How do I get the guy?
March 23, 2006 12:06 PM   Subscribe

How do I win the guy I want without being a homewrecker? (more)

I'm a 24 yr. old woman. I have had several relationships with men in my life usually lasting about 4-5 months. All of them ended amicably for various reasons. One reason I feel that I have never had a long term relationship is because I have never been the one to pick out the man. They have always approached me. I know I have let some good ones slip by because I was too shy/scared to approach them.

Okay. So I started a new job about 8 months ago. From the get-go I hit it off with a co-worker of mine. I knew at the beginning that he was living with a woman he's been with for 6 years. They are not engaged/married/parents. I thought we could be friends because we share a lot of interests. (Naive, I know.) In the last 8 months our relationship has progressed and although we have not done anything of a physical nature, I feel like the emotional affair has already started. I realized we were crossing some kind of like when he stopped at my house the other day on his anniversary. I don't see their relationship going to the altar. I am not the type of woman that wants to come between a couple but I am falling in love for the first time with this man. I know all the warnings about dating co-workers. It would be easy for me to transfer to another office so that part isn't so scary. My question is what should I do?? Wait for his current relationship to end? We have discussed his relationship but not so much ours. I don't think he would cheat on her and I wouldn't want to start a relationship with him like that. Is it too late already? Guys, I need to win the guy I want for once. How do I do this and keep a clean conscience? Am I feeling guilty for nothing? (I was raised Catholic- guilt is a way of life.) Your advice/suggestions are much appreciated.
posted by smeater44 to Human Relations (64 answers total)
 
My view? If he's not engaged or married, he's fair game. The whole reason that people don't get married is, generally, because one or both parties doesn't want to commit to the relationship. And they don't want to commit because... well, because someone like you might come along one day.

Just don't make your move until after he ends his current relationship and, so far as I can see from what you've said, your hands will be clean.

Note that your clean conscience will not necessarily ease the pain and guilt for him in any way. That may become an issue in your relationship, at least early on. Such is life.
posted by gd779 at 12:13 PM on March 23, 2006


A couple things: For my own life, I absolutely refuse to get involved with attached men. Either he's going to cheat on the GF, which means he's just as likely to cheat on you in the future; or he's just rather an unreliable boyfriend, since (assuming you two do end up together) he's treating his current girlfriend like shit in the pursuit of you, rather than honorably ending things with her.

Others will probably chime in with their stories of great relationships starting the way you'd like yours to, and I'm sure there are cases where it does work, but from my own experience, I'd back away.

More importantly: You say you've always been passive in relationships, not going after what you want, and you want to change that. Couldn't this still be the exact same thing -- you're not "going after what you want," you're pining for an unavailable guy, which conveniently puts a barrier between you and what you want, which gives you myriad reasons for *not* pursuing what you want or justifications for when/if it doesn't work. I'm not sure this a healthy situation for progressing with your goals.
posted by occhiblu at 12:13 PM on March 23, 2006 [1 favorite]


Well wait a minute, which is it:

I am not the type of woman that wants to come between a couple...

or:

Guys, I need to win the guy I want for once.

If you want to 'win' go for it, if you don't want to come between them, then don't go for it.
posted by delmoi at 12:14 PM on March 23, 2006


A couple things: For my own life, I absolutely refuse to get involved with attached men. Either he's going to cheat on the GF, which means he's just as likely to cheat on you in the future; or he's just rather an unreliable boyfriend, since (assuming you two do end up together) he's treating his current girlfriend like shit in the pursuit of you, rather than honorably ending things with her.


This is absolutely what I was going to say. If he does cheat on her, or wants to, with you, then he's just as likely to do it to you down the road.
posted by agregoli at 12:17 PM on March 23, 2006


What would worry me, personally is that since you're other relationships were short and apparently somewhat casual in nature, whether you really want to break up a long term relationship for something that might not last very long.

But how does he feel about his relationship? Is does he feel like he's stuck? How is it going? You could consider yourself a 'catalyst' that help break up a dead-end relationship.

If you're primary goal is to feel OK about what you're doing, I think the best thing is to think of it that way. Probably the guy is just to lazy to break things off without someone else to go to.
posted by delmoi at 12:19 PM on March 23, 2006


If you feel like there's something going on that's wrong, listen to that feeling.

One day, maybe you'll be the other woman. The one without the commitment or kids while your boyfriend gets friendly and emotionally involved with a coworker. I'd say leave it alone, but you've already tripped up. You know what you want to do and you just want to hear that it's okay. It's not.

