Is this online friendship over?
October 29, 2020 2:50 PM Subscribe
I don't know whether to kill off an online friendship or try to keep it alive. I've never met this woman in person, but I have a weird connection with her and I'm afraid cutting her off might be, well, cruel. But she is making me crazy.
I'm a woman, happily married and one of those people who'd be looking for friends online, not relationships. A guy posted something on a professional forum that was pretty misogynistic, and this woman--I'll call her Mindy--swooped down on him and told him he was full of crap. I agreed and admired her courage in doing that, and we started chatting on that forum.
Eventually Mindy and I moved to emailing each another. Mindy is an aspiring writer. She showed me the draft of a novel she's working on. I had low expectations, but this thing was AMAZING. I think she's creating her own genre.
Anyway, I got interested in her methods--I'm a writer too, looking to finish and publish a novel of my own--and we had this little back and forth going that I thought was pretty fun. I didn't want or expect it to go any further than chatting about our writing goals.
Mindy started telling me about her life. It turns out she's had a rough time. She has a lot of trauma in her past. I expressed sympathy and opened up about my own issues a little, but I sensed she really needed an ear more than she wanted to hear about my situation. So I gave her one.
And gave. And gave. And gave. She would send me sixty email message in a day, then I'd hear nothing for weeks. Then she'd start up again.
I find Mindy fascinating, and I can see how the things she went through as a child have informed her work, which is powerful. But she doesn't really want to talk about her work, or mine. She approaches me as if I'm a therapist.
I'm not a therapist. I really have no skills in this direction. So it's inevitable, I suppose, that I've been screwing up with Mindy. One example: she has deeply held Christian beliefs. I don't share those, but I figured if we just avoided the subject we'd be fine. She was going on and on about how horrible and untrustworthy most men are. For my part, I don't think it makes sense to make broad generalizations about people based on their gender. I said that. We went back and forth and Mindy got irritable.
Mindy is great looking and brilliant. She is over 60, though, and she refuses to date guys who aren't between the ages of 25-30. When I asked her why, she said, "I just prefer younger, very good-looking men. That's what I want, and that's what I deserve. I'm willing to wait for the perfect man."
He has to be a Christian, yet also be into bondage. He has to be extremely fit, and he has to have certain physical dimensions--yes, she means just what that sounds like. Her list went on and on. After twenty or thirty emails about her frustration over why she wasn't attracting anything but booty calls on dating sites, I hinted that perhaps she should consider guys who might fall outside these rigid conditions of hers. It just seemed she was rejecting 90 percent of guys right out of the gate.
Oops, wrong thing to say. She flew into a rage, said she was constantly praying about this and that I didn't understand her faith that God would give her what she wanted in a man (I'm not Christian), and she signed off and pouted for a while.
Mindy wrote me twenty or so emails yesterday, talking about some childhood trauma she'd experienced. I did my best to be sympathetic. I was sympathetic! It wasn't an act. She and I have similar backgrounds. I've often told her that I feel I understand her because of that, but she rejects this out of hand--nobody can really ever understand what she went through.
This week she's starting this thing where she's accusing me of forgetting stuff she's told me. "How could you have forgotten what I told you about my stepfather?" She constantly talks about this to me. There's no way I could just forget about her stepfather, it's one of her big themes. And the details are heart-wrenching, so yes, I do recall it and it's beyond sad. I just don't know why anything I come up with is the wrong response.
Today I was feeling down. Since yesterday our messages had been mostly about Mindy's issues. So I felt I could let her in on some of what's been bothering me lately. The bottom fell out of my business (before Covid, actually), and I've been unable to find work for the first time in my life. I'm telling her this and talking about interviews and just sticking with facts and telling her what I've done to improve things, and she starts attacking me for being negative and down on myself.
I said, look, I thought it would okay to let my hair down with you. Don't friends share things that bother them? Secretly I'm wondering: How come Mindy is the only one who gets to complain about anything? Why does she have that status? What am I, nothing? If she wants me to stuff my feelings and just be shiny and successful and rah-rah about everything, she might as well be my mother. My mother also wanted nothing to do with me unless I was bringing her fabulous news. I eventually gave up trying to connect with my mother.
I doubt myself a lot, so I'm wondering: is Mindy massively narcissistic? Or is my negativity genuinely off the charts? Is the problem really me, because I'm too negative and it bores her? I'm leaning toward the NPD thing, but it would help to get a reality check from some of you folks on the green.
To my mind Mindy is a dazzlingly gifted writer, and I wanted to do a project together. I told her I could illustrate her novel cover, and she liked the idea. But do I need to learn special walking-on-eggshells skills in order to keep this thing going? Should I just cut the cord? And if there's something super obvious here that I'm missing, please let me know but don't yell at me. I just need you to be gentle with me today. Thank you!
