Is it ok (ethical?) to live in China long-term?
September 16, 2020 7:08 AM Subscribe
It's an authoritarian country engaging in cultural genocide. But on the other hand...I'm an American, so...heh. Trying to parse how much responsibility I have to take these things into account when figuring out what country to live in, because on the small-scale, my wife and I are quite happy here.
I'm going to try and focus just on critical details otherwise this is going to end up being a very long message. I've posted some questions in the past about thinking about where to move... I'm an American currently living in China, married to a Chinese national. We do not want kids. I do not want to move back to America if at all possible. I believe, fairly reasonably, that I can move to Canada if I want to (I'm an experienced programmer -- in fact I already got one job offer in Canada, but turned it down for health reasons and because I feel wary about moving in the middle of the pandemic, especially when our life here feels quite safe compared to literally everyone else I know).
Basically, my wife and I have thought a lot about where we would want to live outside of China...but we really quite like our life in the small (by Chinese standards :), inconsequential city we live in. I speak fluent Mandarin and while there are aspects of life here that I do not like, most of them are big picture, namely...an authoritarian one party country with very weak civil liberties, especially for me. Plus the cultural genocide being perpetrated against Uighyrs. On the other hand, the US has so much bullshit, and everyone I know just sort of...keeps living there. They protest, which of course is not really an option in China, and makes a big difference.
Our plan was previous to wait out the pandemic and then for me to try and get a job in Canada (which again, I feel pretty confident I can do), but there are a couple of factors making me question that. One: we really do like the life we have here. The big picture issues aside, it feels like a sustainable life. It's certainly the happiest I've ever been in my life (I've moved around a lot as an adult). The downside is that my work situation is tricky. I currently have no income, but my wife has a very stable job as a teacher. She will never make a ton of money, but we have enough. I have some savings if stuff comes up, but at some point I'll have to figure out income. I can either try to work online, which has a lot of complications (time zone, authoritarian country with no real functioning rule of law), or...teach english, which actually would pay enough to basically cement the life that we want, though it'd be a gigantic step down in pay from programming and be a bit of a hit to my ego, though I'm pretty good at overcoming stuff like that.
Another complicating factor re: work is that I've had a pretty bad RSI flareup...I'm taking the steps necessary to deal with it, but the truth is I've been _very_ careful for the last decade about how I use computers (ergonomic setup, taking regular breaks, etc)...and I'm not sure that I have 30+ years of computer use left in my body. It's extremely painful to say that, but something to think about. My wife has essentially a tenure teaching job which will also provide a pension, though again, nothing crazy. Basically her income is enough that we live happily here, but if we want anything more (say an international trip a year, visits back to the US for me, buying a house), I will need some income, though even the income from teaching (compared to programming) would be enough.
Another issue is that, essentially, every year we stay here I will have to re-apply for a spousal visa. Assuming nothing crazy happens there's no real reason to think I won't get it, but still...it sucks to know that my wife and I could be separated for geopolitical reasons. If we immigrated to Canada (or the US, god help me), we could at least have the goal of having the same passport one day (though honestly I don't know that my wife would ultimately be willing to renounce her Chinese citizenship...she is conflicted and isn't really sure what she'd choose, it'd probably depend on her experience living abroad).
Right now, we've started considering just...pushing back the plans to move. My wife is ok with me not having an income (though I'd like to have one at some point!). I feel like here I have the life I've always wanted, and if we leave, we will always be chasing that life. But it's not an uncomplicated choice to stay. My current thinking is just sort of..."wait and see," but if we want to do something like, say, buy a house...well, again, I don't know how to think about the political reality of China. The truth is that, barring geopolitical changes (which are not altogether without possibility!), I feel like I'm safe in a "security through obscurity" sort of way. Of course, it sucks to know that the state could come for me and I'd have very little if any rights...but then I think about how black people are treated in the US :/
Also, I'm the only person I know who seems to think about this stuff when thinking about where to live so my friends don't really have a lot to offer when talking about the subject except a sort of "oh, yeah, I never really thought about leaving America...".
