Jokes & comments about W.I.E.R.D. national stereotypes in the USA
January 27, 2021 2:49 AM   Subscribe

Is it offensive or unacceptable to joke about White, Industrialized, Educated, Rich & Developed (W.I.E.R.D.) nationality stereotypes? Comments about the French being rude, British food is bland, Germans are too serious, Italians talk loud with their hands, the Spanish still take a siesta, & closer to home, Canadians are too damn polite off-limits in general? At work? I ask out of curiosity & because of recent experiences. Example 1, I called some coworkers “Brits”. Example 2, I made a comment in a job interview about an Argentine stereotype. *facepalm*

It's S. America but ancestrally & culturally European, at least in Buenos Aires.

Recently, I was on a call with a woman regarding an international project and I referred to a group that I was working with from the UK as the Brits. It’s nothing I can put my finger on, but I got the feeling that she, a Lebanese-American if it matters, hesitated a second after I said the word Brits. It could have been nothing but there was some kind of odd moment.

Last week I was being interviewed for a job by an American that had lived in Buenos Aires for a study abroad. I shared that I had lived there for several years for a previous job that was relevant to the one we were discussing. We had a pretty good rapport and she commented that the Argentines thought their pizza was the best in the world. I casually responded with, “Did you hear about the Argentine that ran to the window when he saw lightning? He thought that God was taking his picture.” It was an ex-expat slip of the tongue. I caught myself and said casually, “Oops, that was probably not a great joke to tell an HR person in a job interview.” She said, “That’s OK. I won’t tell anyone.” It wasn’t quite a complete foot in mouth moment and she seemed to have found it humorous. Of course, reviewing the conversation in my head after the call I couldn't stop asking myself, “Did I blow it?”

It’s South America and not Europe and viewed by some as a developing country and by others as just an economically mismanaged and politically dysfunctional nation. It’s a pretty W.I.E.R.D. nation. The joke is referring to the white Porteños/citizens of Buenos Aires of European ancestry. I think she got the joke and it's fine but it was not the wisest thing to say in an interview.

Even the pope once said, “I surprised everyone by choosing to call myself ‘Francis.’ Being Argentine, they expected I would call myself ‘Jesus II.’” And, “Do you know how an Argentine commits suicide? By climbing onto his ego and jumping.”
posted by Che boludo! to Work & Money (45 answers total) 4 users marked this as a favorite
 
Response by poster: Here is info about W.E.I.R.D. countries.

Also, NOTE: I misspelled W.E.I.R.D. in the question title.
posted by Che boludo! at 2:51 AM on January 27, 2021


It's certainly not recommended, especially in a job interview, but I've heard much, much, worse in Miami, even in professional settings in offices of major US companies headquartered elsewhere. If your interviewer's experience is anything like mine, I would be unsurprised if they have already forgotten about it.
posted by wierdo at 3:03 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]


To me, an Indian-American who reads/watches a lot of British media, "Brits" sounds casual and a bit archaic (WW2 era) but not offensive.

I do find ethnic jokes, of any sort, off-color. Religious jokes too. Of course it's worse if you are punching down, but those stereotypes make you sound like Archie Bunker -- and those jokes were unsympathetic even back in the 70s. People tend to give more leeway to members of the in-group (i.e. I might get away with a self-deprecating joke about Indian Standard Time = show up two hours late to everything, but if a non-Indian said the same thing I'd stare at them in stony silence).

Remember too that an American studying abroad is going to have spent 1-3 months in country, and is going to have a very different relationship to the culture than someone who lived there as a working adult.
posted by basalganglia at 3:06 AM on January 27, 2021 [19 favorites]


I'm Austrian, and I think that Austria for instance is sufficiently W.E.I.R.D to be a fair target.

Still, even with fair targets, there's always a risk a risk that these sort of jokes fall flat, because they are just not terribly orginal. Chances are someone from that country who's been abroad for a while might have already heard those jokes quite often, and it just tends to get old fast. More in the realm of "tiresome" rather than "hatespeak" though.