I'm a woman, happily married and one of those people who'd be looking for friends online, not relationships. A guy posted something on a professional forum that was pretty misogynistic, and this woman--I'll call her Mindy--swooped down on him and told him he was full of crap. I agreed and admired her courage in doing that, and we started chatting on that forum.
Eventually Mindy and I moved to emailing each another. Mindy is an aspiring writer. She showed me the draft of a novel she's working on. I had low expectations, but this thing was AMAZING. I think she's creating her own genre.
Anyway, I got interested in her methods--I'm a writer too, looking to finish and publish a novel of my own--and we had this little back and forth going that I thought was pretty fun. I didn't want or expect it to go any further than chatting about our writing goals.
Mindy started telling me about her life. It turns out she's had a rough time. She has a lot of trauma in her past. I expressed sympathy and opened up about my own issues a little, but I sensed she really needed an ear more than she wanted to hear about my situation. So I gave her one.
And gave. And gave. And gave. She would send me sixty email message in a day, then I'd hear nothing for weeks. Then she'd start up again.
I find Mindy fascinating, and I can see how the things she went through as a child have informed her work, which is powerful. But she doesn't really want to talk about her work, or mine. She approaches me as if I'm a therapist.
I'm not a therapist. I really have no skills in this direction. So it's inevitable, I suppose, that I've been screwing up with Mindy. One example: she has deeply held Christian beliefs. I don't share those, but I figured if we just avoided the subject we'd be fine. She was going on and on about how horrible and untrustworthy most men are. For my part, I don't think it makes sense to make broad generalizations about people based on their gender. I said that. We went back and forth and Mindy got irritable.
Mindy is great looking and brilliant. She is over 60, though, and she refuses to date guys who aren't between the ages of 25-30. When I asked her why, she said, "I just prefer younger, very good-looking men. That's what I want, and that's what I deserve. I'm willing to wait for the perfect man."
He has to be a Christian, yet also be into bondage. He has to be extremely fit, and he has to have certain physical dimensions--yes, she means just what that sounds like. Her list went on and on. After twenty or thirty emails about her frustration over why she wasn't attracting anything but booty calls on dating sites, I hinted that perhaps she should consider guys who might fall outside these rigid conditions of hers. It just seemed she was rejecting 90 percent of guys right out of the gate.
Oops, wrong thing to say. She flew into a rage, said she was constantly praying about this and that I didn't understand her faith that God would give her what she wanted in a man (I'm not Christian), and she signed off and pouted for a while.
Mindy wrote me twenty or so emails yesterday, talking about some childhood trauma she'd experienced. I did my best to be sympathetic. I was sympathetic! It wasn't an act. She and I have similar backgrounds. I've often told her that I feel I understand her because of that, but she rejects this out of hand--nobody can really ever understand what she went through.
This week she's starting this thing where she's accusing me of forgetting stuff she's told me. "How could you have forgotten what I told you about my stepfather?" She constantly talks about this to me. There's no way I could just forget about her stepfather, it's one of her big themes. And the details are heart-wrenching, so yes, I do recall it and it's beyond sad. I just don't know why anything I come up with is the wrong response.
Today I was feeling down. Since yesterday our messages had been mostly about Mindy's issues. So I felt I could let her in on some of what's been bothering me lately. The bottom fell out of my business (before Covid, actually), and I've been unable to find work for the first time in my life. I'm telling her this and talking about interviews and just sticking with facts and telling her what I've done to improve things, and she starts attacking me for being negative and down on myself.
I said, look, I thought it would okay to let my hair down with you. Don't friends share things that bother them? Secretly I'm wondering: How come Mindy is the only one who gets to complain about anything? Why does she have that status? What am I, nothing? If she wants me to stuff my feelings and just be shiny and successful and rah-rah about everything, she might as well be my mother. My mother also wanted nothing to do with me unless I was bringing her fabulous news. I eventually gave up trying to connect with my mother.
I doubt myself a lot, so I'm wondering: is Mindy massively narcissistic? Or is my negativity genuinely off the charts? Is the problem really me, because I'm too negative and it bores her? I'm leaning toward the NPD thing, but it would help to get a reality check from some of you folks on the green.
To my mind Mindy is a dazzlingly gifted writer, and I wanted to do a project together. I told her I could illustrate her novel cover, and she liked the idea. But do I need to learn special walking-on-eggshells skills in order to keep this thing going? Should I just cut the cord? And if there's something super obvious here that I'm missing, please let me know but don't yell at me. I just need you to be gentle with me today. Thank you!
