Back off!

January 17, 2021 1:29 PM

FIL is giving his bereaved nephew a hard time with his anxiety...any advice for my husband?

My husband's cousin, Jack, lived with his mother his whole life. She recently died when he was 52 (yeah, their relationship is another story...). Jack and my husband are close, they phone every other day.

Recently, Jack started complaining that after the death his uncle, (my father in law, the brother of the deceased), has begun calling him every day to give him advice. He treats him as incapable of survival. FIL is a fixer-of-problems by nature, also generous - it's his love language. But this is excessive. He calls him about which vitamins he should be taking. About installing a security lock on his door now that he lives alone. About eating right. That he needs to install a new kitchen. How to not live above his means. About every freaking thing. Jack is completely capable of taking care of his own shit and has managed all the paperwork after his mother's death extremely well.

Jack has patience and has always been treated as incapable by his own mother, so it took some time for him to draw a boundary. He's an avoidant guy. But now he has stopped returning FIL's calls (good for him).

FIL has started blowing up my husband's phone instead, freaking out with worry about this. He's all alone! What if he catches COVID? What if he spends his money unwisely? Why is he not returning calls? SOMETHING MUST BE WRONG.

My husband managed to get through to him that Jack needs some peace and quiet to grieve and that we can all trust Jack to not do anything stupid and maybe just lay off for a while and let Jack call when he's ready to call. FIL agreed and said he felt better for the conversation. ("But he could have just told me he wanted me to back off!" Er, no, that would not have gone well.)

The very next day FIL calls us again: "But what if he spends all his money on stupid stuff?? You need to warn him when you talk to him! Or do you think I should call him??"

My husband doesn't know what to do. His father seems to understand but gets so extremely anxious? It's unusual behaviour, even for him. My husband is getting really annoyed because FIL treats Jack like an idiot. I suspect FIL is full of anxiety about COVID, plus his sister died, so maybe he's fixating on this to exert some control over something?

Anyway, asking for my husband, what is the best, kindest to everyone way to react when FIL obsesses about Jack? Should he just repeat what he's been saying so far? Should he get more direct?

FIL is really bad about recognising and talking about feelings, particularly his own feelings, and also bad at abstracting.

posted by Omnomnom to Human Relations (15 answers total)

Was FIL close to his sister? Can this be anxiety related to grief and channeling it via making sure his sister's son is okay? Sometimes, when people die, you think about death and how it can occur to anyone at any time, so that anxiety gets directed at either oneself or other people in your general area.

Maybe you could gently suggest to FIL that his need to call Jack all the time is a way of reconnecting with his sister and preventing future tragedy, but might be best left to a sort of ceremony of sorts? Some sort of way of grieving her that doesn't focus on Jack? Or just ask how he is doing in general?

Grief is weird, it affects people in different ways, so this is probably how FIL is expressing his (doesn't help Jack, I know). Maybe you could ask FIL why he is so anxious about Jack and what he needs for reassurance, or give him space to talk about family feelings, because in this time, there isn't a group of people gathering after a death where we can all hug each other and tell stories. That may be what he is missing.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 1:49 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]

I'd approach it with a focus on FIL's anxiety: it's hard to watch other people make mistakes, isn't it? And it's very human to get caught up in worries about the mistakes other people might make, especially if you've made similar mistakes, or people you love have made those mistakes. And, if you're in that position, it can feel like the solution is to give advice to try to spare the other person the pain or cost of potential mistakes. So I think I understand where you're coming from and why you're so troubled. And at the same time, your worries don't give you authority over Jack's life and decisions. What you're doing is going to push Jack away, without giving you any relief from the anxiety you're feeling. I'm not going to call Jack to repeat your advice, and you should stop as well. The way to soothe these worries you're feeling is to let yourself feel them and find some coping mechanisms that help you get through, not to repeat the advice you've already given, that isn't welcome. Would you like to hear about what I do when I feel anxious?

(The last piece is a little bit of a trick question--if he's not interested in hearing some advice, that's a great moment to point out, "OK, I'm going to respect your wish not to hear my advice, and encourage you to consider how likely you'd be to follow it if I just went ahead and told you--you know, the way you're doing with Jack?")
posted by theotherdurassister at 1:49 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Was FIL close to his sister? Can this be anxiety related to grief and channeling it via making sure his sister's son is okay?

That's very possible. FIL always felt it was his job to take care of his older sister. (She always ignored him when he became too overbearing.)
posted by Omnomnom at 1:56 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]

Should he just repeat what he's been saying so far?