For what it's worth, if you were to regal me with Austria-specific jokes, I might even be quite pleased, because I'd be impressed you're at least not confusing us with Australia. Sometimes people even like to lean into the more harmless national stereotypes about their own country when they're abroad, because it can be a convenient conversation starter/ice-breaker. My suggestion is to just follow the other person's lead - if they make their nationality a topic and are good humoured/self-depreciating about it, you can jump in; otherwise I'd just look for a different topic.
posted by sohalt at 3:10 AM on January 27, 2021 [14 favorites]


I am an American living in the UK and I don't like jokes about American stereotypes, and it doesn't delight me when people say that I have a good sense of humor for an American because we usually don't understand irony or whatever. I'm not offended exactly it's just negative and doesn't make me feel great. Also I've lived here for 15 years and it's gone way past boring.

Currently at my job we are working closely with a French team who are proving difficult, and I don't participate when my colleagues make comments or jokes which tie the difficulty to French stereotypes. But then again, one of the colleagues on my side IS French, and he joins in or even leads the stereotype-based complaints and jokes.

So, basically, if I had been your interviewer, I probably wouldn't have loved it, but if she laughed about it you're probably fine. I would just reconsider that kind of banter moving forward because there are a million more positive ways to connect with people.
posted by cilantro at 3:11 AM on January 27, 2021 [19 favorites]


I'm British. "Brit" is fine, it's just a shortened version of "British" and frankly I prefer that to "English". I hear North Americans refer to us as Brits a lot and I've never had a problem.

Comments about the French being rude, British food is bland, Germans are too serious, Italians talk loud with their hands, the Spanish still take a siesta,

I would find these all pretty lazy stereotypes, even xenophobic in most cases. Stereotyping nationalities is a bad look, but those comments (bar the British food one) especially are the sort of comments I'd expect to hear from someone (in this country) who makes veiled racist comments about immigrants and voted Leave in the Brexit referendum because they don't like foreigners.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:20 AM on January 27, 2021 [31 favorites]


It's S. America but

You say this twice, but I'm not clear on what "it" refers to? Argentina or the country where you live? Are you Argentinian yourself? South American?

Either way neither of the examples sounds notable to me, but I'm not British, Argentinian, or South American. Your coworker in the first example was probably just confused for a second about what you meant (I've never heard a person actually say the word "Brits", and maybe neither had she), unless you used a disparaging tone or something when you said it.

For the second example, an HR interview probably isn't the best context, but it definitely makes a difference if you yourself are Argentinian, or even South American.

If you're going to make jokes, it's generally best to make them about yourself or the groups you yourself belong to, in contexts where that belonging is known to your audience.
posted by trig at 3:27 AM on January 27, 2021 [4 favorites]


I'm not sure who will be impressed by these lazy jokes -- I think the potential negatives outweigh the minimal humor. Anyone of the group the joke is directed at, even in good taste, has heard it hundreds of times before. Even if they politely laugh they are groaning internally. I have heard every lazy joke about my home country -- the ratio of funny to lame jokes is maybe 1:200. The few jokes that work are ones which show a deep understanding of the culture and thus show that you invested some time and effort.
posted by benzenedream at 3:39 AM on January 27, 2021 [17 favorites]


There used to be a sitcom in the UK in the late 1970s called "Mind Your Language", which was set in an evening class where an Englishman was trying to teach foreigners to speak English. Pretty much every racial stereotype and trope was in there - the sexy French girl (not a woman in those days), the volatile Italian, the Swedish nymphomaniac, the lazy Greek, the humourless German woman, the Chinese man quoting from the Little Red Book, the bowing Japanese man who said "ah-so" all the time, etc. It's now held out as an example of the very worst kind of racist comedy (although it wasn't by a long stretch the worst that was on TV in the UK in the 1970s - cf. Love Thy Neighbour - ugh!).

So, no, I don't think it's acceptable to make jokes (particularly at a job interview) that perpetuate racial stereotypes. I thought we'd moved on from that.
posted by essexjan at 3:47 AM on January 27, 2021 [16 favorites]


"Do not make jokes about groups other than your own" is a pretty good rule of thumb. I have heaps of privilege along plenty of axes and when someone makes a lazy joke about a group I am a member of that they think is "safe" because they're not punching down, I mentally file them away as not to be trusted on matters of equity or diversity. If you voiced it to me because you thought I was "safe", what are you doing behind the backs of less privileged people? It's kind of like when I get asked about my "interesting" name by other white people. It's a heck of a lot less onerous on me than it is on POC, so better that they limit that impulse to me, I guess, but it tells me something about them.

For the second example, an HR interview probably isn't the best context, but it definitely makes a difference if you yourself are Argentinian, or even South American.