I don't know what's going on with Mindy, but I think your instincts are correct that this is an unbalanced and unhealthy relationship. I am seeing a lot of red and orange flags coming from Mindy, and I don't think you are being overly negative. Her behavior seems like an attempt to trauma bond and you're doing a good job listening to the warning bells! I would listen to your gut and distance yourself from Mindy, either abruptly or gradually, whichever feels safer.
posted by stellaluna at 3:07 PM on October 29, 2020 [30 favorites]
posted by stellaluna at 3:07 PM on October 29, 2020 [30 favorites]
I'm so sorry; it's so hard to feel that initial spark of connection with someone and then realize you may be in over your head. Whatever is happening in Mindy's life, she's asking for a lot of support and isn't able to give that back in return. If you want a mutually supportive friendship, she is not going to be the person to be able to give it to you. I also think the time may have already passed where you can just work on a mutual project and not be the emotional sounding-board, unless you're willing to set really firm limits and keep re-setting them. Just as an example, you decide to work on her book cover, and you then decide you will only respond to messages about the book cover, not personal things. I think this would be difficult with someone who behaves the way Mindy has so far, because when you set the limit she's very likely to lash out and accuse you of distancing yourself--which you will be! No amount of eggshell-walking can change her behavior, any amount of empathy probably won't be enough for her, regardless of the reason.
If it were me I would want to end the relationship, this seems really draining and you can wish her well and admire her writing without having to maintain this personal interaction. If you need gentle permission from an internet stranger to walk away, you have it.
posted by assenav at 3:16 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
If it were me I would want to end the relationship, this seems really draining and you can wish her well and admire her writing without having to maintain this personal interaction. If you need gentle permission from an internet stranger to walk away, you have it.
posted by assenav at 3:16 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
I agree with stellaluna. As with any number of things, the expression "give and take" is part of what makes a solid friendship work. Except in your case, I get the distinct impression that it's always the same person giving, and the same person taking. It's never good when people take for granted a level of patience and indulgence that they'd won't (or perhaps can't) reciprocate. My two cents' worth, adjusted for inflation.
posted by DavidfromBA at 3:19 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by DavidfromBA at 3:19 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
So... I'm sure there are lots of great things about Mindy, but it seems pretty clear she is an emotional vampire. Also, one thing I have learned is that often when intense relationships quickly spring up between people, it is because one of those people is super intense. They share and bond and quickly build intimacy, but the intensity continues in the form of intense ups and downs, drama/fights, boundary crossing, and sometimes abusive behaviors. Add me to the people suggesting that you back away and lose contact with Mindy, using whatever methods feel most comfortable to you. And if you do maintain some contact, do not collaborate with her on work projects.
posted by DTMFA at 3:32 PM on October 29, 2020 [21 favorites]
posted by DTMFA at 3:32 PM on October 29, 2020 [21 favorites]
Poor you and poor Mindy. This is hard. This relationship sounds very draining, and having someone get mad at you all the time just for talking is really unpleasant. It is okay to drift away from people like this. Mindy sounds like a fascinating human and I understand why you want to maintain a relationship with her. But it doesn't sound like a healthy one, and I do want to caution you against collaborating on work with this person. There is no way that will go well.
It's really too bad that Mindy has not been able to figure out how to find a therapist that can help her work out her trauma, but that is not your responsibility. The pattern of interaction she has with you is almost certainly one she has had many many times throughout the course of her life, and it's unfortunate, but it is not your row to hoe. It is never cruel to prioritize ourselves and our own basic well-being over others, especially when these other people are veritable strangers. And these other people can merely rub us the wrong way or annoy us, they do not have to have a narcissistic personality disorder or some kind of "real diagnosis" or reason for the way that they're acting in order to justify walking away.
You might want to ask yourself why you feel like you owe something to this relationship even though Mindy is unkind to you. You mentioned it mirroring your relationship with your mother, and there's probably something there for you to explore. Asking these kinds of questions, would the help of a good therapist, has been really fruitful for me. I hope that you can prioritize yourself here in a way that sits right with you. Take care.
posted by k8lin at 3:37 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]
It's really too bad that Mindy has not been able to figure out how to find a therapist that can help her work out her trauma, but that is not your responsibility. The pattern of interaction she has with you is almost certainly one she has had many many times throughout the course of her life, and it's unfortunate, but it is not your row to hoe. It is never cruel to prioritize ourselves and our own basic well-being over others, especially when these other people are veritable strangers. And these other people can merely rub us the wrong way or annoy us, they do not have to have a narcissistic personality disorder or some kind of "real diagnosis" or reason for the way that they're acting in order to justify walking away.
You might want to ask yourself why you feel like you owe something to this relationship even though Mindy is unkind to you. You mentioned it mirroring your relationship with your mother, and there's probably something there for you to explore. Asking these kinds of questions, would the help of a good therapist, has been really fruitful for me. I hope that you can prioritize yourself here in a way that sits right with you. Take care.
posted by k8lin at 3:37 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]
I can't know what's going on for/with Mindy but she sounds kind of...unbalanced, and without a decent sense of boundaries.