Another detail which may be relevant may be not: my wife is totally open to moving abroad, and partly sees it as an adventure. But I think she has always been somewhat apprehensive about what she would do for work, and also how well she would acclimate. She's an upbeat, positive person so I think she would be fine...but I think it would be very hard for her to find as good a job as the one she has now. Right now she has a job as a teacher which, in China, confers _a lot_ more respect than it does in America, at least. She has relaxed hours (she works 2-3 hours a day), makes a middle class wage, will get a pension, and can do 1:1 tutoring if she wants to bolster her income. As such, we have a pretty incredible lifestyle, get to spend a ton of time with each other and she has minimal work stress. She is not a super diligent stuff, so outside of the country I think it would not be easy for her to find a good gig...I think in time she'd learn english, but she'd be a heavily accented person with irrelevant experience who would probably be making less money with more hours in a much worse environment and with no respect from society. I'm more than happy to support her completely, but my potential health issues make me wary of doing this. Even beyond that, I think that right now...she has a solid job that provides a good life (relative to the expectations of a small chinese city), and a very enviable amount of work. On the flip side, I am used to living in different places and have acclimated very well to life here. I have a better grasp of Chinese than she will likely ever have at English (she would agree with this -- I simply care a lot more about being able to read books, the news, etc and have pushed very hard to get advanced knowledge of the language, whereas she really doesn't really care about that sort of stuff). While my options aren't great here, they are comparatively much better than the options she will likely have living in Canada or America, at least for a while. Honestly her job in China is just so perfect for her. She's a good teacher, she has little stress, people respect what she does, we get to spend a lot of time together. It's enviable!
But then my brain goes back to: what if America goes to war with China and I get deported? Or even worse (than deportation, not than war, war would be awful), what if they decide that this random foreigner in this random city should become part of some political tit for tat (in the way China has detained multiple Canadians on extremely dubious charges, though in general those have been journalists). I dunno. It's hard to know what matters these days. On the big picture, everything feels filled with dread and nihilism.
Of course, I realize I don't need to "decide." I can just take things year by year and see...but especially if we want to try and buy a place...or even ignoring that, I guess I want to feel a sense of...investment in the place where I live? At least psychologically not feeling like "oh yeah well we will probably move next year," and instead saying: "this is home." Like, I have another thread about buying an expensive office chair. If I'm going to be moving in a year, maybe I'd deprioritize that. I have a long list of things I'd like for "home," dumb things really but I've moved a lot so I've never had a chance to make it happen, if that makes any sense. Stuff like...a nice espresso machine. A nice painting or two for the walls. Stuff that would not make any sense to buy if they'll just have to be shipped in a year.
I can certainly accept that maybe as long as we live here I _won't_ be able to feel that way, and that's just part of how it goes, but I guess I'm curious about how people look at incorporating the bigger picture political issues. I lived in the US as 9/11 happened and the government used it to wage endless wars, domestic and abroad. I remember the first time I look at the civilian casualties from the war in Iraq alone...And now of course the continued rise of white supremacy (eg Trump), and on and on. And yet we have to keep living our tiny, insignificant lives...
I'm going to try and focus just on critical details otherwise this is going to end up being a very long message. I've posted some questions in the past about thinking about where to move... I'm an American currently living in China, married to a Chinese national. We do not want kids. I do not want to move back to America if at all possible. I believe, fairly reasonably, that I can move to Canada if I want to (I'm an experienced programmer -- in fact I already got one job offer in Canada, but turned it down for health reasons and because I feel wary about moving in the middle of the pandemic, especially when our life here feels quite safe compared to literally everyone else I know).
Basically, my wife and I have thought a lot about where we would want to live outside of China...but we really quite like our life in the small (by Chinese standards :), inconsequential city we live in. I speak fluent Mandarin and while there are aspects of life here that I do not like, most of them are big picture, namely...an authoritarian one party country with very weak civil liberties, especially for me. Plus the cultural genocide being perpetrated against Uighyrs. On the other hand, the US has so much bullshit, and everyone I know just sort of...keeps living there. They protest, which of course is not really an option in China, and makes a big difference.
Our plan was previous to wait out the pandemic and then for me to try and get a job in Canada (which again, I feel pretty confident I can do), but there are a couple of factors making me question that. One: we really do like the life we have here. The big picture issues aside, it feels like a sustainable life. It's certainly the happiest I've ever been in my life (I've moved around a lot as an adult). The downside is that my work situation is tricky. I currently have no income, but my wife has a very stable job as a teacher. She will never make a ton of money, but we have enough. I have some savings if stuff comes up, but at some point I'll have to figure out income. I can either try to work online, which has a lot of complications (time zone, authoritarian country with no real functioning rule of law), or...teach english, which actually would pay enough to basically cement the life that we want, though it'd be a gigantic step down in pay from programming and be a bit of a hit to my ego, though I'm pretty good at overcoming stuff like that.