Nothing good can or will come from this.
posted by letterneversent at 12:19 PM on March 23, 2006


I would also ask whether you want to deal with a guy, no matter how great, who would be *just* out of a six-year live-in relationship. I'm suspicious of people who can process anything that quickly -- because it generally means they're not processing anything.
posted by occhiblu at 12:19 PM on March 23, 2006


I realized we were crossing some kind of like when he stopped at my house the other day on his anniversary.

"we"?

You should talk. It's possible you are merely some extra leverage in some complex (or not so complex) emotional tussle or dominance struggle between him and his partner. He may or may not be consciously aware of this.
posted by meehawl at 12:19 PM on March 23, 2006


This is absolutely what I was going to say. If he does cheat on her, or wants to, with you, then he's just as likely to do it to you down the road.

But who cares? I don't thinks she's really thinking long term here.
posted by delmoi at 12:21 PM on March 23, 2006


I would also ask whether you want to deal with a guy, no matter how great, who would be *just* out of a six-year live-in relationship. I'm suspicious of people who can process anything that quickly -- because it generally means they're not processing anything.

Well, she absolutely will be the 'rebound' relationship. It won't make a solid foundation, but it might be fun.
posted by delmoi at 12:22 PM on March 23, 2006


One reason I feel that I have never had a long term relationship is because I have never been the one to pick out the man. They have always approached me. I know I have let some good ones slip by because I was too shy/scared to approach them.

She *is* thinking long-term. She's thinking that this guy will break her streak.
posted by occhiblu at 12:22 PM on March 23, 2006


He is already cheating emotionally (emotional lapse of few weeks maybe o.k... but 8 month is definately cheating...((emotionally))< -- which sometimes is actually worse than physical to some people)br>
If you already felt that there is something between you and him... chances are he already knew that too...

It is nice that you don't want to be a homewrecker or sort.... but the guy is already looking flakey at best...

1. he lives with a woman for 6 years with out any official commitment.

2. he flurts with you (don't matter what you call it .. it is called flurt) while he is in that kind of live in relationship.< ---where they are likly sharing financial, physical, and emotional commitmmentsbr>
If you and him wants to be anything close to serious relationship (i.e. dating to lead to marriage)
He should end the other relationship...

But to be honest.... pass this one....
No matter what a wonderful, understanding, karismatic, thoughtful guy this one maybe..... he failed already on most important things--->trust and commitment
posted by curiousleo at 12:22 PM on March 23, 2006


Also, while I think this is a bad situation, I don't think there's any cause for you to feel guilty. *He* is the one in the presumably committed relationship, not you. I don't think you should say no because otherwise you'd be guilty of something, I think you should say no because every indication is that it's not going to give you what you need.
posted by occhiblu at 12:26 PM on March 23, 2006 [1 favorite]


Nothing good can or will come from this.

That's a little melodramatic, don't you think? There are a lot of worse things in the world then having your feelings hurt in a relationship. Smeater44's 24 years old, and it dosn't look like she's looking for a lasting commitment from this guy, just another 4-5 month fling. If that's the case, I say go for it.

You might be helping to get this guy un-stuck from a rut.

Talk to him about where he is in his life and see if that's the case. If it is, go for it. But this won't be a good way to start a long term relationship.
posted by delmoi at 12:27 PM on March 23, 2006


curiousleo: Just a heads up, you should not use '&lt' to mark off sections in a comment, use "&lt;" instead.
posted by delmoi at 12:30 PM on March 23, 2006


All is fair in love and war

But, yes, you'd sort of be a homewrecker
posted by poppo at 12:44 PM on March 23, 2006


"That's a little melodramatic, don't you think?"

No, relationships are serious and have serious consequences. Bad beginnings are bad beginnings. I would consider why she is even interested in someone who is clearly involved. That and the short length of her relationships = warning bells ringing.

"You might be helping to get this guy un-stuck from a rut. "

Let's be real. You don't want a guy who needs to be kicked out of his rut. You'll be trying to get him unstuck for as long as he's around. On the other hand, people who go after guys like this might be attracted to that emotional unavailability and failure to commit.
posted by letterneversent at 12:52 PM on March 23, 2006


This isn't the time to win the guy you want for once. You're 24--there will be more, I assure you. You get better at this and there is no "the one." So just back off slowly and start looking around. Seek out the shy guys to ask out--the non-shy one's will have already asked you out if you are interested.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:01 PM on March 23, 2006


Compare and contrast:

I don't think there's any cause for you to feel guilty.
vs
I was raised Catholic- guilt is a way of life.

It seems to me that the OP defines a great part of themselves in relation to guilt, or the sensation of guilt.

