Help me deal with a roommate that has plans to travel during Christmas?
October 26, 2020 2:30 PM Subscribe
I just found out my roommate is planning on traveling to Florida over Christmas and I'm having trouble keeping it together.
My wife and I extended a room in our house to a friend of hers who needed to get out of squalor back in March. Since then he's become a tad lax with quarantine measures and we've put up with it to a limited extent because he's way more social that us. He goes to the store (at least wearing a mask) despite being in an area where those same stores deliver. He goes to a secluded cabin in the woods with his quarantine bubble. But now, today, I've found out that he plans to go to Florida to spend a month with family over Christmas.
The problem is my wife is asthmatic. She has some minor immunodeficiency issues. We've been trying to balance as best we can on who we have contact us and having good reasons why but in general, we're trying to keep it to a minimum. Him going to Florida, having contact with an unmitigated list of people, and then coming back to us disturbs me greatly.
The other problem is that I do like the guy. He works a dead end IT job and without us providing wayyyyy below market rent on a room he would have to go back to somewhere extremely shitty and possibly unsafe and I don't want to be a person who does that to another person. Also, since he moved in he introduced me to a group of people here that we do virtual game nights with on Fridays among some other virtual activities and it's been like a lifeline to me.
How can I navigate to the best possible outcome of this? I'm trapped between being terrified for my wife and not wanting to burn a bridge and I don't even know where to start beyond sobbing uncontrollably from the stress. The only thing I know for sure right now is if he does go to Florida I don't want him coming back in the house but I know that's not a good place to start from.
Any advice would be welcome.
My wife and I extended a room in our house to a friend of hers who needed to get out of squalor back in March. Since then he's become a tad lax with quarantine measures and we've put up with it to a limited extent because he's way more social that us. He goes to the store (at least wearing a mask) despite being in an area where those same stores deliver. He goes to a secluded cabin in the woods with his quarantine bubble. But now, today, I've found out that he plans to go to Florida to spend a month with family over Christmas.
The problem is my wife is asthmatic. She has some minor immunodeficiency issues. We've been trying to balance as best we can on who we have contact us and having good reasons why but in general, we're trying to keep it to a minimum. Him going to Florida, having contact with an unmitigated list of people, and then coming back to us disturbs me greatly.
The other problem is that I do like the guy. He works a dead end IT job and without us providing wayyyyy below market rent on a room he would have to go back to somewhere extremely shitty and possibly unsafe and I don't want to be a person who does that to another person. Also, since he moved in he introduced me to a group of people here that we do virtual game nights with on Fridays among some other virtual activities and it's been like a lifeline to me.
How can I navigate to the best possible outcome of this? I'm trapped between being terrified for my wife and not wanting to burn a bridge and I don't even know where to start beyond sobbing uncontrollably from the stress. The only thing I know for sure right now is if he does go to Florida I don't want him coming back in the house but I know that's not a good place to start from.
Any advice would be welcome.
Response by poster: Not to my knowledge. His funds are extremely limited.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:35 PM on October 26, 2020
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:35 PM on October 26, 2020
I live with housemates, and when one of us breaks our bubble by traveling or sharing intimate space with a new person, here's the protocol we've come up with:
The exposed person isolates within the house (mask in common areas / eat in their room / wipe up religiously after using the bathroom and kitchen) for at least 5 days before getting a COVID test. If no test is available, then they isolate within the house for two weeks.
posted by ottereroticist at 2:44 PM on October 26, 2020 [18 favorites]
The exposed person isolates within the house (mask in common areas / eat in their room / wipe up religiously after using the bathroom and kitchen) for at least 5 days before getting a COVID test. If no test is available, then they isolate within the house for two weeks.
posted by ottereroticist at 2:44 PM on October 26, 2020 [18 favorites]
"I'm sorry, but due to my wife's health issues, it will not be possible for you to continue living with us if you travel to Florida in Dec. I know it's hard not being able to spend time with your family during the holidays but this is an exceptional year and we all have to make sacrifices to stay safe."
The forecast for covid spreading this winter is *bad* and Florida has a government openly antagonistic to safety measures.
Could he quarantine at the cabin in the woods?
posted by Candleman at 2:45 PM on October 26, 2020 [53 favorites]
The forecast for covid spreading this winter is *bad* and Florida has a government openly antagonistic to safety measures.
Could he quarantine at the cabin in the woods?
posted by Candleman at 2:45 PM on October 26, 2020 [53 favorites]
It may not be an option, legally, for him to NOT quarantine for 14 days after returning, depending on where you live. That means NOT around other people, and NOT in your house. It might, for real, be a matter of 'if you can't afford to do that, you can't afford to take this trip.' DO NOT put his selfishness above your wife's health. Going on vacation is optional, risking other people's lives is NOT an option.
Also,"secluded cabin in the woods" sounds like excellent quarantine material.
posted by sexyrobot at 2:46 PM on October 26, 2020 [27 favorites]
Also,"secluded cabin in the woods" sounds like excellent quarantine material.
posted by sexyrobot at 2:46 PM on October 26, 2020 [27 favorites]
Response by poster: Could he quarantine at the cabin in the woods?
Sadly, no. It belongs to the family member of a friend in his bubble who also use it. However, building on what RoadScholar said previously, I floated just paying for a reasonable hotel with wifi for two weeks for him to quarantine with on his return and she's receptive to it.
DO NOT put his selfishness above your wife's health. Going on vacation is optional, risking other people's lives is NOT an option.