I was coming to say something along these lines. (Honestly trig's probably given a better answer than this will be.) That joke is beyond the pale to me, but, for all I know, it's a super common thing to say in Argentina (by non-expats) and if the person you're talking to shares that context, it's a totally different situation than telling that joke to me. (I am reading this question as you being 'out-group' here. Disparaging comments about your own group in jest are, broadly speaking, going to be in bounds).
posted by hoyland at 3:53 AM on January 27, 2021 [17 favorites]


I see people make "polite Canadian" jokes on this very site all the damn time, and tbh I don't know how Canadian members put up with it.

Making that kind of joke (humour-free Germans etc.) comes across as boorish and unworldly. Whether it'll ruin your professional chances rather depends on what the person you're talking to is like - they may be equally limited in their world views.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:58 AM on January 27, 2021 [9 favorites]


There’s remarkably little to be gained from such jokes.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:07 AM on January 27, 2021 [15 favorites]


I'm Australian.

I can't see a citizen of Britain taking offence at "Brit" any more than I could see an Australian taking offence at "Aussie" or a New Zealander taking offence at "Kiwi". All three are terms in common use and I've never heard any of them used in and of themselves in a disparaging way.

But making jokes about supposed national characteristics? Lazy, tedious and boorish.

"Do not make jokes about groups other than your own" is a pretty good rule of thumb.

I completely agree.

when someone makes a lazy joke about a group I am a member of that they think is "safe" because they're not punching down, I mentally file them away as not to be trusted on matters of equity or diversity.

Agreed again. In fact whenever somebody makes a lazy stereotype-fuelled joke about any group to which they don't themselves belong, then whether or not I'm a member of that group, I experience a strong and instant reduction in my desire to spend time in that person's company.
posted by flabdablet at 4:14 AM on January 27, 2021 [28 favorites]


It was an ex-expat slip of the tongue. I caught myself and said casually,

No it wasn't. It was just a shitty joke, and there is no "ex-pat" hallpass for shitty behaviour.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:57 AM on January 27, 2021 [34 favorites]


Brit isn't in anyway offensive to refer to a British person or Brits for a group of British people. It is definitely informal. Just be very careful that whoever you are referring to are not, in fact, Irish. Because Irish people aren't British and don't want to be considered British.

Lazy stereotype jokes get very old when you are the recipient of them, even if they're not offensive they are super tiresome.

FWIW I don't think your joke was hugely terrible if you are actually Argentinian as then it's self deprecating but I think it was a bad idea to say it. It relies on having a shared stereotype of Argentinians which might not exist for example, it's not a stereotype I'm familiar with, and it feels particularly out of place in an interview when you are supposed to show your best behaviour. Even in a British workplace which can have a lot of banter, we don't use it when we're in an interview. I think the same, but even more so, would be true with a US interviewer as my understanding is that the workplace culture there has less tolerance for that sort of thing. If you are not Argentinian then really not ok, regardless of where you are from.
posted by plonkee at 4:59 AM on January 27, 2021 [5 favorites]


Be aware that the term 'Brit', while generally a neutral term on the island of Great Britain, is a derogatory term in Ireland. I would avoid it for that reason: even if used innocently, it can sound tone deaf.
posted by verstegan at 5:01 AM on January 27, 2021 [3 favorites]


The question to ask yourself is why? Why do you want to be able to make jokes that refer to or rely on stereotypes about people of particular nationalities? The idea of WEIRD populations was developed to point out that human subjects research, especially in the social sciences, drastically overemphasizes western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic countries. It's not about what populations are ok to make fun of and using it this way is problematic at best. Find other ways to bond over humor with other people that don't rely on national stereotypes.
posted by k8lin at 5:04 AM on January 27, 2021 [32 favorites]


As a British-Asian, it can sometimes be a little cathartic to vent with stereotypical swipes against W.E.I.R.D. people when trying to cope with too many 'jokes' about your own ethnicity, made by those people. But only in private, never in an office environment.

Otherwise I would ask myself, a) What are you getting out of telling this joke? and b) Why do you think it's funny? Chances are, the answers will be a) Nothing and b) It's not.
posted by guessthis at 5:07 AM on January 27, 2021 [8 favorites]


I think these jokes can work as in-jokes if you know someone well and know which stereotype actually happens to apply to them — eg I‘m German and sometimes pretty intense/weird, so if my friends joke about that it‘s ok. Not the pinnacle of funny but Ok. If a stranger jokes about humourless Germans that just falls flat and, honestly, tells me they don’t know much about German culture (which is not a big deal but maybe not what you want to project).