I think it's fine to try to draw boundaries (which I don't imagine she will respond well to, but you can try.) I don't think it's cruel to cut her off if you want to. I think that's what I would do at this point.
I am sometimes drawn to people who have that kind of intensity too. It's tough to navigate because they can be really thrilling in some ways, but for me the relationship is often not sustainable.
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:37 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
I think it's fine to try to draw boundaries (which I don't imagine she will respond well to, but you can try.) I don't think it's cruel to cut her off if you want to. I think that's what I would do at this point.
I am sometimes drawn to people who have that kind of intensity too. It's tough to navigate because they can be really thrilling in some ways, but for me the relationship is often not sustainable.
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:37 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
if there's something super obvious here that I'm missing, please let me know
Mindy is a weirdo. She may be incredibly gifted, but she behaves bizarrely. That is the obvious thing that you're missing -- probably because you love her writing. (It is always disappointing and confusing when you realize that the person behind an piece of art, with which you've connected strongly, is not a kindred spirit in real life.)
Sixty emails? Good lord.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:38 PM on October 29, 2020 [60 favorites]
Mindy is a weirdo. She may be incredibly gifted, but she behaves bizarrely. That is the obvious thing that you're missing -- probably because you love her writing. (It is always disappointing and confusing when you realize that the person behind an piece of art, with which you've connected strongly, is not a kindred spirit in real life.)
Sixty emails? Good lord.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:38 PM on October 29, 2020 [60 favorites]
I had a similar intense friendship with someone online (many many years ago) and the in-person relationship went up in flames for Reasons. What I learned is honestly, people tell you who they are via their words or actions. Mindy is telling you that she does not want your feedback and she does not want your advice and she does not want to hear about you. She wants a passive listening echo chamber. Do you want to be that for her? If, like most people, you prefer more reciprocal relationships, then cut the cord.
posted by sm1tten at 4:11 PM on October 29, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by sm1tten at 4:11 PM on October 29, 2020 [14 favorites]
Well, none of us can diagnose Mindy, but I will say I experienced something similar with a coworker who wanted to talk about their trauma over and over with me and didn't seem to care about anything I had to say about myself. As someone with trauma and CPTSD I know one of the ways some people try to alleviate their trauma is to talk about it and be validated and UNDERSTOOD. I don't think they're looking for a reciprocal friendship in this, but someone to understand. It's very selfish and I've done it myself without knowing exactly why, but the only thing that helped me regain that desire for real, reciprocal friendships was a LOT of therapy. Mindy may not ever want people, specifically you, for anything than a sounding board to process her own trauma until she gets that help. It sucks, but since this isn't working for you, you may just have to say goodbye for now.
posted by Young Kullervo at 4:12 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by Young Kullervo at 4:12 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
>"I said, look, I thought it would okay to let my hair down with you. Don't friends share things that bother them? Secretly I'm wondering: How come Mindy is the only one who gets to complain about anything? Why does she have that status?"
because, as you suspect, Mindy is a great big narcissist and you are her supply. you have to cut off the supply. it sucks, but unless you want to continue to be this woman's unpaid therapist and the recipient of umpteen emails every day about her issues, you've gotta rip off the band-aid.
posted by hollisimo at 4:34 PM on October 29, 2020 [13 favorites]
because, as you suspect, Mindy is a great big narcissist and you are her supply. you have to cut off the supply. it sucks, but unless you want to continue to be this woman's unpaid therapist and the recipient of umpteen emails every day about her issues, you've gotta rip off the band-aid.
posted by hollisimo at 4:34 PM on October 29, 2020 [13 favorites]
What hollismo says, exactly! I was all for you sticking with Mindy up until I got to the part where she treated you so unfairly. She's not interested in you, she's only interested in the attention you give her. If you can't do the band-aid thing, there's always the grey rock method (respond consistently in a boring, non-committal manner until she goes away).
posted by Avalow at 4:41 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by Avalow at 4:41 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
I think you should dump her. If it's any consolation, I went through this with a friend I admired deeply, poured everything into it, and then she dumped -me- because "Since I did (x, y, z things in the two-year-long eggshell-twostep-scramble), I obviously was a bad person and a bad friend and (etc etc etc)." So all my attempts to play nice were for nothing anyway. It sucks, because she was(is) a marvelous artist, writer, and person otherwise, but I have to admit it's a bit of a relief as well.