That's a powerful motivator and enabler of a particular and peculiar set of distinctive sexual relations. Guilt can be spicy. Just like illicit work affairs, or being the "cause" of a break-up.
posted by meehawl at 1:19 PM on March 23, 2006


One thing to consider is his perspective re: his satisfaction with his current relationship.

I was in a situation somewhat similar to his once, in that I was in a long-term, live-in relationship (although we were semi-engaged), and I became friends with a man who was interested in me (he's analogous to you), and I ended up questioning and breaking off my LT relationship.

However -- and a big however from your POV -- the chemistry with the "other man" was strongly enhanced by my long-standing dissatisfaction with and uncertainty about my LT beau. The "other man" was really only acting as a catalyst to make me realize that I did not want to spend the rest of my life with the man I was with.

The outcome was this: "other man" and I had a falling out because he was pressuring me to leave my boyfriend and take up with him -- which I was completely not interested in doing. I knew that I had to assess my relationship on its own merits, as if "other man" wasn't in the picture. Soon enough, he wasn't; "other man" and I parted ways. I did break up with my boyfriend a few months later, but "other man" never knew that, nor did I look him up to let him know.

My point is that fantasies of your flame leaving his girlfriend to be with you may be just that -- fantasy. What needs to happen is that he comes to the decision to break up with her WITHOUT REGARD TO YOU or a potential relationship with you.

I agree with occhiblu that you have no reason to feel guilty just yet. But be sure to think about how active a role you want to take in helping your guy see the light, especially in the context of your desires to "win the guy" or take a more active role in your romantic life.
posted by tentacle at 1:24 PM on March 23, 2006


One reason I feel that I have never had a long term relationship is because I have never been the one to pick out the man. They have always approached me. I know I have let some good ones slip by because I was too shy/scared to approach them.
The fact that you're conscious of the need to break your old patterns is good. Proactively seeking out your own partners with this in mind is a good way to accomplish this. (Also, women who initiate the relationship are so... friggin... hot...) In essence, you want to push your personal boundaries and that's great, but pushing boundaries is hard.

This guy sounds like the easy way out. Semantically you'd be the one doing the "approaching" but that's only because he's too chickenshit to end his current relationship. The truth is: This is just another relationship that you've fallen into.

Don't fall. Seek.

The way you'll know that you're seeking is because it will be totally contrary to your nature. It will feel awkward and exhausting, but, hopefully, you will soldier on because it will be exhilarating. When I went through this phase, I kept repeating to my old friend, "I feel like I'm living without a script."

The way that you'll know that you've found is that you will be continue to push your personal boundaries in all realms (not just dating!) and you'll be with someone who makes you feel safe during this exploration, and yet, this someone will also let you feel at home when you rest from exploration and be yourself.

Anyhoo, that's my advice learned from my (ongoing) struggle with social anxiety/depression/guilt.
posted by Skwirl at 1:26 PM on March 23, 2006


I've been in this situation, actually. Here's what happened:

At my last job (I just switched jobs about 8 months ago) a new team of software trainers was brought in to teach the application I was helping to develop. They were all a few years younger than me (think 23-25) and the three women on the team were engaged.

Two of the women broke up with their fiances during the course of employment. The long distance was hard, sure, but it was also a coming of age thing...these women were in their first professional job and hanging out with other professionals. They got to be on their own, away from their fiances, for the first time.

This story concerns the third woman, who stayed with her fiance. That is, until July a few years ago. I IM'd her and started up a conversation. I knew from our mutual friends that she had been engaged for 5 years at this point and was not in a terribly happy relationship. Well, it wasn't unhappy, but it wasn't passionate and it wasn't going anywhere. She had been with the guy for two years before getting engaged, so she was with him for 7 years.

This guy was a retard. He bought land from his parents (next door to them) and got a mortgage on a trailer...without even consulting her. He used to go bowling with his friends twice a week and she wasn't allowed to go out unless he went with her.

So I said "fuck it" and started talking to her, even though I usually dont fuck with another man's woman. It started innocently enough..we talked about what we had in common (everything) and I told her about the adventurous life I've lead so far (travel, military, previous marriage, fatherhood, college, etc.) and we grew close.

It was at this point that I realized that we liked each other and frankly, we were at the point you probably are at.

In fact, we were definitely there. She lived with him for years, shared bank accounts and cars and a house. So what to do?

