How to be a mere mortal without losing your mind
September 30, 2020 7:56 PM Subscribe
I’m struggling with a tendency I’ve had for at least the last 15 years, which is to basically use the full capacity of the compendious internet to “self-harm” by looking for information and opinions I not only disagree with, but which are heavily cynical or critical toward myself.
The most recent iteration of this is using online “left” Twitter to find the most extreme ideologues who post content—usually cherry-picked, and quite pseudointellectual, etc.— to basically tear apart myself and my family for being, essentially, too reactionary or bourgeois. (I know, I know. It sounds absurd.) I grew up poor as a young child and working class/low middle class as a teen, then went to college and transitioned into a professional/upper-middle class career. I didn’t have the worst life, but it was significantly less stable/comfortable than most people I went to college with or work with now. I think my guilt around this life trajectory is was recently led me to this need to constantly poke holes in my own beliefs, politics, etc. to make sure I’m not believing anything false, self-serving, etc. The issue is that I always cross the line to a point where I’m no longer fact-checking my own beliefs, or examining other philosophies, but actually seeking out the most abusive takes/people I can find and obsessively trying to mould myself to their tastes.
This is a fake example, but for instance: I might find it insulting that someone says women aren’t good at STEM. So I look up the research, and see that many researchers have found that there are different distributions of STEM-related skills in men and women. I think, OK, there is possibly some relationship between biology and the distribution of math/spatial ability, which is possibly also mediated by history and society, but it’s possible women are less represented in certain fields for essentially biological reasons. But instead of stopping there, I see the type of people who are very invested in pushing the narrative that women are not good at STEM... and the bevy of other opinions that they have. Women are annoying, women destroy rational inquiry by watering down standards... women basically have an outsized negative effect on society. Women don’t deserve rights. Women should be homemakers, should not have the vote, etc. etc. And I start to think more and more, perhaps this is right? Perhaps it’s my bourgeois ideology that prevents me from seeing that women are less than men, and should be subordinate to them. This person is smart enough to understand high-level math and science, so they must be relatively intelligent, I can’t dismiss them as “stupid.” And there’s no rational thought process that carries me forward into this “inquiry,” simply the idea that because I’m sentimentally opposed to these thoughts, I should continue to pursue them, because they MIGHT be true. The fact that it’s painful for me to meditate on them makes them somehow more likely to be true.
If there’s a specific personality espousing these beliefs, I’m even more likely to get into a parasocial relationship with them where I try relentlessly to “please” them (despite not interacting with them at all) by hammering my own beliefs into the shape of theirs. Eventually I recover, and realize that I’ve fully inhabited a belief system that is actually uniquely suited to the insecurities, etc. of the person who originally “triggered” me, and has no inherent truth value. But in trying to escape my own limitations, I embody the limitations of someone else, and it’s always a very immiserating process that leaves me depressed, not eating, staying up until 4am to read someone’s edgy philosophy. The benefit of this is usually that the initial insight— in this fake example, that there is some empirical research measuring some kind of difference of disposition between men and women— is no longer difficult to accept, as it seems mild by comparison.
Notably, as a teenager, I did the same thing to the tune of several months, when I developed an interest in Christianity that slowly became an all-consuming quest to prove to myself that whatever version of Christianity I felt drawn toward was wrong, precisely because I was drawn toward it and it was thus self-flattering. I identified more and more with progressively more fanatical systems of belief, almost like I was choosing the type of Christianity that would be the most painful— the one that said my family wouldn’t be saved, the one that insisted that I evangelize to strangers (something I’m insanely bad at), etc. Basically I ended up obsessively reading the Livejournal of a 55 year old, rural, southern, socially conservative woman with beliefs the mirror opposite of mine. In general, I don’t have any problem with other people having different beliefs— but because her beliefs were so triggering to me, I felt the need to completely, compulsively explore them and continually try to find the floor. I would go to school all day, not pay any attention because I was obsessed with these thoughts, come home and go to my room where I’d read the Bible and look online for more and better proofs that I actually wasn’t saved, that I was wicked, etc.
At this point in my life, I’m not even Christian anymore. I wouldn’t consider myself some hardcore revolutionary leftist. I’m a pretty regular person! But I periodically feel the need to go on this kind of crusade against myself, to finally conclusively understand the sort of person who just [i]hates[/i] me. And when I feel I’ve understood them, I eventually slowly I do let go. In a way, I do sort of “exhaust” the obsession over time, but I inevitably go into a very deep, dark hole of depression and self-neglect, to the point that it’s obviously unhealthy. But when it’s happening, I really can’t stop. I usually end up having a lot of suicidal ideation. It reminds me of accounts I’ve read of cult conditioning, where a person is destabilized, becomes convinced they should cut off their loved ones, etc. (During my Christianity stint, I loved to obsess over Jesus’ directive to love him more than your own father, mother, etc.) But it’s completely self-inflicted, through the internet.
