Estranged family resisting estrangement
September 5, 2020 8:00 AM Subscribe
My partner and I are trying to figure out how to respond to an estranged family member. This family member is making persistent attempts to re-establish contact and has ramped things up after a recent death in the family. What can we do?
My parent, N, has traits consistent with NPD. I stopped all contact with N 3 years ago after I realized her lack of regard for boundaries (ignoring requests to stop doing x/y/z, ignoring food allergies, etc.) was having destabilizing effects on my mental health. I genuinely wished N well and told her I would reach out again when ready. I have been doing much better with the lack of contact and have not reached out since then. I moved several states away, changed my phone number, and changed my name. N has continued to send regular (1-3x/month) emails to an email address I no longer use, which I deleted last week.
I do not want to re-establish contact with N, or anyone else in the family who she would be able to manipulate. I would like to disappear from family life entirely.
A family member died recently, and N has now recruited cousins to reach out to me. Their efforts are focused on my partner, C. Contact has been limited to email. C knows this is triggering for me, so C hasn't gone into detail about what is in the emails. It seems more urgent to N that I end the estrangement now that there has been a death in the family. (C reported the death to me.)
This has been stressful for my partner. C is less familiar with NPD and has found the combination of persistence, lack of empathy, and phony concern disturbing. C replied to N once earlier this year, just to let her know that we were alive at the start of COVID-19, and has not responded to N's emails since then. C receives emails from N once or twice a month.
I realize my family is using my partner to get to me. They were not in touch with C at ALL until after I cut off contact (C and I have known each other since high school). I don't know what to do. I asked C to block my parent when N first started emailing a few years ago; C did not. C also doesn't want to lie to N and pretend that C and I are no longer in contact since C believes maintaining credibility with them is important and wouldn't be surprised if my family escalated to hiring a private investigator.
I feel like I am hiding from my family, and maybe I am, but I don't see the point in engaging with them because boundaries I set have always been ignored anyway. I am also worried about my family tracking me down, finding my new name and address, and continuing or escalating harassment. The harassment does not currently involve physical violence or threats to anyone's physical safety.
What are our options here? We are in the US (OR) and are in our mid-late 20s, if that matters at all. N is in her 60s. I've scoured resources aimed at children of narcissist parents but haven't found anything I can apply to this situation. (The chapter on stalkers in The Gift of Fear seems to suggest not rocking the boat, which we have been doing until now.) C and I both have trauma histories and parents with suspected personality disorders (BPD/NPD).
TL;DR: My estranged family is using my partner to get to me now that they cannot reach me directly. What to do?
My parent, N, has traits consistent with NPD. I stopped all contact with N 3 years ago after I realized her lack of regard for boundaries (ignoring requests to stop doing x/y/z, ignoring food allergies, etc.) was having destabilizing effects on my mental health. I genuinely wished N well and told her I would reach out again when ready. I have been doing much better with the lack of contact and have not reached out since then. I moved several states away, changed my phone number, and changed my name. N has continued to send regular (1-3x/month) emails to an email address I no longer use, which I deleted last week.
I do not want to re-establish contact with N, or anyone else in the family who she would be able to manipulate. I would like to disappear from family life entirely.
A family member died recently, and N has now recruited cousins to reach out to me. Their efforts are focused on my partner, C. Contact has been limited to email. C knows this is triggering for me, so C hasn't gone into detail about what is in the emails. It seems more urgent to N that I end the estrangement now that there has been a death in the family. (C reported the death to me.)
This has been stressful for my partner. C is less familiar with NPD and has found the combination of persistence, lack of empathy, and phony concern disturbing. C replied to N once earlier this year, just to let her know that we were alive at the start of COVID-19, and has not responded to N's emails since then. C receives emails from N once or twice a month.
I realize my family is using my partner to get to me. They were not in touch with C at ALL until after I cut off contact (C and I have known each other since high school). I don't know what to do. I asked C to block my parent when N first started emailing a few years ago; C did not. C also doesn't want to lie to N and pretend that C and I are no longer in contact since C believes maintaining credibility with them is important and wouldn't be surprised if my family escalated to hiring a private investigator.
I feel like I am hiding from my family, and maybe I am, but I don't see the point in engaging with them because boundaries I set have always been ignored anyway. I am also worried about my family tracking me down, finding my new name and address, and continuing or escalating harassment. The harassment does not currently involve physical violence or threats to anyone's physical safety.