One night it came out that we really liked each other. Fucking Cupid or Aphrodite inspired me and I was smooth unlike any other time I've been in my life. She melted and told me she wished we could be together. I called her up and we talked (idiot boyfriend was out with his friends). We talked all the time for a few weeks whenever she got the chance, and basically it came down to the fact that we needed to move into a real relationship.

I told her I'm not gonna be the other man. She needed to break it off and I was gonna be there for her. I talked her through getting her own bank account and depositing money into it without telling him. I helped her change her mailing address to a PO Box. I helped her separate her life from his.

She moved out one day while he was at work. With a friend's help she was able to do it. I believe he came home while they were almost done. He was devastated, as one could imagine. He was knocked completely off guard, but looking back realizes he shouldn't have been.

The next few weeks were cautious. The weekend after she moved out and broke it off we finally went out on a date. It went well. :)

She visited her parents the next weekend out of town. He followed her. He brandished a gun and threatened to kill himself. I told her that I loved her, didn't want to see her hurt, and that I'd be the strength that she needed to get through this.

It's two years later. We just got married on March 12th. We're going to have kids next year. We're going to go around the world on our honeymoon.

I don't deserve how excellent my life is, and it's all because of her (and my daughter, honestly). She's my perfect match, but we'd never be together if I hadn't worked up the courage to help demolish something that was structurally unsound.

You need to talk to this man honestly. You need to know if this is what he wants for real. I don't think you'll be a rebound relationship, but you've gotta give yourself plenty of time to make sure that you aren't. I don't want to see you give up on this because sometimes it's just too important. If it's worth it, you'll be a homewrecker, but you'll have to be content knowing it wasn't a home worth living in.
posted by taumeson at 1:29 PM on March 23, 2006


No, relationships are serious and have serious consequences. Bad beginnings are bad beginnings.

Oh please, not all relationships have to be serious. If her previous ones ended "amicably" then neither party was really that deep in love.

Let's be real. You don't want a guy who needs to be kicked out of his rut.

No, what she wants is this guy. The question is whether he needs to be kicked out of his rut or not. The question isn't really "Is this a good idea" it's more "how can I do this without feeling guilty." It may be a bad idea but the worst thing that happens is that she'll have her feelings hurt, maybe the other people too but if their relationship is going nowhere maybe it's better to pull the plug, rip off the bandage.

You have to take risks some times, I say lighten up and have fun.
posted by delmoi at 1:29 PM on March 23, 2006


I am not the type of woman that wants to come between a couple but I am falling in love for the first time with this man.

Simple is best. Tell him you're growing feelings for him that go beyond friendship and you aren't willing to get yourself hurt unnecessarily. Then stop associating with him in that way. If he wants to straighten out his own crap he can approach you about it. Perhaps he will. It's not worth causing yourself or this other woman heartache over it if not, however.
posted by phearlez at 1:31 PM on March 23, 2006


delmoi, you're not reading her question. She's not looking for a fun fling. She's looking for a long-term relationship.
posted by occhiblu at 1:32 PM on March 23, 2006


delmoi, you're not reading her question. She's not looking for a fun fling. She's looking for a long-term relationship.

Hmm, I suppose it could be read that way, but it's a little ambiguous. It would be nice if the asker could clarify her situation.
posted by delmoi at 1:37 PM on March 23, 2006


There's a lot of good advice here. I agree. Like occhiblu, I make sure never to go for people who aren't single.

Many cliches apply here: If they leave their girl for you, they will leave you for someone else. Once a cheater, always a cheater. If he's with someone else, he's just not that into you.

Also, you say: I don't see their relationship going to the altar.

That's not for you to say. And it's not really relevant. He's with her now--no matter how long or short they've been together, and no matter how much longer it lasts, he's with her now. I don't think he's waiting for you to give him a sign he should leave his live-in girlfriend of six years. And if he is....ew.

You're so hestitant about it anyway. Plus even if you were gung-ho it wouldn't be such a good idea for countless reasons. It doesn't seem like the right candidate for your first try at being the agent in a relationship. But you have no reason to feel guilt. You haven't done anything wrong and you have no loyalty to his girl. My best advice is to enjoy the flirting and the fantasy element of it, use that in your next fling (or...time alone...) and if by chance you're both single at the same time in the future, go for it.

But in general, with single men, you should break out of your shell and go for it! (As far as trying to be less passive). It's liberating to kiss a guy before he kisses you!
posted by lampoil at 1:38 PM on March 23, 2006


Chiming in here with a relationship that started like this. 14 years ago in August, in fact. Our 9th wedding anniversary is in April. :)

She was attached to a boyfriend of five years, and, in fact, I knew it initially to the point where I wouldn't even talk to her because she was exactly the type of girl I liked and I knew she was taken. Ah, well, that didn't pan out. :)

People get in and out of relationships for all sorts of reasons. People do different things at different times. The "If he does x now, then he'll be likely to do x in the future." is, well, at its best speculative. He may only still be there because it's less trouble not to be there. And they are not married... so...