Interestingly, her dumping me happened about the time she got a bunch of new followers on Twitter. Clearly I was no longer needed.
posted by The otter lady at 5:25 PM on October 29, 2020 [5 favorites]
Interestingly, her dumping me happened about the time she got a bunch of new followers on Twitter. Clearly I was no longer needed.
posted by The otter lady at 5:25 PM on October 29, 2020 [5 favorites]
How long have you all been interacting? Did this ramp up intensity really quickly or have you all been friends for a year or more? Sometimes I'm so suspicious. I'm presuming you have confirmation she's a real person, and you haven't communicated only via email? Because this...
Mindy is great looking and brilliant. She is over 60, though, and she refuses to date guys who aren't between the ages of 25-30. ... He has to be a Christian, yet also be into bondage. He has to be extremely fit, and he has to have certain physical dimensions--yes, she means just what that sounds like.
This is quite a narrative! It's odd and awesome and hilarious, though I also see why it's super annoying (and yes it's different, but I can imagine Mindy's reaction to a 60 year old man who refuses to date any woman within three decades of his own age). She has shared an astounding amount of details with you, including, it seems, her requirements for her partner's genitals. I am guessing you have not shared similar details to any extent? In my mind, I'm now half-convinced "Mindy" is some bored old guy trying to draw you into discussions of sex, and he used someone else's writing as his own and used a photo of a beautiful older woman to make it all a better sell. But, let's presume Mindy is who she says she is...
This sounds like too much stress and work and intensity in what is supposed to be a mutual friendship. I recently ended a friendship where I felt a similar imbalance. In my case, I met my friend in person, but our communications were high in volume and almost completely online. It lasted about a year and a half, and I ended it for a few reasons (I almost posted about it here but did not). First, I didn't always feel like my friend cared about me particularly but wanted someone, a generic friend sponge, to absorb what they had to share with the world. They would often make references to things I was just supposed to know about their life even though they hadn't told me. They would ask to talk when they were particularly upset or stressed about another relationship or interaction, but they were rarely available when I requested the same. They also had pretty poor boundaries. They shared a lot of details about their dating life, and often shared with me screenshots from conversations with others. They didn't always respect my requests to limit communication temporarily (during a camping trip, for example, where I didn't want to burn through my battery and had limited cell reception).
I did derive some value from the friendship. My friend was responsive and smart and funny. And I tried to take space, pull back, reduce volume, etc., but that was very hard for my friend (another mutual friend had the same experience: any interaction was cause to ramp up contact again). I found myself irritable and grumpy with my friend, and I didn't like that at all. It took a month or so of back and forth about it, following a few months of irritability, but I eventually stopped communication with this person.
I thought it would be sad and hard, or I'd be tempted to be back in touch. But, really, it's been a relief. It's sad to note how easy it's been, and what a relief. It was hard to feel grumpy towards my friend so often, because it made us both feel bad.
So, I think you should move away from this friendship. You can try cutting back or setting boundaries, but I suspect that will cause more drama which will frustrate you even more -- but that might make ending this completely all that much easier.
It's also okay to take some space to grieve this as a loss of friendship and creative opportunity. But I think you'll be glad to move forward without Mindy.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:32 PM on October 29, 2020 [17 favorites]
Mindy is great looking and brilliant. She is over 60, though, and she refuses to date guys who aren't between the ages of 25-30. ... He has to be a Christian, yet also be into bondage. He has to be extremely fit, and he has to have certain physical dimensions--yes, she means just what that sounds like.
This is quite a narrative! It's odd and awesome and hilarious, though I also see why it's super annoying (and yes it's different, but I can imagine Mindy's reaction to a 60 year old man who refuses to date any woman within three decades of his own age). She has shared an astounding amount of details with you, including, it seems, her requirements for her partner's genitals. I am guessing you have not shared similar details to any extent? In my mind, I'm now half-convinced "Mindy" is some bored old guy trying to draw you into discussions of sex, and he used someone else's writing as his own and used a photo of a beautiful older woman to make it all a better sell. But, let's presume Mindy is who she says she is...
This sounds like too much stress and work and intensity in what is supposed to be a mutual friendship. I recently ended a friendship where I felt a similar imbalance. In my case, I met my friend in person, but our communications were high in volume and almost completely online. It lasted about a year and a half, and I ended it for a few reasons (I almost posted about it here but did not). First, I didn't always feel like my friend cared about me particularly but wanted someone, a generic friend sponge, to absorb what they had to share with the world. They would often make references to things I was just supposed to know about their life even though they hadn't told me. They would ask to talk when they were particularly upset or stressed about another relationship or interaction, but they were rarely available when I requested the same. They also had pretty poor boundaries. They shared a lot of details about their dating life, and often shared with me screenshots from conversations with others. They didn't always respect my requests to limit communication temporarily (during a camping trip, for example, where I didn't want to burn through my battery and had limited cell reception).