You are 100% correct but I'm just trying to find a solution that might make everyone be able to get what they want rather than nuking everything from orbit.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:48 PM on October 26, 2020 [9 favorites]
Sadly, no. It belongs to the family member of a friend in his bubble who also use it. However, building on what RoadScholar said previously, I floated just paying for a reasonable hotel with wifi for two weeks for him to quarantine with on his return and she's receptive to it.
DO NOT put his selfishness above your wife's health. Going on vacation is optional, risking other people's lives is NOT an option.
You are 100% correct but I'm just trying to find a solution that might make everyone be able to get what they want rather than nuking everything from orbit.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:48 PM on October 26, 2020 [9 favorites]
without us providing wayyyyy below market rent on a room he would have to go back to somewhere extremely shitty and possibly unsafe and I don't want to be a person who does that to another person.
Unfortunately, your roommate is a person who would do that to another person. His plans would make your home and your family unsafe, and that is unacceptable.
You're a kind and caring person but I don't see there a good place to start from on this, and in any event it's not on you to meet his selfish behavior half-way. If he goes to Florida, I would not allow him back into your home. Frankly, the idea of travelling like that is such a poor decision that it would give me serious concern about his other behavior during this pandemic that you may not know about. Regardless of whether or not he goes to Florida, I would suggest starting the process of moving him out, but that's for you to decide.
posted by ZaphodB at 2:49 PM on October 26, 2020 [15 favorites]
Unfortunately, your roommate is a person who would do that to another person. His plans would make your home and your family unsafe, and that is unacceptable.
You're a kind and caring person but I don't see there a good place to start from on this, and in any event it's not on you to meet his selfish behavior half-way. If he goes to Florida, I would not allow him back into your home. Frankly, the idea of travelling like that is such a poor decision that it would give me serious concern about his other behavior during this pandemic that you may not know about. Regardless of whether or not he goes to Florida, I would suggest starting the process of moving him out, but that's for you to decide.
posted by ZaphodB at 2:49 PM on October 26, 2020 [15 favorites]
Are you able to forgive a portion of his rent so he could pay for a place to quarantine himself? To my strict, rule-abiding self, this feels like subsidizing reckless behavior and setting a bad precedent, but it's an option.
posted by esoterrica at 2:53 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by esoterrica at 2:53 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Are you able to forgive a portion of his rent so he could pay for a place to quarantine himself? To my strict, rule-abiding self, this feels like subsidizing reckless behavior and setting a bad precedent, but it's an option.
Yeah we can. That's why floating him a hotel for two weeks on his return seems to be the most workable option at the moment.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:56 PM on October 26, 2020 [10 favorites]
Yeah we can. That's why floating him a hotel for two weeks on his return seems to be the most workable option at the moment.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:56 PM on October 26, 2020 [10 favorites]
It's not nuking from orbit, it's setting a very real, necessary boundary. If he chooses to nuke out (like he's choosing to put you at risk), that's his deal. Stand firm.
posted by sexyrobot at 3:01 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 3:01 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]
Subsidizing the hotel room would be a kindness this time.
Because we all know this pandemic is nowhere near through with us, I highly recommend that you make clear it’s a one-time kindness. Next time he’s this careless in his planning, he’s paying for his own two-week accommodations, and if it happens again after that, he needs to figure out a new place to live.
I admit that this is Monday morning quarterbacking on my part. It’s a 2020 twist on the kind of boundaries I wish I’d set with our subsidized “roommate” when he moved in over a decade ago.
posted by armeowda at 3:18 PM on October 26, 2020 [43 favorites]
Because we all know this pandemic is nowhere near through with us, I highly recommend that you make clear it’s a one-time kindness. Next time he’s this careless in his planning, he’s paying for his own two-week accommodations, and if it happens again after that, he needs to figure out a new place to live.
I admit that this is Monday morning quarterbacking on my part. It’s a 2020 twist on the kind of boundaries I wish I’d set with our subsidized “roommate” when he moved in over a decade ago.
posted by armeowda at 3:18 PM on October 26, 2020 [43 favorites]
Rather than pay rent that month after he returns, have him get a one week AirBnB.
Everyone has their own risk tolerances and risk levels based on their own physical health and their personality. Being concerned that he goes to stores wearing a mask that could deliver is having a very low risk tolerance.
I am in several high risk categories. I go to the grocery twice a week. I go to the local deli too often for my waist line. I would talk to him. What you see as being unacceptable he may see as being cautious. He may also think he is sort of doing you a favor by being out of your house for the holidays to give you a little privacy. He may be relieved to hear you would rather he be in your hair than go to the Sunshine State.
posted by AugustWest at 3:42 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]
Everyone has their own risk tolerances and risk levels based on their own physical health and their personality. Being concerned that he goes to stores wearing a mask that could deliver is having a very low risk tolerance.
I am in several high risk categories. I go to the grocery twice a week. I go to the local deli too often for my waist line. I would talk to him. What you see as being unacceptable he may see as being cautious. He may also think he is sort of doing you a favor by being out of your house for the holidays to give you a little privacy. He may be relieved to hear you would rather he be in your hair than go to the Sunshine State.
posted by AugustWest at 3:42 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]
You seem to be of a kind and generous mind towards your friend/roommate already, but I feel obligated to chime in to balance out some of the “this person is clearly evil for even considering traveling banish him from your life” sentiment here.
You’ve said that he is very social and isolation has been a lot harder on social people. You have your wife and so family built into home; his family is in Florida and it’s Christmas. It’s extremely human for him to want to go home, and human not to recognize the risks. Where I live, in a blue state, life has largely resumed for a lot of folks, but with social distancing and mask wearing the new norms. So his plan might feel reasonable to him, and it may involve his own gestures towards quarantine.