OTOH, just after I got married I developed a terrible crush on a co-worker at a new job, the very much burning desire kind of thing, but I never followed through on that of course, because, well, I was married and I was very delightfully happy with the person I was married to, as I am now. :) Being with someone or married doesn't turn off the part of your brain that attracts you to people. Being married does tend to be a bigger, brighter, louder sign pointing out that if you follow through with any of those desire it's going to cause a lot of trouble.
posted by smallerdemon at 1:45 PM on March 23, 2006


you've obviously never had a guy break your heart by cheating on you. let's start here: you are being incredibly selfish. if you've only known the guy a short while, then you probably don't know the history of his relationship with this woman, and how committed they are to each other. think about his girlfriend's feelings, too, not just your own.
posted by echo0720 at 1:46 PM on March 23, 2006


I would just tell him that you are attracted to him but that you know he is in a long term relationship. Tell him you need to cut back on the friendship because it is disrespectful to his relationship.

Then curtail your interactions to work ones and wait.

If the relationship falls apart and he comes to you, that is on him and you are not a homewrecker. If he sticks with it, well you've done the right thing.

Incidentally, I think this is the best guilt free way to get him out of the relationship
posted by zia at 1:48 PM on March 23, 2006


Response by poster: to clarify for you guys. Yes, I would keep him long term or I wouldn't even be trying. Thanks for all the advice. This is good stuff.
posted by smeater44 at 1:50 PM on March 23, 2006


My view? If he's not engaged or married, he's fair game. The whole reason that people don't get married is, generally, because one or both parties doesn't want to commit to the relationship.

Bullshit. Commitment isn't about whether people are married or not. It's determined by the promises they have made to each other, not the rest of the world.

To answer the question: you want to eat your cake and have it too. You want him to leave his mate and be with you, but you don't want to have to feel any pesky feelings of guilt over it. If you have a conscience, that's not going to happen, and no amount of "it's a bad relationship" rationalization is going to change that. Sorry. I know it's not the answer you're looking for.

The only remotely acceptable solution? Get a different job. Stop seeing the guy. Let him know that if he's ever available, to give you a call. And then move on without the expectation that he will call.
posted by ereshkigal45 at 1:55 PM on March 23, 2006


Damn me for not previewing. What zia said.
posted by ereshkigal45 at 1:55 PM on March 23, 2006


You should pick another guy. Don't wait around and pine for him, pursue someone else. Nothing you've said really indicates that he's interested in breaking up with his girlfriend, nor does it indicate that he'd want to do that for you. All you've described so far seems to be flirting. It sounds like you've got a heavy office crush, which can be both fun and terrible at the same time. If you already feel guilty about it, won't it get worse if you pursue this?

On preview, what ereshkigal45 said.
posted by hooray at 2:03 PM on March 23, 2006


Follow your heart and go for it. Just tell him how you feel and tell him you want a relationship with him. It's that simple. Once the ball is in his court there's not much you can do but sit back and hope for the best.

As for the question of conscience, it's something only you can answer. Situations like this are just too complex to be broken down into basic terms like "right" and "wrong." The only thing you can do at such times is be honest with yourself and those around you. If you love this guy and desperately want him in your life, then that's that. Such a truth can't be denied. If you already feel dirty for having an affair with him, well that's the truth too. These truths don't need to be reconciled with one another. They just are. That's life.
posted by nixerman at 2:04 PM on March 23, 2006


Bullshit. Commitment isn't about whether people are married or not. It's determined by the promises they have made to each other, not the rest of the world.

I third this. I'm about your age, and most unmarried couples I know (myself included) have chosen to remain that way for reasons having nothing to do with commitment. It's an increasing trend with this generation, so I'd avoid the "not married = fair game" advice. It's old school thought, not to mention disrespectful.

My advice? Tell him how you feel, if you haven't already. And then wait, but not forever. Either he's going to leave his girlfriend for you or he's not, and you'll be able to tell pretty quickly if he's dragging his feet or not. Don't try to make him be with you. I know you want him and it's hard when someone you want is in an undesirable position, but it's going to be worse in the long-run if you hang around, waiting for circumstances to change in your favor. Once you get your answer, move on as best you can. Change jobs, if possible. If not possible, don't hang out with him outside of work. Don't talk to him beyond pleasantries. This type of shutting out is painful and takes a truckload of willpower, but it can be done and will be better in the long-run.
posted by Zosia Blue at 2:08 PM on March 23, 2006


Commitment isn't about whether people are married or not. It's determined by the promises they have made to each other, not the rest of the world.