In a more superficial setting I think it‘s kind of lame and can even alienate people (if it‘s a stereotype that isn‘t true for them, or, as mentioned, if they‘ve heard it a million times). If you want to be funny, you’ll have to find jokes not based on stereotypes.
posted by The Toad at 5:14 AM on January 27, 2021 [3 favorites]


I will share my opinion by quoting three previous commenters:

Still, even with fair targets, there's always a risk a risk that these sort of jokes fall flat, because they are just not terribly original.

Agreed. Even putting potential problematic-ness aside, these just aren't very good jokes. There is no wit in saying "X group of people is like this, amirite?" Repeating a stereotype ≠ humor.

Plus, this kind of humor is just...passé. It's the sort of thing I remember seeing in those "Truly Tasteless Jokes" paperbacks back in the 80s.

I would find these all pretty lazy stereotypes, even xenophobic in most cases.

Agreed. Any remark which essentializes another culture or ethnic group is best avoided. At best, it will make you look ignorant (because you apparently believe that such generalizations have enough merit to repeat them, even if as a joke).

Even if you don't actually believe in these generalizations, there are plenty of people who do, and who dress up such remarks as "jokes" so they can get away with saying them. So don't be surprised your audience reacts as if you might be one of those people.

I think these jokes can work as in-jokes if you know someone well and know which stereotype actually happens to apply to them

Agreed. I'm straight, white, middle-class American dude, and I crack self-deprecating jokes with friends of a similar background all the time. But those are personal friends, not coworkers or other professional acquaintances.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:35 AM on January 27, 2021 [6 favorites]


If I encounter someone making these jokes with people they don't know, they are making more unpleasant stereotype-based jokes with people they know.
posted by winna at 5:37 AM on January 27, 2021 [8 favorites]


Not at all ok in a professional setting.
Not great in a non-professional setting. Even among friends there’s a likelihood that you’re making someone unhappy.
posted by sciencegeek at 5:47 AM on January 27, 2021 [6 favorites]


I'm Scottish. Call me a ‘Brit’ and I will correct you. You won't do it twice.

Jokes in an interview aren't good, showing a lack of confidence and preparedness. Jokes about a cultural group you don't belong to would be a big old flag for me.
posted by scruss at 6:05 AM on January 27, 2021 [5 favorites]


I’m in the US and would be super taken aback by casual use of negative national behavioral stereotypes, especially in a workplace environment, doubly so where the parties involved don’t know each other extremely well. I would assume that this person was taking the temperature of the room and would get a lot more racist/sexist/etc if I responded positively. I would not hire someone making these statements during an interview, presumably this is their best behavior and they have no idea who in that room has friends or family members of that group. There’s a bit more leeway referring to your in-group, but even then it’s best used very sparingly.
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:13 AM on January 27, 2021 [16 favorites]


I'm in Canada and this would be a serious red flag in a hiring interview. We do anti-harassment training with every new staff member which would explain why jokes like this are not okay, but I don't like to feel like I'm training uphill.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:35 AM on January 27, 2021 [13 favorites]


You appear to be a US citizen living in Argentina. You don't have the same ability to make jokes about Argentinians as someone who is Argentinian.

If a member of my team at work made a similar joke in my hearing or I heard about it from someone, I would be having a word with you about appropriate behaviour.

The Brits thing would not trigger the same issue, unless used in a derogatory way.
posted by knapah at 6:45 AM on January 27, 2021 [5 favorites]


So - there is only one group that is ever acceptable to make fun of, joke about, etc - and that is your own. (And only if you make it clear that you are part of that group)
posted by rozcakj at 6:58 AM on January 27, 2021 [6 favorites]


This is going to sound harsh at first: I think you're a good person who's just not smooth at all. Don't let your awkwardness and uncoolness* overshadow what a lovely and kind person you truly are because it's going to keep people from getting to know you.