Another complicating factor re: work is that I've had a pretty bad RSI flareup...I'm taking the steps necessary to deal with it, but the truth is I've been _very_ careful for the last decade about how I use computers (ergonomic setup, taking regular breaks, etc)...and I'm not sure that I have 30+ years of computer use left in my body. It's extremely painful to say that, but something to think about. My wife has essentially a tenure teaching job which will also provide a pension, though again, nothing crazy. Basically her income is enough that we live happily here, but if we want anything more (say an international trip a year, visits back to the US for me, buying a house), I will need some income, though even the income from teaching (compared to programming) would be enough.
Another issue is that, essentially, every year we stay here I will have to re-apply for a spousal visa. Assuming nothing crazy happens there's no real reason to think I won't get it, but still...it sucks to know that my wife and I could be separated for geopolitical reasons. If we immigrated to Canada (or the US, god help me), we could at least have the goal of having the same passport one day (though honestly I don't know that my wife would ultimately be willing to renounce her Chinese citizenship...she is conflicted and isn't really sure what she'd choose, it'd probably depend on her experience living abroad).
Right now, we've started considering just...pushing back the plans to move. My wife is ok with me not having an income (though I'd like to have one at some point!). I feel like here I have the life I've always wanted, and if we leave, we will always be chasing that life. But it's not an uncomplicated choice to stay. My current thinking is just sort of..."wait and see," but if we want to do something like, say, buy a house...well, again, I don't know how to think about the political reality of China. The truth is that, barring geopolitical changes (which are not altogether without possibility!), I feel like I'm safe in a "security through obscurity" sort of way. Of course, it sucks to know that the state could come for me and I'd have very little if any rights...but then I think about how black people are treated in the US :/
Also, I'm the only person I know who seems to think about this stuff when thinking about where to live so my friends don't really have a lot to offer when talking about the subject except a sort of "oh, yeah, I never really thought about leaving America...".
Another detail which may be relevant may be not: my wife is totally open to moving abroad, and partly sees it as an adventure. But I think she has always been somewhat apprehensive about what she would do for work, and also how well she would acclimate. She's an upbeat, positive person so I think she would be fine...but I think it would be very hard for her to find as good a job as the one she has now. Right now she has a job as a teacher which, in China, confers _a lot_ more respect than it does in America, at least. She has relaxed hours (she works 2-3 hours a day), makes a middle class wage, will get a pension, and can do 1:1 tutoring if she wants to bolster her income. As such, we have a pretty incredible lifestyle, get to spend a ton of time with each other and she has minimal work stress. She is not a super diligent stuff, so outside of the country I think it would not be easy for her to find a good gig...I think in time she'd learn english, but she'd be a heavily accented person with irrelevant experience who would probably be making less money with more hours in a much worse environment and with no respect from society. I'm more than happy to support her completely, but my potential health issues make me wary of doing this. Even beyond that, I think that right now...she has a solid job that provides a good life (relative to the expectations of a small chinese city), and a very enviable amount of work. On the flip side, I am used to living in different places and have acclimated very well to life here. I have a better grasp of Chinese than she will likely ever have at English (she would agree with this -- I simply care a lot more about being able to read books, the news, etc and have pushed very hard to get advanced knowledge of the language, whereas she really doesn't really care about that sort of stuff). While my options aren't great here, they are comparatively much better than the options she will likely have living in Canada or America, at least for a while. Honestly her job in China is just so perfect for her. She's a good teacher, she has little stress, people respect what she does, we get to spend a lot of time together. It's enviable!
But then my brain goes back to: what if America goes to war with China and I get deported? Or even worse (than deportation, not than war, war would be awful), what if they decide that this random foreigner in this random city should become part of some political tit for tat (in the way China has detained multiple Canadians on extremely dubious charges, though in general those have been journalists). I dunno. It's hard to know what matters these days. On the big picture, everything feels filled with dread and nihilism.