Just talk to him. Your hotel offer is extremely generous and could be framed as a holiday gift. Also like folks’ ideas to waive rent and have him book an Airbnb instead.
If there are other issues with him as a roommate then my answer might vary, but assuming you are happy with the current arrangement then I would try to work with him.
posted by nancynickerson at 3:56 PM on October 26, 2020 [13 favorites]
You’ve said that he is very social and isolation has been a lot harder on social people. You have your wife and so family built into home; his family is in Florida and it’s Christmas. It’s extremely human for him to want to go home, and human not to recognize the risks. Where I live, in a blue state, life has largely resumed for a lot of folks, but with social distancing and mask wearing the new norms. So his plan might feel reasonable to him, and it may involve his own gestures towards quarantine.
Just talk to him. Your hotel offer is extremely generous and could be framed as a holiday gift. Also like folks’ ideas to waive rent and have him book an Airbnb instead.
If there are other issues with him as a roommate then my answer might vary, but assuming you are happy with the current arrangement then I would try to work with him.
posted by nancynickerson at 3:56 PM on October 26, 2020 [13 favorites]
"and without us providing wayyyyy below market rent on a room...
It seems to me that he is a tenant, and you are a landlord. So he has rights and obligations per the lease or per any standard covenants for your state.
posted by zeikka at 4:01 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
It seems to me that he is a tenant, and you are a landlord. So he has rights and obligations per the lease or per any standard covenants for your state.
posted by zeikka at 4:01 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: It seems to me that he is a tenant, and you are a landlord. So he has rights and obligations per the lease or per any standard covenants for your state.
Yeah we're in MA so it's 30 day notice to quit which is why I think this needs to be dealt with now.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:07 PM on October 26, 2020
Yeah we're in MA so it's 30 day notice to quit which is why I think this needs to be dealt with now.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:07 PM on October 26, 2020
I'd also say ... are these firm plans? I remember a lot of freaking out in the spring about trips that got cancelled a lot closer to the time to go. This summer my elderly father wasn't quite ready to give up on a November trip. My sister and I had a conversation about it and decided it would become clear closer to November that the trip couldn't happen, and there was no reason to push the issue. He told me later that they had cancelled the trip.
In the big picture, though, I'd set some boundaries. You are trying to solve the problem for him (by offering to reduce a rent and pay for him to rent a hotel room) rather than communicating boundaries. So, think about what you would need: "If you are around people unmasked, we will need you to quarantine outside of the house for [amount of time] before returning to the house. If that's unacceptable, then we will be glad to work with you to store your things in your room over the holidays and help you get delivery of them when you return to town in January." Or something like that.
This is stressful. Hang in there.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:08 PM on October 26, 2020
In the big picture, though, I'd set some boundaries. You are trying to solve the problem for him (by offering to reduce a rent and pay for him to rent a hotel room) rather than communicating boundaries. So, think about what you would need: "If you are around people unmasked, we will need you to quarantine outside of the house for [amount of time] before returning to the house. If that's unacceptable, then we will be glad to work with you to store your things in your room over the holidays and help you get delivery of them when you return to town in January." Or something like that.
This is stressful. Hang in there.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:08 PM on October 26, 2020
Massachusetts currently has mandatory quarantine laws in place for people coming in from Florida (and any state that is not lower-risk than Massachusetts.) The laws prevent him from just coming back to the room in your house, legally speaking.
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:13 PM on October 26, 2020 [20 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:13 PM on October 26, 2020 [20 favorites]
The problem with asking him to quarantine outside the home is that you really don't know how strictly he will be keeping it. Friends coming over just for a little bit. Having to take a bus to get groceries. Going out to relieve the boredom. Nobody has to know.
posted by dum spiro spero at 4:14 PM on October 26, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by dum spiro spero at 4:14 PM on October 26, 2020 [15 favorites]
nuking everything from orbit
Gently, I'd reframe this if I were you. Nobody's nuking anything from anywhere. Having a conversation about boundaries is a thing that healthy adult friendships can weather. It's not necessarily an easy conversation. But like the STI conversation, it's really really important.
How does he respond when you try to have a conversation about your discomfort with his current activities? (You have had that conversation, yes?) Because his lockdown bubble -- the people he goes to the cabin with -- are also your lockdown bubble. That's how it works. (The NHS has a decent explanation of what a lockdown/support bubble is. It's not "hanging with Friend A and then living with Friend B.")
You don't mention how your wife feels about all this, but you did (presumably) promise to protect each other, and you haven't (presumably) made a similar vow to your friend. You sound like a very loving and generous person and a wonderful friend, but it's not clear, from how you write about this scenario, that your roommate reciprocates your kindness.
Hugs. This is hard.
posted by basalganglia at 4:23 PM on October 26, 2020 [10 favorites]
Gently, I'd reframe this if I were you. Nobody's nuking anything from anywhere. Having a conversation about boundaries is a thing that healthy adult friendships can weather. It's not necessarily an easy conversation. But like the STI conversation, it's really really important.
How does he respond when you try to have a conversation about your discomfort with his current activities? (You have had that conversation, yes?) Because his lockdown bubble -- the people he goes to the cabin with -- are also your lockdown bubble. That's how it works. (The NHS has a decent explanation of what a lockdown/support bubble is. It's not "hanging with Friend A and then living with Friend B.")
