Intelligent women: How do you be yourself freely?
March 8, 2021 2:01 PM Subscribe
I am smart. I was a gifted kid (I went through the assessments but not the program) and still have the same traits as an adult. I learn things extremely quickly, I'm very curious, I love connecting ideas and finding patterns and asking questions. I have accumulated a lot of skills and have knowledge in many areas. Since childhood I've felt like my intelligence is a burden, especially in my body and social strata (female, fat, poor, not attractive). I have always had to deal with people who go out of their way to make sure I know that they don't think I'm smart. They try to dominate me and catch me making mistakes. I try to make myself small and quiet, but eventually I forget myself and slip up, and then I'm punished for it. "Punishment" comes in various forms. Bullying/harassment, a bad formal assessment, accusations that I think I'm better than everyone else, even firing.
I want to say that I know this question and how I talk about myself makes me seem arrogant and insufferable and undeserving of advice, but I had to avoid denigrating myself like I usually do so I could communicate my issue properly. I also apologise for how long this is.
Here are some examples of what I mean by being "punished." (Note: I am not interested in advice on how I should have handled these situations):
- I recently used the word "apropos" in an email to work colleagues. My boss told me to stop showing off. This is a recurring issue in my current work situation, as I am the only formally trained and experienced designer on my team and the rest are amateur designers learning on the job. So naturally I know more about the field and the processes and my work tends to be of higher quality than the rest of the team's. That's just what happens when you've had more practice. But I feel like my existence makes some people on my team feel insecure and threatened. If I make any misstep or oversight it's called out immediately by my boss or a colleague. This does not happen to others on the team.
I do not critique others' work without being asked, and I am careful to only speak about and to my peers positively. I do write a lot of informative papers and tutorials for the team as I've been asked to by my boss, but they are received as personal insults by some of my coworkers. For example, at my boss's request I wrote a quick primer about designing materials for print and got an angry email from a coworker stating that she didn't understand why I sent this to her because she already knew it all. 1) It was sent to the entire team, and 2) she didn't know pre-press processes and it was evident in her work. I didn't say any of this to her, of course, because I knew I'd get taken to task for being arrogant and mean. But this kind of thing makes me feel so deflated. I work with a man who is far below me in skill and experience; he's given all the plum projects to work on, and then I'm pulled in to fix his errors. He gets the credit. He brags about himself to the group endlessly and is never chided for it, whereas I can't even type "apropos" safely.
- My contract was not renewed at a prior job. I was hired for a year's contract and was doing well until three male superiors organized a campaign to get rid of me. At first everything was fine, but then the CEO started asking me to do more complex tasks than what I had been hired to do. I had been hired as a temporary executive assistant, but was asked to chair committee meetings, do all the org's graphic design, and write content for membership communications. The three men lied to me, stole my work and ideas, blocked me from getting high-visibility projects, and told lies about me to the CEO and other staff. I think the final straw was when I was asked to write a white paper and the difference in quality between my work and the work these men had been producing was very obvious. The paper also got a lot of positive feedback and attention from our membership and our sister organizations' leadership. I probably should have produced something mediocre, but I was excited to do something interesting and challenging. Please know that I did not gloat or rub it in anyone's face.
- I had issues through grade school and even university with some teachers and instructors who were threatened by me. I learned early on to never speak out of turn and to absolutely never correct anything my teachers said, but I still ran into problems. My advisor in my last year of my BA blocked my email address, complained to the program head that I wasn't submitting my honours' work to her and wouldn't meet with her (...because she had blocked me and wasn't getting my emails, and was avoiding talking to me), and was telling others that I was a bad student and lazy. My uncle happened to work and share an office with my advisor's daughter, and when he told her that I was applying to a competitive work-study program she said, paraphrased, "don't get your hopes up. I know your niece and she's way too old and doesn't have what it takes. They only accept the best." I had been getting similar messaging from her mother all year. (I did get into the work-study program and won a scholarship to cover the costs. I also had the highest GPA in my department's graduating class so I was clearly not lazy or a bad student.)
Remember when Gracie Cunningham asked a question about math on TikTok and she was eviscerated for asking such a stupid question, but then it turned out her question was actually important and interesting? That's basically my life in a nutshell. I ask a question or suggest a solution to a problem, get told I'm stupid and uppity, and then it turns out I was on the right track all along. I'm fucking tired of it. I'm tired of contorting myself to be small and quiet and inoffensive. I'm tired of being told I'm stupid or showing off or pretentious when I'm just existing. I'm tired of not being able to use the words I want to use, or to talk about my interests and my passions. I'm tired of people expecting me to be unintelligent, unambitious and lazy because of my appearance, and then having to deal with their rage when it turns out I'm not any of those things. And I want to be able to make mistakes and try things without being eviscerated for it because I'm supposed to be all-knowing and perfect every minute of the day.
How do you do it? How do you get people to see you and recognize your strengths, especially when you don't look like society's idea of a smart, capable person? How do you find work that isn't horribly boring and constraining and organizations to work for that aren't filled with people trying to push your under? How do you swallow the constant indignities? The misogyny? The prejudice (I know some of you face bigger barriers than I do)? How do you feel smart inside? I've been saying I'm intelligent throughout this question, and the evidence is there in my life, but I don't feel it and I'm not confident about it (wonder why...). I'm asking this question now because I've just realized, with the help of my therapist, how much this has been harming me psychologically and stalling my personal and professional growth.
I want to say that I know this question and how I talk about myself makes me seem arrogant and insufferable and undeserving of advice, but I had to avoid denigrating myself like I usually do so I could communicate my issue properly. I also apologise for how long this is.
Here are some examples of what I mean by being "punished." (Note: I am not interested in advice on how I should have handled these situations):
- I recently used the word "apropos" in an email to work colleagues. My boss told me to stop showing off. This is a recurring issue in my current work situation, as I am the only formally trained and experienced designer on my team and the rest are amateur designers learning on the job. So naturally I know more about the field and the processes and my work tends to be of higher quality than the rest of the team's. That's just what happens when you've had more practice. But I feel like my existence makes some people on my team feel insecure and threatened. If I make any misstep or oversight it's called out immediately by my boss or a colleague. This does not happen to others on the team.
I do not critique others' work without being asked, and I am careful to only speak about and to my peers positively. I do write a lot of informative papers and tutorials for the team as I've been asked to by my boss, but they are received as personal insults by some of my coworkers. For example, at my boss's request I wrote a quick primer about designing materials for print and got an angry email from a coworker stating that she didn't understand why I sent this to her because she already knew it all. 1) It was sent to the entire team, and 2) she didn't know pre-press processes and it was evident in her work. I didn't say any of this to her, of course, because I knew I'd get taken to task for being arrogant and mean. But this kind of thing makes me feel so deflated. I work with a man who is far below me in skill and experience; he's given all the plum projects to work on, and then I'm pulled in to fix his errors. He gets the credit. He brags about himself to the group endlessly and is never chided for it, whereas I can't even type "apropos" safely.
- My contract was not renewed at a prior job. I was hired for a year's contract and was doing well until three male superiors organized a campaign to get rid of me. At first everything was fine, but then the CEO started asking me to do more complex tasks than what I had been hired to do. I had been hired as a temporary executive assistant, but was asked to chair committee meetings, do all the org's graphic design, and write content for membership communications. The three men lied to me, stole my work and ideas, blocked me from getting high-visibility projects, and told lies about me to the CEO and other staff. I think the final straw was when I was asked to write a white paper and the difference in quality between my work and the work these men had been producing was very obvious. The paper also got a lot of positive feedback and attention from our membership and our sister organizations' leadership. I probably should have produced something mediocre, but I was excited to do something interesting and challenging. Please know that I did not gloat or rub it in anyone's face.
- I had issues through grade school and even university with some teachers and instructors who were threatened by me. I learned early on to never speak out of turn and to absolutely never correct anything my teachers said, but I still ran into problems. My advisor in my last year of my BA blocked my email address, complained to the program head that I wasn't submitting my honours' work to her and wouldn't meet with her (...because she had blocked me and wasn't getting my emails, and was avoiding talking to me), and was telling others that I was a bad student and lazy. My uncle happened to work and share an office with my advisor's daughter, and when he told her that I was applying to a competitive work-study program she said, paraphrased, "don't get your hopes up. I know your niece and she's way too old and doesn't have what it takes. They only accept the best." I had been getting similar messaging from her mother all year. (I did get into the work-study program and won a scholarship to cover the costs. I also had the highest GPA in my department's graduating class so I was clearly not lazy or a bad student.)
Remember when Gracie Cunningham asked a question about math on TikTok and she was eviscerated for asking such a stupid question, but then it turned out her question was actually important and interesting? That's basically my life in a nutshell. I ask a question or suggest a solution to a problem, get told I'm stupid and uppity, and then it turns out I was on the right track all along. I'm fucking tired of it. I'm tired of contorting myself to be small and quiet and inoffensive. I'm tired of being told I'm stupid or showing off or pretentious when I'm just existing. I'm tired of not being able to use the words I want to use, or to talk about my interests and my passions. I'm tired of people expecting me to be unintelligent, unambitious and lazy because of my appearance, and then having to deal with their rage when it turns out I'm not any of those things. And I want to be able to make mistakes and try things without being eviscerated for it because I'm supposed to be all-knowing and perfect every minute of the day.
How do you do it? How do you get people to see you and recognize your strengths, especially when you don't look like society's idea of a smart, capable person? How do you find work that isn't horribly boring and constraining and organizations to work for that aren't filled with people trying to push your under? How do you swallow the constant indignities? The misogyny? The prejudice (I know some of you face bigger barriers than I do)? How do you feel smart inside? I've been saying I'm intelligent throughout this question, and the evidence is there in my life, but I don't feel it and I'm not confident about it (wonder why...). I'm asking this question now because I've just realized, with the help of my therapist, how much this has been harming me psychologically and stalling my personal and professional growth.
Hi there!
I'd like to preface this advice by saying that I understand where you are coming from. I, like everyone, have many shortcomings, and I also grew up smart, able to coast past others in many subjects, often at the displeasure of those superior and nearby my own status.
At some point, something clicked for me. Rather than categorizing people into "competent" vs "useless" - I sort of realized that, while someone couldn't use a keyboard to type quickly, they might have skills that I don't possess.
This is helped by the idea that for each skill, life works like a roll playing game. I might have excel skill level of 99 after sinking 20,000 hours into data entry, but my manager might have people skills of 50 to my 10, just because that's what he focuses on.
I think it's really easy for people like us to get frustrated by others lack of hard skills, when we might be lacking ourselves in soft skills. Simple things about when to make eye contact, and how much, how to shake hands, how to appear "easy to talk to" are all things I am constantly working on. And Ted, over in sales, who can't do formulas in Excel? He's an absolute natural at it.
Most people don't want to dominate the smart people, and they aren't jealous. But, if your social skills aren't a high enough level, people can often get annoyed into dislike by faux pas.
I like to give actionable advice in a numbered list. Sourced from above:
1. Think differently about those around you as, instead of not smart, earlier on the learning track (and moving at a different speed) than you are for specific areas. You may (or may not) still have some things to learn from them in other areas.
2. Work on your soft skills. Does "being yourself" allow for smiling during conversations, making excellent small talk, getting to know others' families in a way that makes people like you? After each conversation with others, ask yourself what the other person thought of the way you spoke.
3. You mention being female, fat, poor, and ugly. I don't think any of these things matter, and I would never ask you to change them for society. But, ask yourself if you meet the basic hygiene and dress requirements of a current job. My brother was once terminated shortly after refusal to wear business professional clothes at work for 'unrelated reasons'.
4. Ask friends for feedback on how you come across to people. Are you polite? Do you make a good first impression? How could that improve?
I hope you know that the above is indeed my perspective, and I hope none of it comes across as rude.
Last, you ask: How do you find work that isn't horribly boring and constraining and organizations to work for that aren't filled with people trying to push your under?
In my life, when I had a bad fit with a job, my job felt terribly boring, constraining, the company going nowhere, and awful. But, when I had a good fit for my job / coworkers / managers, my job felt exciting, cutting edge, and like the company was going places. I think what makes the biggest difference is your immediate manager - do they support you, give you what you need to be successful, fight for you and defend you and show you off? Or do they do none of that. In todays world, it's hard to know what your manager will truly be like before taking a job. But once you get a good one, never let them go.
posted by bbqturtle at 2:43 PM on March 8, 2021 [24 favorites]
I'd like to preface this advice by saying that I understand where you are coming from. I, like everyone, have many shortcomings, and I also grew up smart, able to coast past others in many subjects, often at the displeasure of those superior and nearby my own status.
At some point, something clicked for me. Rather than categorizing people into "competent" vs "useless" - I sort of realized that, while someone couldn't use a keyboard to type quickly, they might have skills that I don't possess.
This is helped by the idea that for each skill, life works like a roll playing game. I might have excel skill level of 99 after sinking 20,000 hours into data entry, but my manager might have people skills of 50 to my 10, just because that's what he focuses on.
