Pre-gunpowder armies, wars, battles
February 28, 2021 5:38 PM Subscribe
This came up in conversation this week and I realized I know very little about it, and would like to know more: The logistics, strategy, and tactics of pre-gunpowder armies. Got a book for me to read?
I've read a lot about US wars from the Revolution onwards, the French Revolution, the War of 1812, the English Civil War, etc. (I was also forced into ENDLESS games of Axis and Allies by my war-game-crazed cousins who needed a fifth, where I was always forced to be the UK and then chastised for being miserably bad at it.) So I have a fair grasp on how armies (and navies) work with guns and gunpowder. But my cousin was trying to explain something to me about a medieval battle and I realized basically all my references for medieval battles are, uh, fantasy TV shows like Game of Thrones and I don't actually have almost any idea how you run a war when everybody has swords or spears or arrows. So I thought, hey, that's a thing I can read about in quarantine! Hit me up.
I've read a lot about US wars from the Revolution onwards, the French Revolution, the War of 1812, the English Civil War, etc. (I was also forced into ENDLESS games of Axis and Allies by my war-game-crazed cousins who needed a fifth, where I was always forced to be the UK and then chastised for being miserably bad at it.) So I have a fair grasp on how armies (and navies) work with guns and gunpowder. But my cousin was trying to explain something to me about a medieval battle and I realized basically all my references for medieval battles are, uh, fantasy TV shows like Game of Thrones and I don't actually have almost any idea how you run a war when everybody has swords or spears or arrows. So I thought, hey, that's a thing I can read about in quarantine! Hit me up.
I haven't listened to this yet so can't vouch for it directly, but it features guest Dr. Eleanor Janega, who I suspect would be extremely up your alley in general. (Her main thing is medieval sexuality and she is extremely up for fighting with idiot neo-nazi white supremacist/Christianist types on twitter)
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:48 PM on February 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:48 PM on February 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
You should definitely check Bret Devereaux's blog. He's actually even got a series going now about soldiery in history that speaks a little to that, but he's also got a ton in his archives talking about how war was actually fought in history and how fantasy books get it wrong.
posted by General Malaise at 5:48 PM on February 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by General Malaise at 5:48 PM on February 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
haha, jinx, clew
posted by General Malaise at 5:49 PM on February 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by General Malaise at 5:49 PM on February 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is not exactly a small topic. :) In addition to the huge timeframe and geographic area this covers, sources are really fragmentary compared to the post-gunpowder ages. And unreliable.
Not surprised to see Deveraux's blog listed already.
Here are some books I've read that try to get at the campaigning at least a bit. I just read for fun so thing I remember are more for readability than comprehensiveness.
Scipio Africanus: Greater than Napoleon by Liddell Hart. Despite the silly name probably my favorite of this bunch.
In the Name of Rome by Adrian Goldsworthy. Each chapter is about a general from a different era but the armies themselves are discussed.
Belisarius by Ian Hughes.
To Safeguard the Seas, N.A.M. Rodgers. The early English navy; includes the early gunpowder era but the first 70% is your period of interest, and includes a lot on the impact of the army & navy.
Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages: The English Experience by Michael Prestwich.
A Distant Mirror, by Barbara Tuchman.
Genghis Khan, by Jack Weatherford.
If you don't mind the Great Courses format I found Garret Fagan's Great Battles of the Ancient World pretty good, spanning ~3500 years of history over two dozen lectures.
John Keegan's The Face of Battle includes a chapter on Agincourt.
The Gunpowder Age by Tonio Andrade actually includes a lot about the transition to gunpowder armies, so while not exactly what you want the compare/contrast aspect may be interesting to you. It also gives equal (or more) weight to Chinese military history, lacking from most of other recs.
posted by mark k at 6:43 PM on February 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
Not surprised to see Deveraux's blog listed already.
Here are some books I've read that try to get at the campaigning at least a bit. I just read for fun so thing I remember are more for readability than comprehensiveness.
Scipio Africanus: Greater than Napoleon by Liddell Hart. Despite the silly name probably my favorite of this bunch.
In the Name of Rome by Adrian Goldsworthy. Each chapter is about a general from a different era but the armies themselves are discussed.
