Neighbor A offer to buy a roll of privacy screen Neighbor B could put up along her existing chain link fence. I said that I thought if Neighbor B felt more secure, she would calm down and all would be well, the trees would come out, and Neighbor B would still have her privacy. Neighbor A, instead, became fixated on the fact that "Neighbor B had NO RIGHT to tell them what they could and couldn't do with trees on their own property!!!" Far from offering any kind of assistance to Neighbor B, Neighbor A initiated an argument that led to a screaming match with Neighbor B. Now they don't speak to each other at all. Neighbor B wound up going to the dump and picking up a bunch of old wooden pallets for free so she could put them up along the inside of her chain link fence and have at least, a little privacy. Neighbor A is horrified by how the ugly wooden pallets look and worries that it lowers their property value to have such an eyesore across the road.
Me? I'm laughing my ass off. Neighbor A got just what they deserved in my opinion. They had a chance to do something kind, to be a little sympathetic, to be a better person. But no, they decided to be an entitled asshole, and now they grit their teeth and stress the f*** out every time they pull out of their big fancy gate.
So you know, take what you will from this story. I think we all have chances to NOT be the problem, but instead to behave with empathy and kindness towards our neighbors. Just depends on how you want to feel when you're living there I guess.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:34 PM on June 5, 2021 [26 favorites]
Ahh, thank you, that comment leads very nicely into a little true story I can tell you about a similar situation. It takes a little set up, please bear with me.
I live in a very mixed income neighborhood. The people who live on either side of my house have large pieces of property and expensive homes. We share a private road that runs along the far south edges of our properties. On the other side of our private road are the backyards of our neighbors to the south, all of whom live in trailers or very small houses. This is an area that is gentrifying at a rapid rate. Families who have owned homes for generations are losing them to people moving in from out of state. Rental properties are being sold for big profits and people have no where to go. So with that in mind, here's what happened.
My direct next door neighbor (call them Neighbor A) decided to pull out a bunch of scrubby trees that lined the south side of our private road. This was absolutely Neighbor A's right to do. The trees were on Neighbor A's property. Neighbor B lives in the little house across the road from Neighbor A. Neighbor B rents the little place that she lives. She drives a 20 year old car and makes a living as a massage therapist. Neighbor B became very upset upon learning that Neighbor A was removing the trees. Neighbor B pointed out that while Neighbor A lives behind an 8 foot security wall and is unaware of what goes on on our private road there are several people parking in that spot (directly behind Neighbor B's little house) and selling drugs. (I have witnessed this myself when out walking the the dogs) Neighbor B had been counting on the scrubby trees as a privacy screen between herself and the drug dealers and other traffic that comes and goes along our road. Neighbor B was frightened and upset and angry. She wasn't asking nicely, she was demanding the trees be left in place. Neighbor A came to me asking what I thought about the situation. Neighbor A was determined the trees had to go! I said that I understood Neighbor B's fear and concern. I said Neighbor B was probably not in a place to be able to go out and buy any sort of privacy fence. I suggested Neighbor A offer to buy a roll of privacy screen Neighbor B could put up along her existing chain link fence. I said that I thought if Neighbor B felt more secure, she would calm down and all would be well, the trees would come out, and Neighbor B would still have her privacy. Neighbor A, instead, became fixated on the fact that "Neighbor B had NO RIGHT to tell them what they could and couldn't do with trees on their own property!!!" Far from offering any kind of assistance to Neighbor B, Neighbor A initiated an argument that led to a screaming match with Neighbor B. Now they don't speak to each other at all. Neighbor B wound up going to the dump and picking up a bunch of old wooden pallets for free so she could put them up along the inside of her chain link fence and have at least, a little privacy. Neighbor A is horrified by how the ugly wooden pallets look and worries that it lowers their property value to have such an eyesore across the road.