I think it's really easy for people like us to get frustrated by others lack of hard skills, when we might be lacking ourselves in soft skills. Simple things about when to make eye contact, and how much, how to shake hands, how to appear "easy to talk to" are all things I am constantly working on. And Ted, over in sales, who can't do formulas in Excel? He's an absolute natural at it.
Most people don't want to dominate the smart people, and they aren't jealous. But, if your social skills aren't a high enough level, people can often get annoyed into dislike by faux pas.
I like to give actionable advice in a numbered list. Sourced from above:
1. Think differently about those around you as, instead of not smart, earlier on the learning track (and moving at a different speed) than you are for specific areas. You may (or may not) still have some things to learn from them in other areas.
2. Work on your soft skills. Does "being yourself" allow for smiling during conversations, making excellent small talk, getting to know others' families in a way that makes people like you? After each conversation with others, ask yourself what the other person thought of the way you spoke.
3. You mention being female, fat, poor, and ugly. I don't think any of these things matter, and I would never ask you to change them for society. But, ask yourself if you meet the basic hygiene and dress requirements of a current job. My brother was once terminated shortly after refusal to wear business professional clothes at work for 'unrelated reasons'.
4. Ask friends for feedback on how you come across to people. Are you polite? Do you make a good first impression? How could that improve?
I hope you know that the above is indeed my perspective, and I hope none of it comes across as rude.
Last, you ask: How do you find work that isn't horribly boring and constraining and organizations to work for that aren't filled with people trying to push your under?
In my life, when I had a bad fit with a job, my job felt terribly boring, constraining, the company going nowhere, and awful. But, when I had a good fit for my job / coworkers / managers, my job felt exciting, cutting edge, and like the company was going places. I think what makes the biggest difference is your immediate manager - do they support you, give you what you need to be successful, fight for you and defend you and show you off? Or do they do none of that. In todays world, it's hard to know what your manager will truly be like before taking a job. But once you get a good one, never let them go.
posted by bbqturtle at 2:43 PM on March 8, 2021 [24 favorites]
I suggest asking your therapist about how they experience you. Do they have any insights into what might be eliciting some of these hostile responses from others? I do NOT mean, "How is this your fault?" But rather: what can you understand about your side of these dynamics? Are there strategies you haven't tried that could be worth experimenting with, such as bbqturtle's suggestions above? Can you notice things about your persona in therapy vs. your professional persona that might shed some light? (I ask this as someone who can come across as aloof in a group because I get quiet and look very serious when I'm nervous.) I also wonder if it'd be worth ruling out autism, given that this has been happening your whole life and girls are often overlooked when it comes to being diagnosed with autism. Many autistic people have the experience of being judged, ostracized, or punished for doing exactly what they're told to do but not perceiving the unwritten social rules and expectations.
Another thing to consider: are you in a field that's particularly dysfunctional or full of toxic organizations? In the US, I'd say that academia, the nonprofit sector, and the entertainment industry are pretty famously egregious when it comes to fostering toxic workplaces and pitting people against each other. Might you be in one of those or a similar field? If so, finding a more senior person to be your mentor could be a really helpful step. A mentor can help you get to a place of, "I'm not crazy to think my coworkers are biased against women, but here's how I can navigate it successfully, even though I should be able to just show up and do my job."
(Also, you say you know this question makes you sound arrogant... it really doesn't. It reads like someone who doesn't want to bother with false modesty, recognizes her strengths, and wants help with a dilemma she can't solve on her own.)
posted by theotherdurassister at 2:50 PM on March 8, 2021 [27 favorites]
Another thing to consider: are you in a field that's particularly dysfunctional or full of toxic organizations? In the US, I'd say that academia, the nonprofit sector, and the entertainment industry are pretty famously egregious when it comes to fostering toxic workplaces and pitting people against each other. Might you be in one of those or a similar field? If so, finding a more senior person to be your mentor could be a really helpful step. A mentor can help you get to a place of, "I'm not crazy to think my coworkers are biased against women, but here's how I can navigate it successfully, even though I should be able to just show up and do my job."
(Also, you say you know this question makes you sound arrogant... it really doesn't. It reads like someone who doesn't want to bother with false modesty, recognizes her strengths, and wants help with a dilemma she can't solve on her own.)
posted by theotherdurassister at 2:50 PM on March 8, 2021 [27 favorites]
I am a woman in the US. I’d hazard a guess that I’m either relatively intelligent (based on test scores/schoolwork/propensity for learning new tasks, etc.), or at least very intelligent comparatively speaking relative to the coworkers I’ve had in the 20 years I’ve had in the workforce and at least the majority of my classmates (I didn’t choose strenuous programs because I have a fear of failure/rejection, but I did well without really investing myself). I work in a male-dominated environment. For many years, I kowtowed to others and even degraded myself while hiding who I am because I am “a bitch, a c***, pushy, abrasive, ‘a problem’, intimidating, etc.;” all the adjectives. The only thing that has lessened that somewhat is proving my ability to do the job, seniority, and rank, in addition to occasionally having supervisors who value my work ethic and leadership while ignoring the fact that I’m female (and that’s ok, I guess). A few years ago, I just kind of gave up? I know my career probably won’t move forward; I know I probably won’t get remarried and after my situationship is done, I probably won’t date again. It sucks, but I have reconciled the fact that I still have integrity and I am true to myself. I look for challenges outside of work and interpersonal relationships (I am fortunate to have some wonderful friends) to keep my brain engaged and find solace in learning how to do things well and try to do stuff for me, rather than tick anyone else’s boxes.
I don’t have any specific advice except to tell you to damn the torpedoes and be true to yourself. I have been able to relieve a lot of stress by knowing I can look myself in the mirror.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 3:01 PM on March 8, 2021 [14 favorites]
I don’t have any specific advice except to tell you to damn the torpedoes and be true to yourself. I have been able to relieve a lot of stress by knowing I can look myself in the mirror.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 3:01 PM on March 8, 2021 [14 favorites]
In these covidey remote working times, could you look for online gigs (freelance or permanent) where it's easier to be judged on your work instead of your looks, sex, etc, and your intelligence and experience would be seen as definite assets?
posted by signal at 3:06 PM on March 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by signal at 3:06 PM on March 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think your question breaks down into two pieces:
1. How you see and treat yourself
2. How others see you and treat you
I think the answer to both is to put less emphasis on the opinions and actions of other. This can be tricky for those of us raised as women because we have been told from day one that our worth and safety are dependent on valuing the opinions of others over our own. If you can find a way to reinforce to yourself that the opinions of your coworkers aren't important, you can start to be more clear-eyed about your own opinion about yourself. Perhaps take time every day to think about something you've done that you are proud of and give yourself a pat on the back for it.
Now, how does this solve the second piece? If you start to see that the opinion of others isn't the arbiter of your worth you might be able to see ways to game the system at work. You'll be able to prioritize what you want. If your goal is, for example, to get a promotion you might decide to "dumb down" your email messages -- and this act will not feel like an assault on your intelligence but rather a conscious choice to get what you do want.
And I want to reinforce for you that this is a real struggle for women. Intelligent women are often torn down -- and then blamed for the attacks. Anyone who says otherwise is gaslighting you or does not understand the very particular way the gender plays into this dynamic.
posted by mcduff at 3:07 PM on March 8, 2021 [30 favorites]
1. How you see and treat yourself
2. How others see you and treat you
I think the answer to both is to put less emphasis on the opinions and actions of other. This can be tricky for those of us raised as women because we have been told from day one that our worth and safety are dependent on valuing the opinions of others over our own. If you can find a way to reinforce to yourself that the opinions of your coworkers aren't important, you can start to be more clear-eyed about your own opinion about yourself. Perhaps take time every day to think about something you've done that you are proud of and give yourself a pat on the back for it.
Now, how does this solve the second piece? If you start to see that the opinion of others isn't the arbiter of your worth you might be able to see ways to game the system at work. You'll be able to prioritize what you want. If your goal is, for example, to get a promotion you might decide to "dumb down" your email messages -- and this act will not feel like an assault on your intelligence but rather a conscious choice to get what you do want.
And I want to reinforce for you that this is a real struggle for women. Intelligent women are often torn down -- and then blamed for the attacks. Anyone who says otherwise is gaslighting you or does not understand the very particular way the gender plays into this dynamic.
posted by mcduff at 3:07 PM on March 8, 2021 [30 favorites]
I am fat and female, and of an age that is read automatically as "unattractive" in my society. I know whereof you speak. I've been punished for (exact quote) "asking too many questions" at work. I have been treated like the secretary when I was in a professional role. I absolutely hear you on men (especially white, affluent-seeming men) being congratulated and rewarded for the same type of achievements, behavior, statements that I have been ignored or actively punished for.
I've also lived in a young conventionally-attractive body and I know the extreme difference in the way I was treated. I was seen and heard by people to whom I am invisible as a larger older woman.
I know how I have been treated by many when poor, or unemployed, or when I was in an undervalued, female-coded profession (massage therapy). I have been treated better by *some* people when I had a job title (computer programmer) that was more valued, or when I worked at a place with visibility (NASA).
Isms are alive and well in our society. Sexism, racism, ageism, classism and more. Even people who sometimes identify that those things are wrong will habitually practice them. People who know that not hiring someone or not paying them market rate because they are not an able-bodied affluent white male will still engage in, and rationalize, the microaggressions that constitute the "death of a thousand cuts" on a daily basis.
To add insult to injury, in most circles I've ever been a part of or observed, people adamantly believe in Just World Theory. They assume that you deserve whatever you get. So they will look for things you did wrong, when sometimes, living in a fat, female body is your only crime.
Even the first answer in this thread, instead of helping you, is illustrating how society for the most part adamantly believes in a Just World; they leap to the assumption that you must not dress right, or practice good hygiene,, or you must have poor social skills
rather that acknowledging that injustice happens and that factors outside your control may be at play.
I share your sense of having been psychologically harmed by the way I've been treated. I also grew up testing as extremely intelligent, but in my adult life have become aware of not even being considered as a possible Smart Person in some contexts. I have seen white men consulted about things I knew much more about. I have encountered people who won't even meet my eyes.. People are often very lazy and cursory in their summing-up of others.
I don't have a solution for you. I'm pretty much in the same place you are. I feel damaged and alienated and perpetually undervalued. I feel angry at a society that often lionizes the unworthy. I wonder sometimes how certain experiences in my life would have gone differently if I were read as someone worth listening to.
If you want to memail, I'd be happy to chat.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 3:10 PM on March 8, 2021 [71 favorites]
I've also lived in a young conventionally-attractive body and I know the extreme difference in the way I was treated. I was seen and heard by people to whom I am invisible as a larger older woman.
I know how I have been treated by many when poor, or unemployed, or when I was in an undervalued, female-coded profession (massage therapy). I have been treated better by *some* people when I had a job title (computer programmer) that was more valued, or when I worked at a place with visibility (NASA).
Isms are alive and well in our society. Sexism, racism, ageism, classism and more. Even people who sometimes identify that those things are wrong will habitually practice them. People who know that not hiring someone or not paying them market rate because they are not an able-bodied affluent white male will still engage in, and rationalize, the microaggressions that constitute the "death of a thousand cuts" on a daily basis.
To add insult to injury, in most circles I've ever been a part of or observed, people adamantly believe in Just World Theory. They assume that you deserve whatever you get. So they will look for things you did wrong, when sometimes, living in a fat, female body is your only crime.
Even the first answer in this thread, instead of helping you, is illustrating how society for the most part adamantly believes in a Just World; they leap to the assumption that you must not dress right, or practice good hygiene,, or you must have poor social skills
rather that acknowledging that injustice happens and that factors outside your control may be at play.
I share your sense of having been psychologically harmed by the way I've been treated. I also grew up testing as extremely intelligent, but in my adult life have become aware of not even being considered as a possible Smart Person in some contexts. I have seen white men consulted about things I knew much more about. I have encountered people who won't even meet my eyes.. People are often very lazy and cursory in their summing-up of others.
I don't have a solution for you. I'm pretty much in the same place you are. I feel damaged and alienated and perpetually undervalued. I feel angry at a society that often lionizes the unworthy. I wonder sometimes how certain experiences in my life would have gone differently if I were read as someone worth listening to.
If you want to memail, I'd be happy to chat.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 3:10 PM on March 8, 2021 [71 favorites]
I've cultivated a professional image that allows for a level of eccentricity. I display that physically and it means when I use weird language it's accepted as part of the whole "weird dr anachronism" thing. In terms of work I've also come to value the fact that I am weird and somewhat intimidating sometimes. Some people dislike it, some are neutral, some prefer it, and the latter have made for very strong connections and peers and friends. I don't ever mean to be intimidating, but that's how I'm read - in some situations I actively work on making myself less so, but others I don't. I recognise the game being played and I make a choice to participate - I don't make myself mask up and be soft and unintimidating all the time because it doesn't work, it can't, because it's not entirely about you.
I also very much cultivate friends who appreciate who I am, in all those facets. So I can talk data and sociology with my professor friend but we also laugh ourselves sick at silly memes and the antics of our kids. I can spend an hour telling my date about the intricacies of cinema culture in the early 1900s but we also connected because of our shared interest in weird corners of the internet and love of wordplay. It can take time to find those people but it helps.