What are our options here? We are in the US (OR) and are in our mid-late 20s, if that matters at all. N is in her 60s. I've scoured resources aimed at children of narcissist parents but haven't found anything I can apply to this situation. (The chapter on stalkers in The Gift of Fear seems to suggest not rocking the boat, which we have been doing until now.) C and I both have trauma histories and parents with suspected personality disorders (BPD/NPD).
TL;DR: My estranged family is using my partner to get to me now that they cannot reach me directly. What to do?
Your partner needs to accept that the decisions about contact with your family are yours, and bin the emails accordingly. That's literally it.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:27 AM on September 5, 2020 [58 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 8:27 AM on September 5, 2020 [58 favorites]
I am also really concerned that you and your partner are not in alignment about how to deal with N, especially since C's response to N is actually rewarding behavior (and thus why N will continue to reach out even without getting anything back). Why is C telling you that they are trying to contact you in the first place? Why does it matter to maintain credibility? Does C really believe that this is going to keep them from trying to locate you?
Sorry, I'm getting away from answering your question. I am very sympathetic as I am both estranged from my entire family of origin and have had similar fears of being tracked down and harassed, AND I have experienced a lack of sympathy/empathy/understanding from people in my life over it.
I think the first step is that you and C need to get on the same page. I think that C having contact with your parent, even one-sided, and telling you about it is not respectful of your boundaries but maybe the two of you need a third party to work through what a path forward looks like, including whether there are any legal options available. Possibly your partner could benefit from a better understanding of NPD itself as well as coping mechanisms.
I'm really sorry that you're going through this.
posted by sm1tten at 8:29 AM on September 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
Sorry, I'm getting away from answering your question. I am very sympathetic as I am both estranged from my entire family of origin and have had similar fears of being tracked down and harassed, AND I have experienced a lack of sympathy/empathy/understanding from people in my life over it.
I think the first step is that you and C need to get on the same page. I think that C having contact with your parent, even one-sided, and telling you about it is not respectful of your boundaries but maybe the two of you need a third party to work through what a path forward looks like, including whether there are any legal options available. Possibly your partner could benefit from a better understanding of NPD itself as well as coping mechanisms.
I'm really sorry that you're going through this.
posted by sm1tten at 8:29 AM on September 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
Hugs to you, the resident teenager and I ended contact with my mother about a year ago because it was bad for both of our mental health so you have my full empathy.
Standard advice for cutting contact is to make a clean break and never respond - if you reply to the Xth message, even if all you say is "please stop contacting me", you have taught N that it takes X messages to get a reaction so they should persist.
A family member died recently, and N has now recruited cousins to reach out to me.
Do you want to maintain contact with the cousins? If so I recommend the strategy of responding to people at face value and not reaching for subtext. Answer their message as though they just happened to email you to share the news about relative A and aren't doing it to gather intel on N's behalf. Will they report back to N? From how you've described the situation, yeah, probably, and you can't control that, but you can limit the information they have. "Sorry to hear about A's death, thanks for reaching out" is a complete response if you're worried that specifics about your personal life will get back to N.
I asked C to block my parent when N first started emailing a few years ago; C did not.
C needs to have your back on this and similarly stop acknowledging or responding to N's messages. I won't go straight to DTMFA, but if they don't respect "I have ended this relationship over XYZ issues and to protect my own mental health and need you to support me by doing the same", it's time for a serious come-to-Jesus talk either between the two of you or from a third party C trusts, or couples therapy, or possibly in the end a separation or breakup.
posted by Flannery Culp at 8:30 AM on September 5, 2020 [9 favorites]
Standard advice for cutting contact is to make a clean break and never respond - if you reply to the Xth message, even if all you say is "please stop contacting me", you have taught N that it takes X messages to get a reaction so they should persist.
A family member died recently, and N has now recruited cousins to reach out to me.
Do you want to maintain contact with the cousins? If so I recommend the strategy of responding to people at face value and not reaching for subtext. Answer their message as though they just happened to email you to share the news about relative A and aren't doing it to gather intel on N's behalf. Will they report back to N? From how you've described the situation, yeah, probably, and you can't control that, but you can limit the information they have. "Sorry to hear about A's death, thanks for reaching out" is a complete response if you're worried that specifics about your personal life will get back to N.