I did derive some value from the friendship. My friend was responsive and smart and funny. And I tried to take space, pull back, reduce volume, etc., but that was very hard for my friend (another mutual friend had the same experience: any interaction was cause to ramp up contact again). I found myself irritable and grumpy with my friend, and I didn't like that at all. It took a month or so of back and forth about it, following a few months of irritability, but I eventually stopped communication with this person.
I thought it would be sad and hard, or I'd be tempted to be back in touch. But, really, it's been a relief. It's sad to note how easy it's been, and what a relief. It was hard to feel grumpy towards my friend so often, because it made us both feel bad.
So, I think you should move away from this friendship. You can try cutting back or setting boundaries, but I suspect that will cause more drama which will frustrate you even more -- but that might make ending this completely all that much easier.
It's also okay to take some space to grieve this as a loss of friendship and creative opportunity. But I think you'll be glad to move forward without Mindy.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:32 PM on October 29, 2020 [17 favorites]
Like bluedaisy I also wondered if this was some weird catfishing variant and like fingersandtoes my eyes bugged out at sixty emails. I think it would be wise to let this one fade. Good luck deciding what to do.
posted by eirias at 7:55 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by eirias at 7:55 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
Sometimes I'm so suspicious. I'm presuming you have confirmation she's a real person, and you haven't communicated only via email?
I had this thought as well. The whole story, especially the part about finding all kinds of hot young guys to have sex with, sounds very far-fetched to me. I wouldn't be surprised if there are huge elements of exaggeration and fantasy in Mindy's story, and she might be keeping up a steady stream of running narrative to keep that fantasy going.
In your shoes, if I weren't willing to cut ties right away, I might be tempted to suddenly start having internet or e-mail problems that meant I only got a couple of e-mails a day, and be very busy and only be able to respond with very short messages. She'll either get the message and back off or she'll find someone else to reflect things back to her the way she wants to see them.
posted by rpfields at 8:01 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
I had this thought as well. The whole story, especially the part about finding all kinds of hot young guys to have sex with, sounds very far-fetched to me. I wouldn't be surprised if there are huge elements of exaggeration and fantasy in Mindy's story, and she might be keeping up a steady stream of running narrative to keep that fantasy going.
In your shoes, if I weren't willing to cut ties right away, I might be tempted to suddenly start having internet or e-mail problems that meant I only got a couple of e-mails a day, and be very busy and only be able to respond with very short messages. She'll either get the message and back off or she'll find someone else to reflect things back to her the way she wants to see them.
posted by rpfields at 8:01 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
I also found myself thinking this person was a raging narcissist, and wondering if they were more than a bit delusional. It's not hard to imagine someone spinning a load of fantastic tales in private in order to manufacture an ego boost. As long as you listen to her and believe her stories she gets to be that persona she created, if only in the mind of another. For some people that's enough motivation.
Even if that's not the case, it seems pretty clear she's only interested in a transactional relationship where she gets to dump whatever she's thinking or feeling at any given time into someone else. The fact that, whenever you respond to her as though this is a balanced friendship, she gets pouty or shirty or exasperated would seem to corroborate that.
And ... sixty emails in a day? Big red flag. Big. Huge.
If I were in your shoes I'd be going no contact. I understand giving the illustration project a miss may be a disappointment, but she has shown you that in this case the personal and the professional cannot be separated. At the very least you'll have to spend a load of mental and emotional energy to filter out the drama and engage only with the project, and if she feels butthurt that you established and maintained a boundary (spoiler: she will feel butthurt that you established and maintained a boundary, which she will interpret as cutting off her validation supply), the project will not go smoothly. Let this relationship go and redirect all that mental energy it's been taking up into recovering from your lost business and finding fulfilling work.
People who behave in this manner are normally not receptive to reason, so unless you enjoy listening to yourself talk I don't know that I'd even bother giving an explanation -- she's going to craft her own reason for your dropping out of her life and it's not likely to be charitable toward you. In your shoes I'd either send a short message, stating that due to events in your life you're not able to continue the association, and then go no contact, or just go no contact. Block her, killfile her, tag her as a spam address, and move on.
posted by myotahapea at 11:44 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
Even if that's not the case, it seems pretty clear she's only interested in a transactional relationship where she gets to dump whatever she's thinking or feeling at any given time into someone else. The fact that, whenever you respond to her as though this is a balanced friendship, she gets pouty or shirty or exasperated would seem to corroborate that.
And ... sixty emails in a day? Big red flag. Big. Huge.
If I were in your shoes I'd be going no contact. I understand giving the illustration project a miss may be a disappointment, but she has shown you that in this case the personal and the professional cannot be separated. At the very least you'll have to spend a load of mental and emotional energy to filter out the drama and engage only with the project, and if she feels butthurt that you established and maintained a boundary (spoiler: she will feel butthurt that you established and maintained a boundary, which she will interpret as cutting off her validation supply), the project will not go smoothly. Let this relationship go and redirect all that mental energy it's been taking up into recovering from your lost business and finding fulfilling work.