When I was really feeling all of what you wrote, I read The Sea and Little Fishes by Terry Pratchett. It helped a lot. Being smart and awkward in a world that doesnt like either thing is hard. But being who you really are is worth it.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:11 PM on March 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
I also very much cultivate friends who appreciate who I am, in all those facets. So I can talk data and sociology with my professor friend but we also laugh ourselves sick at silly memes and the antics of our kids. I can spend an hour telling my date about the intricacies of cinema culture in the early 1900s but we also connected because of our shared interest in weird corners of the internet and love of wordplay. It can take time to find those people but it helps.
When I was really feeling all of what you wrote, I read The Sea and Little Fishes by Terry Pratchett. It helped a lot. Being smart and awkward in a world that doesnt like either thing is hard. But being who you really are is worth it.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:11 PM on March 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
It really does seem like you've had a shit time of it and that sucks. As an AFAB person who is also fat and intelligent, I've experienced a taste of this, especially earlier in my career, and it sucks. So I don't want any of the following to be taken as a repudiation of the idea that this kind of discrimination exists. It does, and it sucks.
One thing that does sort of leap out at me from your post is that there seems to be some black and white thinking going on - you can either be really arrogant and pushy OR super meek and self-effacing. I wonder if you were ever taught (by parents, teachers, coaches, whatever) HOW to share knowledge and show intelligence in a way that wasn't arrogant (or called arrogant by authorities and/or peers)?
Another thing I've been thinking about lately is how much of a difference it makes to work with people who value you, and who you in turn value. This factor really plays so much of a role in determining someone's career. And I think there are two aspects to this. One, is finding places to work where you are valued. This is easier said than done, but I do think it's fair to make that a key aspect when you are vetting potential jobs, or deciding whether or not to stay in a particular job. Try as much as you can to work with people who do value what you have to offer, and when you find them, stick with them. It sounds like you are very talented and you know your shit. Those people will be out there.
The other is how YOU value the people you work with. And it seems like you may have gotten yourself entrenched in a competitive mindset. Which is really not your fault. You've been forced into it through some truly shitty experiences. But in my experience, when you have that sort of survival-oriented, competitive mindset in the workplace, other people who operate that way, many of whom are bullies, will sniff it out and want to be competitive with you. And if you don't actually thrive on that kind of competitiveness, you're not going to do well.
I used to have some of that competitiveness in the workplace, and while I think some of it is healthy, working it out of my system helped me function a lot better. For me, the thing that really helped was learning to focus not on personalities (either mine or my coworkers) but on the work that needs to get done AND on building collaborative relationships. Both of those things can be hard to do when you're in the mindset that people are out to get you, so maybe start out by focusing on building relationships with people you do like and respect around projects you enjoy working on.
posted by lunasol at 3:17 PM on March 8, 2021 [14 favorites]
One thing that does sort of leap out at me from your post is that there seems to be some black and white thinking going on - you can either be really arrogant and pushy OR super meek and self-effacing. I wonder if you were ever taught (by parents, teachers, coaches, whatever) HOW to share knowledge and show intelligence in a way that wasn't arrogant (or called arrogant by authorities and/or peers)?
Another thing I've been thinking about lately is how much of a difference it makes to work with people who value you, and who you in turn value. This factor really plays so much of a role in determining someone's career. And I think there are two aspects to this. One, is finding places to work where you are valued. This is easier said than done, but I do think it's fair to make that a key aspect when you are vetting potential jobs, or deciding whether or not to stay in a particular job. Try as much as you can to work with people who do value what you have to offer, and when you find them, stick with them. It sounds like you are very talented and you know your shit. Those people will be out there.
The other is how YOU value the people you work with. And it seems like you may have gotten yourself entrenched in a competitive mindset. Which is really not your fault. You've been forced into it through some truly shitty experiences. But in my experience, when you have that sort of survival-oriented, competitive mindset in the workplace, other people who operate that way, many of whom are bullies, will sniff it out and want to be competitive with you. And if you don't actually thrive on that kind of competitiveness, you're not going to do well.
I used to have some of that competitiveness in the workplace, and while I think some of it is healthy, working it out of my system helped me function a lot better. For me, the thing that really helped was learning to focus not on personalities (either mine or my coworkers) but on the work that needs to get done AND on building collaborative relationships. Both of those things can be hard to do when you're in the mindset that people are out to get you, so maybe start out by focusing on building relationships with people you do like and respect around projects you enjoy working on.
posted by lunasol at 3:17 PM on March 8, 2021 [14 favorites]
I'm also going to suggest maybe autism? For no particularly good reason than that I discovered I'm autistic at age 45 and I relate to some (but not all) of the things you describe in your question. It is highly unlikely that your therapist would notice this or be able to offer you any advice (other than spend $$$$ for a formal diagnosis from a psychiatrist, who may fail to diagnose you anyway because you are not a 4-year-old white boy).
Here is a place to start: Samantha Craft’s (unofficial) Autistic Traits Checklist. If this resonates, the next thing to do is start reading blogs and whatnot by adult autistic women, and maybe try to plug in to the autistic community.
I work in academia. I think that academia is a good place for autistic people because a lot of us are autistic, but it can also be tough. There is experimental evidence that neurotypical people treat autistic people like shit for no reason other than that they get a bad vibe upon first meeting them. Self-knowledge is power. [Sorry about the low eloquence level, I am mostly out of words for today.]
posted by heatherlogan at 3:20 PM on March 8, 2021 [15 favorites]
Here is a place to start: Samantha Craft’s (unofficial) Autistic Traits Checklist. If this resonates, the next thing to do is start reading blogs and whatnot by adult autistic women, and maybe try to plug in to the autistic community.
I work in academia. I think that academia is a good place for autistic people because a lot of us are autistic, but it can also be tough. There is experimental evidence that neurotypical people treat autistic people like shit for no reason other than that they get a bad vibe upon first meeting them. Self-knowledge is power. [Sorry about the low eloquence level, I am mostly out of words for today.]
posted by heatherlogan at 3:20 PM on March 8, 2021 [15 favorites]
Fuck all these people you wrote about. I don’t know you but I already can tell from these paragraphs you are smart and also have the self-awareness to not be an annoying smart person. And unfortunately, I think you’ve gotten to the heart of the matter - gender and social strata and physical traits all are tied so much to people’s perception of intelligence.
Are there people in your life who can help boost you up, affirm that you’re smart and wonderful and deserving and worthy? If not, or even if you do, can you become a cheerleader for yourself? Can you look back at all the times in your life where you’ve been thought to be less smart than others, and tell your younger self that yes, you were smart, and they were wrong? Because they were so very wrong to not see your worth. Sometimes that helps me reframe my past and helps me move on. Can you start a journal where every day you write about how you’re smart and the great things you’ve done, and repeat them over and over, like a mantra? Really let it settle in. It’s a long long process, full of baby steps, but I think it does help. Sometimes I would even look myself in the mirror and tell myself things like “you’re smart and you’re capable and you are doing the best you can and you are a good person.” Rinse and repeat, over and over. You’re going to have to be a warrior every day, fighting against the perceptions all the time. It’s hard and I am so sorry. I also know you can do it. You are smart and you are self-aware and you can do it.
posted by umwhat at 3:21 PM on March 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
Are there people in your life who can help boost you up, affirm that you’re smart and wonderful and deserving and worthy? If not, or even if you do, can you become a cheerleader for yourself? Can you look back at all the times in your life where you’ve been thought to be less smart than others, and tell your younger self that yes, you were smart, and they were wrong? Because they were so very wrong to not see your worth. Sometimes that helps me reframe my past and helps me move on. Can you start a journal where every day you write about how you’re smart and the great things you’ve done, and repeat them over and over, like a mantra? Really let it settle in. It’s a long long process, full of baby steps, but I think it does help. Sometimes I would even look myself in the mirror and tell myself things like “you’re smart and you’re capable and you are doing the best you can and you are a good person.” Rinse and repeat, over and over. You’re going to have to be a warrior every day, fighting against the perceptions all the time. It’s hard and I am so sorry. I also know you can do it. You are smart and you are self-aware and you can do it.
posted by umwhat at 3:21 PM on March 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
I am so sorry this is happening to you. I consider myself a "smart cookie" and I don't think it's all arrogance, and I've had a little bit of pushback along the same lines as you but it hasn't been anywhere near as bad (at least, to my face?).
From my perspective, it sounds like maybe your field of work is pretty damn toxic. Or maybe even the place you live in. Is getting-the-hell-out an option?
Secondly, I've just learned to... Context switch. Amongst most people I don't choose the complex words, I don't offer criticism unless it's literally my job, and when I do I soft peddle. Yes, it's annoying. No, most places I work haven't really valued me. But I have lots of other outlets, smart friends I can vent to and have complex discussions with, and hobbies that consume my brain when it's ticking around. Basically I don't get my sense of self worth from the opinions of the vast majority of people, or my job, just the select few who *get me* and the satisfaction of my own personal projects. I know that can be very hard to find, and we're taught to get our self-worth externally, but that's a trap.
So tldr: I'm a santisied version of myself in public, and that's ok because smart isn't all I have to offer (and I'm sure that's the case for you too!) Also the people you've worked with are assholes. I tend to reassure myself that their constant need for attention and approval and comparison to others is ultimately a thief of joy; what they are chasing will never make them truly happy.
You are smart. You seem great. Fuck those insecure people who are trying to tell you otherwise.
posted by stillnocturnal at 3:24 PM on March 8, 2021 [16 favorites]
From my perspective, it sounds like maybe your field of work is pretty damn toxic. Or maybe even the place you live in. Is getting-the-hell-out an option?
Secondly, I've just learned to... Context switch. Amongst most people I don't choose the complex words, I don't offer criticism unless it's literally my job, and when I do I soft peddle. Yes, it's annoying. No, most places I work haven't really valued me. But I have lots of other outlets, smart friends I can vent to and have complex discussions with, and hobbies that consume my brain when it's ticking around. Basically I don't get my sense of self worth from the opinions of the vast majority of people, or my job, just the select few who *get me* and the satisfaction of my own personal projects. I know that can be very hard to find, and we're taught to get our self-worth externally, but that's a trap.
So tldr: I'm a santisied version of myself in public, and that's ok because smart isn't all I have to offer (and I'm sure that's the case for you too!) Also the people you've worked with are assholes. I tend to reassure myself that their constant need for attention and approval and comparison to others is ultimately a thief of joy; what they are chasing will never make them truly happy.
You are smart. You seem great. Fuck those insecure people who are trying to tell you otherwise.
posted by stillnocturnal at 3:24 PM on March 8, 2021 [16 favorites]
I don’t know if this would work, I’m just throwing it out there, but: Apologise for yourself less. Stop making yourself smaller. Stop being so modest.
I wonder if your colleagues are clocking your initial modesty and humility, subconsciously slotting you into some kind of social pecking order in their minds, and then experiencing huge cognitive dissonance when they discover you’re not who they thought you were, and this makes them writhe and lash out. March into your next job being unapologetically smart and capable and let everyone know from the start who they’re dealing with.
Of course, how you suddenly learn to behave that way and act as unashamedly awesome as you are 24/7 so nobody is surprised, is the big question! Maybe one you can work on with your therapist?
Is a lack of confidence leading you to take jobs that are under your true ability level? (I ask that because you describe your job as if your peers are less qualified than you). In that case, start applying for jobs that match your true ability and qualifications and where you won’t feel like you have to start out by minimising yourself in order to fit in with the team.
On a specific note, if your boss wants you to write guides for the rest of the team, send them to the boss and have him/her send them out. I’ve worked on a team where a very junior member happened to have a good handle on one specific skill and was asked by the bosses to email us all directly telling us how to do it. Suffice to say it went down so badly as a sign of her arrogance that it was emailed all over the building in seconds with a “OMG have you seen this, who does she think she is?!” intro. That shouldn’t be the case for you if you’re not younger or more junior than the rest of the team, but it’s still rough to receive unsolicited professional advice from your peers - have your boss send it out if they’re amenable to doing that.
Alternatively, you’re quite possibly just facing straight up misogyny, classism, anti-fat and pro-archetypal prettiness prejudice and those things are structural, deeply cultural, and entirely not your fault.
posted by penguin pie at 3:26 PM on March 8, 2021 [26 favorites]
I wonder if your colleagues are clocking your initial modesty and humility, subconsciously slotting you into some kind of social pecking order in their minds, and then experiencing huge cognitive dissonance when they discover you’re not who they thought you were, and this makes them writhe and lash out. March into your next job being unapologetically smart and capable and let everyone know from the start who they’re dealing with.
Of course, how you suddenly learn to behave that way and act as unashamedly awesome as you are 24/7 so nobody is surprised, is the big question! Maybe one you can work on with your therapist?
Is a lack of confidence leading you to take jobs that are under your true ability level? (I ask that because you describe your job as if your peers are less qualified than you). In that case, start applying for jobs that match your true ability and qualifications and where you won’t feel like you have to start out by minimising yourself in order to fit in with the team.