You don't mention how your wife feels about all this, but you did (presumably) promise to protect each other, and you haven't (presumably) made a similar vow to your friend. You sound like a very loving and generous person and a wonderful friend, but it's not clear, from how you write about this scenario, that your roommate reciprocates your kindness.
Hugs. This is hard.
posted by basalganglia at 4:23 PM on October 26, 2020 [10 favorites]
How does he respond when you try to have a conversation about your discomfort with his current activities? (You have had that conversation, yes?)
I have the same question.
Also, is actually unclear to me whether you have talked to your roommate about his plans other than the fact that he has plans to travel... have you? Has he contributed any solutions or thoughts about solutions?
posted by sm1tten at 4:29 PM on October 26, 2020
I have the same question.
Also, is actually unclear to me whether you have talked to your roommate about his plans other than the fact that he has plans to travel... have you? Has he contributed any solutions or thoughts about solutions?
posted by sm1tten at 4:29 PM on October 26, 2020
Will he actually quarantine in the hotel for 2 weeks? or go out, unobserved? Have a serious chat. You are being really kind and generous, and he should return this to whatever extent possible. The Florida trip is not essential.
posted by theora55 at 4:59 PM on October 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 4:59 PM on October 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
If you are sobbing uncontrollably from the stress, you need to give him 30 days notice. If he has cash to get to Florida and back, he doesn’t need a vastly under market price room. Let him live with his family in Florida for a month and then forever. If he doesn’t have a job in your area that can pay the bills without being subsidized by you, and his family can take him for a month, they should take him permanently. Or he could get better job- grocery store or similar- that will enable him to pay for a room at market rate here or there.
You sound very generous and kind. However, this fellow has many other options that do not cause risks to your wife so severe that you are sobbing uncontrollably. Give him 30 days notice, wish him well in Florida, and bid him goodbye. If he leaves a whole bunch of crap at your house, you might ask him several times to remove it, then ship it to him in a POD at your expense to be done with it.
Remember, if this Covid thing goes on, your local laws may change so that you can never evict him, even if he recklessly exposes you two to Covid. Repeatedly. Take your opportunity now to send him away, or accept that no matter how much you pay for quarantine hotels, he does not have the same risk tolerance as you two, and so may infect you.
posted by KayQuestions at 5:04 PM on October 26, 2020 [30 favorites]
You sound very generous and kind. However, this fellow has many other options that do not cause risks to your wife so severe that you are sobbing uncontrollably. Give him 30 days notice, wish him well in Florida, and bid him goodbye. If he leaves a whole bunch of crap at your house, you might ask him several times to remove it, then ship it to him in a POD at your expense to be done with it.
Remember, if this Covid thing goes on, your local laws may change so that you can never evict him, even if he recklessly exposes you two to Covid. Repeatedly. Take your opportunity now to send him away, or accept that no matter how much you pay for quarantine hotels, he does not have the same risk tolerance as you two, and so may infect you.
posted by KayQuestions at 5:04 PM on October 26, 2020 [30 favorites]
I'm shocked that he's planning to go to a hot-spot during a time frame when all experts are saying that we should expect a huge number of infections. This is a potentially deadly decision that he didn't really even consult with you about - he just announced it? And, he doesn't have a plan for safe quarantine once he's back? Certainly he understands your wife's extra level of vulnerability. This decision makes it very hard to trust his judgement. If you did splurge for 2 weeks of a hotel room for him, could you even trust him to stay put? Being in a hotel room and not being able to leave isn't super fun. I can imagine him quickly giving himself permission to do all sorts of reckless things given that he already makes those allowances without considering his household's safety.
Also, is he just planning to live with you two forever at greatly reduced rent? He seems to be affording himself month-long trips that put you at risk while also not making plans for a safe reentry once he's back. I do think it's time to have a more in-depth talk about everyone's expectations and how you all understand collective responsibility. These talks may be difficult, but watching your wife die alone in a hospital on Facetime is on the line. We are already breaking new infection records every day and we haven't even really started holiday season and the time of year when most people are indoors all of the time because of climate.
posted by quince at 5:04 PM on October 26, 2020 [10 favorites]
Also, is he just planning to live with you two forever at greatly reduced rent? He seems to be affording himself month-long trips that put you at risk while also not making plans for a safe reentry once he's back. I do think it's time to have a more in-depth talk about everyone's expectations and how you all understand collective responsibility. These talks may be difficult, but watching your wife die alone in a hospital on Facetime is on the line. We are already breaking new infection records every day and we haven't even really started holiday season and the time of year when most people are indoors all of the time because of climate.
posted by quince at 5:04 PM on October 26, 2020 [10 favorites]
You need to have an honest and blunt conversation with this guy about your worries about how the risks he's taking could endanger your wife. Your concerns are legitimate and you are not being unkind or unreasonable.
I agree that paying for a cheap hotel room with decent wifi after his Christmas trip would be a kindness this one time,, but if he can't live within your ground rules after that he needs to find another place to stay. The choice about whether to stay with you or live in squalor is his to make at that point.
posted by rpfields at 5:25 PM on October 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
I agree that paying for a cheap hotel room with decent wifi after his Christmas trip would be a kindness this one time,, but if he can't live within your ground rules after that he needs to find another place to stay. The choice about whether to stay with you or live in squalor is his to make at that point.
posted by rpfields at 5:25 PM on October 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
I think you need to make a choice of whether you will prioritize his needs or your wife's needs right now. Many people gave you great logistical suggestions above so here's just something to think about for the future. Perhaps his finding a new place to live would be best for everyone involved long-term. I am cautious about COVID but still go out with my mask to the gym, grocery store, and to see bubble friends. I am stuck in the US since I can't go back to my apartment in Argentina; I have no real home here anymore. I have found various places to stay these past seven months and am currently camping on my parents' porch as to not put them at risk. I will be looking for alternative accommodations as it gets colder.