I’ve always found the writings of Flannery O’Connor very triggering in this way (her grace-oriented view of humanity’s relationship to God, that we are essentially brutal hypocrites totally in thrall to the ugliness of life). I don’t want to believe things are that bad— but I can’t convince myself they aren’t. And I go into a spiral. (Similar also to Yates’ Revolutionary Road, where the two suburbanite “intellectuals” need to be taken down a peg by the mentally ill mathematician who points out their various hypocrisies.) In a way, I think it’s better to be how I am than remain deluded... but I also clearly don’t have a strong enough inner core to face these realities without total identity collapse.
I just started seeing a therapist (again) and am hoping to address these issues with her. The problem is that I’ve had therapists in the past, and have never really communicated what I just wrote in this post. I tend to shy away from being truly transparent or vulnerable about these difficulties. I want to overcome this with my current therapist, but I have a hard time even saying any of this in a succinct way within a 45-minute session. Does this sound at all familiar to anyone? Have you found a way to overcome it, or find help? Is there a way I could describe this that would help me get care?
The only times these obsessions have really ruled my life is when I’m totally off any kind of medication. But I’ve never been on much medication at a time— a couple years of 25mg Zoloft was the most medicated I’ve ever been.
The most recent iteration of this is using online “left” Twitter to find the most extreme ideologues who post content—usually cherry-picked, and quite pseudointellectual, etc.— to basically tear apart myself and my family for being, essentially, too reactionary or bourgeois. (I know, I know. It sounds absurd.) I grew up poor as a young child and working class/low middle class as a teen, then went to college and transitioned into a professional/upper-middle class career. I didn’t have the worst life, but it was significantly less stable/comfortable than most people I went to college with or work with now. I think my guilt around this life trajectory is was recently led me to this need to constantly poke holes in my own beliefs, politics, etc. to make sure I’m not believing anything false, self-serving, etc. The issue is that I always cross the line to a point where I’m no longer fact-checking my own beliefs, or examining other philosophies, but actually seeking out the most abusive takes/people I can find and obsessively trying to mould myself to their tastes.
This is a fake example, but for instance: I might find it insulting that someone says women aren’t good at STEM. So I look up the research, and see that many researchers have found that there are different distributions of STEM-related skills in men and women. I think, OK, there is possibly some relationship between biology and the distribution of math/spatial ability, which is possibly also mediated by history and society, but it’s possible women are less represented in certain fields for essentially biological reasons. But instead of stopping there, I see the type of people who are very invested in pushing the narrative that women are not good at STEM... and the bevy of other opinions that they have. Women are annoying, women destroy rational inquiry by watering down standards... women basically have an outsized negative effect on society. Women don’t deserve rights. Women should be homemakers, should not have the vote, etc. etc. And I start to think more and more, perhaps this is right? Perhaps it’s my bourgeois ideology that prevents me from seeing that women are less than men, and should be subordinate to them. This person is smart enough to understand high-level math and science, so they must be relatively intelligent, I can’t dismiss them as “stupid.” And there’s no rational thought process that carries me forward into this “inquiry,” simply the idea that because I’m sentimentally opposed to these thoughts, I should continue to pursue them, because they MIGHT be true. The fact that it’s painful for me to meditate on them makes them somehow more likely to be true.
If there’s a specific personality espousing these beliefs, I’m even more likely to get into a parasocial relationship with them where I try relentlessly to “please” them (despite not interacting with them at all) by hammering my own beliefs into the shape of theirs. Eventually I recover, and realize that I’ve fully inhabited a belief system that is actually uniquely suited to the insecurities, etc. of the person who originally “triggered” me, and has no inherent truth value. But in trying to escape my own limitations, I embody the limitations of someone else, and it’s always a very immiserating process that leaves me depressed, not eating, staying up until 4am to read someone’s edgy philosophy. The benefit of this is usually that the initial insight— in this fake example, that there is some empirical research measuring some kind of difference of disposition between men and women— is no longer difficult to accept, as it seems mild by comparison.
Notably, as a teenager, I did the same thing to the tune of several months, when I developed an interest in Christianity that slowly became an all-consuming quest to prove to myself that whatever version of Christianity I felt drawn toward was wrong, precisely because I was drawn toward it and it was thus self-flattering. I identified more and more with progressively more fanatical systems of belief, almost like I was choosing the type of Christianity that would be the most painful— the one that said my family wouldn’t be saved, the one that insisted that I evangelize to strangers (something I’m insanely bad at), etc. Basically I ended up obsessively reading the Livejournal of a 55 year old, rural, southern, socially conservative woman with beliefs the mirror opposite of mine. In general, I don’t have any problem with other people having different beliefs— but because her beliefs were so triggering to me, I felt the need to completely, compulsively explore them and continually try to find the floor. I would go to school all day, not pay any attention because I was obsessed with these thoughts, come home and go to my room where I’d read the Bible and look online for more and better proofs that I actually wasn’t saved, that I was wicked, etc.
At this point in my life, I’m not even Christian anymore. I wouldn’t consider myself some hardcore revolutionary leftist. I’m a pretty regular person! But I periodically feel the need to go on this kind of crusade against myself, to finally conclusively understand the sort of person who just [i]hates[/i] me. And when I feel I’ve understood them, I eventually slowly I do let go. In a way, I do sort of “exhaust” the obsession over time, but I inevitably go into a very deep, dark hole of depression and self-neglect, to the point that it’s obviously unhealthy. But when it’s happening, I really can’t stop. I usually end up having a lot of suicidal ideation. It reminds me of accounts I’ve read of cult conditioning, where a person is destabilized, becomes convinced they should cut off their loved ones, etc. (During my Christianity stint, I loved to obsess over Jesus’ directive to love him more than your own father, mother, etc.) But it’s completely self-inflicted, through the internet.