On a specific note, if your boss wants you to write guides for the rest of the team, send them to the boss and have him/her send them out. I’ve worked on a team where a very junior member happened to have a good handle on one specific skill and was asked by the bosses to email us all directly telling us how to do it. Suffice to say it went down so badly as a sign of her arrogance that it was emailed all over the building in seconds with a “OMG have you seen this, who does she think she is?!” intro. That shouldn’t be the case for you if you’re not younger or more junior than the rest of the team, but it’s still rough to receive unsolicited professional advice from your peers - have your boss send it out if they’re amenable to doing that.
Alternatively, you’re quite possibly just facing straight up misogyny, classism, anti-fat and pro-archetypal prettiness prejudice and those things are structural, deeply cultural, and entirely not your fault.
posted by penguin pie at 3:26 PM on March 8, 2021 [26 favorites]
I'm sorry you've been subjected to such unfair and biased treatment. It's impossible for any of us to know how you come off in "real life," but if you're already making a conscious effort to "quiet and small," I have my doubts that your personality is the bulk of the problem.
For perspective, I'm a smart, competent woman in the tech industry, but I haven't faced anywhere near as much discrimination and adversity as you have. Hopefully my perspective is still somewhat helpful and relevant:
How do you feel smart? Clearly, some people DO recognize your skills and your worth. The CEO at the contract position gave you increasingly more responsibility. Your current boss asks you to create training materials. You've gotten the good grades and the scholarships. Emphasize those positive experiences when evaluating yourself, and chalk the negatives up to jerks and misogynists. Cultivate friendships and hobbies that let you be smart and be yourself, so that you have those experiences to balance out the crap.
How do you deal with the negativity? Find like-minded friends and colleagues. Bitch to each other so you feel less alone. But also be aware that this can lead to a negativity spiral. My work best friend and I sometimes just have to cut our bitch-fests short because it's not helping either of us.
How do you find good places to work for? Look for places with good family leave policies, as they'll tend to be more inclusive to women. When you interview, are there women on the panel? Check out the employee photos on the website -- do they show diversity in ethnicity, gender/gender presentation, and body types? How diverse is the executive panel? Be absolutely yourself in interviews. If you go in with that meek and mild facade and they hire you, that's what they'll expect from you. If you go in as your intelligent, kick-ass self and that bothers them, then you don't want to work there anyway. And if they hire your intelligent, kick-ass self, then you know that's what they want from you.
Good luck!
posted by natabat at 3:26 PM on March 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
For perspective, I'm a smart, competent woman in the tech industry, but I haven't faced anywhere near as much discrimination and adversity as you have. Hopefully my perspective is still somewhat helpful and relevant:
How do you feel smart? Clearly, some people DO recognize your skills and your worth. The CEO at the contract position gave you increasingly more responsibility. Your current boss asks you to create training materials. You've gotten the good grades and the scholarships. Emphasize those positive experiences when evaluating yourself, and chalk the negatives up to jerks and misogynists. Cultivate friendships and hobbies that let you be smart and be yourself, so that you have those experiences to balance out the crap.
How do you deal with the negativity? Find like-minded friends and colleagues. Bitch to each other so you feel less alone. But also be aware that this can lead to a negativity spiral. My work best friend and I sometimes just have to cut our bitch-fests short because it's not helping either of us.
How do you find good places to work for? Look for places with good family leave policies, as they'll tend to be more inclusive to women. When you interview, are there women on the panel? Check out the employee photos on the website -- do they show diversity in ethnicity, gender/gender presentation, and body types? How diverse is the executive panel? Be absolutely yourself in interviews. If you go in with that meek and mild facade and they hire you, that's what they'll expect from you. If you go in as your intelligent, kick-ass self and that bothers them, then you don't want to work there anyway. And if they hire your intelligent, kick-ass self, then you know that's what they want from you.
Good luck!
posted by natabat at 3:26 PM on March 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
I use grown up words in emails, too. One time I used precis and some dickbag replied all and said "what the hell is a precis" and I replied saying "ha well good thing I emailed it and you have an entire internet right there to help you look it up!" with a link to the dictionary definition of precis.
I suppose it's different when you have a toxic boss who hates you, but for the most part if a person isn't paying you, you don't have to have a nice response to their rudeness.
So much of your narrative is ripped from my life, right down to my mom constantly telling me throughout my teenage years I wasn't good enough to get into college (I was valedictorian lol). For whatever reason, my coping strategy has pretty much always been "well fuck you, too."
I don't know what to tell you except that I wish I could give your self esteem a big ol boost. I don't think you sound arrogant at all, actually, and I think something that could help is to actually cultivate some arrogance. If you're good at something, embrace it. Own it. Project it wherever you go. There are SO many things I'm not good at in my life, I absolutely refuse to play down my capabilities in the places I know I'm strong.
posted by phunniemee at 3:38 PM on March 8, 2021 [23 favorites]
I suppose it's different when you have a toxic boss who hates you, but for the most part if a person isn't paying you, you don't have to have a nice response to their rudeness.
So much of your narrative is ripped from my life, right down to my mom constantly telling me throughout my teenage years I wasn't good enough to get into college (I was valedictorian lol). For whatever reason, my coping strategy has pretty much always been "well fuck you, too."
I don't know what to tell you except that I wish I could give your self esteem a big ol boost. I don't think you sound arrogant at all, actually, and I think something that could help is to actually cultivate some arrogance. If you're good at something, embrace it. Own it. Project it wherever you go. There are SO many things I'm not good at in my life, I absolutely refuse to play down my capabilities in the places I know I'm strong.
posted by phunniemee at 3:38 PM on March 8, 2021 [23 favorites]
Sorry if this unhelpful because I don't know how the market in your field is, but could it be that you're not at the right job? If I were at a place where using "apropos" was considered to be showing off, I would take it as a clear signal that it was not the right job for me. When you look for jobs, do you undersell yourself? Do you tend to take "safe" options rather than aiming a little bit higher than what you think you "deserve"?
posted by redlines at 4:04 PM on March 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by redlines at 4:04 PM on March 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
Lots of great insight and advice on isms. More on the navigating it side:
- sounds like your role hasn’t been clearly defined in some of these jobs. You’re also doing admin in one job, being asked to “teach” people who think they know what they’re doing when you don’t have formal seniority (which of course will get people’s backs up, if they feel it’s unjust, which they might if they’re looking at job titles and not merit [considering they’re likely biased to think their skills are solid]). So having an ambiguous role where you’re seen as overstepping your role is a problem, because it challenges people’s sense of fairness and they may feel threatened.
So you need a role where duties are clearly defined and where you’re working at, not below, your level (agree with penguin pie!). So - build a killer portfolio and go for straight up design jobs. Fight for it. Meanwhile just go along to get along at your current job. (Or get a temp job or contract, as a designer.)
- soft skills could probably do with a brush-up. People don’t like feeling one-upped (see your old supervisor and your other coworker). Whenever you have to correct someone, try to do it in a way that makes people feel strong or doesn’t step on their toes. Otherwise they’ll feel threatened - unless they’re confident in their own role (eg doing work orthogonal to yours, not competing with you, so maybe you’d be working as the only designer on a team of people doing other things).
- self-presentation... you’re working against multiple biases for sure. Try to get some input on how to style yourself to showcase your best features while still feeling comfortable/yourself. It’s disgusting and unfair, but we do have to sell (or “brand”) ourselves all the time, more and more given the importance of social media. More so when beginning a new direction. Not talking about imitating anyone, but about finding a look that’s intentional and communicates the best things about you.
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:11 PM on March 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
- sounds like your role hasn’t been clearly defined in some of these jobs. You’re also doing admin in one job, being asked to “teach” people who think they know what they’re doing when you don’t have formal seniority (which of course will get people’s backs up, if they feel it’s unjust, which they might if they’re looking at job titles and not merit [considering they’re likely biased to think their skills are solid]). So having an ambiguous role where you’re seen as overstepping your role is a problem, because it challenges people’s sense of fairness and they may feel threatened.
So you need a role where duties are clearly defined and where you’re working at, not below, your level (agree with penguin pie!). So - build a killer portfolio and go for straight up design jobs. Fight for it. Meanwhile just go along to get along at your current job. (Or get a temp job or contract, as a designer.)
- soft skills could probably do with a brush-up. People don’t like feeling one-upped (see your old supervisor and your other coworker). Whenever you have to correct someone, try to do it in a way that makes people feel strong or doesn’t step on their toes. Otherwise they’ll feel threatened - unless they’re confident in their own role (eg doing work orthogonal to yours, not competing with you, so maybe you’d be working as the only designer on a team of people doing other things).
- self-presentation... you’re working against multiple biases for sure. Try to get some input on how to style yourself to showcase your best features while still feeling comfortable/yourself. It’s disgusting and unfair, but we do have to sell (or “brand”) ourselves all the time, more and more given the importance of social media. More so when beginning a new direction. Not talking about imitating anyone, but about finding a look that’s intentional and communicates the best things about you.
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:11 PM on March 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
There's not one piece of the good advice above that's going to help you where you are. Those assholes have already pigeonholed you, and you could turn yourself inside out and it won't make a lick of difference to their perceptions of you. Go kick ass somewhere else.
posted by kate4914 at 4:16 PM on March 8, 2021 [27 favorites]
posted by kate4914 at 4:16 PM on March 8, 2021 [27 favorites]
Sounds like you might really benefit from starting your own business. Work with clients who appreciate your acumen, and once you get successful enough, hire reports who respect your expertise.
posted by Sublimity at 4:38 PM on March 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Sublimity at 4:38 PM on March 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
You've struck a chord. Like others in this thread, I've experienced some of what you describe. It is so hard when any confidence on your part is read as unjustified arrogance because of who you are, but when you (as you say) you make efforts to efface yourself, that does you no favours in the work world either.
I'd love to see someone in this thread explain how to draw a livable line between these things. Making oneself more humble at work really doesn't do it. I've tried that, and was blamed for things and got fired.
posted by zadcat at 4:49 PM on March 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'd love to see someone in this thread explain how to draw a livable line between these things. Making oneself more humble at work really doesn't do it. I've tried that, and was blamed for things and got fired.
posted by zadcat at 4:49 PM on March 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
You've worked with some shitty people and they've left a mark. Others have offered personal stuff you could try. I'm going to recommend taking a serious look at your career path and doing some thinking about red flags you missed when taking shitty jobs.
For example, one if my worst jobs involved the ENTIRE team interviewing me at once. In another, the lady interviewing me said "I like hiring new moms, they work cheap." I didn't listen to my gut (and I was desperate) and they both became disasters. Maybe you need to focus your search not just on better jobs but better workplaces.
I recommend reading the Ask a Manager blog. It's basically a job-drama advice column.
posted by emjaybee at 5:06 PM on March 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
For example, one if my worst jobs involved the ENTIRE team interviewing me at once. In another, the lady interviewing me said "I like hiring new moms, they work cheap." I didn't listen to my gut (and I was desperate) and they both became disasters. Maybe you need to focus your search not just on better jobs but better workplaces.
I recommend reading the Ask a Manager blog. It's basically a job-drama advice column.
posted by emjaybee at 5:06 PM on March 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
I was going to say part of what cotton dress sock mentioned about role definition. Some of what you're facing is possibly because you're lacking formal authority yet are being asked to upskill people who are nominally your peers. The truth is that it's often a legitimately awkward situation for everyone involved - yes, you may have stronger skills, but your peers' skills were sufficiently strong to get the job done up until now. It's a dynamic that can set someone in your position up for failure unless their manager can take a hands-on role in massaging the change management aspect. Your manager is inherently not a good manager if they've taken stock of the team dynamic yet expect you to be effective.
People who don't move into formal managerial/leadership roles for whatever reason risk running into these issues more often than those who do. So yeah, intelligent women who feel like they've hit a career ceiling as individual contributors due to bias can find themselves in this sort of role more often, which eats away at their confidence. The less confidence you have, the less likely you are to go for positions where you're far less likely to be perceived as overstepping. The other problem is that you lean on your problem solving capabilities, which might lead you towards positions where you can can be an improver...which is potentially dangerous if it's at odds with how a role is defined in an organization.
None of this is meant to be victim blaming! I understand where you're at and have experienced similar things, and I'll be the first to admit that bias is a major component of how things are playing out for you. It was for me, yet there were a few things I did with my approach to my career that helped regardless:
(1) Taking jobs where I could be happy excelling within the scope of the job. For me, this problem mostly went away when I wasn't underemployed relative to my skills/experience. Don't underestimate the amount of friction that can come from role creep, even in environments that aren't toxic.
(2) Working on teams whose level of sophistication I could aspire to. The way you build relationships at work changes when you're not the only one setting the curve and when you stand to gain from others' strong performance.