Of course, I realize I don't need to "decide." I can just take things year by year and see...but especially if we want to try and buy a place...or even ignoring that, I guess I want to feel a sense of...investment in the place where I live? At least psychologically not feeling like "oh yeah well we will probably move next year," and instead saying: "this is home." Like, I have another thread about buying an expensive office chair. If I'm going to be moving in a year, maybe I'd deprioritize that. I have a long list of things I'd like for "home," dumb things really but I've moved a lot so I've never had a chance to make it happen, if that makes any sense. Stuff like...a nice espresso machine. A nice painting or two for the walls. Stuff that would not make any sense to buy if they'll just have to be shipped in a year.
I can certainly accept that maybe as long as we live here I _won't_ be able to feel that way, and that's just part of how it goes, but I guess I'm curious about how people look at incorporating the bigger picture political issues. I lived in the US as 9/11 happened and the government used it to wage endless wars, domestic and abroad. I remember the first time I look at the civilian casualties from the war in Iraq alone...And now of course the continued rise of white supremacy (eg Trump), and on and on. And yet we have to keep living our tiny, insignificant lives...
In Canada, if you went to Vancouver or Toronto, your wife might be able to find job help and other support from the sizable Chinese communities in those cities. Even Montreal has a decent-sized Chinese community, although French would complicate the equation.
posted by zadcat at 7:35 AM on September 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by zadcat at 7:35 AM on September 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
Agree with MiraK. Living in a country, on its own, is not unethical or an endorsement of the regime.
(And even if it were, it affects your own life SO MUCH MORE than it has any effect on the outside world, so you should live where you want, and channel that happiness into improving the world in whatever way is doable for you.)
posted by mekily at 7:37 AM on September 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
(And even if it were, it affects your own life SO MUCH MORE than it has any effect on the outside world, so you should live where you want, and channel that happiness into improving the world in whatever way is doable for you.)
posted by mekily at 7:37 AM on September 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
my wife is totally open to moving abroad, and partly sees it as an adventure. But I think she has always been somewhat apprehensive about what she would do for work, and also how well she would acclimate. She's an upbeat, positive person so I think she would be fine...but I think it would be very hard for her to find as good a job as the one she has now. Right now she has a job as a teacher which, in China, confers _a lot_ more respect than it does in America, at least. She has relaxed hours (she works 2-3 hours a day), makes a middle class wage, will get a pension, and can do 1:1 tutoring if she wants to bolster her income. As such, we have a pretty incredible lifestyle, get to spend a ton of time with each other and she has minimal work stress. She is not a super diligent stuff, so outside of the country I think it would not be easy for her to find a good gig...I think in time she'd learn english, but she'd be a heavily accented person with irrelevant experience who would probably be making less money with more hours in a much worse environment and with no respect from society.
Considering all this, if you do wind up moving abroad, you should be prepared for the possibility that your wife will wind up hating it and want to go home.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:05 AM on September 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
Considering all this, if you do wind up moving abroad, you should be prepared for the possibility that your wife will wind up hating it and want to go home.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:05 AM on September 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
I suggest turning this question into more of a decision tree and less of an idle daydream -- are there specific "red lines" that, if crossed, trigger action on your part? Maybe some have already passed, maybe not, but still think about them.
Next, lay them out, find out if they can be put in series, determine which actions need to be made at those points, and so on. I've done this for my life in the US, and it was quite reassuring because I now have a fairly detailed plan and, perhaps most importantly, a destination that I am assured will take me if I want (I recognize my privilege in saying that). I know that if a certain event occurs, I will take certain actions in response, which moves me a certain way toward leaving.
Also when looking at end-points (escape destinations), you could consider places like Singapore or Taiwan. Linguistically it may be a whole lot easier for your wife.
posted by aramaic at 8:07 AM on September 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
Next, lay them out, find out if they can be put in series, determine which actions need to be made at those points, and so on. I've done this for my life in the US, and it was quite reassuring because I now have a fairly detailed plan and, perhaps most importantly, a destination that I am assured will take me if I want (I recognize my privilege in saying that). I know that if a certain event occurs, I will take certain actions in response, which moves me a certain way toward leaving.
Also when looking at end-points (escape destinations), you could consider places like Singapore or Taiwan. Linguistically it may be a whole lot easier for your wife.
posted by aramaic at 8:07 AM on September 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
"On the other hand, the US has so much bullshit, and everyone I know just sort of...keeps living there."
Most people aren't privileged enough to think about this as a moral choice. Having the opportunity to live in various places, with access to a reasonable income is something the vast majority of people don't have as an option.