I’ve always found the writings of Flannery O’Connor very triggering in this way (her grace-oriented view of humanity’s relationship to God, that we are essentially brutal hypocrites totally in thrall to the ugliness of life). I don’t want to believe things are that bad— but I can’t convince myself they aren’t. And I go into a spiral. (Similar also to Yates’ Revolutionary Road, where the two suburbanite “intellectuals” need to be taken down a peg by the mentally ill mathematician who points out their various hypocrisies.) In a way, I think it’s better to be how I am than remain deluded... but I also clearly don’t have a strong enough inner core to face these realities without total identity collapse.
I just started seeing a therapist (again) and am hoping to address these issues with her. The problem is that I’ve had therapists in the past, and have never really communicated what I just wrote in this post. I tend to shy away from being truly transparent or vulnerable about these difficulties. I want to overcome this with my current therapist, but I have a hard time even saying any of this in a succinct way within a 45-minute session. Does this sound at all familiar to anyone? Have you found a way to overcome it, or find help? Is there a way I could describe this that would help me get care?
The only times these obsessions have really ruled my life is when I’m totally off any kind of medication. But I’ve never been on much medication at a time— a couple years of 25mg Zoloft was the most medicated I’ve ever been.
This is a much bigger issue than my puny comment can respond to, but is this why people subscribe to ethical or moral outlooks? Rather than see characteristics in terms of ideology - bourgeois etc - they position them according to ethical dimensions.
posted by Thella at 8:58 PM on September 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Thella at 8:58 PM on September 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
Best answer: A lot of this social science type of stuff are things that can’t easily be proven. There are maybe trends and findings, but in your example, we will never know for sure exactly how much biology vs upbringing vs society vs whatever plays into it. So I wonder if when you start going down this path, you could practice meditation or mindfulness on these thoughts: is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?
In this case you would say to yourself, you don’t know if it’s true, know one actually does, so move on. Is it necessary? In your example there is no necessary reason to say that women are worse at STEM then men. Even if we biologically were, plenty of women are still great at it and there is no necessary reason to go about proving that maybe we’re biologically a little worse at it! And is it kind? Of course not! So at this point stop yourself, take a few deep breaths, and meditate on the fact that it doesn’t matter if it’s true, because it’s not necessary or kind. It could be true or false, doesn’t make a difference. It’s not worth your time to figure out if it’s true, because it’s not also necessary and kind.
Obviously this is a little simple but it might help you to reframe your thoughts and what you want to spend your time on.
It’s hard to tell from your question if this would help in the real rabbit holes you go down, but even if not I would suggest looking into meditation/mindfulness, or proven habit-breaking tricks to get out of this. Maybe even check out therapy or CBT depending on how often/deep this is an issue for you.
(And as this seems tied up in your own worldview and sense of self, is it kind can be is it kind to/about me?)
posted by sillysally at 8:59 PM on September 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
In this case you would say to yourself, you don’t know if it’s true, know one actually does, so move on. Is it necessary? In your example there is no necessary reason to say that women are worse at STEM then men. Even if we biologically were, plenty of women are still great at it and there is no necessary reason to go about proving that maybe we’re biologically a little worse at it! And is it kind? Of course not! So at this point stop yourself, take a few deep breaths, and meditate on the fact that it doesn’t matter if it’s true, because it’s not necessary or kind. It could be true or false, doesn’t make a difference. It’s not worth your time to figure out if it’s true, because it’s not also necessary and kind.
Obviously this is a little simple but it might help you to reframe your thoughts and what you want to spend your time on.
It’s hard to tell from your question if this would help in the real rabbit holes you go down, but even if not I would suggest looking into meditation/mindfulness, or proven habit-breaking tricks to get out of this. Maybe even check out therapy or CBT depending on how often/deep this is an issue for you.
(And as this seems tied up in your own worldview and sense of self, is it kind can be is it kind to/about me?)
posted by sillysally at 8:59 PM on September 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Yeah, I've been there. It's been a while since it was really bad for me, but I'll find myself deliberately seeking out the unkindest stuff that's being said about people in [some group I belong to] and half-convincing myself that it's true, or - even if I don't believe it at all, there's some itch I'm trying to scratch by reading all the worst things that are being said about [some group I belong to].
"Digital self-harm" is a thing. It's usually used to refer to people cyber-bullying themselves by writing cruel messages to themselves, but... I think that this is an understudied form of digital self-harm, and I think that it happens for the same reasons that bodily self-harm happens: in part, at least, it's an attempt to turn inchoate internal pain into concrete, specific, visible external pain. This pain I'm in at least makes sense if I can trace it back to this external evidence (no matter how bad the external evidence is.)
The way I've come to think about these thoughts is this:
I can't know if, say, a particularly hateful version of Christianity is true.