(3) Recognizing that the difference between collaboration and what appears to be competition is...rapport. Again, this is an area where bias might always get in the way for you, even if you improve your soft skills. Even so, it's still important not to leave the contribution of your soft skills unexamined because of isms.
posted by blerghamot at 5:31 PM on March 8, 2021 [7 favorites]
People who don't move into formal managerial/leadership roles for whatever reason risk running into these issues more often than those who do. So yeah, intelligent women who feel like they've hit a career ceiling as individual contributors due to bias can find themselves in this sort of role more often, which eats away at their confidence. The less confidence you have, the less likely you are to go for positions where you're far less likely to be perceived as overstepping. The other problem is that you lean on your problem solving capabilities, which might lead you towards positions where you can can be an improver...which is potentially dangerous if it's at odds with how a role is defined in an organization.
None of this is meant to be victim blaming! I understand where you're at and have experienced similar things, and I'll be the first to admit that bias is a major component of how things are playing out for you. It was for me, yet there were a few things I did with my approach to my career that helped regardless:
(1) Taking jobs where I could be happy excelling within the scope of the job. For me, this problem mostly went away when I wasn't underemployed relative to my skills/experience. Don't underestimate the amount of friction that can come from role creep, even in environments that aren't toxic.
(2) Working on teams whose level of sophistication I could aspire to. The way you build relationships at work changes when you're not the only one setting the curve and when you stand to gain from others' strong performance.
(3) Recognizing that the difference between collaboration and what appears to be competition is...rapport. Again, this is an area where bias might always get in the way for you, even if you improve your soft skills. Even so, it's still important not to leave the contribution of your soft skills unexamined because of isms.
posted by blerghamot at 5:31 PM on March 8, 2021 [7 favorites]
Here are some things that have helped me:
Surrounding myself—in my personal network for sure, and in my professional network to whatever extent possible—with people who see, like, and accept me for who and what I am, including being good at my work and not particularly humble about that fact. Much of the time these are people who are in a similar situation.
Going freelance. Not an option for everyone, especially in the US. But now I rarely hear about the opportunities I don't get because I'm female, or someone doesn't like my attitude, or whatever. The people who do hire me want my work to be top-notch. They're not threatened by it, because I don't work there. If they take credit for it, whatever, as long as I get paid. I'd thought one day I'd be the boss at a company, and now instead I have more flexibility and control over my whole life. It's the company's loss and my gain, really.
Accepting that I'm angry that I would be further along in my career if I were male. It's worth being angry about.
Making a conscious choice to separate intelligence from virtue, and appreciating others' good qualities that have nothing to do with their intelligence. I think this can be done without devaluing your own intelligence or setting aside valuing intelligence in others when it's relevant. It's just not always relevant.
Having my eyes wide open to the trade-off I'm making. I choose not to participate in certain expectations of my gender—including but not limited to looking a certain way and shrinking away from my own strengths to make men more comfortable. There are consequences to that choice that shouldn't be, but given that they are, are still preferable to the alternative.
This may be off-base because I don't know what field you're in, your experience level, or your ambitions; and I'm not sure if when you say "poor," you mean "from a poor background" or "lacking money right now," but: if you are as capable as you sound, you should be paid accordingly. Maybe you should think about going for some higher-level gigs.
posted by lampoil at 6:14 PM on March 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
Surrounding myself—in my personal network for sure, and in my professional network to whatever extent possible—with people who see, like, and accept me for who and what I am, including being good at my work and not particularly humble about that fact. Much of the time these are people who are in a similar situation.
Going freelance. Not an option for everyone, especially in the US. But now I rarely hear about the opportunities I don't get because I'm female, or someone doesn't like my attitude, or whatever. The people who do hire me want my work to be top-notch. They're not threatened by it, because I don't work there. If they take credit for it, whatever, as long as I get paid. I'd thought one day I'd be the boss at a company, and now instead I have more flexibility and control over my whole life. It's the company's loss and my gain, really.
Accepting that I'm angry that I would be further along in my career if I were male. It's worth being angry about.
Making a conscious choice to separate intelligence from virtue, and appreciating others' good qualities that have nothing to do with their intelligence. I think this can be done without devaluing your own intelligence or setting aside valuing intelligence in others when it's relevant. It's just not always relevant.
Having my eyes wide open to the trade-off I'm making. I choose not to participate in certain expectations of my gender—including but not limited to looking a certain way and shrinking away from my own strengths to make men more comfortable. There are consequences to that choice that shouldn't be, but given that they are, are still preferable to the alternative.
This may be off-base because I don't know what field you're in, your experience level, or your ambitions; and I'm not sure if when you say "poor," you mean "from a poor background" or "lacking money right now," but: if you are as capable as you sound, you should be paid accordingly. Maybe you should think about going for some higher-level gigs.
posted by lampoil at 6:14 PM on March 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
Peeps populating the Green, the OP wrote "(Note: I am not interested in advice on how I should have handled these situations)" before giving examples of the mistreatment for context, and also tagged this question
feminism
intelligence
sexism
academia
The closing paragraph asks for a way forward: How do you do it? How do you get people to see you and recognize your strengths, especially when you don't look like society's idea of a smart, capable person? How do you find work that isn't horribly boring and constraining and organizations to work for that aren't filled with people trying to push your under? How do you swallow the constant indignities? The misogyny? The prejudice (I know some of you face bigger barriers than I do)? How do you feel smart inside? I've been saying I'm intelligent throughout this question, and the evidence is there in my life, but I don't feel it and I'm not confident about it (wonder why...).
For the "How do you find work that isn't..." part of your Ask, I really liked the "go into business for yourself" advice upthread. I was all set to second it, adding "maybe your future enterprise is in partnership with gifted salespeople, to manage the glad-handing side of business, so you can just get on with doing brilliant work yet escape punishment," but if you're in academia I don't know how that experience translates to small business owner.
For your How do you feel smart inside? question: Colleagues have stolen my work, too, and in a weird way it did push me to 'feel smart inside' a bit? As in, their actions spoke louder than any meant-to-diminish-me words aimed my way. Anyway, it also pushed me into better documenting my usual assignments, bcc'ing a personal address (not an option in every workplace, unfortunately) on email exchanges (which often began, Iris, when you get the chance, could you throw together ___, but never mentioned "so I can take sole credit for ___ later this month") that resulted in unusual assignments, and also 'signing' all projects after turning them in. Footers, 'watermarks', heck, sometimes just sticking my initials somewhere toward the tail end of a title worked in my favor: would-be thieves would push the entire thing up the chain without troubling themselves to re-name or re-format the file, or slides I created would pop up in the big presentation with my signifier, or whatever.
I am a team player, is the hell of it. As I got older, it became easier to navigate my often self-kneecapping notions around stuff like: what it means to be a good, decent person; what is appropriate compensation, asking for a higher salary, and how to proceed if the request is denied; helpfulness and generosity in the professional world in general; making my boss/bosses look great; credit-claiming as a dame and all internal and external noise around that; all manner of boundary issues - defining, maintaining, recognizing; and similar.
Very much related to the above, getting savvier about job creep (as in, creeps assigned jobs in addition to the one I was hired to do, sans raised salary, improved job title, or anything of benefit to me -- the company just got the terrific bargain of two or three more workers, gratis) also made me feel smarter. Being exploited less often can do that to a person.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:53 PM on March 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
feminism
intelligence
sexism
academia
The closing paragraph asks for a way forward: How do you do it? How do you get people to see you and recognize your strengths, especially when you don't look like society's idea of a smart, capable person? How do you find work that isn't horribly boring and constraining and organizations to work for that aren't filled with people trying to push your under? How do you swallow the constant indignities? The misogyny? The prejudice (I know some of you face bigger barriers than I do)? How do you feel smart inside? I've been saying I'm intelligent throughout this question, and the evidence is there in my life, but I don't feel it and I'm not confident about it (wonder why...).
For the "How do you find work that isn't..." part of your Ask, I really liked the "go into business for yourself" advice upthread. I was all set to second it, adding "maybe your future enterprise is in partnership with gifted salespeople, to manage the glad-handing side of business, so you can just get on with doing brilliant work yet escape punishment," but if you're in academia I don't know how that experience translates to small business owner.
For your How do you feel smart inside? question: Colleagues have stolen my work, too, and in a weird way it did push me to 'feel smart inside' a bit? As in, their actions spoke louder than any meant-to-diminish-me words aimed my way. Anyway, it also pushed me into better documenting my usual assignments, bcc'ing a personal address (not an option in every workplace, unfortunately) on email exchanges (which often began, Iris, when you get the chance, could you throw together ___, but never mentioned "so I can take sole credit for ___ later this month") that resulted in unusual assignments, and also 'signing' all projects after turning them in. Footers, 'watermarks', heck, sometimes just sticking my initials somewhere toward the tail end of a title worked in my favor: would-be thieves would push the entire thing up the chain without troubling themselves to re-name or re-format the file, or slides I created would pop up in the big presentation with my signifier, or whatever.
I am a team player, is the hell of it. As I got older, it became easier to navigate my often self-kneecapping notions around stuff like: what it means to be a good, decent person; what is appropriate compensation, asking for a higher salary, and how to proceed if the request is denied; helpfulness and generosity in the professional world in general; making my boss/bosses look great; credit-claiming as a dame and all internal and external noise around that; all manner of boundary issues - defining, maintaining, recognizing; and similar.
Very much related to the above, getting savvier about job creep (as in, creeps assigned jobs in addition to the one I was hired to do, sans raised salary, improved job title, or anything of benefit to me -- the company just got the terrific bargain of two or three more workers, gratis) also made me feel smarter. Being exploited less often can do that to a person.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:53 PM on March 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
Hi. You sound like one of my childhood best friends. She is really bright, curvy (though pretty conventionally attractive by many aesthetic standards), and sometimes struggled with these concepts (she is now a boudoir photographer for curvy, body positive women, working as an indie contractor).
Let’s begin, a little bit.
So, you introduced the subject in a context that devalues the writer. Please stop doing this. Forever!
You didn’t happen to avoid denigrating yourself this time. The context makes it sound as though you’ve potentially slipped into a loop, where you present materials or work with a self-depreciating overtone. It helps to be aware of this, especially if you’re attempting to make a shift into a more constructive state, especially if you're interested in delivering materials confidently.
The context provided (above) offers qualities of an articulate, thoughtful, creative hard worker. Surely you are all of these things.
However: Intelligence belongs to everyone. When we stop viewing intellect as a property, shield, or badge, we realize most people are intelligent, the feature expresses itself in different methods (consciousness is a natural force, after all).
Sometimes these levels of expression are not immediately available to those who have had to initially organize messy home lives, class, or racial dispositions, etc. The context presented makes it sound as though you may have began to inwardly (or outwardly) use intelligence as a shield. “If I am intelligent enough to figure out this situation, or problem, I can stop these things from happening.” Which is sometimes true, sometimes not: Regardless, human beings are sensitive animals, and these inward feelings, even if not outwardly expressed, will tip others off to your vulnerabilities, whether they outwardly realize it, or internalize their understanding, then act through the internalized criteria. Additionally, if you stop pouring so much focus into this attribute, you may find you are less paranoid or self-depreciating about the quality, so you can begin to appreciate it as it exists, again. The natural expression is often the most confident or unfettered one.
If you know you’re intelligent/perceptive, sometimes one of the best ways to express this feature is just through action/work, alone (without conversation, even subtle). Not everyone will catch it at first, but those sensitive to your perspective and position will. Eventually, when your work is strong enough and you can speak through work alone, hopefully you just won’t have to do anything else. People will be able to take one look at your portfolio, and think, “Oh, shit. She wasn’t exaggerating. She really is smart/talented/capable. .. shit, shit, shit!.” And then maybe respect you, and/or hopefully go away. You already know this, this is the best example of this:
“My uncle happened to work and share an office with my advisor's daughter, and when he told her that I was applying to a competitive work-study program she said, paraphrased, "don't get your hopes up. I know your niece and she's way too old and doesn't have what it takes. They only accept the best." I had been getting similar messaging from her mother all year. (I did get into the work-study program and won a scholarship to cover the costs. I also had the highest GPA in my department's graduating class so I was clearly not lazy or a bad student.)“
Rather than “being smart,” possibly try to re-frame perspective and pursue being patient/diligent. You know you’re smart, even when in doubt. It takes a deep level of patience to convey complex experiences over time, especially if they don’t arrive with a conventionally attractive wrapper. It is possible to be above this.
Being able to present practical, concrete examples of your history and work is also huge: It's what's going to save you.
Not to re-frame your ‘apropos’ situation or answer ways to handle past situations better, but, for future situations:
When tapping into social situations, conveying understanding or intelligence is not necessarily how complex your level of understanding is at face value: often, it's how quickly you can relay a very complex topic in very simple terms.
A helpful analogy may be to consider a sometimes true stereotype for engineers (for this moment!): Engineers are notorious for bad handwriting and poor spelling. They are incredibly articulate in other practical ways. Rather than introduce a literary value (e.g. apropos) they may not immediately comprehend, when they need to do quick work, just offer a simpler form of that value or word: They’ll thank you for your quickness and humility, and they won’t resent you for not delving into full expression. They’ll appreciate you having saved their time and frustration. End lesson: Remember/know your audience. (side: Why is this stereotype sometimes true? Engineers are people dedicating time to a skill immersed in the mechanical understanding of complex machines and processes. They don't have time for spelling. They need people to work with their specialized knowledge: Which is what very much knowledge or "higher education" in the USA is. Rarely do we have polymaths, we have very many people with narrow areas of knowledge who need others to bring them up.)