I asked C to block my parent when N first started emailing a few years ago; C did not.
C needs to have your back on this and similarly stop acknowledging or responding to N's messages. I won't go straight to DTMFA, but if they don't respect "I have ended this relationship over XYZ issues and to protect my own mental health and need you to support me by doing the same", it's time for a serious come-to-Jesus talk either between the two of you or from a third party C trusts, or couples therapy, or possibly in the end a separation or breakup.
posted by Flannery Culp at 8:30 AM on September 5, 2020 [9 favorites]
is there something you're not telling us here?
because what you've told us has a super simple solution. You say "I do not want to re-establish contact with N." Fine! Then sit your partner down, tell them in no uncertain terms that you are finished having them undermine your decision, and going forward, to STOP UNDERMINING YOUR DECISION. That means they must block N's emails, block any other cousins' emails, and apologize to you for not having supported you on this earlier.
I'm kind of picking up between the lines here though that you're not 100% ready to actually cut off that contact. Is the problem that you wanted to have the option of re-establishing contact in the future, and that's why you've tolerated your partner's continuing the contact? If that's the case, that's okay too, but it's a different question than the one you've posed.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:39 AM on September 5, 2020 [12 favorites]
because what you've told us has a super simple solution. You say "I do not want to re-establish contact with N." Fine! Then sit your partner down, tell them in no uncertain terms that you are finished having them undermine your decision, and going forward, to STOP UNDERMINING YOUR DECISION. That means they must block N's emails, block any other cousins' emails, and apologize to you for not having supported you on this earlier.
I'm kind of picking up between the lines here though that you're not 100% ready to actually cut off that contact. Is the problem that you wanted to have the option of re-establishing contact in the future, and that's why you've tolerated your partner's continuing the contact? If that's the case, that's okay too, but it's a different question than the one you've posed.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:39 AM on September 5, 2020 [12 favorites]
You'll find more answers on reddit in /r/justnomil, /r/justnofamily, /r/raisedbynarcissists, /r/raisedbyborderlines, and other subreddits. Scenarios like yours are distressingly common.
posted by kindall at 9:00 AM on September 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by kindall at 9:00 AM on September 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
C also doesn't want to lie to N and pretend that C and I are no longer in contact since C believes maintaining credibility with them is important and wouldn't be surprised if my family escalated to hiring a private investigator.
This sentence kind of gets at the heart of this, because it makes no sense.
So let me summarize what I've understood from you. You have changed all your personally identifying information including your name, but your partner is known to your bio-family from whom you are hiding. I think I've inferred correctly that they don't know that your partner is actually your partner.
Your partner is pretending to be supportive of your decision to change all your identifying information, and yet stays in touch with your family, creating the most inevitable and successful way for them to get to you in some physical way whether that's a call, a letter, or showing up on your doorstep...in the name of keeping them from getting to you in this way. Because of that, C is actually the ONLY channel of this distress in your life right now.
You know that "the call is coming from inside the house" thing in horror stories? C is the broken window that is letting the person in.
C's actions are just plain wrong here. C needs to cut contact with everyone. C is getting some kind of payoff emotionally -- for being the strong one that can handle the situation, or being willing to support you but only if they don't have to give up a friendship, or being "a good person" for emailing N that you are alive due to a pandemic (what??? The??? F??) because they have to "maintain credulity" (what???) or whatever. C is not your partner in this.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:33 AM on September 5, 2020 [50 favorites]
This sentence kind of gets at the heart of this, because it makes no sense.
So let me summarize what I've understood from you. You have changed all your personally identifying information including your name, but your partner is known to your bio-family from whom you are hiding. I think I've inferred correctly that they don't know that your partner is actually your partner.
Your partner is pretending to be supportive of your decision to change all your identifying information, and yet stays in touch with your family, creating the most inevitable and successful way for them to get to you in some physical way whether that's a call, a letter, or showing up on your doorstep...in the name of keeping them from getting to you in this way. Because of that, C is actually the ONLY channel of this distress in your life right now.
You know that "the call is coming from inside the house" thing in horror stories? C is the broken window that is letting the person in.