People who behave in this manner are normally not receptive to reason, so unless you enjoy listening to yourself talk I don't know that I'd even bother giving an explanation -- she's going to craft her own reason for your dropping out of her life and it's not likely to be charitable toward you. In your shoes I'd either send a short message, stating that due to events in your life you're not able to continue the association, and then go no contact, or just go no contact. Block her, killfile her, tag her as a spam address, and move on.
posted by myotahapea at 11:44 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
Whoa.
This is alot.
First I want to remind you that you can admire someone's work and even work with them without getting entangled in all of this. Like it's not okay to send a single person that many emails in a day. It's just not. You are not the only person in the world. You aren't family, you aren't in a relationship, and even if you were it would be incredibly to much.
So the question is do you dial back or end it?
I'd do the second. Why? Because negotiationing boundaries back into the realm of acceptable to you from where they are right now would be a huge undertaking rife with arguments and disappointment. What's okay? 5 emails? An essay of a single email? Critizing your responses? The amount of effort to reign this into something you consistently enjoy is way more than you'd ever get out of this.
Maybe it's a lost opportunity . I honestly don't think it is. With all this going on you aren't going to be able to work together. You are either going to absolutely resent working with her or the other way around. Cut your losses and run.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
This is alot.
First I want to remind you that you can admire someone's work and even work with them without getting entangled in all of this. Like it's not okay to send a single person that many emails in a day. It's just not. You are not the only person in the world. You aren't family, you aren't in a relationship, and even if you were it would be incredibly to much.
So the question is do you dial back or end it?
I'd do the second. Why? Because negotiationing boundaries back into the realm of acceptable to you from where they are right now would be a huge undertaking rife with arguments and disappointment. What's okay? 5 emails? An essay of a single email? Critizing your responses? The amount of effort to reign this into something you consistently enjoy is way more than you'd ever get out of this.
Maybe it's a lost opportunity . I honestly don't think it is. With all this going on you aren't going to be able to work together. You are either going to absolutely resent working with her or the other way around. Cut your losses and run.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
To answer your question - kill it off. This person is both a time vampire and an energy vampire. All the time you spend thinking about how to support them, not even addressing the question of whether or not all or any of the things that they say are true.
(if you don't know them in real life and most of the things that they put forth seem really far-fetched...it is because chances are strong that they are not true. Your gut is telling you this for a reason, listen to it.)
posted by 41swans at 9:53 AM on October 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
(if you don't know them in real life and most of the things that they put forth seem really far-fetched...it is because chances are strong that they are not true. Your gut is telling you this for a reason, listen to it.)
posted by 41swans at 9:53 AM on October 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
I just re-read your question, and I've been thinking a bit more about it. I noted this part in particular:
I'm wondering: is Mindy massively narcissistic? Or is my negativity genuinely off the charts? Is the problem really me, because I'm too negative and it bores her? I'm leaning toward the NPD thing, but it would help to get a reality check from some of you folks on the green.
I think I know what you're doing: you're trying to figure out *why* Mindy is this way, as if knowing that will help you figure out what to do. If she's a narcissist or has NPD, then you can cut the cord guilt-free. But if you're the problem, then maybe you should work on that. Etc. I have done this before, in romantic relationships that were pretty young but not going well. I saw red flags but didn't understand what they meant and why the person behaved the way they did. It was like I wanted to diagnose them or understand them to know what to do.
But my therapist pointed out, quite smartly, that I didn't have to know why the person was behaving that way in order to end the relationship, because I was seeing those red flags, and those red flags told me it was time to move on. I think you're so deep in this because this friendship was, for a while, exciting and consuming and a distraction--but now it's become unhealthy, and it's giving your more frustration than joy or support.
You don't really have to know or understand why in order to decide it's okay to move on. Mindy is an adult, and you are not obligated, because of her earlier trauma or any other reason, to continue to communicate and support her. You might not ever fully know her and know why she behaves this way. There isn't really a puzzle or problem to solve; it isn't a mystery novel with a tidy ending.
The most important part is it sounds like this friendship isn't what you want. It's okay to move on.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:34 PM on October 30, 2020 [12 favorites]
I'm wondering: is Mindy massively narcissistic? Or is my negativity genuinely off the charts? Is the problem really me, because I'm too negative and it bores her? I'm leaning toward the NPD thing, but it would help to get a reality check from some of you folks on the green.