To be honest, it sounds like you've been enabling this guy for quite some time and some distance might be the best for everyone involved. If he's a true friend, he'll still be a friend even after he moves out. You are a kind and generous person, which is a good thing. However, in times like these, we have to make some tough decisions that, unfortunately, we never wish we'd have to make.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:02 PM on October 26, 2020 [6 favorites]
To be honest, it sounds like you've been enabling this guy for quite some time and some distance might be the best for everyone involved. If he's a true friend, he'll still be a friend even after he moves out. You are a kind and generous person, which is a good thing. However, in times like these, we have to make some tough decisions that, unfortunately, we never wish we'd have to make.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:02 PM on October 26, 2020 [6 favorites]
Also, I don't think it's bad or selfish for him to want to see family in Florida right now in spite of the risks. I can imagine he's been very lonely. I would even guess that, if he can work remotely, he may want to just stay in Florida for the near future!
posted by smorgasbord at 6:03 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 6:03 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]
If he can afford to buy a plane ticket to Florida and stay there for a month, then I be he can afford to get a hotel room for two weeks and quarantine before moving back to you place. He clearly isn't without some resources.
You are already being generous by helping him have an affordable and safe place to stay, you do not have to become a doormat.
posted by brookeb at 6:14 PM on October 26, 2020 [6 favorites]
You are already being generous by helping him have an affordable and safe place to stay, you do not have to become a doormat.
posted by brookeb at 6:14 PM on October 26, 2020 [6 favorites]
The problem is my wife is asthmatic. She has some minor immunodeficiency issues. We've been trying to balance as best we can on who we have contact us and having good reasons why but in general, we're trying to keep it to a minimum. Him going to Florida, having contact with an unmitigated list of people, and then coming back to us disturbs me greatly.
Above all else, your home needs to be your refuge. Your safe place. The place where you get to say what goes and what doesn't. That's pretty much what makes a home a home instead of just a place to sleep.
A home - a proper, real, safe home - is, to my way of thinking, is the single most precious worldly resource a human being can have. Keeping my home matters more to me than keeping my friendships. If somebody I had hitherto thought of as my friend were to present me with what amounts to an ultimatum that I could either keep them as a friend or keep the safety of my home but not both, my home would win instantly and I strongly recommend that you also adopt this policy.
In your position I would be making it perfectly clear to my wife's friend now that their taking a trip to Florida in December would absolutely rule out access to my home until after two weeks of rigorously and verifiably completed quarantine, including a negative result for a test for COVID conducted after quarantine day 10, on return. This would be offered in the spirit of information to help them work out what they were going to to over Christmas and would absolutely not be up for negotiation or discussion or compromise. Because this is about defending your home.
he would have to go back to somewhere extremely shitty and possibly unsafe and I don't want to be a person who does that to another person
If you let this person know how things stand right now, and they then blow off your concerns and go to Florida without organizing two weeks of appropriate quarantine accommodation for their return, then you haven't done that to another person. They've done it to themselves.
If somebody doesn't value having a safe home as highly as I do, they're perfectly free to choose not to have one. There is nothing I can or should do to make them value having a safe home as highly as I do. But if they don't, then the consequences of that are on them, not on me, and they don't get to impose that lack of concern on my home.
Whether or not you help pay for their quarantine accommodation is a completely separate matter that might well be up for discussion or negotiation.
posted by flabdablet at 7:01 PM on October 26, 2020 [18 favorites]
Above all else, your home needs to be your refuge. Your safe place. The place where you get to say what goes and what doesn't. That's pretty much what makes a home a home instead of just a place to sleep.
A home - a proper, real, safe home - is, to my way of thinking, is the single most precious worldly resource a human being can have. Keeping my home matters more to me than keeping my friendships. If somebody I had hitherto thought of as my friend were to present me with what amounts to an ultimatum that I could either keep them as a friend or keep the safety of my home but not both, my home would win instantly and I strongly recommend that you also adopt this policy.
In your position I would be making it perfectly clear to my wife's friend now that their taking a trip to Florida in December would absolutely rule out access to my home until after two weeks of rigorously and verifiably completed quarantine, including a negative result for a test for COVID conducted after quarantine day 10, on return. This would be offered in the spirit of information to help them work out what they were going to to over Christmas and would absolutely not be up for negotiation or discussion or compromise. Because this is about defending your home.
he would have to go back to somewhere extremely shitty and possibly unsafe and I don't want to be a person who does that to another person
If you let this person know how things stand right now, and they then blow off your concerns and go to Florida without organizing two weeks of appropriate quarantine accommodation for their return, then you haven't done that to another person. They've done it to themselves.
If somebody doesn't value having a safe home as highly as I do, they're perfectly free to choose not to have one. There is nothing I can or should do to make them value having a safe home as highly as I do. But if they don't, then the consequences of that are on them, not on me, and they don't get to impose that lack of concern on my home.