Me? I'm laughing my ass off. Neighbor A got just what they deserved in my opinion. They had a chance to do something kind, to be a little sympathetic, to be a better person. But no, they decided to be an entitled asshole, and now they grit their teeth and stress the f*** out every time they pull out of their big fancy gate.
So you know, take what you will from this story. I think we all have chances to NOT be the problem, but instead to behave with empathy and kindness towards our neighbors. Just depends on how you want to feel when you're living there I guess.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:34 PM on June 5, 2021 [26 favorites]
We have a very similar-sounding neighbor situation, and similarly situated decks. Our neighbors also consider themselves authorities on how things should be done, given how long they have lived in their house, and have tried to control how we do certain things (including where we and guests park on the public street, and how we arrange things in our own yard). We tried multiple times to communicate with them and come to a shared agreement, but they weren't receptive and just kept escalating the issue and becoming more aggressive...so my current perspective is that we have the right to enjoy our home, and as long as we're trying to be decent people, their unpleasantness/unhappiness is their issue to deal with (and hopefully the other neighbors see us as we are and aren't swayed by whatever these neighbors might say about us).
Emotionally, it's hard to deal with a bad neighbor relationship, since it's right there in our faces. It helps a little to know that we genuinely tried to smooth things over. Now we just focus on what we can do from a practical perspective to separate ourselves from them. We have planted things that grow quickly, put up temporary privacy screens, and invested in a more long-term privacy screen that lets us enjoy our space without feeling like we're being watched/glared at.
Best of luck to you...I hope you end up with a home you love and a space you can fully enjoy!
posted by eseuss at 2:15 PM on June 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
Emotionally, it's hard to deal with a bad neighbor relationship, since it's right there in our faces. It helps a little to know that we genuinely tried to smooth things over. Now we just focus on what we can do from a practical perspective to separate ourselves from them. We have planted things that grow quickly, put up temporary privacy screens, and invested in a more long-term privacy screen that lets us enjoy our space without feeling like we're being watched/glared at.
Best of luck to you...I hope you end up with a home you love and a space you can fully enjoy!
posted by eseuss at 2:15 PM on June 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don’t think you’re acting or planning to act anything like Neighbour A in WalkerWestridge’s story above, so don’t worry about that. I think you have done due diligence. You met with the neighbour, found out what her concerns were, offered potential reassurances and compromises. The neighbour chose to dig her heels in and act poorly. Like seriously, glaring at you? Bragging about haranguing the builders till they removed a feature of the house? Whether true or not, it doesn’t paint her in a good light.
She sounds horrendous. Tell the builder to put the window back in the plans. I guarantee you, like someone said above, appeasement will be a failing strategy. If you give in to this, she will find something else to be angry and harangue you about. You have been very willing to have a dialogue, and she has not.
Nthing everyone who has said the real neighbourhood leaders don’t declare themselves such. Chances are she’s known as the neighbourhood terror and people just give in to her out of fear or exhaustion.
Look, I live in a quaint, friendly neighbourhood in a little old house surrounded by other little old houses; it’s probably a lot like the neighbourhood you grew up in. I’m good friends with some neighbours and friendly with the rest. I have definitely had some pangs when houses have been torn down and rebuilt or added, but guess what, I kept my opinions to myself and didn’t say anything negative to the new residents. I do not have the right to zero changes in my surroundings! Neither does your neighbour, especially when the changes are something as modest as you are describing. And I say this as someone who values privacy intensely.
In your shoes, I would probably do what eseuss suggested, putting up privacy screens or bushes etc. so I didn’t have to see anyone glaring at me when I wanted to enjoy my own back yard. It may have the added benefit of placating her, but you’re not doing to placate her; you’re doing it to make things more pleasant for you.