For your direct questions: In the broad spectrum of life (again, I feel bad suggesting, because I know what you’re experiencing is complex and heartbreaking): Consider playing the long game, resolving to acquire/find the ideal occupational role/project offer/partner/whatever, at a more mature age (maybe when you’ve moved, or these people have moved on, or people have taken the time to process and realize the situation (and you) with clarity- or, you’ve developed enough strong personal work for people to just fuck off, already). It may involve a lot of FOMO, but if you can balance it with personal work and esteem, it may not matter, later.
Arrogance and mean-spiritedness can be broken into other terms, and thereafter, qualities. “I am not arrogant: I am confident and absolutely capable. I am not mean-spirited, but I can be present a wall, or perhaps even be cutting when pressed, or necessary.” This is a careful line, but it’s there if you create it.
Theft of work - Do you have separate bodies of work, completely within your control(intellectually/legally), on display? With timestamps or process work? If so, displaying these items may give a nudge to people advocating for you, who know you’re capable and talented. A separate or personal collection confirms you’re not under-skilled. Obviously it requires time and care to create, collect, circulate, then display.
As far as missing out on high visibility or the fun/interesting stuff, that’s sometimes the worst. Hopefully there are people in your environment who see you, who can slowly push these opportunities back toward you, when you’re ready, or they’re right for your work.
When dealing with envy/jealousy, one of my favorite referrals is here.
More.
This one can be very frustrating, but you should find middle grounds to “give the victory,” or create peace, without completely compromising yourself, your work, your project, etc. In direct terms of jealousy or envy, role switching sometimes helps. Sometimes building the person up alongside you (and taking the ego hit, especially with younger collaborators) can create a completely different atmosphere, and sometimes it takes surprisingly little effort. Sometimes you can reframe the person’s perspective by suggesting you’re so envious of their capabilities (in a very subtle, non-patronizing, sincere way), and they may consciously or subconsciously click with your perspective, and actually just start to focus on their work. Usually people who find themselves with compulsive areas of envy have been deeply wounded in some way, or don’t even realize they’re doing what they’re doing. It can be super mechanical, and difficult to work with this way. So.. patience.
“How do you do it? How do you get people to see you and recognize your strengths, especially when you don't look like society's idea of a smart, capable person? How do you find work that isn't horribly boring and constraining and organizations to work for that aren't filled with people trying to push your under? How do you swallow the constant indignities? The misogyny? The prejudice (I know some of you face bigger barriers than I do)? How do you feel smart inside?”
Well, first, remember society and culture is not static, therefore, it is always changing. This is very nice news. Hopefully new perspectives for women are on the way (we will start with black women, first, of course).
It may help to condense the two terms: capability requires intelligence, so, case-in-point, you have a twofer, there: Which still supports the idea you should perhaps just really dive into your work, and hopefully the qualities will truly shine through the nonsense you face, and speak for themselves.
For the later questions,
“How do you find work that isn’t horribly boring..” You find it the way it is often brought into reality: by creating it, yourself. This is the best, as it often invites work of it’s own nature, or attracts it’s own counterparts. It will most likely lead you to what you ultimately wish to do.
For the rest.. intelligence is a beautiful quality, and you get it, but shift focus a little bit. Invest in patience, and hard work. They’re not the most exciting answers, but they are the money answers, and they are practical. Also, invest in yourself. At some point, you need to look in the mirror and say, “This has been a total crock, and I am above absolutely all of this.” Whether liked or not, unfortunately these poor qualities (misogyny, body discrimination, for others, racism) will continue to exist alongside the better qualities we bring into the world, but, sometimes it helps to ask what the world would look like, without what you’ve brought into it. Would you rather it disappear? No? Then please keep working.
For people compelled to push you under or take from you (whether it be your concepts, personal practices, even personal property or whatever extreme your facing from whatever insane action that day), try to find something to give them and protect yourself by giving to yourself (another Buddhist concept is, "not stealing from yourself," within the same site, listed above). This level of compulsion often represents the idea the person has been taken from in some way, or, they just have an imbalance. Find some middle ground to offer, then hopefully you’ll find they’ll let you be.
If you are doing your best, it’s all you can do.
In the kind words of Laurie Anderson, after a certain point, sometimes you just have to, “let assholes be assholes.”
Assholery is a fascinating phenomenon. If someone is acting like an asshole, they’re usually very quickly found out. They may not have the self-knowledge, but others often know. Be thankful you are not them, today, or tomorrow.
Have hope, just be patient, and don’t stop working. We’re seeing a really beautiful unfolding of radical change, right now. There’s no reason other people can’t tack on body positivity in conjunction (they already are). Try to offer yourself*, your very best work. The tone in the context suggests you’ve felt you’ve been lacking recently, and as if you may not have given yourself what’s been needed. Thankfully, you are a creator/generator/source, so, you already have everything you need.
Other tones in your question suggest you may benefit from socializing, or just practicing more socialization. Some suggests an interest in more code-switching, or understand what it is others need from a social situation. Some of the cues you’ve dropped suggest you are very bright, and capable, but you may not have found the most direct route to communicate these features, particularly for some of your environments. This is not a fault, like you mentioned earlier, these things just take practice.
Last bit: When you’re feeling bummed, you can remember the inimitable beauty of the Venus of Willendorf (who is still talked about, today). One of my faves is also a distantly recent story involving a woman named Nancy Upton, spoofing AA. American Apparel (notorious for super small sizes and no longer within production) had been seeking a plus sized model.
Wrappin' up-
If you’re asking this question, you’re already on the route to solving it.
I’m sorry the world is a little dumb, sometimes. If we didn’t have the dumb, we would have no contrast for the smart.
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:56 PM on March 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Let’s begin, a little bit.
So, you introduced the subject in a context that devalues the writer. Please stop doing this. Forever!
You didn’t happen to avoid denigrating yourself this time. The context makes it sound as though you’ve potentially slipped into a loop, where you present materials or work with a self-depreciating overtone. It helps to be aware of this, especially if you’re attempting to make a shift into a more constructive state, especially if you're interested in delivering materials confidently.
The context provided (above) offers qualities of an articulate, thoughtful, creative hard worker. Surely you are all of these things.
However: Intelligence belongs to everyone. When we stop viewing intellect as a property, shield, or badge, we realize most people are intelligent, the feature expresses itself in different methods (consciousness is a natural force, after all).
Sometimes these levels of expression are not immediately available to those who have had to initially organize messy home lives, class, or racial dispositions, etc. The context presented makes it sound as though you may have began to inwardly (or outwardly) use intelligence as a shield. “If I am intelligent enough to figure out this situation, or problem, I can stop these things from happening.” Which is sometimes true, sometimes not: Regardless, human beings are sensitive animals, and these inward feelings, even if not outwardly expressed, will tip others off to your vulnerabilities, whether they outwardly realize it, or internalize their understanding, then act through the internalized criteria. Additionally, if you stop pouring so much focus into this attribute, you may find you are less paranoid or self-depreciating about the quality, so you can begin to appreciate it as it exists, again. The natural expression is often the most confident or unfettered one.
If you know you’re intelligent/perceptive, sometimes one of the best ways to express this feature is just through action/work, alone (without conversation, even subtle). Not everyone will catch it at first, but those sensitive to your perspective and position will. Eventually, when your work is strong enough and you can speak through work alone, hopefully you just won’t have to do anything else. People will be able to take one look at your portfolio, and think, “Oh, shit. She wasn’t exaggerating. She really is smart/talented/capable. .. shit, shit, shit!.” And then maybe respect you, and/or hopefully go away. You already know this, this is the best example of this:
“My uncle happened to work and share an office with my advisor's daughter, and when he told her that I was applying to a competitive work-study program she said, paraphrased, "don't get your hopes up. I know your niece and she's way too old and doesn't have what it takes. They only accept the best." I had been getting similar messaging from her mother all year. (I did get into the work-study program and won a scholarship to cover the costs. I also had the highest GPA in my department's graduating class so I was clearly not lazy or a bad student.)“
Rather than “being smart,” possibly try to re-frame perspective and pursue being patient/diligent. You know you’re smart, even when in doubt. It takes a deep level of patience to convey complex experiences over time, especially if they don’t arrive with a conventionally attractive wrapper. It is possible to be above this.
Being able to present practical, concrete examples of your history and work is also huge: It's what's going to save you.
Not to re-frame your ‘apropos’ situation or answer ways to handle past situations better, but, for future situations:
When tapping into social situations, conveying understanding or intelligence is not necessarily how complex your level of understanding is at face value: often, it's how quickly you can relay a very complex topic in very simple terms.
A helpful analogy may be to consider a sometimes true stereotype for engineers (for this moment!): Engineers are notorious for bad handwriting and poor spelling. They are incredibly articulate in other practical ways. Rather than introduce a literary value (e.g. apropos) they may not immediately comprehend, when they need to do quick work, just offer a simpler form of that value or word: They’ll thank you for your quickness and humility, and they won’t resent you for not delving into full expression. They’ll appreciate you having saved their time and frustration. End lesson: Remember/know your audience. (side: Why is this stereotype sometimes true? Engineers are people dedicating time to a skill immersed in the mechanical understanding of complex machines and processes. They don't have time for spelling. They need people to work with their specialized knowledge: Which is what very much knowledge or "higher education" in the USA is. Rarely do we have polymaths, we have very many people with narrow areas of knowledge who need others to bring them up.)
For your direct questions: In the broad spectrum of life (again, I feel bad suggesting, because I know what you’re experiencing is complex and heartbreaking): Consider playing the long game, resolving to acquire/find the ideal occupational role/project offer/partner/whatever, at a more mature age (maybe when you’ve moved, or these people have moved on, or people have taken the time to process and realize the situation (and you) with clarity- or, you’ve developed enough strong personal work for people to just fuck off, already). It may involve a lot of FOMO, but if you can balance it with personal work and esteem, it may not matter, later.
Arrogance and mean-spiritedness can be broken into other terms, and thereafter, qualities. “I am not arrogant: I am confident and absolutely capable. I am not mean-spirited, but I can be present a wall, or perhaps even be cutting when pressed, or necessary.” This is a careful line, but it’s there if you create it.
Theft of work - Do you have separate bodies of work, completely within your control(intellectually/legally), on display? With timestamps or process work? If so, displaying these items may give a nudge to people advocating for you, who know you’re capable and talented. A separate or personal collection confirms you’re not under-skilled. Obviously it requires time and care to create, collect, circulate, then display.
As far as missing out on high visibility or the fun/interesting stuff, that’s sometimes the worst. Hopefully there are people in your environment who see you, who can slowly push these opportunities back toward you, when you’re ready, or they’re right for your work.
When dealing with envy/jealousy, one of my favorite referrals is here.
More.
This one can be very frustrating, but you should find middle grounds to “give the victory,” or create peace, without completely compromising yourself, your work, your project, etc. In direct terms of jealousy or envy, role switching sometimes helps. Sometimes building the person up alongside you (and taking the ego hit, especially with younger collaborators) can create a completely different atmosphere, and sometimes it takes surprisingly little effort. Sometimes you can reframe the person’s perspective by suggesting you’re so envious of their capabilities (in a very subtle, non-patronizing, sincere way), and they may consciously or subconsciously click with your perspective, and actually just start to focus on their work. Usually people who find themselves with compulsive areas of envy have been deeply wounded in some way, or don’t even realize they’re doing what they’re doing. It can be super mechanical, and difficult to work with this way. So.. patience.
“How do you do it? How do you get people to see you and recognize your strengths, especially when you don't look like society's idea of a smart, capable person? How do you find work that isn't horribly boring and constraining and organizations to work for that aren't filled with people trying to push your under? How do you swallow the constant indignities? The misogyny? The prejudice (I know some of you face bigger barriers than I do)? How do you feel smart inside?”
Well, first, remember society and culture is not static, therefore, it is always changing. This is very nice news. Hopefully new perspectives for women are on the way (we will start with black women, first, of course).
It may help to condense the two terms: capability requires intelligence, so, case-in-point, you have a twofer, there: Which still supports the idea you should perhaps just really dive into your work, and hopefully the qualities will truly shine through the nonsense you face, and speak for themselves.
For the later questions,
“How do you find work that isn’t horribly boring..” You find it the way it is often brought into reality: by creating it, yourself. This is the best, as it often invites work of it’s own nature, or attracts it’s own counterparts. It will most likely lead you to what you ultimately wish to do.
For the rest.. intelligence is a beautiful quality, and you get it, but shift focus a little bit. Invest in patience, and hard work. They’re not the most exciting answers, but they are the money answers, and they are practical. Also, invest in yourself. At some point, you need to look in the mirror and say, “This has been a total crock, and I am above absolutely all of this.” Whether liked or not, unfortunately these poor qualities (misogyny, body discrimination, for others, racism) will continue to exist alongside the better qualities we bring into the world, but, sometimes it helps to ask what the world would look like, without what you’ve brought into it. Would you rather it disappear? No? Then please keep working.