Whether or not you help pay for their quarantine accommodation is a completely separate matter that might well be up for discussion or negotiation.
posted by flabdablet at 7:01 PM on October 26, 2020 [18 favorites]
I spent the tail end of March and all of April in New Zealand's quarantine lockdown, so I know from bubbles. (Unlike the USA, NZ developed a clear national policy and messaging campaign, which is why a nation of 5 million people has had only 25 COVID-19 deaths so far, which would be the equivalent, based on population, of 1675 deaths in the US.) So the first thing that struck me as a huge red flag in your post is this line:
Unless you know and trust everyone else he meets up with in that cabin, and everyone they meet up with, you don't have a bubble. What you have is a potential cluster. It's noble of you and your wife to have offered a refuge to her friend who needed a place to stay. But during this particular pandemic, I think it's important to lay out clear ground rules for everyone who's in your bubble, and any transgressions that would require leaving the bubble. My wife has respiratory problems, and if I agreed to let a friend move into our home, I would insist that they follow the same rules that we do, and that if they broke those rules, they would need to move out immediately.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:55 PM on October 26, 2020 [26 favorites]
He goes to a secluded cabin in the woods with his quarantine bubble. [Emphasis added.]If there's one thing I learned in NZ, it's that if someone is in your bubble, then your bubble includes everyone with whom they are in contact. There is no "his" bubble and "your" bubble. There is just "your" bubble, which includes him and everyone else with whom he is in close contact.
Unless you know and trust everyone else he meets up with in that cabin, and everyone they meet up with, you don't have a bubble. What you have is a potential cluster. It's noble of you and your wife to have offered a refuge to her friend who needed a place to stay. But during this particular pandemic, I think it's important to lay out clear ground rules for everyone who's in your bubble, and any transgressions that would require leaving the bubble. My wife has respiratory problems, and if I agreed to let a friend move into our home, I would insist that they follow the same rules that we do, and that if they broke those rules, they would need to move out immediately.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:55 PM on October 26, 2020 [26 favorites]
As a corollary to my post, his Florida trip might give you a good excuse to start enforcing rules that you should have enforced from the get-go.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:57 PM on October 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by brianogilvie at 7:57 PM on October 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
It sounds like your housemate is doing quite a few things you are not comfortable with already, and that you are allowing him to live there as a favor. It's time to consider that maybe this just isn't working out. The level of conflicting ideas about what is ok is increasing and you have done a nice thing for a friend for a bit but it might be time to end while you are still on good terms before there are further big disagreements, bigger than this trip.
It's good to bring things up with plenty of lead time. It seems likely he has family in Florida who want to see him and want to provide housing for a month, if they are interested in having him around for that length of time it's likely that they would be fine with him moving in, but you need to start discussing things and actually provide official notice to him. Doesn't have to be a big drama -- "Hey so I know we talked about this already, here's the official thing for it in case you need it for any paperwork or anything"
he would have to go back to somewhere extremely shitty and possibly unsafe and I don't want to be a person who does that to another person
Not saying you should do this but just something to think about: There are plenty of other people out there who would love to have a nice place to live at a reduced rate who would be willing to follow all of your precautions to do it. If you don't want to be a person who does this to another person, why are you not finding someone who is forced to live somewhere shitty and possibly unsafe now and isn't even able to afford to travel to rent this room to instead?
posted by yohko at 8:36 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]
It's good to bring things up with plenty of lead time. It seems likely he has family in Florida who want to see him and want to provide housing for a month, if they are interested in having him around for that length of time it's likely that they would be fine with him moving in, but you need to start discussing things and actually provide official notice to him. Doesn't have to be a big drama -- "Hey so I know we talked about this already, here's the official thing for it in case you need it for any paperwork or anything"
he would have to go back to somewhere extremely shitty and possibly unsafe and I don't want to be a person who does that to another person
Not saying you should do this but just something to think about: There are plenty of other people out there who would love to have a nice place to live at a reduced rate who would be willing to follow all of your precautions to do it. If you don't want to be a person who does this to another person, why are you not finding someone who is forced to live somewhere shitty and possibly unsafe now and isn't even able to afford to travel to rent this room to instead?
posted by yohko at 8:36 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]
Also, if that possibly unsafe place is Florida, it seems like he's going there voluntarily so it's not as though the housing you are providing is keeping him out of that place.
posted by yohko at 9:13 PM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by yohko at 9:13 PM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
Hopefully you realize soon that hosting someone who just got off a plane full of Floridians makes your home "shitty, and possibly unsafe." Sorry if that sounds blunt, but if I, and my bipolar depression, can handle 9 months of total isolation (and looking at what, a minimum of 6 more? Or more?), then surely the two of you can get along without a third wheel. (Of course, I'm right in the middle of hotspot #1 (just outside manhattan) and got treated to a six-week nonstop siren serenade and the grim sight of many piles of my neighbors' every possession piled up on every block for miles around for several subsequent months so... let's just say I have special insight into just what happens when you touch that stove.) FIND. YOUR. STRENGTH.
posted by sexyrobot at 9:13 PM on October 26, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 9:13 PM on October 26, 2020 [10 favorites]
Sorry if that sounds blunt, but if I, and my bipolar depression, can handle 9 months of total isolation (and looking at what, a minimum of 6 more? Or more?)
Yeah, I am going to spend the holidays 100% alone with no people so that nobody DIES. Everyone's sad and lonely and wanting to see their family. However, that doesn't mean you should actually bloody do it if it's life and death.
You need to sit him down, say that you're really concerned for your wife's life, and that this is life and death if he goes to Florida and then comes back for a month. Either he needs to not go, to move out of your place, or that you are willing to pay for him to quarantine. But just coming back here like everything's Republican is a no-go for your health and safety. Then leave it up to him to choose to move out or take you up on the offer or sensibly not go at all.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:58 PM on October 26, 2020 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I am going to spend the holidays 100% alone with no people so that nobody DIES. Everyone's sad and lonely and wanting to see their family. However, that doesn't mean you should actually bloody do it if it's life and death.