I think so, you can't make people do what you want, basically. Grief makes people sometimes act oddly or sometimes it can magnify existing issues. Jack has done a great job just stopping taking those calls. Now your husband needs to basically do the same thing, in one of a few ways (my suggestions)

- "Hey I hear you about Jack but I can't really be your sounding board about this so we're going to need to stop talking about Jack, okay?" And then if your FIL starts talking about Jack again, politely repeat and/or end the conversation.
- "Hey this has been hard for everyone. I think you may need to find someone to talk to who can be a better sounding board about Jack. That person is not me because I am also going through some of this. So maybe your (therapist/priest/fishing buddy/I don't know) could be a good person to check in with?"
- "You really sound upset about this. I know this is all pretty difficult. But we've both got to let Jack make his own decisions and I promise I'll help him if he makes a mistake? OK? End of Jack topics for now, I can't help any more than I have and you're sounding really bent out of shape about this and if you can't let it go I'm going to have to start suggesting that you seek mental health treatment" *or something. I mean don't threaten the guy but this anxiety response really is something that a trained professional and.or medication might be able to help with, and it's fine for your husband to say that HE isn't the person who should be impromptu therapy here.

But honestly, you can't make him change, though you can go what i call "Loving broken record" on him and just repeat "Dad, I love you, but I'm not going to talk to you about Jack right now." and then back that up by not doing it. I'm sorry it's really hard right now and my sympathies for your loss.
posted by jessamyn at 2:06 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]

I guess then my answer would be that anxiety doesn't always follow what other people would see as normal patterns. It's more like a scab that you pick at that heals, until you skin your knee again and then it's a fresh wound, which of course takes a longer time to heal. Sorry for the visual. Except that other people can't see it.

The best thing you could say is, hey, this above and beyond what you need to be doing right now. I get that you're anxious and just lost your sister/my Aunt. What can I do to help you right now? Do you want to contribute to her headstone? You know she liked cats, and wanted people to donate to XYZ cat shelter, right? Or, she loved you very much and we all know that, I'm so sorry for what you are going through. As I said, give him some space to talk about his feelings, without Jack involved.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:10 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]

I think it's worth one frank conversation with your (his, I mean - sorry) dad to point out he's badly damaging his relationship with Jack, who is an adult and does not need to be told these things by him OR by you and is also free to fuck up his life however he chooses, but could actually benefit from caring non-advice-giving supportive family right now. If Jack wants advice, he will ask. If Dad cannot tolerate associating with Jack because of the anxiety, his choices are stop associating or treat the anxiety.

I also think you should flat-out use the phrase "life-impacting anxiety" and suggest he discuss it in a telehealth appointment with his doctor, because as awful as it is for Jack (or you) to have to hear it once a day, it cannot possibly be healthy or enjoyable to experience it all day. That's the kind of stress that severely impacts health.

I think children are in some cases uniquely positioned to be the push-back/reality check older adults may not be able to obtain anywhere else. It may have a long tail - you may say it today and then hear it explained back to you two months from now as if it was his own idea, but whatever gets the job done. You shouldn't try to win this in any way because pursuing it too far also won't do any of you any good, but at least make one attempt to make this better for both Jack and your dad and then set whatever boundaries you need to.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:30 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]

I suspect FIL is full of anxiety about COVID, plus his sister died, so maybe he's fixating on this to exert some control over something?

Yep, I was totally winding up to say this until I got to this paragraph.

Anyway, asking for my husband, what is the best, kindest to everyone way to react when FIL obsesses about Jack? Should he just repeat what he's been saying so far? Should he get more direct?

Biggest net kindness if it works, by avoiding further long agonizing deterioration of relationships and spoon supply: strategically, over a completely justified issue where FIL is being unreasonable and controlling, Jack should explode in anger. Especially if it would be totally out of character for him. The point would be to get into FIL's amygdala, to make him feel a slight intuition of danger whenever he goes to smother Jack again, even if Jack subsequently accepts some of it with as much patience as usual.

(I'm assuming that, since it sounds like FIL and Jack don't live in the same place, Jack can do this without creating any personal/domestic violence type peril.)
posted by XMLicious at 2:34 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: I'm sorry, I don't want to be obstructive and I think FIL would absolutely benefit from therapy. But he has a deep distrust of therapists and talking about feelings. (He blames a therapist for not preventing another nephew's suicide 30 years ago.)

So while we can work in a suggestion, I have doubts about it doing any good.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:37 PM on January 17, 2021

FIL may feel not just anxiety but an obligation to his sister to watch out for her boy in way that he didn't feel when she was alive.

Since Jack and your husband are close, I think your husband can realistically reassure his father t "Jack is fine. If he stops being fine, I will know. If he needs our help, we are all here for him but for now he is fine."

Don't get into the details just be reassuring and then change the subject, preferably back to your Dad. If he goes back to Jack then repeat the reassurance and be more clear about wanting to talk about something else. Get more firm as needed. Your husband is doing Jack a favor by taking the force of his father's anxiety. Hopeful with his reassurance, his father will be able to calm down for everyone's sake.
posted by metahawk at 2:37 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]

Just continue to be re-assuring until the message gets through. I recently helped a family member through a similar stressful situation with a couple of other family members. The one who I was helping just really needed to hear that everything was actually ok and there were a lot of good reasons not to worry. I was happy to repeat the message as much as was necessary because that was how I could help and it wasn't even difficult. It worked & I recommend it. I don't even recommend changing the subject, because that's just asking them to stop showing you their infected wound when you should be putting medicine on it. Just be a broken record.
posted by bleep at 3:31 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]

Why don't you ask your FIL, quite literally, 'what would it take to stop you worrying?' Let him reflect on that - is it going to be ended by him gaining faith in Jack's abilities - and if so what would make that happen? Is that not enough (which would be a path to explore further to work out why)? Or is he not actually worrying at all, and this is something else?
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 5:54 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]

So uncle's sister, for whom he always felt responsible, just died. And another nephew died by suicide.