I am a norteamericana who has lived in Buenos Aires, in addition to Europe, and understand how Argentina is an amazing and unique place. As you know, CABA is very different from the rest of the country in "good" and "bad" ways, fwiw. I'm still beginning to learn but I'd say I'm ahead of you in understanding the depth thanks to friends and cultural/literature courses at UBA where we go deep. (Oh gosh, learning about the various golpes and struggles during and after, which continue to today, is so sad.) It's an amazing country but times are so very hard. A lot of your colleagues may be sophisticated and educated but they are struggling; you are giving off vibes as a privileged hick. Laugh at their jokes. Ask questions. Compliment the things you like and be understanding when people complain about the hard stuff. Build friendships outside of work with Argentines. Find fellow expats who can relate to your experience and give you a space to complain and ask dumb questions. Try online dating if you're single and interested because that's a cool way to get to know people too. But be aware of your privilege and limitations. Take classes at UBA and elsewhere. Work on becoming fluent in Spanish if you aren't already. Visit other countries in South America to see the differences and similarities when it's possible again. I know from friends and awkward dates that the same comment can be read very differently by someone who's Argentine, Colombian, and Peruvian (all of the same social class.) Of course, people are individuals but rarely do we like to be reduced to a few cultural stereotypes, regardless of where we're coming from.

Making fun of a W.E.I.R.D. situation may seem like modesty to you but it's just a humblebrag to others, a reminder of your casual privilege and their daily struggle to survive. And, yes, rich Argentines are also struggling so don't assume that anyone is protected. *I don't think you're uncool at all, I just think that such statements are painfully awkward without more cultural immersion. You are clearly a kind, conscientious, and curious person and that is enough -- I wish we could have met when I was still in Buenos Aires. No jokes needed, at least not for now! When in doubt, ask questions and you will learn. One day you'll be able to joke more with ease!
posted by smorgasbord at 7:11 AM on January 27, 2021 [6 favorites]


I'm American and I've hired people who would be working internationally.

I would not blink at someone calling British people Brits, but I could see that taking a moment to parse depending on the context - like if you meant "I'll follow up with the team that's based in London" but you just said "I'll speak with the Brits," that might take me a second.

If someone I was interviewing told an ethnic or nationality joke in the middle of their interview, I would blink a lot, and would treat it as a serious red flag.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:11 AM on January 27, 2021 [10 favorites]


I'm "British" (feels weird to say) and we're used to Americans calling us Brits or British. It's usually only Americans who call us that and it's not offensive at all. We don't call ourselves that much though just FYI. We're more likely to say "Welsh", "Scottish" etc. if we ever refer to ourselves at all.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 8:13 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]


Can't speak to hiring practices, but when I hear a person speak this way, with casual stereotyping hither and yon, I assume that they are very ignorant, or very bigoted... or old enough to have come from a world where this sort of thing was treated as "okay", and lazy enough to have never bothered learning that the world has changed since then.

I can't say that this has been a 100% accurate assumption on my part, but then again I can't recall an instance where I was wrong, either. On the other hand... I don't generally stick around long enough for deeper character insights, which is pretty common among people who are immediately put off by another person's expression or presentation.

I mean... you do you, but this is what "me doing me" looks like, and I kinda think maybe I'm not the only one.
posted by WaywardPlane at 8:41 AM on January 27, 2021 [7 favorites]


I mean... you asked,

Is it offensive or unacceptable to joke about White, Industrialized, Educated, Rich & Developed (W.I.E.R.D.) nationality stereotypes?

and there's just so many unnecessary words in there.

Is it offensive or unacceptable to joke about stereotypes? Um, yeah. Yeah, it is, dude.
posted by WaywardPlane at 8:44 AM on January 27, 2021 [8 favorites]


As someone who hires: I would treat the joke as a sign that at best, you are unprofessional and at worst, bigoted. I would not give you the benefit of the doubt and I’ve just interviewed 5 other people who did not make jokes about nationalities.
posted by sugarbomb at 9:02 AM on January 27, 2021 [13 favorites]


The question you asked: Is it offensive or unacceptable to joke about White, Industrialized, Educated, Rich & Developed (W.I.E.R.D.) nationality stereotypes?

That's very context dependent, and others have covered it well.

A potentially more relevant question in your situation: Is it dumb to joke about ANY stereotypes in a JOB INTERVIEW?

Oh my God, yes.
posted by underclocked at 9:49 AM on January 27, 2021 [8 favorites]


Is it offensive or unacceptable to joke about White, Industrialized, Educated, Rich & Developed (W.I.E.R.D.) nationality stereotypes?