You need to sit him down, say that you're really concerned for your wife's life, and that this is life and death if he goes to Florida and then comes back for a month. Either he needs to not go, to move out of your place, or that you are willing to pay for him to quarantine. But just coming back here like everything's Republican is a no-go for your health and safety. Then leave it up to him to choose to move out or take you up on the offer or sensibly not go at all.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:58 PM on October 26, 2020 [8 favorites]
Yeah we're in MA so it's 30 day notice to quit which is why I think this needs to be dealt with now.
FYI, the CDC put in place a federal eviction ban. I am only familiar with its existence, I do not know the details, but recommend reading it.
Here's some more information from the Massachusetts courts about evictions during Covid.
I'd caution that the actual eviction process can take a long time, and the fact that you are taking even a very reduced amount of rent gives him a lot of protection as a tenant. I get nervous when I see responses above to just not let the guy back in your house, because that might really set you up for a long and unpleasant experience (all while he may very likely continue to live in your house). The idea of paying for him to stay in a hotel for a couple of weeks is a great idea!
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 4:46 AM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
FYI, the CDC put in place a federal eviction ban. I am only familiar with its existence, I do not know the details, but recommend reading it.
Here's some more information from the Massachusetts courts about evictions during Covid.
I'd caution that the actual eviction process can take a long time, and the fact that you are taking even a very reduced amount of rent gives him a lot of protection as a tenant. I get nervous when I see responses above to just not let the guy back in your house, because that might really set you up for a long and unpleasant experience (all while he may very likely continue to live in your house). The idea of paying for him to stay in a hotel for a couple of weeks is a great idea!
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 4:46 AM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
How about a hotel plus a test on day 4, and if that comes back negative he can move back in. Or tests on day 4 and day 5 if you want higher confidence. This is sort of what universities here in Boston have been doing. Ideally with a pretty strict quarantine until the negative test, but if he goes to the store during that time that's not really any more risk for you.
As for whether he'll be partying in his hotel room or whatever, I think there's a certain amount of trust that's inherent to this situation. You can't be monitoring what he does when he leaves the house now either.
posted by serathen at 6:41 AM on October 27, 2020
As for whether he'll be partying in his hotel room or whatever, I think there's a certain amount of trust that's inherent to this situation. You can't be monitoring what he does when he leaves the house now either.
posted by serathen at 6:41 AM on October 27, 2020
Yeah we're in MA
And that makes Florida's per-capita rate of reported active cases about four times your state's. You're completely correct to be concerned about this.
posted by flabdablet at 7:04 AM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
And that makes Florida's per-capita rate of reported active cases about four times your state's. You're completely correct to be concerned about this.
posted by flabdablet at 7:04 AM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
I can't understand why people are so weirdly unconcerned. It's profoundly unsettling. Remember the thing at the beginning where all the anxious people were feeling great for the first time in their lives because finally the world caught up with them and was properly anxious? Looks like that has now worn off completely. Now people are all bizarrely complacent about this thing that's killing and killing and killing, and you get this "ask if he would wear a mask and eat in his room for a day or two after coming back just to calm your nerves" type shit as if nerves were the problem, not the thing that is killing and killing and killing and killing and killing tons of people all day every day all over the continent.
My boss has three or four times since March organized group trips to "Painting with a Twist." She goes to her pub regularly, just as before. She takes little trips around the state. My asthmatic 81-year-old mother rides around town in a car with my brother, neither of them masked, just because she wants to save gas. My boyfriend's sister wants to drive down from Michigan and stay in our guestroom. My friend who works as a social worker face-to-face with dozens of random court-ordered patients a week rides around town unmasked with her unmasked 86-year-old mother and is quite solicitous of me because I am more concerned about the pandemic than anyone she knows and she doesn't want to make me anxious because that would be terrible, you know, if she made me anxious. No concern that she might die or kill her mother or mine or me. Just it would be bad if she didn't follow all my wacky COVID-19 precautions in front of me and I saw a lapse and got upset and my heart rate went up for a few minutes. That would be unconscionable.
And all of this above-described behavior with the exception of the boyfriend's sister in Michigan, this is going on in what state? Florida! The above-described is how sensible people are behaving in Florida. Now consider that most of Florida is to put it charitably not as sensible as that. And a great deal of Florida is Florida Man, spending his spare moments rolling coal and open-carrying around the polling places and licking grocerycart handles in Winn Dixie. You don't need Florida Man living in your house. If he comes down here, he should stay down here. It's his natural habitat.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:44 AM on October 27, 2020 [19 favorites]
My boss has three or four times since March organized group trips to "Painting with a Twist." She goes to her pub regularly, just as before. She takes little trips around the state. My asthmatic 81-year-old mother rides around town in a car with my brother, neither of them masked, just because she wants to save gas. My boyfriend's sister wants to drive down from Michigan and stay in our guestroom. My friend who works as a social worker face-to-face with dozens of random court-ordered patients a week rides around town unmasked with her unmasked 86-year-old mother and is quite solicitous of me because I am more concerned about the pandemic than anyone she knows and she doesn't want to make me anxious because that would be terrible, you know, if she made me anxious. No concern that she might die or kill her mother or mine or me. Just it would be bad if she didn't follow all my wacky COVID-19 precautions in front of me and I saw a lapse and got upset and my heart rate went up for a few minutes. That would be unconscionable.
