Well at least she won't want me to meet her parents, right?

March 28, 2006 11:15 AM

Are we distantly related enough that this isn't incest?

A friend introduced me to a beautiful woman with the same uncommon last name as me. We hit it off and basically spent the last week in bed. We'd talked about how weird it is that we have the same name, and two nights ago we went through family history in pretty intense detail. Turns out that we share a great-grandfather.

Legally, this is not incest. Socially, is it? America (the country of residence) is really grossed out by the idea of incest. Is dating going to cause trouble? I know it would be awkward to explain why we have the same name, and there are a few other situations that would just be weird. The friend who introduced us says she thinks it's distant enough, but what about people that haven't known both of us for five years and understand how complicated our families are?

She's an incredible girl, and I really want to stick with it. Advice would be appreciated. Jokes about Kentucky will be tolerated.

posted by anonymous to human relations (62 comments total)

You're third cousins. There's nothing wrong with dating at all.
posted by JanetLand at 11:27 AM on March 28, 2006

Second cousin? no problem.....

in a first cousin, i'd worry about the doubling of the genes (that your genetic makups are so similar), but second
cousins....

Mazel Tov!
posted by Izzmeister at 11:27 AM on March 28, 2006

I don't see anything wrong with it. What is the CLOSEST relative that you two have in common? A cousin? Second cousin?
posted by k8t at 11:28 AM on March 28, 2006

on review: Sharing a great grandfather means your grandparents were siblings, a la second cousins, not third....
posted by Izzmeister at 11:28 AM on March 28, 2006

And by closest, I don't mean genetically, I mean relatives that you spend time with.
posted by k8t at 11:28 AM on March 28, 2006

Speaking for Indiana (the first googleable legal code result), incest is:

A person eighteen (18) years of age or older who engages in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual conduct with another person, when the person knows that the other person is related to the person biologically as a parent, child, grandparent, grandchild, sibling, aunt, uncle, niece, or nephew, commits incest

So in that state, at least, you're in the clear.
posted by I Love Tacos at 11:29 AM on March 28, 2006

Whoops, sorry, Izzmeister has it right. Second cousins. Still no problem.
posted by JanetLand at 11:29 AM on March 28, 2006

Oh, and to avoid questions about the name, just elope early.
posted by I Love Tacos at 11:30 AM on March 28, 2006

Legally you're fine.

Genetically you're fine, in fact many people feel that it's genetically OK for first cousins to reproduce, as long as your family doesn't keep doing it.
posted by delmoi at 11:33 AM on March 28, 2006

Second cousins, seriously. What everybody else said. You kids run along and have fun, now.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:35 AM on March 28, 2006

State criminal incest statues (pdf.)
posted by ColdChef at 11:36 AM on March 28, 2006

Eleanor Roosevelt's maiden name was Eleanor Roosevelt. She and FDR were fifth cousins (if I'm reading the chart correctly.) Since you've never met this person before, and your immediate families aren't familiar with each other, then go nuts.

Put two Boston Brahmins together, or two Ashkenazi Jews together, and more likely than not you'll find a common ancestor somewhere. How many people were there on the Mayflower anyway?
posted by Saucy Intruder at 11:38 AM on March 28, 2006

Wasn't Eleanor Roosevelt the second cousin of FDR? I never even heard his critics lay into him for that.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:46 AM on March 28, 2006

Socially, you're under no compulsion to point out to everybody you meet "hey, we're second cousins and we're dating!". If people remark on how remarkable it is that the two of you share an uncommon last name, you can just nod and say "Yeah, weird, isn't it?". It probably would squick some people out, but your not at great risk of passing on bad genes to your hypothetical offspring, you aren't breaking the law, and the fact that you approached each other as strangers rather than as family members negates any vestigial squick IMO.

Amusing side note: I have friends who are married and (technically) step-siblings. Her divorced mom met his divorced dad at their wedding, and then wound up getting married themselves.
posted by adamrice at 11:52 AM on March 28, 2006

This sort of thing has also gone on all the time among European royalty... the Queen and her husband are both descended from Queen Victoria, for instance.

I'd bet that marriage between second and third cousins has been extremely common throughout human history.

It's not a problem.
posted by plep at 11:52 AM on March 28, 2006

It's a tad weird but fine. If this happened to someone I knew personally, I would consider it "interesting/weird" rather than "disgusting/weird". Somewhat related (sorry), this page says that Einstein married his double cousin (first cousin on his mom's side, and second cousin on his dad's side). That freaks me out.
posted by unknowncommand at 11:52 AM on March 28, 2006

I know this doesn't answer your question...
A cousin of mine dated (and lived with) a girl that had the same last name as him. They began to get mail to Mr. & Mrs. X. They also got a bank account together. The ended up getting a divorce even though they never married.
posted by nimsey lou at 11:53 AM on March 28, 2006

Legally, this is not incest. Socially, is it? ... Advice would be appreciated.