True, but if a couple is in a long-term unmarried relationship, then nine times out of ten, that's because one or both individuals isn't ready or willing to make a promise commit to the other for life. And, just as important, the other individual in the relationship is aware of this fact.

So the fact that this guy and his current girlfriend are unmarried tends to indicate that they haven't made a promise to each other to stay together for life.

(Of course, one time out of ten, this will be completely off-base. But that's fairly rare, in my estimation).
posted by gd779 at 2:10 PM on March 23, 2006


I'm about your age, and most unmarried couples I know (myself included) have chosen to remain that way for reasons having nothing to do with commitment. It's an increasing trend with this generation, so I'd avoid the "not married = fair game" advice. It's old school thought, not to mention disrespectful.

Can someone explain this line of thinking to me? Why would a truly commited couple willingly incur a tax penalty, not to mention a host of legal and financial inconveniences, simply in order to avoid marriage? What's the incentive or motivation here?
posted by gd779 at 2:14 PM on March 23, 2006


I don't have as much experience as Traumason, but I have been in the place of the other woman. (well, actually, I a guy, but I don't think it matters). Do I hate the man who broke up my not so great relationship? No, but I did. I actually think I'd like the guy under other circumstances.

Why don't I hate him? My ex an I are both really happy now with other people. We're not friends, but we keep in touch though mutal friends, and I can honestly say that no one but my ex and I are responsible for the end of our relationship.

What's my advice? Same as Traumason's: talk to him, and perhaps be prepared to restructure your relationship into being either openly platonic, or openly romantic. Subverted emotions and attractions will eventually seriously screw you up. Hell, it might screw up both of your colleagues relationships. To be honest, this is where I am experienced. Prolonged flirting and deception is funny on Fraser and the Office, but in real life it's dangerous to your esteem.

I know a few couples who met while one was married to another person. Some of these seem to be very happy. But keep in mind, the way your colleague handles his breakup will tell you an awful lot about him as a person. If he treats her badly, or tries to have an affair, I'd run.

If I were you, I'd let him know that you are under no obligation to him just because he left a relationship, but that you are really interested in him.

Good luck. There might be a real gem out there for your colleague's girl friend, like there was for me.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 2:22 PM on March 23, 2006


gd779, many unmarried but commited couples I know have a domestic partnership, enabling tax and insurance benefits, etc. They are still in their twenties, and are unmarried because of parental approval.
posted by hooray at 2:28 PM on March 23, 2006


Assume that he has done this several times before with other women throughout the course of his relationship.

Chances are that this is not a case of him second-guessing his relationship because of your individual awesomeness and the singularity of a connection he feels with you, which is so much stronger than what he has ever had with his girlfriend or anyone else.

Poaching is not a good basis for a long-term relationship. Save yourself some grief and institute whatever boundaries are necessary for your friendship to stay non-romantic on both sides.
posted by Marnie at 2:28 PM on March 23, 2006


First, if they've been together for 6 years, they are in an official relationship. In some states they may already be married by common law (this is a technical possibility, not necessarily likely). The point is that their relationship is not trivial, it is not unimportant. You will not hurt the other woman less than you would if they were married. Put yourself in her shoes, would you want someone to feel it was O.K. to come between you and someone you've loved for six years just because you had failed to sign a legal document?

If he breaks up with her and starts dating you, you are a homewrecker. No exceptions. He will probably say that it wasn't you; that he had been thinking about breaking it off for years; that he would have done it eventually anyway. These are all lies to make the two of you feel better.

If your conscience allows you to live with helping to cause the break-up of a long term relationship, then so be it. But don't try to delude yourself with platitudes and rationalizations. You should at least be able to own up to your own actions.
posted by oddman at 2:36 PM on March 23, 2006 [1 favorite]


In the same situation a long, long time ago - I left a guy to be with someone who is now my husband for over 20 years. Life is short. Sometimes you have to lead with your heart. And sometimes, he/she really IS the one.
posted by clarkstonian at 2:41 PM on March 23, 2006


gd779-
My S.O. and I have been togather for six years and we haven't gotten married because he has bad credit and we started dating relatively young, when I was barely 19. Plus tax breaks aren't really a benefit when you're under the poverty line anyway.
posted by stoneegg21 at 2:42 PM on March 23, 2006


I would add, just don't make a habit of it.
posted by clarkstonian at 2:46 PM on March 23, 2006


Why would a truly commited couple willingly incur a tax penalty, - gd779

I don't know about in the US, but in Canada the same tax laws apply equally if you are married or living common law* . So once you've had a kid together, or lived together for a year, there is no difference tax-wise. (Unless you're going to be unmarried and lie and say you're just roommates. Then it's beneficial to be unmarried.)