There's not enough evidence out there that's ever going to prove it one way or the other to my satisfaction.
I like the values that I live by. I wouldn't want to live in a world where a particularly hateful version of Christianity is true. So - given everything we can't know about morality and the universe, there's no advantage in switching to some stricter or crueler set of beliefs. It's not more rigorous just because it feels more rigorous, it's not helpful in terms of my own human flourishing.
In practical terms: it's just mindfulness. It's noticing that you're doing the thing and saying "Oh, hey, I'm doing the thing" and then finding something else to do that isn't reading internet content that's going to feed my anxieties and my self-doubt. And if you have that thought of "But I NEED to know this," you just gently remind yourself that you don't.
I do think it might help to talk about this with your therapist. Would it help you to write it down first?
posted by Jeanne at 9:08 PM on September 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
"Digital self-harm" is a thing. It's usually used to refer to people cyber-bullying themselves by writing cruel messages to themselves, but... I think that this is an understudied form of digital self-harm, and I think that it happens for the same reasons that bodily self-harm happens: in part, at least, it's an attempt to turn inchoate internal pain into concrete, specific, visible external pain. This pain I'm in at least makes sense if I can trace it back to this external evidence (no matter how bad the external evidence is.)
The way I've come to think about these thoughts is this:
I can't know if, say, a particularly hateful version of Christianity is true.
There's not enough evidence out there that's ever going to prove it one way or the other to my satisfaction.
I like the values that I live by. I wouldn't want to live in a world where a particularly hateful version of Christianity is true. So - given everything we can't know about morality and the universe, there's no advantage in switching to some stricter or crueler set of beliefs. It's not more rigorous just because it feels more rigorous, it's not helpful in terms of my own human flourishing.
In practical terms: it's just mindfulness. It's noticing that you're doing the thing and saying "Oh, hey, I'm doing the thing" and then finding something else to do that isn't reading internet content that's going to feed my anxieties and my self-doubt. And if you have that thought of "But I NEED to know this," you just gently remind yourself that you don't.
I do think it might help to talk about this with your therapist. Would it help you to write it down first?
posted by Jeanne at 9:08 PM on September 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Yes, have had that experience - I once went on a Google around my cultural background, and ended up deep in the neo-Nazi weeds. It was similar, I was trying to uncover their deepest thoughts on people from my culture. I’m pretty sure I was selecting results that confirmed my worst self-loathing thoughts around ethnicity and identity. Some part of me went “aha, that’s what we’re like, it’s true” and felt at once wounded and *satisfied* because yep there was my dissonance resolved. (Yeah I don’t recommend this exercise.)
The people on those forums are so successful at persuading each other of their ideas because they sound confident and authoritative. Black and white thinkers, true believers (like DT and his fans) often do, and it can be seductive if you’re cruising for a bruising. (But those people are usually *skewed*, they are not worth listening to, despite their apparent certainty they aren’t offering any truth or value. Remember this.)
All I can say about that is, I don’t go looking for condemnation like that anymore.
Just don’t go there. You put that kind of garbage into your mind, it’s only normal for garbage to come out. I don’t know that taking on some of it is necessarily pathological, we’re mimetic & story-seeking creatures, it’s only natural to be drawn in by something that puts our selves at stake. Facebook was designed to hook us in in comparable ways, and they’re doing very well.
So, ban it. (I think some celebrities do the same with criticism of their work, they just refuse to read it.) If you’re wanting to explore these ideas, go to places where thoughtful discussion happens. Or fill your brain with positive representations of working class people - and of people who’ve navigated the inherent strain of upward social mobility.
Address insomnia and general anxiety with your doctor.
Finally, in your actual life, reach out to others who’ve got similar kinds of histories for support and validation (and maybe commiseration).
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:11 PM on September 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
The people on those forums are so successful at persuading each other of their ideas because they sound confident and authoritative. Black and white thinkers, true believers (like DT and his fans) often do, and it can be seductive if you’re cruising for a bruising. (But those people are usually *skewed*, they are not worth listening to, despite their apparent certainty they aren’t offering any truth or value. Remember this.)
All I can say about that is, I don’t go looking for condemnation like that anymore.
Just don’t go there. You put that kind of garbage into your mind, it’s only normal for garbage to come out. I don’t know that taking on some of it is necessarily pathological, we’re mimetic & story-seeking creatures, it’s only natural to be drawn in by something that puts our selves at stake. Facebook was designed to hook us in in comparable ways, and they’re doing very well.
So, ban it. (I think some celebrities do the same with criticism of their work, they just refuse to read it.) If you’re wanting to explore these ideas, go to places where thoughtful discussion happens. Or fill your brain with positive representations of working class people - and of people who’ve navigated the inherent strain of upward social mobility.
Address insomnia and general anxiety with your doctor.
Finally, in your actual life, reach out to others who’ve got similar kinds of histories for support and validation (and maybe commiseration).
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:11 PM on September 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
Best answer: You seem to be struggling with issues of identity. I wonder if you carry a great deal of shame and doubt which has prevented you from feeling really secure in your identity and having a strong sense of self. Without the anchor of a sense of identity, the world can feel pretty chaotic, as if you're pulled in lots of different directions.