C's actions are just plain wrong here. C needs to cut contact with everyone. C is getting some kind of payoff emotionally -- for being the strong one that can handle the situation, or being willing to support you but only if they don't have to give up a friendship, or being "a good person" for emailing N that you are alive due to a pandemic (what??? The??? F??) because they have to "maintain credulity" (what???) or whatever. C is not your partner in this.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:33 AM on September 5, 2020 [50 favorites]
Yeah, some of the waters here are really muddy, though I'm more likely to assume that C is afraid for their safety or privacy (or having anybody mad at them, which is extremely distressing for some people) on one side and afraid of upsetting you on the other and is stuck in Fawn mode.
Your family could very well hire a PI at any time, could have done so long before now. Nothing either of you can do about that, except honestly just be relieved that it's not y'all's problem anymore. I have a friend whose parent hires one every other year or so and it is upsetting but at least my friend knows the PI can't DO anything, isn't emotionally involved or likely to do anything illegal/threatening/dangerous, and mostly is only gathering up publicly-available information and occasionally driving by the house to confirm my friend hasn't died/moved.
Draw boundaries that get C completely off the hook, and maybe ask and just listen to the answer about what is scaring C and provoking their behavior here. It's possible you're at an impasse, that C is absolutely unwilling to participate in your cutting-off, and you will need to reassess that relationship. But it's also possible that C is afraid of some kind of personal consequences and is having trouble communicating them with you.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:46 AM on September 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
Your family could very well hire a PI at any time, could have done so long before now. Nothing either of you can do about that, except honestly just be relieved that it's not y'all's problem anymore. I have a friend whose parent hires one every other year or so and it is upsetting but at least my friend knows the PI can't DO anything, isn't emotionally involved or likely to do anything illegal/threatening/dangerous, and mostly is only gathering up publicly-available information and occasionally driving by the house to confirm my friend hasn't died/moved.
Draw boundaries that get C completely off the hook, and maybe ask and just listen to the answer about what is scaring C and provoking their behavior here. It's possible you're at an impasse, that C is absolutely unwilling to participate in your cutting-off, and you will need to reassess that relationship. But it's also possible that C is afraid of some kind of personal consequences and is having trouble communicating them with you.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:46 AM on September 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
>C also doesn't want to lie to N and pretend that C and I are no longer in contact since C believes maintaining credibility with them is important and wouldn't be surprised if my family escalated to hiring a private investigator.
Why on earth is your partner more concerned with maintaining credibility with your abusive family members than with how you feel and what you want???
I'm not going to give you advice, but if I were in your shoes, that partner would have been an EX-partner ten minutes or less after they decided to disregard the do-not-contact wishes. My abusive mother's hurt fee-fees matter to you more than mine? Go be with her, then; I'm DONE.
But that's just me. You do you. But... do you with healthy boundaries and a strong sense of what is fair and just for you, okay?
posted by WaywardPlane at 9:53 AM on September 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
Why on earth is your partner more concerned with maintaining credibility with your abusive family members than with how you feel and what you want???
I'm not going to give you advice, but if I were in your shoes, that partner would have been an EX-partner ten minutes or less after they decided to disregard the do-not-contact wishes. My abusive mother's hurt fee-fees matter to you more than mine? Go be with her, then; I'm DONE.
But that's just me. You do you. But... do you with healthy boundaries and a strong sense of what is fair and just for you, okay?
posted by WaywardPlane at 9:53 AM on September 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
Not sure it’s been pointed out explicitly yet but: Your partner not respecting your boundaries is awfully resonant with your parent not respecting your boundaries. You know that idea that what we learn in out families of origin tends to crop up in our adult relationships, because we have such a high tolerance for familiar dysfunction that we barely notice it at low levels?
Yeah.
I’ll offer two more thoughts.
First, it’s really common for people who have not had the experience of a familial relationship bad enough to merit estrangement, to Have Opinions about that. To think you should get over it and to judge you if you don’t. I also cut ties with my family for very good reason and have received a lot of well-intentioned but utterly clueless advice over the years, as well as some really nasty judgement. It may be that your partner thinks they know better than you what the right course of action is. Not really a respectful partnership practice.