Focus your energy on fostering good relationships with all the other, reasonable neighbours (most of whom probably are WELL aware of what your prickly neighbour is like). Certainly continue to be cordial to her, but don’t expect that she will ever be friendly to you or you will probably just be constantly disappointed. Better to set the bar low; then, if she does mellow, it will be a nice surprise. Definitely continue to be the bigger person here, but be firm and don’t let her tantrum her way into making you change your original plans.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:43 PM on June 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
She sounds horrendous. Tell the builder to put the window back in the plans. I guarantee you, like someone said above, appeasement will be a failing strategy. If you give in to this, she will find something else to be angry and harangue you about. You have been very willing to have a dialogue, and she has not.
Nthing everyone who has said the real neighbourhood leaders don’t declare themselves such. Chances are she’s known as the neighbourhood terror and people just give in to her out of fear or exhaustion.
Look, I live in a quaint, friendly neighbourhood in a little old house surrounded by other little old houses; it’s probably a lot like the neighbourhood you grew up in. I’m good friends with some neighbours and friendly with the rest. I have definitely had some pangs when houses have been torn down and rebuilt or added, but guess what, I kept my opinions to myself and didn’t say anything negative to the new residents. I do not have the right to zero changes in my surroundings! Neither does your neighbour, especially when the changes are something as modest as you are describing. And I say this as someone who values privacy intensely.
In your shoes, I would probably do what eseuss suggested, putting up privacy screens or bushes etc. so I didn’t have to see anyone glaring at me when I wanted to enjoy my own back yard. It may have the added benefit of placating her, but you’re not doing to placate her; you’re doing it to make things more pleasant for you.
Focus your energy on fostering good relationships with all the other, reasonable neighbours (most of whom probably are WELL aware of what your prickly neighbour is like). Certainly continue to be cordial to her, but don’t expect that she will ever be friendly to you or you will probably just be constantly disappointed. Better to set the bar low; then, if she does mellow, it will be a nice surprise. Definitely continue to be the bigger person here, but be firm and don’t let her tantrum her way into making you change your original plans.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:43 PM on June 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
OP, if you and Partner offered to put in plantings, that would give you as well as your Neighbor some privacy, as hurdy gurdy girl points out.You'd also be tacitly acknowledging that change is hard, and that it's not surprising that Neighbor feels like she's lost her own space.
In the spirit of "A good compromise is where both parties are dissatisfied," Neighbor does NOT get to harass the people building your home or make unilateral decisions about what your home will look like. If she keeps criticizing your home to your face, change the subject to the plantings, what does she prefer, what would work the best, etc.
Best case scenario: Per Walker Westridge's road-not-taken story: I suggested Neighbor A offer to buy a roll of privacy screen Neighbor B could put up along her existing chain link fence. I said that I thought if Neighbor B felt more secure, she would calm down and all would be well, ...
Also, Neighbor may keep complaining once you've moved in and the plantings have been planted, if you decide to go that route. Respond with cheery yadayadayada about the plantings and how fast they'll grow and how you're maintaining them and isn't this a lovely summer, etc. (This would be an extinction burst, which is when a person whose unwanted behavior is no longer being reinforced escalates the behavior in the hope of getting the response they want.)
posted by virago at 4:25 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
In the spirit of "A good compromise is where both parties are dissatisfied," Neighbor does NOT get to harass the people building your home or make unilateral decisions about what your home will look like. If she keeps criticizing your home to your face, change the subject to the plantings, what does she prefer, what would work the best, etc.
Best case scenario: Per Walker Westridge's road-not-taken story: I suggested Neighbor A offer to buy a roll of privacy screen Neighbor B could put up along her existing chain link fence. I said that I thought if Neighbor B felt more secure, she would calm down and all would be well, ...
Also, Neighbor may keep complaining once you've moved in and the plantings have been planted, if you decide to go that route. Respond with cheery yadayadayada about the plantings and how fast they'll grow and how you're maintaining them and isn't this a lovely summer, etc. (This would be an extinction burst, which is when a person whose unwanted behavior is no longer being reinforced escalates the behavior in the hope of getting the response they want.)
posted by virago at 4:25 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
I would come up with a single line to repeat whenever she complains; something like "It must be really hard when your neighborhood changes." Don't engage with the complaints beyond that, and be otherwise friendly. I agree with others that offering to address her issues encourages her to keep at it. Do the things you want to do and if they happen to make her happy, that's good, but don't point out the benefits to her.