In my view the moral thing would probably to live in a country you're a citizen in and push for change in whatever large or small way you can. But honestly I would think you, and your wife, need to sit down and decide what you want out of your life and if behaving in a moral way is one of the factors look at where you can make an actual direct difference.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 8:08 AM on September 16, 2020 [21 favorites]
Most people aren't privileged enough to think about this as a moral choice. Having the opportunity to live in various places, with access to a reasonable income is something the vast majority of people don't have as an option.
In my view the moral thing would probably to live in a country you're a citizen in and push for change in whatever large or small way you can. But honestly I would think you, and your wife, need to sit down and decide what you want out of your life and if behaving in a moral way is one of the factors look at where you can make an actual direct difference.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 8:08 AM on September 16, 2020 [21 favorites]
Gently, I want to point out that your question is coming from a shallow understanding of ethics and an overinflated sense of how much your personal motivations impact the world. Examining your choices through a moral lens *can* be a good thing, I guess? But only when that examination is grounded in humility, focuses on real-life impact, and shows perspective.
To put it another way:
Stop holding in your farts because you're worried about releasing too much methane into the atmosphere. Start holding in your farts because you're in an elevator with four other people.
posted by MiraK at 8:22 AM on September 16, 2020 [26 favorites]
To put it another way:
Stop holding in your farts because you're worried about releasing too much methane into the atmosphere. Start holding in your farts because you're in an elevator with four other people.
posted by MiraK at 8:22 AM on September 16, 2020 [26 favorites]
I am in a kind of similar situation to you-- American living in my husband's home country after moving around a lot as an adult. The only thing I can confidently say is that you should ABSOLUTELY get that espresso machine. Living like you are going to leave anytime doesn't actually help you build a better future, it just ensures your low-grade unease. If and when you move to Canada, it will be because you and your wife decided it was abetter deal than the sweet deal you have now. That advice really helped me stress less and be more grounded. And in that case, you can take all the art and stuff with you.
posted by athirstforsalt at 8:30 AM on September 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by athirstforsalt at 8:30 AM on September 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
I have owned a home and, for some of us, home ownership is overrated. I moved out of the US so my spouse could live in their home country and I never felt so lonely and out of place in my life. (Ironically, I ended up back in that country but I moved to be close to grandchildren and this time I knew what I was getting into). It sounds as though you and your spouse have a pretty sweet deal. If she doesn't have a burning desire to move and if you are doing well there, stay put.
Also, buy the espresso machine and go find some art for your walls. Put down roots. Get to know your neighbors, etc. You know the drill. No one knows the future. You may feel forced to move at some point and/or may be excited to move at some point. In the meantime, treat your home as home. It's not nearly as enjoyable otherwise. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 8:41 AM on September 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
Also, buy the espresso machine and go find some art for your walls. Put down roots. Get to know your neighbors, etc. You know the drill. No one knows the future. You may feel forced to move at some point and/or may be excited to move at some point. In the meantime, treat your home as home. It's not nearly as enjoyable otherwise. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 8:41 AM on September 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
On the human rights issue, I think the question to ask is whether there are ways you could offer more material or practical help to Uyghur people by leaving the country.
If there are, it would be a very, very good deed to leave the country and do those things. If there aren't, then the decision to leave or stay is morally neutral: it's okay to go, it's okay to stay, and it's okay to make the decision based on whatever factors you want to consider.
For instance, yes, you could speak more freely about the situation if you lived overseas, and could definitely raise some foreigners' awareness. So ask yourself: are there specific Uyghur people whose lives would be better in concrete ways if you did that? If yes, it would be a good deed to do it for their sake. If no, there's no obligation to do it for its own sake. Find some other way to help that makes a concrete difference, and live wherever you want.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:12 AM on September 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
If there are, it would be a very, very good deed to leave the country and do those things. If there aren't, then the decision to leave or stay is morally neutral: it's okay to go, it's okay to stay, and it's okay to make the decision based on whatever factors you want to consider.
For instance, yes, you could speak more freely about the situation if you lived overseas, and could definitely raise some foreigners' awareness. So ask yourself: are there specific Uyghur people whose lives would be better in concrete ways if you did that? If yes, it would be a good deed to do it for their sake. If no, there's no obligation to do it for its own sake. Find some other way to help that makes a concrete difference, and live wherever you want.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:12 AM on September 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
The one thing I'm telling everyone I know trying to decide about big decisions right now: I don't think you can reasonably make any before a) the US election on Nov 3 and honestly the following 2 months (if not multiple decades) of shitshow that will almost certainly follow b) a real, proven-effective COVID-19 vaccine that is widely distributed. Until at least that point, everything is up in the air, every economy is a mist/smoke-covered crystal ball, every place you could possibly live is Schrodinger's Hellhole.