Finally, there’s an important difference between stated boundaries and actual boundaries. Stated boundaries are how you would like things to be. Actual boundaries are what you will not tolerate. You have experience with this difference with your parent; they wouldn’t respect your stated boundary, so you enforced your actual boundary. In this case, what you’re objecting to is your partner interacting with your family. You can’t control your partner’s behavior, or your family’s. If they want to continue to communicate and to share information about you, they will. You have stated your boundary about this and it’s not honored. It would be painful to have to enforce the actual boundary, I.e. your partner is no longer your partner and in your intimate circle, but that may be what you have to do to get the distance you need.
I hope your partner gets the clue and does the right thing. But this may be another experience where you get better about recognizing what’s a transgression you should no longer tolerate, and bring that awareness into your next relationship.
posted by Sublimity at 10:06 AM on September 5, 2020 [16 favorites]
Yeah.
I’ll offer two more thoughts.
First, it’s really common for people who have not had the experience of a familial relationship bad enough to merit estrangement, to Have Opinions about that. To think you should get over it and to judge you if you don’t. I also cut ties with my family for very good reason and have received a lot of well-intentioned but utterly clueless advice over the years, as well as some really nasty judgement. It may be that your partner thinks they know better than you what the right course of action is. Not really a respectful partnership practice.
Finally, there’s an important difference between stated boundaries and actual boundaries. Stated boundaries are how you would like things to be. Actual boundaries are what you will not tolerate. You have experience with this difference with your parent; they wouldn’t respect your stated boundary, so you enforced your actual boundary. In this case, what you’re objecting to is your partner interacting with your family. You can’t control your partner’s behavior, or your family’s. If they want to continue to communicate and to share information about you, they will. You have stated your boundary about this and it’s not honored. It would be painful to have to enforce the actual boundary, I.e. your partner is no longer your partner and in your intimate circle, but that may be what you have to do to get the distance you need.
I hope your partner gets the clue and does the right thing. But this may be another experience where you get better about recognizing what’s a transgression you should no longer tolerate, and bring that awareness into your next relationship.
posted by Sublimity at 10:06 AM on September 5, 2020 [16 favorites]
Your partner needs to cut off all contact in order to prevent your parent and company from having access to you. Your partner is their entry point, a breach in your defensive wall. You must close this breach, and if partner won't cooperate, then you must decide if you want to tell them you are done with them, and then close the breach yourself.
Easier said than done, I know, but the last thing you need is a partner who is on the side of the people you don't want in your life.
posted by Armed Only With Hubris at 10:35 AM on September 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
Easier said than done, I know, but the last thing you need is a partner who is on the side of the people you don't want in your life.
posted by Armed Only With Hubris at 10:35 AM on September 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'll N'th that your partner is not respecting you and your decisions about this. You partner giving any information to N is just rewarding N, and would/will lead to escalations faster than continuing the slow fade.
At this point, it's less about your family trying to contact you, than it is about C not respecting your boundaries of how you want to handle your familial relationships.
(I've been estranged from my parents (and all blood relatives except for my sister) for ~20 years now with a brief few month gap.)
posted by nobeagle at 10:36 AM on September 5, 2020
At this point, it's less about your family trying to contact you, than it is about C not respecting your boundaries of how you want to handle your familial relationships.
(I've been estranged from my parents (and all blood relatives except for my sister) for ~20 years now with a brief few month gap.)
posted by nobeagle at 10:36 AM on September 5, 2020
cousins need to be told point blank to stop the flying monkey messages from parent. I had to do this 2 years ago when my biological excuse for a mother had my father( they're still married)bring a crocodile tear card to my 50th bday dinner.
my father turned 90 last month and I refused to be part of the zoom she claimed I was cohosting( though I wasn't included as such and was blocked after I posted on the evite that I refused to engage with her due to the abuse; I told friends and family they had my contact info if they wished to be in touch). I sent him chocolates and was able to speak to him on the phone.
posted by brujita at 10:36 AM on September 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
my father turned 90 last month and I refused to be part of the zoom she claimed I was cohosting( though I wasn't included as such and was blocked after I posted on the evite that I refused to engage with her due to the abuse; I told friends and family they had my contact info if they wished to be in touch). I sent him chocolates and was able to speak to him on the phone.
posted by brujita at 10:36 AM on September 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
The problem is not your family is resisting the estrangement, it is that your partner is resisting it. Your family have no way in without your partner’s help. So focus on getting them on the same page.
posted by koahiatamadl at 11:13 AM on September 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by koahiatamadl at 11:13 AM on September 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
There's a missing lede here that would help us understand C more. Does C have any money, work, community standing that your family could ruin? Because C's worries about credibility make no sense otherwise.
posted by nakedmolerats at 11:17 AM on September 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by nakedmolerats at 11:17 AM on September 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't think you need to focus on C (well perhaps in a secondary way ..) I think you need to focus on building your own sense of security in your own boundaries i.e. in your decision not to see your family.