No. But unless you are an extremely astute observer it's going to end up as a lazy joke so probably don't.

I have a friend who is such an observer and three months after arriving there could make elaborate and extremely funny jokes about the fine distinctions between people from different parts of city of Aberdeen (not really a big place...) and someone else I know who was making HAHA THEY DO HEROIN IN DUNDEE jokes after living there for years.

Unless you're very sure you're the first guy, better to leave such jokes and not risk being the second. A bit like accents really.

"Brit" is fine, I guess, if you are describing someone who is British but be aware that not everyone even from the island of Great Britain is equally keen on that. This is a super complicated topic because on the one hand it is a more inclusive identity than the ones aligned with the traditional nations but on the other hand many Welsh people and Scots have mixed feelings about the whole project of Britain. (And in both cases there are strong movements which are quietly but definitively reconstructing what in the past were purely ethnic identities into civic nationalist ones - the SNP was a nationalist party in the bad sense of the word in the 1970s and derided as "Tartan Tories" for it but is now a centre-left part of civic nationalism that is committed to a cultural Scottishness that is not linked to ethnic origins). Anyway, no foreigner would really be expected to know all that stuff.

It would read as someone who is American, or alternatively talks in weird tabloid newspaper language. (British tabloids love stories about things happening to "Brits")
posted by atrazine at 10:47 AM on January 27, 2021 [3 favorites]


i'm going to come at this a bit differently. I agree with everyone that these are not acceptable. A lot of people say they're boring and outdone. On the other hand, when you encounter younger or less-traveled people, it has a different effect: you're teaching them racism they previously didn't know. I'd never heard of the stereotype of Argentinians being conceited. I didn't even get your lightning joke. It wasn't until the other jokes that you (carelessly) included did it dawn on me. these jokes need to die. Even the ones "from your own group". Eventually there will people who have never heard these jokes and these stereotypes will die with them
posted by FirstMateKate at 11:42 AM on January 27, 2021 [15 favorites]


Such "jokes" are eye-rolling at best--and that is only when they are told by someone actually within that group. Otherwise this is just unacceptable. They make you seem bigoted and terribly out-of-touch: I would assume you were too old to hire, and I am 67.
posted by uans at 12:18 PM on January 27, 2021 [4 favorites]


Another vote for the main problem is that your joke just wasn't funny- a borderline "dad joke." Generally, I would avoid any joke in a job interview that requires a punch line. I've used humor in interviews to my advantage, but generally only brief phrases- never standard set-up/punch line type jokes.

But as some others have pointed to, the problem isn't so much you made fun of Argentinians (though obviously some will see it that way) but you joke basically boils down to, "Hey isn't it funny that Argentinians are very religious and self-centered?" Which just, neither seems funny nor entirely accurate. I think atrazine's answer brings up an important point, which is that while sure, national/ethnic humor is always going to be risky, it can be well done, but it requires a really sensitive/perceptive eye. To give my own example: for awhile I spent a lot of time with a German friend, who had a number of non-German friends who had traveled/lived in Germany. He (the German), delighted in making fun of the German obsession with following rules, as did his non-German friends. This was fine, and a number of their stories were funny because they were so specific. Sure, the stereotype of the rule-following German is general, but the stereotype wasn't the punchline - the specific examples of their own experiences were the joke. Jokes that rely just a general stereotype alone are just kinda boring/lazy at best, offensive at worst.

As far of the question of "Brits." It's not generally derogatory (though of course, Scottish/Welsh people may not appreciate that label, for sure), but it's a little weird to refer to a group you're professionally collaborating with by their nationality. It suggests you seem them less as individuals, and more by their nationality. Say they got upset about something- if you said "Oh the Brits are unhappy about x" as opposed to "The [name of group] are upset about x" the first implies that their being "upset" has to do with being British, rather than their needs/desires of their group.

Neither of these would make me think you were a bad person or were xenophobic, but I would maybe regard you as someone who wasn't the most perceptive/nuanced in your thinking.
posted by coffeecat at 12:34 PM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]


Long time ago, I had a talk with a guy who worked in data processing at the UN in NYC. He had coworkers from all over the globe, and he said the social atmosphere was edgier than in a US company because you never knew when someone was going to take offense at something you said.
posted by SemiSalt at 1:32 PM on January 27, 2021


Eh, as a person of Polish descent you have my blessing to make any kind of joke you want about Poles and WEIRDs in general. It is a little hacky but if you can find a way to make it funny more power to you. Maybe...not in a job interview, though.
posted by zeusianfog at 3:54 PM on January 27, 2021


Response by poster: OP, here. I think that yes, at best the joke showed poor judgment and lack of self-awareness. *cringe*

I got the rejection email today and I was pretty confident I would get to the second of the third round and I didn't.