*common law being defined for these purposes as cohabiting in a conjugal relationship - regardless of the gender of the 2 people - for 12 consecutive months OR cohabiting in a conjugal relationship and having a child together.
posted by raedyn at 2:54 PM on March 23, 2006


"If he does cheat on her, or wants to, with you, then he's just as likely to do it to you down the road."

Ugh..the "once a cheater, always a cheater" line is such bullshit.
How OLD is this guy? She's 24. How old is he? Assuming the same age, then yes, perhaps he will be an infidel down the road. But if he cheats on the current girl & dumps her, it most certainly does NOT mean that he's always going to be a cheating pig. I get so sick of hearing that ridiculous stereotype.

That being said, if this guy really wants her (the OP) then he has some choices to make. If she's made it clear that there's something there and it's mutual, then maybe it'll happen. But otherwise, all the OP really oughta do is wait until he's actually single. Unless she doesn't mind being a dish on the side. There's always that option too.
posted by drstein at 4:09 PM on March 23, 2006 [1 favorite]


Why would a truly commited couple willingly incur a tax penalty, not to mention a host of legal and financial inconveniences

A host of tax and financial penalties, plus the unthinking judgement of your relationship by presumptuous people who assume everyone thinks as they do?

Yeah, it's a tough one.


To the OP:

Given what you've said, I think you have the choice of one or the other (or: What delmoi said).
posted by pompomtom at 4:20 PM on March 23, 2006


I don't think it's "once a cheater, always a cheater" so much as it's "How does he treat his girlfriends?" A guy who had cheated on partners in the past doesn't bother me as much as a guy who seems to be in the process of proving himself untrustworthy in a current relationship.
posted by occhiblu at 4:22 PM on March 23, 2006


"once a cheater..." nah. I say, don't give him the opportunity. Talk with him and lay it on the line: you want to be with him, but you're not going to if he's currently involved. Let him know that if he's ready to move on, you're here for him--but only if he moves on. Love is unconditional, but you're not in love yet, so stack the conditions, express your desires and step back and let him be the man you want him to be. If it works, you'll be acting with honor, passion, and thoughtfulness. Isn't that how to start a relationship?
posted by plinth at 4:40 PM on March 23, 2006


Guilt sucks. Be the homewrecker. Be the adventurous "other woman." You'll regret it if you don't.
posted by frogan at 4:45 PM on March 23, 2006


Please read about emotional triangles (see anything by or about Murry Bowen) You are in one. Get out.
posted by trii at 4:54 PM on March 23, 2006


If he cheats on her with you, then you are allowing yourself to become "the other woman" which is as low on the totem poll as you can go in this situation; because if you are willing to do that, why should he ever break up with his comfort zone?

I think you should speak to him about your feelings and is he leaves the SO then he at least has the guts/determination to do so-- him getting the ball rolling behind her back is what is very sleazy here. Sometimes we get into relationships and find they are not really where our hearts lie-- it is the considerate adults that do the other partner the honor of not prolonging the inevitable and being passive/aggressive about the situation.
posted by haplesschild at 4:56 PM on March 23, 2006


I can't offer advice but two things struck me in this list of comments:
1. the notion that a guy might be attracted (and a girl too) to another and therefore get involved, which, here, is cited as "cheating" with the notion that if he does it once he is going to do it again...gosh. No one has a chance to learn, to grow, to change? Look at how many people marry, divorce, and remarry. Should we say: if he gets divorced once he is bound to do it again?
2. No one seems very concerned about two people working in the same office, though the poster did say she might with ease switch to another spot within the same firm. There are of course many romances (cheating, dating etc) that begin in the same office because of proximity, and often, these things end in the strange situation of a broken relationship where the two continue to work together. My wife recently had to let go a guy with a fairly nice job, and she is friendly and works with the wife, who works also at the same place. Different, I know, but offices are becoming hothouses these days.
A final note, not thought about till now: whenever a question is posted that is of an emotional nature, the comments are usually substantially more than other questions. What does this tell us?
posted by Postroad at 5:07 PM on March 23, 2006