I think it's obvious that FIL's anxiety isn't about his perceptions of Jack's competence. There's a terrible tape playing in his head where he projects all his grief about his sister onto Jack, and then it's compounded by worry that if he, FIL, fails to guide and help sufficiently, then Jack may also fall prey to despair.

If Jack were asking for my advice, my advice would be to CALL FIL often, on Jack's own preferred time and own terms. (If you haven't been the subject of anxious calls from a lonely, elderly parent figure, then trust me: this is much much better than waiting for the phone to ring.) Call FIL on bluetooth when he's in the car or taking a walk or washing the dishes or sweeping the garage. Ask how FIL is; tell him quotidian anecdotes about the day. Not only will this contact assuage FIL's free-floating anxiety, but he'll actually find that when Jack himself is the one calling, when he (FIL) would maybe rather have been doing something else... he'll find it isn't necessary to talk quite so much.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:13 PM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]

I came in to say that this is all about FIL's grief messing with his worldview, as a couple of people have said further up, and the fact that your FIL has previously lost a nephew to suicide must make this even more complicated. However, according to the ring theory one ought to get support from people more distant from the pain, and right now FIL is putting the burden of his grief on the most severely afflicted person. This should not continue.

I recognise this pattern - after my mother died, my aunt and uncle fixated on my grandfather (their father) in a similar way, and tried to enlist my sisters and I (women in our twenties who had spent the last year caring for a mother with cancer) to check in on him "every couple of days" (!!!) to make sure he was coping OK, and that we would not lose touch since Mum was gone. Ultimately we were quite direct about the fact that we did not have the capacity for this, and they backed off - which is what makes me think XMLicious' suggestion that Jack should blow up at FIL may a good one - but this relies on FIL having at least a modicum of self-awareness, so is not without risk. I also agree with Lyn Never's approach, that your husband could be direct with his father that he is damaging his relationship with Jack, and perhaps also that the way he is working out his own anxiety is falling most heavily on the person who is already suffering the most.
posted by Cheese Monster at 9:56 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]

OK kind of hid the lead there with the information another nephew committing suicide. As an Aunt I can tell you, you could not love your nieces & nephews more if they were your own kids. Not only is he grieving the loss of his sister, I am willing to bet he is also now terrified he's going to lose another nephew. If he's not great at feelings & expressing them, then to FIL grief & depression may well seem to similar for him not to worried sick.

Having said that, I agree he's not expressing it well. How is FIL at social media and messaging? Could he message daily instead of call, give nephew some space to answer in his own time but still keep that thread of contact that might help FIL feel better.
posted by wwax at 9:14 AM on January 18, 2021

So, FIL felt responsible for his sister, Jack’s mother. Jack lived with his mother his entire life until her death when he was well into middle age. Jack’s mother always treated him as though he were incapable. Is it really a surprise that FIL probably feels like Jack isn’t that capable of managing his life and affairs, that he’s transferred that sense of responsibility onto Jack and is trying to help him out of what seems like good intentions?

I guess my first question would be whether FIL might have good reason to have this level of concern about Jack, considering that most people have some thirty years’ experience looking after themselves by their 52nd birthday whereas Jack seems to have had none. If Jack’s mother has been managing the house, paying the bills, taking care of the finances, making dietary decisions, reminding Jack to take his vitamins, etc. all these years, it’s not absurd for FIL to have worries. Now, maybe he’s wrong and Jack is fully capable. But this strikes me as no less a big deal — and maybe more so — than if Jack’s mother had died when he was 22 and all these things had devolved upon him then. All of which is to say that maybe Step 1 is to give FIL a bit of a break about his anxiety.

One possible avenue would for your husband to remind his father that he and Jack are in regular communication multiple times a week and that if any issues arise or if Jack needs advice, he would find out about it quickly and would be in a position to assist/advise Jack or, if necessary, would loop him in so they could both assist/advise Jack. If he could reassure his father that he’s on top of things with Jack, it might help alleviate his father’s anxiety about Jack. Most likely this will pass or at least significantly lessen with time, especially as Jack demonstrates his capabilities. In the meantime, probably the best, kindest things your husband can do are (a) serve as a buffer between Jack and his father, (b) remain in regular communication with Jack, and (c) continue to sympathize with his father’s anxiety and reassure him that everything is and will be okay. These things can be annoying, frustrating and time-consuming, but that’s how things work out sometimes. I don’t really see any other way of getting your FIL to back off from both Jack and your husband without being unkind.
posted by slkinsey at 9:17 AM on January 18, 2021 [1 favorite]