(Also, as a practical solution so you can enjoy your deck without glaring, I have this retractable privacy screen that is still in perfect condition after three years and is surprisingly affordable.)
posted by metasarah at 4:41 PM on June 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
(Also, as a practical solution so you can enjoy your deck without glaring, I have this retractable privacy screen that is still in perfect condition after three years and is surprisingly affordable.)
posted by metasarah at 4:41 PM on June 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
It's a never-ending saga with no perfect resolution. Affluent-Lane is lined with beautiful vintage homes, half of them have massive multi-story back-additions, and the half that doesn't have nice affluent old people who vehemently complain (with reasonable justification!) about all of that crazy noise dust & mayhem. After the dust finally settles, the old folks move on or something, someone else buys their place, and the process starts up again. After an entire year of listening to complaints, the clients finally settle into the rec room of their brand new addition, and start hearing all of that crazy noise dust & mayhem from right beside them start up again...
I worked with a General Contractor who visited adjoining neighbours and poured on the charm when starting projects with close property-lines, just telling them about the project and asking for patience politely. It helped a lot. We really needed it, because with tight property lines we often actually needed their permission to access their driveways in order to deliver some supplies or set up scaffolding to complete the work. If they just wanted to say "No Way Man" it would've been a major set-back for the project.
We actually did move a window placement on a neighbour request, but that was a client final decision. Hey who really wants to stare at neighbours? We often put narrow windows horizontal high up on the sideways-facing walls on the main floor for light + privacy.
In other stories, tradesmen stepping/trespassing on neighbouring property-lines without permission, trampling flowers, damaging properties, and leaving a mess, is a bad thing that often happens, and makes everyone upset.
In conclusion: In any situation, we should always Try to be as Nice as humanly possible to our next-door neighbours, even if they're grumpy, and especially if we are doing construction projects next door to them, which is very annoying for them. This does not mean giving in to their every demand, just being as nice as humanly possible.
(There's no reason not to try to be nice, unless someone threatens you, that's different).
posted by ovvl at 6:45 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
I worked with a General Contractor who visited adjoining neighbours and poured on the charm when starting projects with close property-lines, just telling them about the project and asking for patience politely. It helped a lot. We really needed it, because with tight property lines we often actually needed their permission to access their driveways in order to deliver some supplies or set up scaffolding to complete the work. If they just wanted to say "No Way Man" it would've been a major set-back for the project.
We actually did move a window placement on a neighbour request, but that was a client final decision. Hey who really wants to stare at neighbours? We often put narrow windows horizontal high up on the sideways-facing walls on the main floor for light + privacy.
In other stories, tradesmen stepping/trespassing on neighbouring property-lines without permission, trampling flowers, damaging properties, and leaving a mess, is a bad thing that often happens, and makes everyone upset.
In conclusion: In any situation, we should always Try to be as Nice as humanly possible to our next-door neighbours, even if they're grumpy, and especially if we are doing construction projects next door to them, which is very annoying for them. This does not mean giving in to their every demand, just being as nice as humanly possible.
(There's no reason not to try to be nice, unless someone threatens you, that's different).
posted by ovvl at 6:45 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
I would avoid her to the extent humanly possible and carry on with your life and your plans for windows and use of your back deck as if she didn’t exist.
If you decide you would like privacy for yourself, depending on the zone you’re in and how many deer you have around, I recommend looking into the American Pillar variety of arborvitae as a narrow, fast growing privacy hedge.
posted by slateyness at 11:01 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
If you decide you would like privacy for yourself, depending on the zone you’re in and how many deer you have around, I recommend looking into the American Pillar variety of arborvitae as a narrow, fast growing privacy hedge.
posted by slateyness at 11:01 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
empathy != agreement. You can understand her point of view of the 'neighborhood being ruined' without agreeing with it. You can keep boundaries and still feel her as a human being with a valid emotional life.