If you want to read more about this and how it's treated, look up identity diffusion. You're not the only person who feels this way. This is really best treated in therapy, but if you were my client (IANYT) I would start with finding meaning in your life and keeping sort of a classification system of what you tend to find meaningful, and supporting you to observe patterns about what you find meaningful, and at the same time working on observing how your thoughts, feelings, and mental processes impact your behaviour and teasing these things apart.
In terms of the actual action of looking up stuff you find distressing, I would be curious about what is going on for you immediately before you do this, and what role it serves in your life, even if there is no "rational thought process" that leads you to do it.
posted by unstrungharp at 9:12 PM on September 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
If you want to read more about this and how it's treated, look up identity diffusion. You're not the only person who feels this way. This is really best treated in therapy, but if you were my client (IANYT) I would start with finding meaning in your life and keeping sort of a classification system of what you tend to find meaningful, and supporting you to observe patterns about what you find meaningful, and at the same time working on observing how your thoughts, feelings, and mental processes impact your behaviour and teasing these things apart.
In terms of the actual action of looking up stuff you find distressing, I would be curious about what is going on for you immediately before you do this, and what role it serves in your life, even if there is no "rational thought process" that leads you to do it.
posted by unstrungharp at 9:12 PM on September 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Do you find you are most inclined to do this exploration when you are feeling best about yourself? When life seems really good? I’m wondering if this is, at its heart, an esteem issue. At some level, if you don’t feel you have accomplished what you have because of work or you think you’re not good enough to deserve good things, then, when things are going well, perhaps you are inclined to look for the things to prove to yourself that you are really bad. Because externally you are successful. Only these Internet straw men can see through your exterior. Is that it at all?
Yes, talk to your therapist about this. It’s not uncommon.
I’d say the thing to do is to to get to a place where you are past black and white thinking. There’s not a right and a wrong. Seemingly contradictory things can all be true because not of them are truths, but perspectives.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:18 PM on September 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
Yes, talk to your therapist about this. It’s not uncommon.
I’d say the thing to do is to to get to a place where you are past black and white thinking. There’s not a right and a wrong. Seemingly contradictory things can all be true because not of them are truths, but perspectives.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:18 PM on September 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I’m interested in what specifically happens during the part where you write “eventually I recover.” What, specifically, has happened when your thinking shifts?
I ask, because I’ve also experienced trying to mold myself to please people who set themselves up as authorities, who take extreme and “challenging” stances in (at least purported) service of some cause I find worthwhile, and who judge everyone and find them wanting — and who eventually become actually emotionally abusive.
It definitely feels like the more painful it is, the more true it must be. They’re so sure and so clear about it, so it must be me who is wrong! They must understand key truths that I do not! The very fact that it upsets me is proof that I lack understanding! I must apprentice myself to learn what they know!
How I pull out of it: Eventually, they demand that I completely deny reality, things that I experienced myself, that I have real evidence for, and could not have misinterpreted. I mean, things like “We never had that conversation” when the messages are saved right here and I am looking at them. To believe that they were right, I would have to believe that I was completely delusional. And I’m more afraid of losing my mind than of displeasing authority. It’s really painful and traumatic to break with this person I’ve tried so hard to please, this person I’ve placed so much trust in — but I have to do it, or else completely lose myself.
I’ve had two major instances of this happen, once with a significant other and once with an online activist community. The pain and trauma were enough the second time so that now, I emotionally avoid people who set themselves up as perfect authorities like that — judging and “correcting” other people in a certain way that makes it clear they believe they have all the right answers. All the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, and I just nope right out. I’ve started viewing them as threats to my integrity, rather than as people it’s my job to please.
You say something about how, when you feel like you fully understand the philosophy, you can let it go. What makes you feel like you’ve fully understood? Is there any way to get there while still keeping a sense of emotional detachment from the philosophy?
Are there any patterns or commonalities between these philosophies? Phrases that people use? Maybe there’s a “tell” you can start to recognize that will let you know “This isn’t worth digging in to understand — it will just cause me pain and not give me any enlightenment, and it won’t make me better or kinder.”
You don’t have to answer here, or even to yourself if you don’t find these questions useful. I might be way off-base! My experiences may have nothing at all to do with yours. I am not a psychologist or a therapist and I have no authority. I’m just some person on the Internet. So is everyone else.
posted by snowmentality at 9:46 PM on September 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
I ask, because I’ve also experienced trying to mold myself to please people who set themselves up as authorities, who take extreme and “challenging” stances in (at least purported) service of some cause I find worthwhile, and who judge everyone and find them wanting — and who eventually become actually emotionally abusive.
It definitely feels like the more painful it is, the more true it must be. They’re so sure and so clear about it, so it must be me who is wrong! They must understand key truths that I do not! The very fact that it upsets me is proof that I lack understanding! I must apprentice myself to learn what they know!