Belisarius by Ian Hughes.
To Safeguard the Seas, N.A.M. Rodgers. The early English navy; includes the early gunpowder era but the first 70% is your period of interest, and includes a lot on the impact of the army & navy.
Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages: The English Experience by Michael Prestwich.
A Distant Mirror, by Barbara Tuchman.
Genghis Khan, by Jack Weatherford.
If you don't mind the Great Courses format I found Garret Fagan's Great Battles of the Ancient World pretty good, spanning ~3500 years of history over two dozen lectures.
John Keegan's The Face of Battle includes a chapter on Agincourt.
The Gunpowder Age by Tonio Andrade actually includes a lot about the transition to gunpowder armies, so while not exactly what you want the compare/contrast aspect may be interesting to you. It also gives equal (or more) weight to Chinese military history, lacking from most of other recs.
posted by mark k at 6:43 PM on February 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
how you run a war when everybody has ... spears or arrows
Maybe surprisingly, that remains sort of an open question for a battle fought with spears and arrows in 1961 and recorded on film. If you dig into it, note that there's a follow up film from 2013 that might help avoid thinking about it ahistorically (a common problem in earlier ethnographic film).
posted by Wobbuffet at 6:44 PM on February 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
Maybe surprisingly, that remains sort of an open question for a battle fought with spears and arrows in 1961 and recorded on film. If you dig into it, note that there's a follow up film from 2013 that might help avoid thinking about it ahistorically (a common problem in earlier ethnographic film).
posted by Wobbuffet at 6:44 PM on February 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
Total War series has a couple of entries pre-gunpower. Rome, Shogun, Medieval, Attila, Three Kingdoms, and Troy.
posted by kschang at 8:07 PM on February 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by kschang at 8:07 PM on February 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
Another thing is BBC Time Commanders, where amateurs try to re-enact old battles using the Total War game, then historians critique their performance. :)
Episode 1
posted by kschang at 8:15 PM on February 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
Episode 1
posted by kschang at 8:15 PM on February 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
Supplying War: Logistics from Wallenstein to Patton by Martin van Creveld is also a great text to help understand the logistics of the time period mentioned. It's a book that really helps you understand campaigns not from a battles perspective but from what really made them possible.
posted by Carillon at 10:15 PM on February 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 10:15 PM on February 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
Maybe you can find these in your library. Garrett Fagan was such a wonderful lecturer. His Rome series is also just fabulous, even better than this one, but this one's in the same vein.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:30 AM on March 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:30 AM on March 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow, Bret Devereaux's blog is fantastic, I've been reading for like two hours now.
And yes, I love the Great Courses and can get them through my library. :) Going to go look up books suggestions now to see what I can get. :)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:01 AM on March 1, 2021
And yes, I love the Great Courses and can get them through my library. :) Going to go look up books suggestions now to see what I can get. :)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:01 AM on March 1, 2021
Seconding A Distant Mirror by Barbara Tuchman, my favorite writer for accessible history writing. And also seconding anything to do with Dr. Eleanor Janega. Her blog is great (though she's much more active on Twitter) and may have some resources. (Fair warning: I have gone down some thoroughly enjoyable medieval rabbit holes based on things she has posted.)
posted by bedhead at 1:51 PM on March 1, 2021
posted by bedhead at 1:51 PM on March 1, 2021
Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History podcast often went to pre-gunpowder stuff, it looks like only the most recent 10 or so episodes are available in most podcast feeds.
posted by rockindata at 2:49 PM on March 1, 2021
posted by rockindata at 2:49 PM on March 1, 2021
Correct. Older episodes are a buck or two. and I think you can get a whole series for a discount.
The free episodes King of Kings I, II, and III discusses the Persian Empire, and how they are often used as fodder, yet are the largest empire of its time.
posted by kschang at 3:25 PM on March 1, 2021
The free episodes King of Kings I, II, and III discusses the Persian Empire, and how they are often used as fodder, yet are the largest empire of its time.
posted by kschang at 3:25 PM on March 1, 2021
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posted by clew at 5:47 PM on February 28, 2021 [9 favorites]