And, of course, protect yourself emotionally by not engaging with her when you can't do it safely for yourself -- but if you can, when you can, when you feel you have the ability to be kind to her and yourself, use that ability.
posted by amtho at 4:32 AM on June 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
And, of course, protect yourself emotionally by not engaging with her when you can't do it safely for yourself -- but if you can, when you can, when you feel you have the ability to be kind to her and yourself, use that ability.
posted by amtho at 4:32 AM on June 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Every neighborhood has one of these people. Based on my experiences, you will have very little success moving this person's opinion. If your neighbor is anything like mine, you may find yourself with extra inspectors or with inspectors being hassled when they show up. Depending on the size of your town, the inspectors may be very familiar with your neighbor and hold them in very low esteem.
I took the appeasement strategy with mine. It didn't work and I had to eventually bar him from my property. Most of the people on the street have taken the same strategy.
You should put a physical barrier between your yard and your neighbor. It may cost some money, but you will be buying peace of mind and the ability to enjoy your own property.
(NB: "!=" is programmer speak for "not equal to")
posted by donpardo at 5:31 AM on June 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I took the appeasement strategy with mine. It didn't work and I had to eventually bar him from my property. Most of the people on the street have taken the same strategy.
You should put a physical barrier between your yard and your neighbor. It may cost some money, but you will be buying peace of mind and the ability to enjoy your own property.
(NB: "!=" is programmer speak for "not equal to")
posted by donpardo at 5:31 AM on June 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
“Ask your landscaper to plant the fastest growing trees they have, to make a leafy screen between you and the neighbor.”
I faced this problem years ago, and built a 3-4’ high raised bed the length of the property line, lined it as needed, and planted running bamboo in it. If you live in a colder area, you could plant clumping bamboo directly into the ground. But bamboo grows really high, thick and fast, lets the light dapple through, and makes wonderful ASMR sounds in a breeze.
posted by mmiddle at 7:19 AM on June 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
I faced this problem years ago, and built a 3-4’ high raised bed the length of the property line, lined it as needed, and planted running bamboo in it. If you live in a colder area, you could plant clumping bamboo directly into the ground. But bamboo grows really high, thick and fast, lets the light dapple through, and makes wonderful ASMR sounds in a breeze.
posted by mmiddle at 7:19 AM on June 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
I faced this problem years ago, and built a 3-4’ high raised bed the length of the property line, lined it as needed, and planted running bamboo in it.
Do not do this. Running bamboo is extremely aggressive, will expand EVERYWHERE, is nearly impossible to eradicate, and can destroy foundations and puncture sewer / water lines. If she finds bamboo on her side of the fence or near her foundation your problems will get 10,000x worse.
posted by 100kb at 3:56 PM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Do not do this. Running bamboo is extremely aggressive, will expand EVERYWHERE, is nearly impossible to eradicate, and can destroy foundations and puncture sewer / water lines. If she finds bamboo on her side of the fence or near her foundation your problems will get 10,000x worse.
posted by 100kb at 3:56 PM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Let's not derail into a bamboo conversation! If you are interested in bamboo - there are a number of sources out there which detail proper installation. Consider hiring a bamboo professional if you go this route.
posted by amanda at 11:58 AM on June 8, 2021
posted by amanda at 11:58 AM on June 8, 2021
My impression of this whole thing is that the lady is going to be a chronic crank who cannot be pacified about anything, and I bet if you asked around the neighborhood, others would say the same.
I would do my best to put up as much privacy stuff as you can on your end. I cannot advise you as to what, but it seems the others in the thread could.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:05 PM on June 8, 2021
I would do my best to put up as much privacy stuff as you can on your end. I cannot advise you as to what, but it seems the others in the thread could.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:05 PM on June 8, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:27 AM on June 5, 2021 [179 favorites]