1. You still have 100% control over your boundaries in this situation. Nobody can make you contact your family unless you choose to. Close your eyes, take a deep breath, and remind yourself that you are safe. You are an autonomous adult. C and N and your cousins and whoever else can say and do whatever they want to say and do.... You can't control their actions: you can't force N to stop emailing anyone, you can't force C to block N. (Boundaries are rules you set for your actions, not for other people's actions.) They have no power over you, either, and they can't control your actions. You have nothing to fear. Your boundary that you will not contact your family remains perfectly strong, unless you think it's likely that someone kidnaps you and throw you in a room with N! Your personhood is intact and your boundaries are intact. YOU ARE SAFE. Try to fully believe in yourself, your safety, and your decision.
2. Next, you can let C know you would prefer them to cut contact with your family. You realize C is an autonomous adult, and you cannot force them to do this, but C's actions do have an impact on your ability to trust C. You will calmly and without any anger or rancor, let C know that C's actions are trust-damaging, explicitly, without mincing words, because it's true, and because you owe your partner (and yourself!) the truth: "C, you are choosing to damage our relationship." You don't have to hold a grudge or be angry or pout or sulk or stay upset until C agrees to cut contact. You don't have to convince C to do anything, you don't have to plead with C, you don't have to make any effort to change C's mind. Communicate the important information that their choice damages your trust in them, and then let go. Wholeheartedly grant C the freedom to be an autonomous adult and make their own decisions about this.
Mastering Point #1 is the KEY to doing this properly: if you still perceive C's choice as a traumatic threat to your personhood and you are afraid your boundary to not see your family will be shattered by C's choice, then obviously you will be thrown into emotional turmoil by C's choice. You will feel the need to rage at them or plead or argue or simmer in silent anger. You won't be able to grant C their adult autonomy with a whole and calm heart. But if you are 100% sure and secure within yourself that you won't contact your family no matter what C does, then C's actions become much less emotionally threatening for you, and you will become capable of treating C's choice purely as something relatively minor that affects your relationship. You can keep C's actions in perspective: if this is a one-off trust-damaging act, then maybe you'll both move past it with not much harm done, but if this becomes C's pattern, this truth-telling serves as an explicit track record that you can use to make decisions about whether to stay with C. You are robbed of this balanced approach to evaluating your relationship if you lack faith in your own decisions and are stuck perceiving C's choice as a threat to your boundaries.
3. The other thing you may want to do is let C know that you are not interested in hearing anything about your family, even if C is in touch with them. You can ask C to please not say anything about your family to you, but let C know that you recognize you cannot control C's actions -- i.e. you cannot FORCE C to stop speaking words that they want to speak -- but you will walk out of the room and stop interacting with them for a while if C mentions your family (this is a true boundary: you are making a rule for how you will act, you have full control over it, and so you can trust it 100%). Let C know that every time they choose to talk to you about your family in spite of your request that they should not, C is further damaging the relationship and you are going to lose more and more trust in the relationship. Every time you need to walk out of the room, say: "You are deliberately choosing to bring up a topic that upsets me. This makes me believe you do not care about my feelings or my wellbeing. Your choice is damaging our relationship." And then walk away to take some peaceful and gentle time to yourself.