It's not so much a matter of guilt/ no guilt. It's his relationship and his responsibility/problem if he cheats on the woman he's living with. But, here's the deal . . . If he's been living with someone for six years, he's obviously older than you and probably in an entirely different frame of mind. Leaving his woman or cheating on her will involve all sorts of emotional baggage that you don't want. My suggestion . . . just forget this guy and move on.
posted by bananafish at 6:30 PM on March 23, 2006


Zia has it.
posted by -harlequin- at 8:19 PM on March 23, 2006


To those who are saying "once a cheater, always a cheater" is bullshit:

Of course someone who cheats may not ever cheat again. But it's a different situation when you're the one with whom they're cheating and you're thinking of starting a long-term relationship with that person. You're starting at the very beginning of your relationship by telling them, with your actions, that cheating is OK in some way. Those are the relationships that in my opinion will almost always eventually involve cheating.

When it comes to "if he leaves her for you, he'll leave you for someone else someday," I think that's totally valid, too. Why is he still with girl #1 if the relationship is bad? Some people just stay with their current partner out of comfort until something "better" comes along. My concern would not be that the relationship would eventually end, because it either will or won't regardless, but that it may end without your knowledge way before you both let go of it, because one person has checked out but just hasn't found the next person yet. And that...sucks.

These just don't seem like good ways to begin a relationship.

Can someone explain this line of thinking to me? Why would a truly commited couple willingly incur a tax penalty, not to mention a host of legal and financial inconveniences, simply in order to avoid marriage? What's the incentive or motivation here?


As for this, there are as many answers to this question as there are unmarried committed couples. For me, I have tons of reasons to get married, and some big ones to wait:
1. My family would think it's too soon; I want them on board.
2. I don't really believe marriage means anything.
3. Ideally, I'd like to stand in solidarity with my queer friends by not participating in an institution that explicitly excludes them.
4. There's a lot of paperwork and planning involved, (in my particular situation), and I need to focus on other things right now.
I don't really think any of these things affect how committed I am to my partner.
posted by lampoil at 9:04 PM on March 23, 2006


to clarify for you guys. Yes, I would keep him long term or I wouldn't even be trying. Thanks for all the advice. This is good stuff.

Ah well, then I'd say avoid it. If he did dump his long time girlfriend for you, then chances are he'd do the same, and you'd always worry about it and be jealous.

On the other hand, it's better to try things and take emotional risks if you can deal with the fallout.
posted by delmoi at 9:08 PM on March 23, 2006


Look, if you need to feel morally clear about the whole thing, it's really very simple: just tell him that you have feelings for him, but make it clear that, even if he feels the same way, you refuse to get involved until after he ends the relationship with this other woman.

There's not a lot of heat with that, but you know, whatever.
posted by lilboo at 9:27 PM on March 23, 2006 [1 favorite]


A relationship begun out of infidelity (ie., a relationship springing from being 'the other woman') has less than a 10 % chance of "making it." - unfortunately I cannot find the source of this statistic right now.

Interesting article about marriage and infidelity
Infidelity statistics
And you can get this book for as little as $0.48!
posted by mojabunni at 11:05 PM on March 23, 2006


My boyfriend and I have been together for about four years, and we've lived together for three of those years. Though we are neither married nor engaged, I would object very strongly to the notion that either one of us is "fair game." Our reasons for remaining unmarried are our own, but even if the simple fact of our relationship isn't enough of a signal that others should back off, our cohabitation should be.
posted by emmastory at 6:19 AM on March 24, 2006 [1 favorite]


The marriage/engagement thing doesn't really make any difference in my view. If he's in a relationship, he's in a relationship. He has to make a choice: does he want to continue with that relationship, or break it off and start one with you? That's the decent way of doing things. Two-timing never is. If you both decide to start something secretly, behind the back of his current partner, that's bad.
posted by Decani at 7:15 AM on March 24, 2006


By the way, I see you say you don't want any cheating on his part to be involved... I guess I was just trying to say that given we both agree on that point, the call is really his. He's the only one that can decide whether he wants you instead of her. I suppose you need to decide how long you're prepared to give him to make that decision. Perhaps reducing contact with him might encourage him to face up to it.
posted by Decani at 7:19 AM on March 24, 2006


Postroad: guys (or women) who have been divorced are absolutely more likely to be divorced again. People's explanations for this vary widely, but “Fifty percent of first marriages, 67 percent of second and 74 percent
of third marriages end in divorce, according to Jennifer Baker of the Forest Institute of Professional Psychology in Springfield, Missouri.”
See here.
posted by jacalata at 5:09 PM on March 24, 2006


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