In moderate worst-case scenarios, your wife will reliably have a job and the two of you can probably depend on something like an appropriate state response to changing pandemic conditions. Two years from now, I hope, you will better be able to determine if Canada (which has its own shameful ongoing record on human rights) or the US (same, and hungry for more) are even viable options. You can weigh your options, and your ability to do something about injustice in those places, at that point.
It is a common observation among expats that Americans are so unlikely to consider "leaving", but where is it you think we could all go instead? It's an interesting thought exercise that I think more people should go through, but for the most part we don't actually have anywhere else we can legally go where they have to take us. It's simply not an option for most people who don't have a close enough family link to claim residency rights* or a specifically exceptional set of job skills to qualify for employment-based residency.
*And many of the small group of people who could pursue familial residency are looking at countries with similarly struggling economies and/or fascism, so...not great options there either.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
In moderate worst-case scenarios, your wife will reliably have a job and the two of you can probably depend on something like an appropriate state response to changing pandemic conditions. Two years from now, I hope, you will better be able to determine if Canada (which has its own shameful ongoing record on human rights) or the US (same, and hungry for more) are even viable options. You can weigh your options, and your ability to do something about injustice in those places, at that point.
It is a common observation among expats that Americans are so unlikely to consider "leaving", but where is it you think we could all go instead? It's an interesting thought exercise that I think more people should go through, but for the most part we don't actually have anywhere else we can legally go where they have to take us. It's simply not an option for most people who don't have a close enough family link to claim residency rights* or a specifically exceptional set of job skills to qualify for employment-based residency.
*And many of the small group of people who could pursue familial residency are looking at countries with similarly struggling economies and/or fascism, so...not great options there either.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
I've been an expat in an oppressive country, so I think I understand some of what you're talking about. I agree that American friends in the US aren't the best people to bounce ideas off of. (But also: most folks do stay in their countries of birth, and if they don't, it's often because of economic necessity, so it's not like your American friends are oddities for staying in the US.) Do you have expat friends in China or elsewhere? They would be great people to chat with. The US isn't great, I agree, but I think some of your negativity about the US is because you are getting that overseas filters. Truly, it's not great. But, Canada has its own problems. China has its own problems. Nowhere is perfect. And if you go to Canada, you will both be living away from your countries of origin, and that doesn't seem ideal, either. Canada isn't just the US but slightly better, you know?
we really do like the life we have here. The big picture issues aside, it feels like a sustainable life. It's certainly the happiest I've ever been in my life (I've moved around a lot as an adult).
This is worth an awful lot. I wouldn't walk away from that unless I had to or was certain I could go back to it.
If you are just looking for permission to continue living in China, then you have it. It's not like you can't change your mind. But I think you're stuck in a sort of pervasive indecision, and that's got to take a fair amount of energy. I'm sure it can't be fun for you or your wife.
Do you listen to Slate podcasts at all? Last year the podcast How To did a great interview with an American expat in Portugal who was trying to decide if/when to move back to the US. The podcast wasn't just about her specific situation, but more broadly about how to approach decisions like this. It was fantastic, and I think it would speak to a lot of what you're trying to figure out right now.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:16 PM on September 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
we really do like the life we have here. The big picture issues aside, it feels like a sustainable life. It's certainly the happiest I've ever been in my life (I've moved around a lot as an adult).
This is worth an awful lot. I wouldn't walk away from that unless I had to or was certain I could go back to it.
If you are just looking for permission to continue living in China, then you have it. It's not like you can't change your mind. But I think you're stuck in a sort of pervasive indecision, and that's got to take a fair amount of energy. I'm sure it can't be fun for you or your wife.