Just don't tell anyone. Yeah, there are people who will find it weird. I kinda do. Why does anyone need to know that you're related? If the question comes up, brush it off or lie. It's a white lie. You're not harming or deceiving anyone; you're just using the word "No" as a more polite way of saying, "None of your goddamn business."
posted by cribcage at 12:01 PM on March 28, 2006

Izzmeister, doesn't sharing a great-grandfather (as opposed to sharing great-grandparents) mean that their grandparents were half siblings? So they would be like half-second cousins or some weird thing like that. In any case, genetically even further apart than second cousins. So there's absolutely no problem.
posted by Turd Ferguson at 12:04 PM on March 28, 2006

Your Y chromosome came from the same guy that her dad's came from.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:07 PM on March 28, 2006

They ended up getting a divorce even though they never married.

Do you mean that literally? Because that makes no sense.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:10 PM on March 28, 2006

In small communities of the kind most people used to live in until very recently, you'd probably have to leave town to find somebody more distantly related than that. There's nothing weird about it at all.
posted by nowonmai at 12:14 PM on March 28, 2006

Your Y chromosome came from the same guy that her dad's came from.

There's only a 1 in 8 chance that's true, because anon didn't specify that it was a paternal great-grandparent. There's also a 1 in 8 chance that you share an X. And a zero chance that you have the same X and Y as her dad.

So if you do share an X, and have a female child, she might have two of the same X, and the chances of that would be * brain explodes *
posted by Saucy Intruder at 12:20 PM on March 28, 2006

Your Y chromosome came from the same guy that her dad's came from.

True, since you share last names, and assuming no one cheated on each other and got pregnant along the line. It's interesting, in an Electra-complex kind of way, but not a real cause for concern I think..
posted by hazyjane at 12:22 PM on March 28, 2006

no hemophilia in the family, right? or cystic fibrosis? sickle cell anemia? I'm not being coy, but you are closer genetically to her than to a person randomly selected from the population. I don't think it's that big of a deal, but I definitely wouldn't go advertising to people that you're actually second cousins.
posted by emd3737 at 12:23 PM on March 28, 2006

Your Y chromosome came from the same guy that her dad's came from.

Which she dosn't have.
posted by delmoi at 12:27 PM on March 28, 2006

my sibling dated our second cousin on and off for several years. (they didn't realize when they met our family is just huge) in the end i would say it was the 'family' situation that broke them up. it was just too much for some of the people in our family (we came from a catholic family so i think it would depend on how your family is). personaly i supported them but i think that after time the pressure from those that didn't just wore them down.
posted by kantgirl at 12:28 PM on March 28, 2006

This is not in the least bit weird. First of all, the real taboo (for me at least, but I don't think I'm alone) with incest is having sexual relations with someone you grew up with, as family.

Second cousins is OK, especially since you never even knew you were second cousins. There is not even the hint of taboo incest here. It'd be mildly weird, but still no one's business but your own, if you two had been in constant contact as family growing up. You weren't.

Case closed.

And don't mention it, if it bothers you, so the few folks who might be weirded out just won't know.

Have at it (I have some damn fine second cousins).
posted by teece at 12:29 PM on March 28, 2006

Uh, women don't have Y chromosones.

As for the name, my husband and I have the same odd first name. Just shrug it off and say it's weird. You don't have to say you're related. In fact, you could make a joke about specifically looking for people with that name so that you don't have to argue about who takes whose name. Distraction.
posted by acoutu at 12:32 PM on March 28, 2006

I know an uncle that married his niece.

and since he has a marriage license, I'll assume that in NY at least, it's not illegal??
posted by Izzmeister at 12:36 PM on March 28, 2006

For what it's worth, Rudolph Giuliani's first marriage was to his second cousin, and it hasn't seemed to hurt him socially or politically.
posted by deadmessenger at 12:46 PM on March 28, 2006

Dude, you've known her a *week*. I'd be more worried about that than the incest.
posted by bonaldi at 1:04 PM on March 28, 2006

They ended up getting a divorce even though they never married.

Do you mean that literally? Because that makes no sense.