I think I know what you're doing: you're trying to figure out *why* Mindy is this way, as if knowing that will help you figure out what to do. If she's a narcissist or has NPD, then you can cut the cord guilt-free. But if you're the problem, then maybe you should work on that. Etc. I have done this before, in romantic relationships that were pretty young but not going well. I saw red flags but didn't understand what they meant and why the person behaved the way they did. It was like I wanted to diagnose them or understand them to know what to do.
But my therapist pointed out, quite smartly, that I didn't have to know why the person was behaving that way in order to end the relationship, because I was seeing those red flags, and those red flags told me it was time to move on. I think you're so deep in this because this friendship was, for a while, exciting and consuming and a distraction--but now it's become unhealthy, and it's giving your more frustration than joy or support.
You don't really have to know or understand why in order to decide it's okay to move on. Mindy is an adult, and you are not obligated, because of her earlier trauma or any other reason, to continue to communicate and support her. You might not ever fully know her and know why she behaves this way. There isn't really a puzzle or problem to solve; it isn't a mystery novel with a tidy ending.
The most important part is it sounds like this friendship isn't what you want. It's okay to move on.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:34 PM on October 30, 2020 [12 favorites]
do I need to learn special walking-on-eggshells skills in order to keep this thing going?
The thing about walking on eggshells is that it's not actually possible to successfully walk on eggshells. You will waste time and energy and get mentally and emotionally beat up and you still will not satisfy Mindy. Making this relationship manageable would require a massive investment in boundary setting and even then she will still be the type of person who sends sixty emails. She would probably end the relationship if you tried to impose boundaries, because she's not interested in a healthy mutually beneficial friendship. You are not being too negative at all.
posted by Mavri at 7:00 PM on October 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
The thing about walking on eggshells is that it's not actually possible to successfully walk on eggshells. You will waste time and energy and get mentally and emotionally beat up and you still will not satisfy Mindy. Making this relationship manageable would require a massive investment in boundary setting and even then she will still be the type of person who sends sixty emails. She would probably end the relationship if you tried to impose boundaries, because she's not interested in a healthy mutually beneficial friendship. You are not being too negative at all.
posted by Mavri at 7:00 PM on October 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
She showed me the draft of a novel she's working on. I had low expectations, but this thing was AMAZING. I think she's creating her own genre.
To my mind Mindy is a dazzlingly gifted writer, and I wanted to do a project together. I told her I could illustrate her novel cover, and she liked the idea.
It seems like this is at the root of why you want to continue this friendship with this person? You feel that it is all worth it if you can get to illustrate the novel cover and contribute to the work of a great writer in this way?
Look, you've had a lot of people weigh in on the negative aspects here, but only you can decide if it really is worth it to you to do this. I don't know what you are getting out of illustrating the cover, if you just want to be close to greatness, or feel it's a great professional step for yourself if she's already a known author in her genre, or it's going to pay really well, or what. Realize that there's always a chance (possibly a very high chance) you won't get to illustrate the cover for whatever reason, either a falling out or maybe that she doesn't actually like your idea (or likes it but the publisher has their own ideas), and realize that this person needs to be handled very carefully if you are going forward with this and don't want to get involved in these long email discussions (or even if you do).
Obviously there is some reason why continuing this connection would mean a lot to you, you just need to decide what price (and I don't mean money, I don't mean money at all... more like some ineffable part of your sanity or soul or mental peace) you are willing to pay for it and not let things get beyond that.
But do I need to learn special walking-on-eggshells skills in order to keep this thing going?
Yes.
posted by yohko at 9:06 PM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
To my mind Mindy is a dazzlingly gifted writer, and I wanted to do a project together. I told her I could illustrate her novel cover, and she liked the idea.
It seems like this is at the root of why you want to continue this friendship with this person? You feel that it is all worth it if you can get to illustrate the novel cover and contribute to the work of a great writer in this way?
Look, you've had a lot of people weigh in on the negative aspects here, but only you can decide if it really is worth it to you to do this. I don't know what you are getting out of illustrating the cover, if you just want to be close to greatness, or feel it's a great professional step for yourself if she's already a known author in her genre, or it's going to pay really well, or what. Realize that there's always a chance (possibly a very high chance) you won't get to illustrate the cover for whatever reason, either a falling out or maybe that she doesn't actually like your idea (or likes it but the publisher has their own ideas), and realize that this person needs to be handled very carefully if you are going forward with this and don't want to get involved in these long email discussions (or even if you do).
Obviously there is some reason why continuing this connection would mean a lot to you, you just need to decide what price (and I don't mean money, I don't mean money at all... more like some ineffable part of your sanity or soul or mental peace) you are willing to pay for it and not let things get beyond that.
But do I need to learn special walking-on-eggshells skills in order to keep this thing going?
Yes.
posted by yohko at 9:06 PM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
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posted by ficbot at 3:05 PM on October 29, 2020