How I pull out of it: Eventually, they demand that I completely deny reality, things that I experienced myself, that I have real evidence for, and could not have misinterpreted. I mean, things like “We never had that conversation” when the messages are saved right here and I am looking at them. To believe that they were right, I would have to believe that I was completely delusional. And I’m more afraid of losing my mind than of displeasing authority. It’s really painful and traumatic to break with this person I’ve tried so hard to please, this person I’ve placed so much trust in — but I have to do it, or else completely lose myself.
I’ve had two major instances of this happen, once with a significant other and once with an online activist community. The pain and trauma were enough the second time so that now, I emotionally avoid people who set themselves up as perfect authorities like that — judging and “correcting” other people in a certain way that makes it clear they believe they have all the right answers. All the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, and I just nope right out. I’ve started viewing them as threats to my integrity, rather than as people it’s my job to please.
You say something about how, when you feel like you fully understand the philosophy, you can let it go. What makes you feel like you’ve fully understood? Is there any way to get there while still keeping a sense of emotional detachment from the philosophy?
Are there any patterns or commonalities between these philosophies? Phrases that people use? Maybe there’s a “tell” you can start to recognize that will let you know “This isn’t worth digging in to understand — it will just cause me pain and not give me any enlightenment, and it won’t make me better or kinder.”
You don’t have to answer here, or even to yourself if you don’t find these questions useful. I might be way off-base! My experiences may have nothing at all to do with yours. I am not a psychologist or a therapist and I have no authority. I’m just some person on the Internet. So is everyone else.
posted by snowmentality at 9:46 PM on September 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
Best answer: A very quick suggestion to help you bring this up to your therapist - you could read them this post, or print it out and give to them to read. Then you don’t have to do anything else, as far as deciding what to say, it’s already done.
posted by sumiami at 10:22 PM on September 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by sumiami at 10:22 PM on September 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Thank you for this post, I feel like I could have written it myself. I am a single, early-30s cis woman who lives in the Bay Area and works in tech, or, as the people whose Twitter posts I read in a secret, shameful, self-harming way would put it, I am an "AWFL"—an Affluent White Female Liberal whose elitism and prejudice is destroying America. For the last couple of years, I've been engaging in behavior like you describe (perhaps we've been scrolling some of the same accounts!), doing the whole "do I believe in women's rights and secular humanism because I actually believe those things or because I've been brainwashed by living in a liberal bubble?" thing.
The funny thing is that during the time I've been engaging in this harm-seeking Internet behavior, I've been making lifestyle choices that have objectively made my life better--even as they are the kinds of choices that these Twitter commentators would most condemn. I switched from a lower-paying industry into a STEM career; I got my own bachelorette pad and have been enjoying the life of an "atomized urban liberal." I've always been the sort of person who second-guessed my choices and doubted myself a lot, and all I can think is that my weird, self-sabotaging brain has taken it to the next level by seeking out these kinds of Internet opinions to undercut me just when I should really be coming into my own.
Some actual things I've tried to kick the habit:
--Unfollowing these accounts on Twitter, or if I've already unfollowed, asking myself "What if your finger accidentally slipped and you liked or retweeted one of these tweets about repealing the 19th Amendment and all your friends saw?" Use cancel culture and anxiety to your advantage!
--Pledging to give up this kind of doomscrolling/seeking of self-harming information for Lent. Like you, I don't really consider myself a Christian, but some of my Christian upbringing has stuck with me enough to make Lenten resolutions and value this yearly ritual.
--Talking about it one time with one very close, very trusted friend. Even though this felt very scary and vulnerable to do! But because bad habits can't be broken with a single conversation and I don't feel like I can ask my friend to discuss this with me several times a month, I think it would indeed be helpful to discuss this regularly with a therapist.
Really, though, I think COVID isolation has probably exacerbated this tendency of ours to seek out horrible opinions on the Internet. Think about it: humans are social animals, and we evolved in an environment of constant overt and subconscious feedback from our peers and associates. We are always comparing ourselves to other people that we know, trying to determine if we fit in and if we are "doing it right". But with the reduction in in-person social interaction, we no longer get as much of this feedback, so we go seeking it out online. And harsh and difficult feedback can feel like it must be more true than positive feedback—criticism sinks deeper into our heart than encouragement does.
And this is a real shame, because probably the best antidote for any of this is to foster real-life connections with people you admire and wish to mutually support. Like, if you step back from these anonymous Twitter accounts and think about the women you know IRL, they're probably pretty great, right? Many of them are kind, many of them are intelligent, many of them are good at STEM. They are not perfect, and being a feminist doesn't mean you need to think every woman is a flawless goddess, but they are human beings trying their best. And they may be unhappy or have struggles—2020 has been a difficult year for everybody—but they are probably not caricatures of miserable, bitter bitches.