I think nimsey lou meant it literally. In other words, she meant it figuratively.
posted by pardonyou? at 1:11 PM on March 28, 2006

Right or wrong, there's a clinical term for what you're going through: Genetic sexual attraction. If you google the phrase, you'll come across many more discussions about it.
posted by randomstriker at 1:16 PM on March 28, 2006

Most of the world doesn't share our hangups about marrying a cousin.

You're fine, dude.
posted by DieHipsterDie at 1:20 PM on March 28, 2006

So will she take your name or go with the hyphen?
posted by jaysus chris at 1:23 PM on March 28, 2006

To be fair they could always take each other's name.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:38 PM on March 28, 2006

I'm suprised that nobody has mentioned a term for second cousins that has fallen out of usage: "kissing cousins".
posted by baphomet at 1:47 PM on March 28, 2006

Yes, you have her father's Y chromosome, but she doesn't. Your X chromosome and her two X chromosomes have nothing in common (you each got an X from your mom, and she got her father's X).

That's one pair. People do seem to forget that they have another twenty-two pairs of chromosomes. Among each of your forty-six individual chromosomes you probably have two or three individual chromosomes from this man. More is not impossible, but that's the average (he gave twenty three to his son, thrice divided by two down to you). Could be more, but it gets increasingly unlikely. The chances that you have the same small handful from among the forty-six in the old man's body is really quite low (any real statisticians/geneticists out there care to give some precise probabilities?).

There's clearly nothing medically wrong with the situation unless you have some very specific genetic issue to worry about (and you can probably get tested for it if you do). Your common ancestry is absolutely no reason not to pursue the relationship if you're both interested in doing so. And if you think your family would act weird at a wedding then you don't have to have one. Don't let anyone else's small mindedness constrain your life.
posted by Songdog at 1:58 PM on March 28, 2006

I have a first cousin who is married to one of our second cousins. Doesn't seem to bother anyone in the family (but then we are from Louisiana).
posted by Carbolic at 2:00 PM on March 28, 2006

Most of the world doesn't even sweat first cousins marrying, I wouldn't worry about it at all.
posted by Mitheral at 2:03 PM on March 28, 2006

"Yeah, we're distantly related."
"I don't remember exactly how. It's very confusing."
posted by BoscosMom at 2:03 PM on March 28, 2006

For what it's worth, Rudolph Giuliani's first marriage was to his second cousin, and it hasn't seemed to hurt him socially or politically.

Not to mention the fact that his paternal grandmother and paternal grandfather, back in Italy, both had the surname Giuliani and were presumably related too...

But yeah, genetically there shouldn't be a problem with first cousins marrying, as long as the family doesn't make a habit of it, like the Wilkes' in "Gone With the Wind".
posted by Asparagirl at 2:12 PM on March 28, 2006

If someone asked me about the name thing, I'd go the other way with it: "Yeah, well, she's my sister... but she's so damn hot!" Then give her a big disgusting sloppy kiss.

But then I guess I'm kind of a smart ass sometimes...
posted by spilon at 2:14 PM on March 28, 2006

"Yeah, we're distantly related."
"I don't remember exactly how. It's very confusing." - BoscosMom

*dingding!* We have a winner!

As well explained by others in this thread, you're fine. Except there WILL be some people who have a problem with it. How much you'd let that bother is your choice. I think being vague as BoscosMom suggested is a good tactic to reduce the amount of reactions that you'll have to deal with.
posted by raedyn at 2:23 PM on March 28, 2006

incest, no. pretty gross, yes.
posted by matteo at 2:28 PM on March 28, 2006

Pretty gross? Huh? Someone has issues.
posted by Justinian at 2:55 PM on March 28, 2006

You don't really need another response telling you that you're fine, but anyway: you're fine. Even first cousins is not a big deal to many people.
posted by teleskiving at 3:02 PM on March 28, 2006

It might freak your kids out but they'll get over it.
posted by blue_beetle at 3:05 PM on March 28, 2006

I won't freak out your kids. To your kids it will be normal. It might freak out your kids' friends who've never heard of such a thing, or who have bigoted parents who tell them it's fross or whatever. But your kids aren't likely to have a problem with.

/child of lesbian mother
posted by raedyn at 3:10 PM on March 28, 2006

My son is also my ninth cousin. This freaks some people out, so I know that you're going to get some "eeew!" comments -- but the people making those comments are confused.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:13 PM on March 28, 2006

Ok, here's the big misconception. Marrying a cousin, even a first cousin, will not "cause" birth defects, or anything like that. The only problem is that if you have a pre-existing hereditary disease or mutation in your family, marrying a relative increases the chance that it would be passed on. That being said, it appears that this person is your second cousin, and maybe not even that. The chance that this would cause any type of problem with your children is very minimal. So I say go for it. You may not want to advertise the fact that you are second cousins, since some ignorant people are bound to find it weird.
posted by katyggls at 3:34 PM on March 28, 2006

Remember when River wanted to marry Simon. That was kinda cute and scary.
posted by malp at 3:47 PM on March 28, 2006

I'm my own grandpa, ok more to the point.