And once again, note that mastering Point #1 is key to handling this situation in a balanced and proportional way. When C brings up your family, EITHER you feel terrified that your boundaries are about to be shattered and somehow you will be forced to contact your family against your will.... OR you feel upset by the bad memories evoked by the mention of your family + disappointed with C for disregarding your feelings yet again. The situation plays out very differently based on which of these two paths you take.
posted by MiraK at 11:38 AM on September 5, 2020 [11 favorites]
1. You still have 100% control over your boundaries in this situation. Nobody can make you contact your family unless you choose to. Close your eyes, take a deep breath, and remind yourself that you are safe. You are an autonomous adult. C and N and your cousins and whoever else can say and do whatever they want to say and do.... You can't control their actions: you can't force N to stop emailing anyone, you can't force C to block N. (Boundaries are rules you set for your actions, not for other people's actions.) They have no power over you, either, and they can't control your actions. You have nothing to fear. Your boundary that you will not contact your family remains perfectly strong, unless you think it's likely that someone kidnaps you and throw you in a room with N! Your personhood is intact and your boundaries are intact. YOU ARE SAFE. Try to fully believe in yourself, your safety, and your decision.
2. Next, you can let C know you would prefer them to cut contact with your family. You realize C is an autonomous adult, and you cannot force them to do this, but C's actions do have an impact on your ability to trust C. You will calmly and without any anger or rancor, let C know that C's actions are trust-damaging, explicitly, without mincing words, because it's true, and because you owe your partner (and yourself!) the truth: "C, you are choosing to damage our relationship." You don't have to hold a grudge or be angry or pout or sulk or stay upset until C agrees to cut contact. You don't have to convince C to do anything, you don't have to plead with C, you don't have to make any effort to change C's mind. Communicate the important information that their choice damages your trust in them, and then let go. Wholeheartedly grant C the freedom to be an autonomous adult and make their own decisions about this.
Mastering Point #1 is the KEY to doing this properly: if you still perceive C's choice as a traumatic threat to your personhood and you are afraid your boundary to not see your family will be shattered by C's choice, then obviously you will be thrown into emotional turmoil by C's choice. You will feel the need to rage at them or plead or argue or simmer in silent anger. You won't be able to grant C their adult autonomy with a whole and calm heart. But if you are 100% sure and secure within yourself that you won't contact your family no matter what C does, then C's actions become much less emotionally threatening for you, and you will become capable of treating C's choice purely as something relatively minor that affects your relationship. You can keep C's actions in perspective: if this is a one-off trust-damaging act, then maybe you'll both move past it with not much harm done, but if this becomes C's pattern, this truth-telling serves as an explicit track record that you can use to make decisions about whether to stay with C. You are robbed of this balanced approach to evaluating your relationship if you lack faith in your own decisions and are stuck perceiving C's choice as a threat to your boundaries.
3. The other thing you may want to do is let C know that you are not interested in hearing anything about your family, even if C is in touch with them. You can ask C to please not say anything about your family to you, but let C know that you recognize you cannot control C's actions -- i.e. you cannot FORCE C to stop speaking words that they want to speak -- but you will walk out of the room and stop interacting with them for a while if C mentions your family (this is a true boundary: you are making a rule for how you will act, you have full control over it, and so you can trust it 100%). Let C know that every time they choose to talk to you about your family in spite of your request that they should not, C is further damaging the relationship and you are going to lose more and more trust in the relationship. Every time you need to walk out of the room, say: "You are deliberately choosing to bring up a topic that upsets me. This makes me believe you do not care about my feelings or my wellbeing. Your choice is damaging our relationship." And then walk away to take some peaceful and gentle time to yourself.
And once again, note that mastering Point #1 is key to handling this situation in a balanced and proportional way. When C brings up your family, EITHER you feel terrified that your boundaries are about to be shattered and somehow you will be forced to contact your family against your will.... OR you feel upset by the bad memories evoked by the mention of your family + disappointed with C for disregarding your feelings yet again. The situation plays out very differently based on which of these two paths you take.
posted by MiraK at 11:38 AM on September 5, 2020 [11 favorites]
I'm going to speak to you from a place of experience. I don't speak to half of my family. My parent is abusive and toxic, as are my extended family. I'm over 13 years n for my parent and maybe 7 or 8 for extended family.
For years, my parent still tried to contact me. The goal is IGNORE and BLOCK. Then when I realized I couldn't have my toxic extended family either it was the same, ignore, lie, and block. (Though I do find it helpful to copy or save any communication when possible.) It is absolutely 1000000% okay to lie to protect yourself - or just not respond.
Your partner is not supporting you.
In my opinion, your partner giving them ANY information - even that you're alive - is not respecting your boundaries. It is not their information to disclose. I really want you to sit with that for a minute. Your partner disclosed information to your abusive family member, without your permission. They are not being upfront about what contact they have had with your family or the content of messages. That is not okay.