Basically, I think the more conversation and feedback you can get from people who are already part of your daily life, the less you will be inclined to go seeking it out online. You write that you consider this a form of approval-seeking behavior ("a parasocial relationship where I try relentlessly to “please” them") and I'm not sure if people-pleasing tendencies are ever really ideal, but if you have them, could you direct them to a worthier object? (A mentor or an older friend whose life resembles a life you'd like to have.) And I know that I, too, am just an Internet stranger, but to counter the negative feedback you've been seeking out, I will reiterate: you did a good thing to ask this question, you sound thoughtful and open to change (because you are so open to new ideas), and you definitely deserve the right to vote.
posted by clair-de-lune at 10:41 PM on September 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
The funny thing is that during the time I've been engaging in this harm-seeking Internet behavior, I've been making lifestyle choices that have objectively made my life better--even as they are the kinds of choices that these Twitter commentators would most condemn. I switched from a lower-paying industry into a STEM career; I got my own bachelorette pad and have been enjoying the life of an "atomized urban liberal." I've always been the sort of person who second-guessed my choices and doubted myself a lot, and all I can think is that my weird, self-sabotaging brain has taken it to the next level by seeking out these kinds of Internet opinions to undercut me just when I should really be coming into my own.
Some actual things I've tried to kick the habit:
--Unfollowing these accounts on Twitter, or if I've already unfollowed, asking myself "What if your finger accidentally slipped and you liked or retweeted one of these tweets about repealing the 19th Amendment and all your friends saw?" Use cancel culture and anxiety to your advantage!
--Pledging to give up this kind of doomscrolling/seeking of self-harming information for Lent. Like you, I don't really consider myself a Christian, but some of my Christian upbringing has stuck with me enough to make Lenten resolutions and value this yearly ritual.
--Talking about it one time with one very close, very trusted friend. Even though this felt very scary and vulnerable to do! But because bad habits can't be broken with a single conversation and I don't feel like I can ask my friend to discuss this with me several times a month, I think it would indeed be helpful to discuss this regularly with a therapist.
Really, though, I think COVID isolation has probably exacerbated this tendency of ours to seek out horrible opinions on the Internet. Think about it: humans are social animals, and we evolved in an environment of constant overt and subconscious feedback from our peers and associates. We are always comparing ourselves to other people that we know, trying to determine if we fit in and if we are "doing it right". But with the reduction in in-person social interaction, we no longer get as much of this feedback, so we go seeking it out online. And harsh and difficult feedback can feel like it must be more true than positive feedback—criticism sinks deeper into our heart than encouragement does.
And this is a real shame, because probably the best antidote for any of this is to foster real-life connections with people you admire and wish to mutually support. Like, if you step back from these anonymous Twitter accounts and think about the women you know IRL, they're probably pretty great, right? Many of them are kind, many of them are intelligent, many of them are good at STEM. They are not perfect, and being a feminist doesn't mean you need to think every woman is a flawless goddess, but they are human beings trying their best. And they may be unhappy or have struggles—2020 has been a difficult year for everybody—but they are probably not caricatures of miserable, bitter bitches.
Basically, I think the more conversation and feedback you can get from people who are already part of your daily life, the less you will be inclined to go seeking it out online. You write that you consider this a form of approval-seeking behavior ("a parasocial relationship where I try relentlessly to “please” them") and I'm not sure if people-pleasing tendencies are ever really ideal, but if you have them, could you direct them to a worthier object? (A mentor or an older friend whose life resembles a life you'd like to have.) And I know that I, too, am just an Internet stranger, but to counter the negative feedback you've been seeking out, I will reiterate: you did a good thing to ask this question, you sound thoughtful and open to change (because you are so open to new ideas), and you definitely deserve the right to vote.
posted by clair-de-lune at 10:41 PM on September 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I feel your distress at this, but at the same time, to this perpetual outsider your ability to immerse yourself in an alien and basically inimical belief system and not drown or come out sputtering and gasping for breath, but actually grow gills and live it also looks rare and precious. And to top it all off, you are not utterly lost or consumed; your true identity ultimately reasserts itself instead and you emerge essentially unscathed.
I could better understand your unhappiness if the process is in some sense compelled. Would you say it might serve as protective coloration? Where you fit in with belief systems of people who are hostile to you and yours in order to keep from being attacked?
In that case, you could orient your therapy toward developing a sense of safety and a conviction that you have a right to be who you really are without regard to others' beliefs — which I realize is far easier said than done, and could even be dangerous.
posted by jamjam at 10:43 PM on September 30, 2020
I could better understand your unhappiness if the process is in some sense compelled. Would you say it might serve as protective coloration? Where you fit in with belief systems of people who are hostile to you and yours in order to keep from being attacked?
In that case, you could orient your therapy toward developing a sense of safety and a conviction that you have a right to be who you really are without regard to others' beliefs — which I realize is far easier said than done, and could even be dangerous.
posted by jamjam at 10:43 PM on September 30, 2020
Best answer: The more I read your description the more it reminded me of OCD - the compulsive behavior, the intrusive insistent thoughts. I think you should send or hand this to your therapist. There's a lot of feeling and intensity that comes through that would be easy to understate or gloss over in person, and would lead your therapist down the wrong road.
posted by Lady Li at 12:23 AM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Lady Li at 12:23 AM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Yes, this sounds like a version of OCD or intense anxiety, and I would explore it that way.