Since you are legally and genetically in the clear the most important aspect will be how the two of you will feel. While Metafilter tends to be socially liberal so the overwhelming response you have gotten is "It's ok... don't worry", you may face some people who go
incest, no. pretty gross, yes.
posted by matteo at 4:28 PM CST on March 28 [!] , if you advertise the fact. So, there is SOME potential social stigma, if you advertise your genetic relation (as you probably have guessed by posting annon).
I'm mildly curious how the lady feels about the situation.
posted by edgeways at 4:15 PM on March 28, 2006

It's a tiny bit weird, but nothing to quibble over. Just be vague.
posted by Ryvar at 4:38 PM on March 28, 2006

Legally, this is not incest. Socially, is it?

No.

She's an incredible girl, and I really want to stick with it. Advice would be appreciated.

Have a sense of humor about it, and enjoy your relationship.

Fact from a previous discussion:

. . . according to Robin Fox, a professor of anthropology at Rutgers University, it's likely that 80 percent of all marriages in history have been between second cousins or closer.
posted by dgaicun at 7:59 PM on March 28, 2006

I boffed my 2nd cousin in a tree at a wedding about 10 years ago. It was both bizarre and fantastic and even though it wasn't in any way illegal it added a certain frisson to the proceedings.
posted by longbaugh at 4:54 AM on March 29, 2006

I think your biggest issue would be family. I have never met any of my second cousins (that I remember - possibly briefly at large family gatherings) so dating a second cousin would not immediately feel (that) weird to me, but I know all my first cousins and if I one day had a child who wanted to date the child of one of my first cousins - I'd probably feel a little weirded out. Not saying I couldn't get over it, but I think there would be some discomfort at being in-laws with my own cousins - so I'd guess it's the generation above you, who may be closer, that will make it a problem if it's going to be one.
posted by mdn at 8:18 AM on March 29, 2006

I know it would be awkward to explain why we have the same name.

It needn't be. Fib: "It's a funny coincidence." No well-balanced person will be likely to assume that it's incest or anything like it without some very specific provocation.
posted by cortex at 11:54 AM on March 30, 2006

mdn writes "I think your biggest issue would be family. I have never met any of my second cousins (that I remember - possibly briefly at large family gatherings) so dating a second cousin would not immediately feel (that) weird to me, but I know all my first cousins and if I one day had a child who wanted to date the child of one of my first cousins - I'd probably feel a little weirded out."

I've been thinking about mdn's comment for a couple of days. Initially it struck me that I felt the same way: my wife and I know some of our first cousins well, and if our child were to hook up with one of their children it would definitely feel a little weird. This idea really snuck up on me when I considered it in terms of my relationship with my own first cousins.

But here's the kicker, which struck me just last night: in the scenario I was imagining in my own family the first cousins in question are not blood relatives; they are joined to us via adoption. This made me realize that my vague unease had nothing to do with any biological aspects of such a relationship. Rather, it was derived purely from my feelings of family and connection with these people.

I'm not changing my mind about what I've said above. You shouldn't worry about whether other people are comfortable with your relationship; what matters is whether you're comfortable with each other. But it would be wise to remember that things will feel different to the people who are closer to the branching point in your mutual family tree. My child won't feel that immediately connected to his second cousins even if he sees them all the time. They have their own family, with their own parents, their own grandparents. But those parents, first cousins, feel closer. And those grandparents, siblings, are very close indeed. It will probably take everyone some time to get over initial reactions (whatever they may be) and figure out what they actually think about the situation. Be understanding. Just don't sweat it too much.
posted by Songdog at 7:12 AM on March 31, 2006

They ended up getting a divorce even though they never married.

Do you mean that literally? Because that makes no sense.

I think nimsey lou meant it literally. In other words, she meant it figuratively.

Figuratively... Literally... either way, they did have to get a divorce because they were considered married by common law.
posted by nimsey lou at 12:35 PM on April 1, 2006

I've always thought that the taboo against incest was a combination of the genetic weirdness and mistaking brotherly love for..... more than that.

If you grew up next to your 2nd cousin, almost like siblings (or even met in family type situations), then its probably you getting confused about your relationship with her. Since this is obviously not true, I don't think that there is a problem.
posted by Suparnova at 6:38 PM on April 16, 2006