And all of this above-described behavior with the exception of the boyfriend's sister in Michigan, this is going on in what state? Florida! The above-described is how sensible people are behaving in Florida. Now consider that most of Florida is to put it charitably not as sensible as that. And a great deal of Florida is Florida Man, spending his spare moments rolling coal and open-carrying around the polling places and licking grocerycart handles in Winn Dixie. You don't need Florida Man living in your house. If he comes down here, he should stay down here. It's his natural habitat.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:44 AM on October 27, 2020 [19 favorites]
The eviction moratorium exists to protect tenants from eviction when they can't pay their rent, which would result in them being put out on the street in unsafe conditions. That's not at issue here. He is creating unsafe conditions in your literal home. The only thing the federal eviction moratorium covers if if a tenant can't pay their rent. That's not the case with this guy, he's paying it. The eviction moratorium doesn't apply.
You provide this guy way below market rent and he thanks you by putting your lives at risk? If we were not in a pandemic and you viewed his social connections as payment towards your happiness, I would be shruggo about what you value, live and let live and all that. I am not shruggo about live and let die.
He is already doing and plans to continue doing something extremely shitty - putting you at grave risk - because it suits his needs. He's that guy. The selfish guy who sees his preferences as more important than your safety. It feels insane to me that you're going to pay for him to quarantine for two weeks in a hotel before he moves back into your house as your tenant to continue his unsafe behaviors.
I strongly urge you to protect your family and draw a line here. You say you don't want to be someone to force him into an unsafe living situation, but that's exactly what he's doing to you, without a care in the world, and is willing to financially abuse you too by making you pay for his quarantine in a hotel when he is your paying tenant, and you don't even know and cannot control whether he is going to comply with staying in the hotel for two weeks, for all you know he's going to go out and do risky things without your oversight. Stop thinking about him as your friend and your roommate, you are his landlord and you make the rules of your house especially when it comes to safety. If he breaks them he has to leave.
posted by juniperesque at 9:09 AM on October 27, 2020 [5 favorites]
You provide this guy way below market rent and he thanks you by putting your lives at risk? If we were not in a pandemic and you viewed his social connections as payment towards your happiness, I would be shruggo about what you value, live and let live and all that. I am not shruggo about live and let die.
He is already doing and plans to continue doing something extremely shitty - putting you at grave risk - because it suits his needs. He's that guy. The selfish guy who sees his preferences as more important than your safety. It feels insane to me that you're going to pay for him to quarantine for two weeks in a hotel before he moves back into your house as your tenant to continue his unsafe behaviors.
I strongly urge you to protect your family and draw a line here. You say you don't want to be someone to force him into an unsafe living situation, but that's exactly what he's doing to you, without a care in the world, and is willing to financially abuse you too by making you pay for his quarantine in a hotel when he is your paying tenant, and you don't even know and cannot control whether he is going to comply with staying in the hotel for two weeks, for all you know he's going to go out and do risky things without your oversight. Stop thinking about him as your friend and your roommate, you are his landlord and you make the rules of your house especially when it comes to safety. If he breaks them he has to leave.
posted by juniperesque at 9:09 AM on October 27, 2020 [5 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Let's help OP find a solution while sharing safe information having to do with COVID-19
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:19 AM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:19 AM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
I mean, there are only two possibilities I see
1. he doesn't go (and while this is 100% reasonable, it sounds like you don't want to lay down the law on it)
2. he goes, and does a 14 day quarantine upon return, with a test at the end. this quarantine would basically have to be enforced by you.
Frankly I think he should be hopping up and down in eagerness to accommodate you on #2. It sounds like you want to keep the guy as a part of your household for social reasons, to the point where you are willing to shell out cash to make it happen, so, ok. 14 days in a hotel room is pricy. I would suggest that he rent exclusive use of the cabin for 14 days, with groceries delivered.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:58 AM on October 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
1. he doesn't go (and while this is 100% reasonable, it sounds like you don't want to lay down the law on it)
2. he goes, and does a 14 day quarantine upon return, with a test at the end. this quarantine would basically have to be enforced by you.
Frankly I think he should be hopping up and down in eagerness to accommodate you on #2. It sounds like you want to keep the guy as a part of your household for social reasons, to the point where you are willing to shell out cash to make it happen, so, ok. 14 days in a hotel room is pricy. I would suggest that he rent exclusive use of the cabin for 14 days, with groceries delivered.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:58 AM on October 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
The only thing I know for sure right now is if he does go to Florida I don't want him coming back in the house but I know that's not a good place to start from.
I genuinely don't see why it's not a good place to start from. This person is choosing to assuage their boredom at the very real risk of your wife's health, who is supposedly their friend.
I just wanted to say this because I am seeing a lot of 'poor extroverted people, they're so very very lonely' and it's not like we're in the 1400's and there is no way to communicate with people without breathing in their mouth-fumes.
posted by winna at 5:50 AM on October 28, 2020 [9 favorites]
I genuinely don't see why it's not a good place to start from. This person is choosing to assuage their boredom at the very real risk of your wife's health, who is supposedly their friend.
I just wanted to say this because I am seeing a lot of 'poor extroverted people, they're so very very lonely' and it's not like we're in the 1400's and there is no way to communicate with people without breathing in their mouth-fumes.
posted by winna at 5:50 AM on October 28, 2020 [9 favorites]
Listen, I cannot offer any advice on the level of that which you have already received here. But I must note that I am impressed with your concern for and compassion towards this person.And that my heart goes out to you. All the same, protect your wife and yourself first.
posted by y2karl at 4:08 PM on January 23, 2021
posted by y2karl at 4:08 PM on January 23, 2021
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posted by RoadScholar at 2:33 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]