For people compelled to push you under or take from you (whether it be your concepts, personal practices, even personal property or whatever extreme your facing from whatever insane action that day), try to find something to give them and protect yourself by giving to yourself (another Buddhist concept is, "not stealing from yourself," within the same site, listed above). This level of compulsion often represents the idea the person has been taken from in some way, or, they just have an imbalance. Find some middle ground to offer, then hopefully you’ll find they’ll let you be.
If you are doing your best, it’s all you can do.
In the kind words of Laurie Anderson, after a certain point, sometimes you just have to, “let assholes be assholes.”
Assholery is a fascinating phenomenon. If someone is acting like an asshole, they’re usually very quickly found out. They may not have the self-knowledge, but others often know. Be thankful you are not them, today, or tomorrow.
Have hope, just be patient, and don’t stop working. We’re seeing a really beautiful unfolding of radical change, right now. There’s no reason other people can’t tack on body positivity in conjunction (they already are). Try to offer yourself*, your very best work. The tone in the context suggests you’ve felt you’ve been lacking recently, and as if you may not have given yourself what’s been needed. Thankfully, you are a creator/generator/source, so, you already have everything you need.
Other tones in your question suggest you may benefit from socializing, or just practicing more socialization. Some suggests an interest in more code-switching, or understand what it is others need from a social situation. Some of the cues you’ve dropped suggest you are very bright, and capable, but you may not have found the most direct route to communicate these features, particularly for some of your environments. This is not a fault, like you mentioned earlier, these things just take practice.
Last bit: When you’re feeling bummed, you can remember the inimitable beauty of the Venus of Willendorf (who is still talked about, today). One of my faves is also a distantly recent story involving a woman named Nancy Upton, spoofing AA. American Apparel (notorious for super small sizes and no longer within production) had been seeking a plus sized model.
Wrappin' up-
If you’re asking this question, you’re already on the route to solving it.
I’m sorry the world is a little dumb, sometimes. If we didn’t have the dumb, we would have no contrast for the smart.
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:56 PM on March 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
I have no idea why anyone is assuming you're not in the U.S., because it certainly reads to me as if you are. In fact, SO MUCH of what you say, I could have written... I see you, and I get you.
I'm in my early 40s. I no longer believe that this nonsense will change in my lifetime, especially if one is female, overweight, low-income, and not conventionally attractive. (For bonus points, add in medical issues or invisible disabilities - even genetic ones - that WE get blamed for.) We get all of the negatives without anyone even attempting to change the status quo, and just as much negativity from our female co-workers as male... hell. I'd settle for people even superficially addressing it, but it's not going to happen.
My answer, really, my goal, is to be self-employed. I want to come out of this pandemic layoff never having to pander to a horrid boss or co-workers ever again. Will I manage full-self sufficiency by then? I don't know, but I'm trying.
As for the rest of it - well, I finally reached the point where I stopped attempting to help my idiot boss. Instead, I enjoyed watching him fail, because he was going to whether I attempted to help or not. One prime example last summer, he spent literally three weeks trying to get a particular computer to connect to the network. He finally called a tech to come in and fix it. Mucho $$. It happened to be a laptop that our cake decorator, who is a friend of mine, used. I looked at it and showed her what the problem was, right at the start of the saga... but hey, I'm a cook, not a computer repair tech. I'd never gotten thanks for any of the previous times I fixed stuff, and she had an alternative computer to use that she actually preferred, so [shrug], I didn't fix it. Petty, yes... but satisfying. And I'm a cook, so... not my circus.
Tech came in when the manager wasn't there. Confirmed with him that yes, that was the problem. Got a good laugh out of him with that one. (He'd been in earlier in the summer for problems with our entire network shutting down, even though there's a battery backup and etc. He told them to make sure they weren't accidentally unplugging it, because THAT was the problem. Last I knew, it was still happening.)
And hey - I don't normally do this, and I know you're anonymous here, but if you want someone to chat with, feel free to direct message me.
posted by stormyteal at 8:05 PM on March 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'm in my early 40s. I no longer believe that this nonsense will change in my lifetime, especially if one is female, overweight, low-income, and not conventionally attractive. (For bonus points, add in medical issues or invisible disabilities - even genetic ones - that WE get blamed for.) We get all of the negatives without anyone even attempting to change the status quo, and just as much negativity from our female co-workers as male... hell. I'd settle for people even superficially addressing it, but it's not going to happen.
My answer, really, my goal, is to be self-employed. I want to come out of this pandemic layoff never having to pander to a horrid boss or co-workers ever again. Will I manage full-self sufficiency by then? I don't know, but I'm trying.
As for the rest of it - well, I finally reached the point where I stopped attempting to help my idiot boss. Instead, I enjoyed watching him fail, because he was going to whether I attempted to help or not. One prime example last summer, he spent literally three weeks trying to get a particular computer to connect to the network. He finally called a tech to come in and fix it. Mucho $$. It happened to be a laptop that our cake decorator, who is a friend of mine, used. I looked at it and showed her what the problem was, right at the start of the saga... but hey, I'm a cook, not a computer repair tech. I'd never gotten thanks for any of the previous times I fixed stuff, and she had an alternative computer to use that she actually preferred, so [shrug], I didn't fix it. Petty, yes... but satisfying. And I'm a cook, so... not my circus.
Tech came in when the manager wasn't there. Confirmed with him that yes, that was the problem. Got a good laugh out of him with that one. (He'd been in earlier in the summer for problems with our entire network shutting down, even though there's a battery backup and etc. He told them to make sure they weren't accidentally unplugging it, because THAT was the problem. Last I knew, it was still happening.)
And hey - I don't normally do this, and I know you're anonymous here, but if you want someone to chat with, feel free to direct message me.
posted by stormyteal at 8:05 PM on March 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
There are places where people will appreciate you, sometimes hard to find - but they are out there. Good luck.
posted by Grok Lobster at 8:42 PM on March 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Grok Lobster at 8:42 PM on March 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
(It's not an assumption; OP is using non-U.S. spellings of words. I continue to think this is an area where U.S.-specific advice, while well-meant, could end up being inapplicable or even counterproductive, but oh well.)
posted by praemunire at 8:58 PM on March 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 8:58 PM on March 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
This question resonates with me a lot. I am also a heavy set female with above average intelligence. I don't get bullied for being smart per say, but I definitely experience people not listening to me, and then it ends up that I was right. There are many good responses here regarding the mental aspects of dealing with being in this position, so I wanted to point out some of the physical things I do to make myself seem more assertive without being arrogant. First, I try to dress to impress. It's so important to buy well-fitting clothes. When I went from working from home to teaching at a high school a couple years ago, I completely revamped my wardrobe with business casual plus - like a step above business casual, but not quite business formal. Now, you might be thinking that sounds fancy, expensive, and uncomfortable, but it was not. I bought a bunch of stretchy pencil skirts from Kohl's and matching tops. Kohl's always has sales and coupons. If there isn't a Kohl's by you, other department stores usually have the same sales model. The standard advice is dress for the job you want, not the job you have. You didn't mention wanting to move up in the work world, but I'm definitely at the point in my career where I'm ready to be a boss.
Second, I discovered power lifting. I was always a casual weight lifter, but I got serious about it when I turned 29. I decided if I was going to be a fat girl, I was at least going to be able to kick ass and take names. I'm not saying that you should take up lifting if it isn't your thing, but I think finding some sort of exercise that you enjoy will give you more confidence in your body.
Lastly, own it. The best advice a supervisor ever gave me was to be myself. It took me a long time to be able to do that 100%, but I'm there now. If people are already bullying you for being smart and you're trying to hold, it won't be any worse if you don't hold back and are full on arrogant smart. Carry yourself with confidence. If you look like someone who is well-respected, people will respect you, yourself included.
posted by DEiBnL13 at 10:09 PM on March 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
Second, I discovered power lifting. I was always a casual weight lifter, but I got serious about it when I turned 29. I decided if I was going to be a fat girl, I was at least going to be able to kick ass and take names. I'm not saying that you should take up lifting if it isn't your thing, but I think finding some sort of exercise that you enjoy will give you more confidence in your body.
Lastly, own it. The best advice a supervisor ever gave me was to be myself. It took me a long time to be able to do that 100%, but I'm there now. If people are already bullying you for being smart and you're trying to hold, it won't be any worse if you don't hold back and are full on arrogant smart. Carry yourself with confidence. If you look like someone who is well-respected, people will respect you, yourself included.
posted by DEiBnL13 at 10:09 PM on March 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
My immediate thought as I was reading your question was that you should be in a smarter profession, one where all the people are smart and the pay is good so you are no longer poor. My suggestion is Technology. Doesn't have to be programming. You could be a business analyst or a project manager or a tester.
posted by CathyG at 10:23 PM on March 8, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by CathyG at 10:23 PM on March 8, 2021 [6 favorites]
I got hounded out/let go of every low-level office job I had as a young woman for unpopularity, and sometimes for being perceived as being too smart for my own good (if it was a multi-person office...I did great as a single office worker). My solution was to start working in tech, which had an entirely different set of problems, but for the years that I worked there, I never experienced a single Karen, whereas offices are filled with leagues of them and they will shank you every chance they get. Desperately unhappy and uneducated people who feel trapped are always looking for a scapegoat. I realize your problems may be different, because you specifically mention men, but I think it's a possibility that a change of industry may help. Where I have not a clue. If that is the issue, it could take some experimenting to figure it out. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
I wholeheartedly agree with the advice to not make yourself smaller for them. Look at it this way:. You aren't winning making yourself as small as possible so take up the kind of space that makes YOU happy and comfortable with yourself.
posted by liminal_shadows at 10:34 PM on March 8, 2021 [6 favorites]
I wholeheartedly agree with the advice to not make yourself smaller for them. Look at it this way:. You aren't winning making yourself as small as possible so take up the kind of space that makes YOU happy and comfortable with yourself.
posted by liminal_shadows at 10:34 PM on March 8, 2021 [6 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. As a reminder, OP has specified "Note: I am not interested in advice on how I should have handled these situations."
posted by taz (staff) at 1:13 AM on March 9, 2021
posted by taz (staff) at 1:13 AM on March 9, 2021
OP, I really feel for you - and can absolutely see where you are coming from. I am a woman in my 40's, smart, and overweight, as well as not very feminine. I have a very strong sense of fairness, and your question is making me so angry on your behalf.
I absolutely believe that the discrimination you are facing is NOT because of anything you are doing. I think you are correct that what you are facing is discrimination because of who you are and how society conditions us and others to behave.
There is no simple answer, but I can suggest a few tricks that have worked for me. Firstly, I learned to be more assertive. Ar*ehole older male colleagues often responded better if I was blunter and more direct - especially in email. It was really hard at first but seemed to improve things when I was being condescended to. Assertive not aggressive worked for me.
Secondly, I would play the internal game of pretending I was some kind of alien observing weird behaviour. This was easier during in-person meetings but could work online. I would play bullshit bingo in my head for particularly annoying people, and it did seem to distract from the unfairness and annoyance.
Thirdly, I worked hard on being less upset about confrontation - although this is an ongoing struggle. I would try to separate my feeling from what I was actually trying to change or push back on - to see the issue from my annoying boss's point of view. He probably didn't really care, but was just abrasive about it. So I would try not to care and move on. This is easier said than done.
Overall though, there isn't an easy answer. I, like others above, would suggest that a different workplace is probably the answer - perhaps one in tech/academia as suggested? I am in an academic/research bubble type job, where intelligence is valued very highly and where we have a very good work culture. This, of course, really depends on what is available where you are and what the job market is like, so it's hard to make any concrete suggestions.
Good luck, and please do memail me if you would like.
posted by sedimentary_deer at 1:14 AM on March 9, 2021
I absolutely believe that the discrimination you are facing is NOT because of anything you are doing. I think you are correct that what you are facing is discrimination because of who you are and how society conditions us and others to behave.
There is no simple answer, but I can suggest a few tricks that have worked for me. Firstly, I learned to be more assertive. Ar*ehole older male colleagues often responded better if I was blunter and more direct - especially in email. It was really hard at first but seemed to improve things when I was being condescended to. Assertive not aggressive worked for me.
Secondly, I would play the internal game of pretending I was some kind of alien observing weird behaviour. This was easier during in-person meetings but could work online. I would play bullshit bingo in my head for particularly annoying people, and it did seem to distract from the unfairness and annoyance.
Thirdly, I worked hard on being less upset about confrontation - although this is an ongoing struggle. I would try to separate my feeling from what I was actually trying to change or push back on - to see the issue from my annoying boss's point of view. He probably didn't really care, but was just abrasive about it. So I would try not to care and move on. This is easier said than done.
Overall though, there isn't an easy answer. I, like others above, would suggest that a different workplace is probably the answer - perhaps one in tech/academia as suggested? I am in an academic/research bubble type job, where intelligence is valued very highly and where we have a very good work culture. This, of course, really depends on what is available where you are and what the job market is like, so it's hard to make any concrete suggestions.