As you point out, medication might really help. I'm not medicated, but the most intensely anxious/obsessive I was came when I was pregnant, and it was incredible to me to see how -- at a certain juncture when the hormones shift -- it suddenly became easier to not obsess, overnight. What that might feel like, taking your example, is that you'd still know that this person believes women aren't that good at STEM, but you just wouldn't care as much, the thought would be more remote, and maybe you'd even Google a few studies, but then you'd get distracted or tired and just say "ah who cares about those jerks." I'd been developing all these coping skills and then within a matter of 2-3 weeks, I stopped having to ever call on them. So you might see whether medication can achieve that for you, which it sounds like it might. You might also look into other ways that your biology might be making a difference (like how I'm WAY more anxious when I'm sleep deprived).
Sometimes it's easiest to honor that my brain just has its own process. Especially if there is some way to reduce the intensity of these quests, maybe you could just accept that you go through them and that you do come out on the other end. Can you accommodate yourself better? Example: certain triggers make me want to read all the science on something. It's a problem if I stay up all night doing that. If I can notice it's starting quick enough to, well, in pre-COVID times, to get a babysitter and do it after work, then it's less of a problem.
posted by slidell at 1:19 AM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
As you point out, medication might really help. I'm not medicated, but the most intensely anxious/obsessive I was came when I was pregnant, and it was incredible to me to see how -- at a certain juncture when the hormones shift -- it suddenly became easier to not obsess, overnight. What that might feel like, taking your example, is that you'd still know that this person believes women aren't that good at STEM, but you just wouldn't care as much, the thought would be more remote, and maybe you'd even Google a few studies, but then you'd get distracted or tired and just say "ah who cares about those jerks." I'd been developing all these coping skills and then within a matter of 2-3 weeks, I stopped having to ever call on them. So you might see whether medication can achieve that for you, which it sounds like it might. You might also look into other ways that your biology might be making a difference (like how I'm WAY more anxious when I'm sleep deprived).
Sometimes it's easiest to honor that my brain just has its own process. Especially if there is some way to reduce the intensity of these quests, maybe you could just accept that you go through them and that you do come out on the other end. Can you accommodate yourself better? Example: certain triggers make me want to read all the science on something. It's a problem if I stay up all night doing that. If I can notice it's starting quick enough to, well, in pre-COVID times, to get a babysitter and do it after work, then it's less of a problem.
posted by slidell at 1:19 AM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Sounds a lot like rumination/compulsive thinking, so maybe this would help?
posted by monkeys with typewriters at 8:52 AM on October 1, 2020
posted by monkeys with typewriters at 8:52 AM on October 1, 2020
Best answer: I have OCD. I don’t have this compulsion but it 1000% sounds like OCD to me, and I do have a friend who has OCD who has had similar compulsions at times.
I definitely agree therapy and meds. The things that have made the most difference for me were A) working with a university psychiatry department’s OCD clinic to try a LOT of different meds until I found the right med and dose for me (soooo annoying to do but so so SO worth it) and B) finding a therapist for weekly appointments who specializes in OCD. I saw several before that who listed OCD as something they covered but really had no special knowledge or tools - one actually told me things that were actively worse for my OCD. If you’re in California and want a rec, MeMail me. Also happy to talk more via MeMail if it’s useful.
Also, you might look into the idea of “fawning” (essentially extreme people pleasing) as a CPTSD response (Pete Walker writes books and Sam Dylan Finch posts about this on Instagram) and also the term scrupulosity for any religious compulsions (it’s a subtype of OCD that you can have in addition to other subtypes, and there are several books written about it).
OCD is so hard and exhausting to deal with - hang in there, this internet stranger is rooting for you.
posted by bananacabana at 12:34 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
I definitely agree therapy and meds. The things that have made the most difference for me were A) working with a university psychiatry department’s OCD clinic to try a LOT of different meds until I found the right med and dose for me (soooo annoying to do but so so SO worth it) and B) finding a therapist for weekly appointments who specializes in OCD. I saw several before that who listed OCD as something they covered but really had no special knowledge or tools - one actually told me things that were actively worse for my OCD. If you’re in California and want a rec, MeMail me. Also happy to talk more via MeMail if it’s useful.
Also, you might look into the idea of “fawning” (essentially extreme people pleasing) as a CPTSD response (Pete Walker writes books and Sam Dylan Finch posts about this on Instagram) and also the term scrupulosity for any religious compulsions (it’s a subtype of OCD that you can have in addition to other subtypes, and there are several books written about it).
OCD is so hard and exhausting to deal with - hang in there, this internet stranger is rooting for you.
posted by bananacabana at 12:34 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
Oh, and in terms of struggling talking to your therapist - I have the same issue. Something I’ve started doing is texting my therapist when I’m in the middle of the spiral and just can’t do it anymore - I say “hey, I’m really struggling with [topic]. Can you ask me about it at our next appointment and don’t let me just say ‘I’m fine’?” It holds me accountable to actually address the thing even if several days later it’s not feeling urgent or my OCD says I’m not allowed to talk about it. Highly recommend - you could even c/p your whole question into a text or email and preface with “I think we need to talk about this next time, please make sure we do” so you make it clear A) it’s something you need to address even if it’s uncomfortable and B) your therapist doesn’t need to respond on his/her own time because you’ll talk about it at a set time. Good luck!
posted by bananacabana at 12:38 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by bananacabana at 12:38 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
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posted by stoneandstar at 7:58 PM on September 30, 2020 [2 favorites]