Do you listen to Slate podcasts at all? Last year the podcast How To did a great interview with an American expat in Portugal who was trying to decide if/when to move back to the US. The podcast wasn't just about her specific situation, but more broadly about how to approach decisions like this. It was fantastic, and I think it would speak to a lot of what you're trying to figure out right now.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:16 PM on September 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
I can’t speak to the geopolitical and moral side of this, but FWIW, I lived overseas for several years in a place where many of the people who moved there would constantly have in their mind that they’d stay for “another six months” but that leaving point never came, and suddenly they’d been there twenty years. And they were incredibly happy. It wasn’t (just) that they were scared of making A Big Decision, more that they had no need to. Their life was awesome there, it was nice to know in the back of their mind that they could choose to leave if they really wanted to (at a putative time just far enough in the future that they didn’t have to do anything about it right now).
I feel like here I have the life I've always wanted.
That is an absolutely priceless position to be in. Your life honestly sounds pretty great now, and could be even more so if you can get into teaching and find a way to derive satisfaction from it. It sounds like life elsewhere could be a real struggle, especially for your wife. Why struggle?
Buy the office chair. And the other things. Have the best life you can right now. Who’s to say they won’t be worth it if it turns out you have to leave in a year? You’ll enjoy them for a year. And owning them will make you more likely to stay put and feel even more settled, making the question moot.
posted by penguin pie at 1:21 PM on September 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
I feel like here I have the life I've always wanted.
That is an absolutely priceless position to be in. Your life honestly sounds pretty great now, and could be even more so if you can get into teaching and find a way to derive satisfaction from it. It sounds like life elsewhere could be a real struggle, especially for your wife. Why struggle?
Buy the office chair. And the other things. Have the best life you can right now. Who’s to say they won’t be worth it if it turns out you have to leave in a year? You’ll enjoy them for a year. And owning them will make you more likely to stay put and feel even more settled, making the question moot.
posted by penguin pie at 1:21 PM on September 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
You like your life in China, it's fine to live there, why not settle down and spread your roots? Yes, there could be some far-off terrible future where the US goes to war with China and you get deported -- but none of us live contingency-free lives.
posted by hungrytiger at 6:28 PM on September 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by hungrytiger at 6:28 PM on September 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Everyone needs to live somewhere - you aren't the government, persay, so it's down to your personal feelings on the matter. The vast majority of people are good (optimist in the house), and presumably you like the folks that live around you.
That being said, my parents were refugees from Poland in the 80s. They left with nothing but my brother and the clothes on their back, because they wanted a better, freer life than that under Soviet rule.
5 years later, it all fell down and I grew up visiting my extended family every other year. (Living in Canada). No one could have predicted that. My extended family isn't bad for staying, and my parents aren't bad for leaving. They didn't have any *moral* obligation to leave.
Now? They immigrated to the US 15 years ago, and until recently, it was great - my dad made more than he could in Canada, and politically it was similar enough. Of course, the borders shut down and they haven't seen us or their only grandson who was born 2 weeks before the border closed.
Who would have thought the Canadian-US border would *close*? Who would have thought Soviet rule would *fall*? Curveballs happen!
So like, you never know. Live life how *you* feel more secure. Set down roots. 5 years from now maybe something will happen that will force you to move, but you had 5 awesome years.
(For what it's worth, I love Canada. I think it's great here, and at this point, would be hard pressed to think of somewhere I rather live.)
posted by aggyface at 7:30 PM on September 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
That being said, my parents were refugees from Poland in the 80s. They left with nothing but my brother and the clothes on their back, because they wanted a better, freer life than that under Soviet rule.
5 years later, it all fell down and I grew up visiting my extended family every other year. (Living in Canada). No one could have predicted that. My extended family isn't bad for staying, and my parents aren't bad for leaving. They didn't have any *moral* obligation to leave.
Now? They immigrated to the US 15 years ago, and until recently, it was great - my dad made more than he could in Canada, and politically it was similar enough. Of course, the borders shut down and they haven't seen us or their only grandson who was born 2 weeks before the border closed.
Who would have thought the Canadian-US border would *close*? Who would have thought Soviet rule would *fall*? Curveballs happen!
So like, you never know. Live life how *you* feel more secure. Set down roots. 5 years from now maybe something will happen that will force you to move, but you had 5 awesome years.
(For what it's worth, I love Canada. I think it's great here, and at this point, would be hard pressed to think of somewhere I rather live.)
posted by aggyface at 7:30 PM on September 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
what if they decide that this random foreigner in this random city should become part of some political tit for tat
With teachers held in such high esteem in China, would you be less likely to ever be involved in such a situation if you were working as an English teacher?