Good luck, and please do memail me if you would like.
posted by sedimentary_deer at 1:14 AM on March 9, 2021
How do you get people to see you and recognize your strengths
Unfortunately, there are always going to be people who don’t want to recognise your strengths and there will be people who recognise your strengths and see you as a threat because of this and will do everything they can to take you down/keep you ‘in your place’.
I would cultivate a strong sense of self in that the things that you are doing - the tasks you’re doing, skills you’re building, knowledge you’re gaining - are for you.
I don’t think that this is necessarily industry-based, but a good way to remove yourself from a lot of it (although not all of it) is to work remotely and/or for yourself.
I also think that adapting your communication to different contexts is important - rather than diminishing or minimising yourself, think of it from a survival perspective - it’s a very smart thing to be able to adapt to a variety of contexts and talk to a variety of people in a way that lets you do what you want to do without all their drama - but make sure you also find an outlet in which you can express yourself to the extent you want to - maybe you need to start your own business, or write your own plays, or be an independent researcher...whatever it is, you’re going to have to do it for yourself.
posted by heyjude at 1:58 AM on March 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately, there are always going to be people who don’t want to recognise your strengths and there will be people who recognise your strengths and see you as a threat because of this and will do everything they can to take you down/keep you ‘in your place’.
I would cultivate a strong sense of self in that the things that you are doing - the tasks you’re doing, skills you’re building, knowledge you’re gaining - are for you.
I don’t think that this is necessarily industry-based, but a good way to remove yourself from a lot of it (although not all of it) is to work remotely and/or for yourself.
I also think that adapting your communication to different contexts is important - rather than diminishing or minimising yourself, think of it from a survival perspective - it’s a very smart thing to be able to adapt to a variety of contexts and talk to a variety of people in a way that lets you do what you want to do without all their drama - but make sure you also find an outlet in which you can express yourself to the extent you want to - maybe you need to start your own business, or write your own plays, or be an independent researcher...whatever it is, you’re going to have to do it for yourself.
posted by heyjude at 1:58 AM on March 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Part of the reason I am pursuing top surgery is that I have noted that "domineering" becomes "commanding", "bitchy" becomes "authoritative", the moment it is no longer evident to the speaker that my body has breasts.
posted by WaywardPlane at 5:05 AM on March 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by WaywardPlane at 5:05 AM on March 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think most women, especially as they get older, experience some version of some of this in the workplace.
I think you put way too much value on being intelligent. It is a great quality to have, but so is a sense of humor, so is empathy, so is patience.
I think it is self-limiting to look at every experience as "they don't like me because I'm smarter than they think I should be." You had grade school teachers who were threatened by your intelligence?? ? I accept you feel this way, and I've had many bad educational experiences, but to frame you entire life as rooted in this seems unhelpful. Maybe they were just lousy teachers. Maybe your co-worker was having a bad day and your idiot lesson document (in their view) was the last straw. Not to justify bad treatment, I'm just offering that there might be other things going on that have nothing to do with you, or are at least not a direct response to your persona. I'm not dismissing your experience here, it just seems reading each of these instances as fitting your narrative might be creating needless collateral damage.
I offer hope that there are places that support their employees and let them thrive, where a quality employee does get appreciation and validation. For me, things got much better as I developed confidence and was less and less concerned about other people's issues--the Eleanor Roosevelt quote: "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" has helped me quite a bit.
good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 7:48 AM on March 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think you put way too much value on being intelligent. It is a great quality to have, but so is a sense of humor, so is empathy, so is patience.
I think it is self-limiting to look at every experience as "they don't like me because I'm smarter than they think I should be." You had grade school teachers who were threatened by your intelligence?? ? I accept you feel this way, and I've had many bad educational experiences, but to frame you entire life as rooted in this seems unhelpful. Maybe they were just lousy teachers. Maybe your co-worker was having a bad day and your idiot lesson document (in their view) was the last straw. Not to justify bad treatment, I'm just offering that there might be other things going on that have nothing to do with you, or are at least not a direct response to your persona. I'm not dismissing your experience here, it just seems reading each of these instances as fitting your narrative might be creating needless collateral damage.
I offer hope that there are places that support their employees and let them thrive, where a quality employee does get appreciation and validation. For me, things got much better as I developed confidence and was less and less concerned about other people's issues--the Eleanor Roosevelt quote: "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" has helped me quite a bit.
good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 7:48 AM on March 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
I hesitate to offer any advice, because I think much of what you're facing could be due to unfair prejudices related to your gender, appearance, or class, and I don't have any advice on how to handle that (fwiw, I'm a Asian-American man working in a profession where my race is underrepresented but far from unusual and where my gender is the default). But if your situation involves something more than prejudice and sexism, let me suggest that you start thinking of job as a place that values only one thing: how well you do your job. Your co-workers don't care about any of your innate qualities -- not even your intelligence -- except to the extent they help you in your work -- and help your co-workers in theirs.
If that requires you to stop using French loan words because your co-workers need to stop their work to look up what apropos means, that's what you'll have to start doing at work.
If you feel like you need to express your intelligence at work, then I'll second Cathy G's comment that you need to be in a smarter profession. But I caution you: in highly educated professions where everyone is "intelligent," the need for soft skills becomes all the more important. In an office where everyone is smart, the person with no tact or social skills (not saying that's you) might just stand out all the more.
Finally, I wonder if you might be better served if you no longer thought of your "intelligence" as a lifelong defining quality (this might be easier if you worked in a smarter profession and everyone around you was smart). I'm not saying you can't be privately proud of your brain, but stop thinking of it as the pole around which you measure your interactions with others. You are an adult, but your post makes two references to the role your intelligence played in your childhood. That made me think of the AskMe where the OP (an adult) talked about how hard it was make friends because he was gifted and of a comment in that thread: Fwiw, I don't think 'gifted' is a category that most people find meaningful in adults. As an adult, one has either done something with this giftedness, or not. If you have channelled it into something meaningful, perhaps identify yourself through those means. If not, then perhaps focus on doing so. Being 'gifted' is a (contentious) concept that refers to your potential. In adult life your potential is really less relevant than what you are doing with it.
posted by jojobobo at 2:21 AM on September 6, 2017 [14 favorites −] [!]
posted by hhc5 at 11:54 AM on March 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
If that requires you to stop using French loan words because your co-workers need to stop their work to look up what apropos means, that's what you'll have to start doing at work.
If you feel like you need to express your intelligence at work, then I'll second Cathy G's comment that you need to be in a smarter profession. But I caution you: in highly educated professions where everyone is "intelligent," the need for soft skills becomes all the more important. In an office where everyone is smart, the person with no tact or social skills (not saying that's you) might just stand out all the more.
Finally, I wonder if you might be better served if you no longer thought of your "intelligence" as a lifelong defining quality (this might be easier if you worked in a smarter profession and everyone around you was smart). I'm not saying you can't be privately proud of your brain, but stop thinking of it as the pole around which you measure your interactions with others. You are an adult, but your post makes two references to the role your intelligence played in your childhood. That made me think of the AskMe where the OP (an adult) talked about how hard it was make friends because he was gifted and of a comment in that thread: Fwiw, I don't think 'gifted' is a category that most people find meaningful in adults. As an adult, one has either done something with this giftedness, or not. If you have channelled it into something meaningful, perhaps identify yourself through those means. If not, then perhaps focus on doing so. Being 'gifted' is a (contentious) concept that refers to your potential. In adult life your potential is really less relevant than what you are doing with it.
posted by jojobobo at 2:21 AM on September 6, 2017 [14 favorites −] [!]
posted by hhc5 at 11:54 AM on March 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Man, former "gifted kid" here and I really do feel for you. Honestly? I think the whole "gifted kid" thing really screws us over more than it helps us. Sure, in theory it gets you extra support and challenge in school, and puts you on the radar of folks who can help you access opportunities that you might otherwise miss. In practice, far more often, adults are real shitheads about it, both undermining you and setting unrealistic expectations, forgetting that you're still actually a child and in need of teaching/parenting... and it puts a big ol target on your back for other kids, too, all because you could read and do sums a little better or a little earlier than someone else's kid. Blergh, a fuckin' mess is what it is.
My perspective is that of a middle-aged white cis lady, but I do have "poor" and "unattractive" working against me. I've been lucky; I landed early in an industry dominated by women and more importantly by real-ass nerds and dorks, just like me. There are fields, and niches of fields, in which being a nerd alert who loves her booky-wook is totally an asset. Education, niche media, journalism, certain areas of law and government...you mention design in your post, well, all of these fields have publishing opportunities, and need designers, and are full of people who know the word "apropos" (lol).
It's simultaneously really hard and really easy to feel smart in this world, so I'm not entirely sold that "feeling smart inside" is a goal that is going to end up being really useful. Does that make sense? Like, any human is going to feel smart when they're doing something within their wheelhouse and getting praise for it, but both of those things are at best marginally within your control, and it's best not to tie your internal stability and security to things outside your control.
Instead, it might be more helpful to think about how you can attain, and maintain, clear and thorough self-knowledge. That way, even if someone else decides they think you're difficult, or mediocre, or unambitious, you feel secure in the truth of the matter. And nobody's smart about/good at everything; wisdom is just as much about seeing where you're the doofus. And we're all the doofus sometimes. It's fully ok to be the doofus. (I am the doofus in, like, a solid 65% of all situations.)
Now the problem is that part of self-knowledge IS checking yourself against external benchmarks and having people who can honestly reflect you back to yourself, and you're right that as someone who is a minority on several axes, that's gonna be hard. Friends, of course, are the first line of support on this. But professionals are your friend here, too: therapists and coaches, people who aren't in a position to be competing with, supervising, or reporting to you. Get you someone who is clear-eyed but ultimately in your corner, check in with them regularly, and you will start feeling more confident in your self-assessments and less gaslit by those jerkbags at your job.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:21 PM on March 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
My perspective is that of a middle-aged white cis lady, but I do have "poor" and "unattractive" working against me. I've been lucky; I landed early in an industry dominated by women and more importantly by real-ass nerds and dorks, just like me. There are fields, and niches of fields, in which being a nerd alert who loves her booky-wook is totally an asset. Education, niche media, journalism, certain areas of law and government...you mention design in your post, well, all of these fields have publishing opportunities, and need designers, and are full of people who know the word "apropos" (lol).
It's simultaneously really hard and really easy to feel smart in this world, so I'm not entirely sold that "feeling smart inside" is a goal that is going to end up being really useful. Does that make sense? Like, any human is going to feel smart when they're doing something within their wheelhouse and getting praise for it, but both of those things are at best marginally within your control, and it's best not to tie your internal stability and security to things outside your control.
Instead, it might be more helpful to think about how you can attain, and maintain, clear and thorough self-knowledge. That way, even if someone else decides they think you're difficult, or mediocre, or unambitious, you feel secure in the truth of the matter. And nobody's smart about/good at everything; wisdom is just as much about seeing where you're the doofus. And we're all the doofus sometimes. It's fully ok to be the doofus. (I am the doofus in, like, a solid 65% of all situations.)
Now the problem is that part of self-knowledge IS checking yourself against external benchmarks and having people who can honestly reflect you back to yourself, and you're right that as someone who is a minority on several axes, that's gonna be hard. Friends, of course, are the first line of support on this. But professionals are your friend here, too: therapists and coaches, people who aren't in a position to be competing with, supervising, or reporting to you. Get you someone who is clear-eyed but ultimately in your corner, check in with them regularly, and you will start feeling more confident in your self-assessments and less gaslit by those jerkbags at your job.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:21 PM on March 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
The jobs you have, how many places to you try at (for resumes, for interviews) before you go into one? Financially and psychologically could you tolerate this being a bigger number? If, because sexism and fat-stigma and all, you're already trying a hundred jobs and interviewing at twenty and stretched to survive, skip the below.
But if you can afford to let your YOU flag fly, and find a job that accepts YOU, you'll be so much happier. My sense is that you're jamming yourself into a box, and getting jobs as that box, and resenting it, and sparring against people who resent your stretching out. You have skills and talents! I think you can perhaps get a job even after some filtering for asshole employers.
And as with dating, the most effective way to filter out assholes -- who may cloak themselves -- is to present definitively as someone assholes hate.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:52 PM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
But if you can afford to let your YOU flag fly, and find a job that accepts YOU, you'll be so much happier. My sense is that you're jamming yourself into a box, and getting jobs as that box, and resenting it, and sparring against people who resent your stretching out. You have skills and talents! I think you can perhaps get a job even after some filtering for asshole employers.
And as with dating, the most effective way to filter out assholes -- who may cloak themselves -- is to present definitively as someone assholes hate.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:52 PM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm neither fat nor female so take this with the salt, but I used to wire "intelligent" into my identity and I became happier once I shifted to what concretely I was talented at or enjoyed regardless of talent. For me part of this involved accepting that not all of my potential was going to happen. That part is going to be harder if it was unfair, so I dunno how you navigate this.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:59 PM on March 10, 2021
posted by away for regrooving at 11:59 PM on March 10, 2021
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posted by praemunire at 2:30 PM on March 8, 2021 [8 favorites]