And to the Polish gentlemen that said he'd not be offended about Polish jokes, I don't know if you've heard the kind of jokes that used to be told in the USA in the later 80s. Pretty offensive stuff. I almost made a comment that I wasn't asking about anything like Polish jokes because that seemed pretty obviously offensive.
posted by Che boludo! at 8:29 PM on January 27, 2021


i haven't examined every comment, but i see at least one fellow scot point out that "brits" or whatever pejorative is your want is just lazy and kinda just wrong. for example a favorite thing for americans to discuss are "british accents," when quite clearly such conversations are more often than not discussions of a very narrow and particular type of english accent (harry potter anyone?). there is no such thing as a "british accent." one can argue there is RP or a "BBC accent" but they're not really accents they're more a way of speaking/pronunciation (sometimes masking the speaker's actual accent). and most americans would not say i have a british accent, because my accent is scottish, and usually if it's misidentified it's assumed to be irish. but i don't recall anyone calling it british and/or english. but my english friends living in the US will more often than not have their accents referred to as british, not english!

let's cut to the chase here: britain is a construct, it's not a country, and never has been. it's a nation state (hopefully not for much longer haha). england is a country, but so is scotland, wales, and ireland. out of these england has understandably always been the dominant and outsized entity. which means that britain is often a shorthand for england (more often than not an oversight committed by the english themselves).

it's extremely rare to ever hear britain used correctly e.g. a passport is british, sterling is the british currency, britain has an olympic team, boris johnson is the current british prime minister.
posted by iboxifoo at 8:38 PM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]


let's cut to the chase here: britain is a construct, it's not a country, and never has been. it's a nation state (hopefully not for much longer haha). england is a country, but so is scotland, wales, and ireland. out of these england has understandably always been the dominant and outsized entity. which means that britain is often a shorthand for england (more often than not an oversight committed by the english themselves).

It's more complicated than that. All countries are constructs.

People naturally have multiple geographic identities at different levels of granularity. Someone might feel themselves to be British, Scottish, from Edinburgh, and even from a specific part of the city. The question is where is they put the primary nexus of their identity? When that place diverges from how political power is actually divided, national breakup becomes inevitable.

I think very few of my Scots friends would put their Edinburghian identity before their Scottish one but a real majority would put their Scottish identity before their British one. It's been centuries since any substantial number of mainland Scots would put their local identities above their Scottish one so the idea of a Western Isles separatist movement is ridiculous in a way that a Shetland separatist movement (which will also never happen though) is not. Similarly, is Cornwall part of England? Yes, and Cornish separatism is an irrelevant ultra-minority hobby but that was not always true.

Anyway, I agree about what is going to happen. The only two possible outcomes now are a very loose federation agreement or total de jure independence (I'm sure we have all learned from 2016 that the degree of de facto independence of any country depends on its power relative to its neighbours) with the latter being increasingly likely. Just wanted to point out that no country has an absolute and unchanging identity as either definitely a country or definitely not a country.
posted by atrazine at 3:19 AM on January 28, 2021


From the OP: And to the Polish gentlemen that said he'd not be offended about Polish jokes, I don't know if you've heard the kind of jokes that used to be told in the USA in the later 80s. Pretty offensive stuff. I almost made a comment that I wasn't asking about anything like Polish jokes because that seemed pretty obviously offensive.

I recommend that you think about why you feel that 1980s Polish jokes are "obviously offensive," but you're having trouble seeing the jokes you made in the interview in the same light.

Any joke that's made where you're saying 'all [x] people do [z action]' is going to sound tone-deaf and ignorant. Whether the subject is a race, a nationality, a hair color, or city that people live in. There's so much more in the world of comedy and being witty. Time to move into the 21st century.
posted by hydra77 at 2:35 PM on January 28, 2021 [3 favorites]


As soon as I hear "Did you hear the one about..." I get tense.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:43 PM on January 28, 2021


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