And even though your ego might take a hit because of the pay, perhaps the increased social status of being a teacher would make up for it. There are other benefits like not having to dip into your savings, a future in English teaching if you move elsewhere and RSI prevents you from working in programming, your wife being happier with you -- I think you should try out English teaching now, before you feel forced into it by savings running out.
And buy that espresso maker. You don't have to ship it if you move, there's probably another expat around who would want to buy your espresso maker or nice office chair.
posted by yohko at 8:23 PM on September 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
With teachers held in such high esteem in China, would you be less likely to ever be involved in such a situation if you were working as an English teacher?
And even though your ego might take a hit because of the pay, perhaps the increased social status of being a teacher would make up for it. There are other benefits like not having to dip into your savings, a future in English teaching if you move elsewhere and RSI prevents you from working in programming, your wife being happier with you -- I think you should try out English teaching now, before you feel forced into it by savings running out.
And buy that espresso maker. You don't have to ship it if you move, there's probably another expat around who would want to buy your espresso maker or nice office chair.
posted by yohko at 8:23 PM on September 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
though it'd be a gigantic step down in pay from programming and be a bit of a hit to my ego, though I'm pretty good at overcoming stuff like that.
well, you said you currently have no income, so it would be a big step up. how you would feel if you were losing programming pay for teaching is totally hypothetical when you wouldn't be.
Going from a country where you both speak a major language and can both work to a country where only you speak a major language and only you can work seems like such a clear No. You have more choices in China than she would in Canada; you'd probably be happy there but she's definitely happy here.
as far as ethics is concerned, it would not be ethical to take a job as e.g. a prison guard or propagandist, but you are not being asked to. It would not be ethical to change the balance of power in your marriage from not quite equal but pretty close, to profoundly unequal. If you had no choice but to go to Canada for survival, or if it was primarily your wife's idea, sure. but if not, don't.
The broader ethical question in play here is whether or not you would be doing good works and actively protesting or agitating for change if you lived in another country, in a way you are not able to do in China. Would you be exerting yourself to help the people of Canada, if you lived there, in a way you are not able to help people while you're in China? if you aren't actively planning on it, it really makes no difference at all where you are.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:11 AM on September 17, 2020 [8 favorites]
well, you said you currently have no income, so it would be a big step up. how you would feel if you were losing programming pay for teaching is totally hypothetical when you wouldn't be.
Going from a country where you both speak a major language and can both work to a country where only you speak a major language and only you can work seems like such a clear No. You have more choices in China than she would in Canada; you'd probably be happy there but she's definitely happy here.
as far as ethics is concerned, it would not be ethical to take a job as e.g. a prison guard or propagandist, but you are not being asked to. It would not be ethical to change the balance of power in your marriage from not quite equal but pretty close, to profoundly unequal. If you had no choice but to go to Canada for survival, or if it was primarily your wife's idea, sure. but if not, don't.
The broader ethical question in play here is whether or not you would be doing good works and actively protesting or agitating for change if you lived in another country, in a way you are not able to do in China. Would you be exerting yourself to help the people of Canada, if you lived there, in a way you are not able to help people while you're in China? if you aren't actively planning on it, it really makes no difference at all where you are.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:11 AM on September 17, 2020 [8 favorites]
The "ethics" of continuing to live in China is not the point. You are a foreigner residing in a totalitarian dictatorship that has recently shown its willingness to put millions of innocent Uighurs, many of whom always though of themselves as Chinese as anyone, into concentration camps. The parallels with Jews in Germany are extremely apt, and the "Dachau" stage, if not the "Auschwitz", is already in the rear-view mirror. The equivalents of Mengele's medical horrors have happened, according to numerous sources, to Falun Gong practitioners. There is no "security through obscurity" from any whims of the Party in a panopticon. Get out as soon as you reasonably can, before they decide you constitute a problem for whatever reason. P.S. Half of my extended family died in the gas chambers and the crematoria in eastern europe, so I urge you not to dither about "ethics".
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 1:27 AM on September 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 1:27 AM on September 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Wherever it is you decide to live, DO invest your time, efforts, commitment, and money in making your community and country a better place for everyone. Choosing to be active vs. choosing to remain detached or uninvolved DOES have moral weight attached to it, because here, unlike when you're deciding where to live, your choice has power to affect larger realities.
posted by MiraK at 7:35 AM on September 16, 2020 [20 favorites]