My spouse has my back, always. He's never had to step in but he would in an instant without even thinking about it. If they EVER contacted him, he would tell me immediately, not contact them back, and do whatever we felt was best as a team.
I don't understand why your partner is behaving this way. And I want you to know that it's not normal and not okay. Your gut is correct here. You have to find out if you can trust your partner on this. Because, if you can't - you are not safe. That may sound extreme, but even feeling uncomfortable is part of your safety and emotional wellbeing.
If possible, speak with a therapist on your own who has experience with cutting out abusive family and drawing boundaries. Make a plan on how to talk about this and to make decisions to put yourself first. Good luck.
posted by Crystalinne at 12:36 PM on September 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
For years, my parent still tried to contact me. The goal is IGNORE and BLOCK. Then when I realized I couldn't have my toxic extended family either it was the same, ignore, lie, and block. (Though I do find it helpful to copy or save any communication when possible.) It is absolutely 1000000% okay to lie to protect yourself - or just not respond.
Your partner is not supporting you.
In my opinion, your partner giving them ANY information - even that you're alive - is not respecting your boundaries. It is not their information to disclose. I really want you to sit with that for a minute. Your partner disclosed information to your abusive family member, without your permission. They are not being upfront about what contact they have had with your family or the content of messages. That is not okay.
My spouse has my back, always. He's never had to step in but he would in an instant without even thinking about it. If they EVER contacted him, he would tell me immediately, not contact them back, and do whatever we felt was best as a team.
I don't understand why your partner is behaving this way. And I want you to know that it's not normal and not okay. Your gut is correct here. You have to find out if you can trust your partner on this. Because, if you can't - you are not safe. That may sound extreme, but even feeling uncomfortable is part of your safety and emotional wellbeing.
If possible, speak with a therapist on your own who has experience with cutting out abusive family and drawing boundaries. Make a plan on how to talk about this and to make decisions to put yourself first. Good luck.
posted by Crystalinne at 12:36 PM on September 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
From the OP: C also doesn't want to lie to N and pretend that C and I are no longer in contact since C believes maintaining credibility with them is important
From nakedmolerats: There's a missing lede here that would help us understand C more. Does C have any money, work, community standing that your family could ruin? Because C's worries about credibility make no sense otherwise.
You mentioned in passing that you and C have known each other since high school. I wonder if the key to C's behavior lies in whatever genuine or manipulated experiences s/he had with your mother then. Established patterns from that time may cause C to see N as someone around whom barriers cannot be erected. Benevolent adult friend? Authority to be feared? Co-conspirator in interpreting your behavior? Target of a past successful reconciliation effort with you that was orchestrated by C?
Whatever it is, C need to let it go and fully support you.
posted by carmicha at 2:05 PM on September 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
From nakedmolerats: There's a missing lede here that would help us understand C more. Does C have any money, work, community standing that your family could ruin? Because C's worries about credibility make no sense otherwise.
You mentioned in passing that you and C have known each other since high school. I wonder if the key to C's behavior lies in whatever genuine or manipulated experiences s/he had with your mother then. Established patterns from that time may cause C to see N as someone around whom barriers cannot be erected. Benevolent adult friend? Authority to be feared? Co-conspirator in interpreting your behavior? Target of a past successful reconciliation effort with you that was orchestrated by C?
Whatever it is, C need to let it go and fully support you.
posted by carmicha at 2:05 PM on September 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
I really have to agree with Hubris: "Your partner needs to cut off all contact in order to prevent your parent and company from having access to you. Your partner is their entry point, a breach in your defensive wall. You must close this breach, and if partner won't cooperate, then you must decide if you want to tell them you are done with them, and then close the breach yourself."
I am close with someone who is estranged from their family. I would never, ever pass along information from their family to them, or vice versa, and if the family attempted to contact me to try to get to this person I would 100% lie or ignore as needed, and follow their lead as far as how the person wanted me to handle it.
If they are capable of and willing to do something like hire an investigator to figure out your new name and your new address and stalk you, C should cease all communication with them immediately FOR THE BOTH OF YOUR SAFETY. You're in danger.
posted by zdravo at 2:22 PM on September 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am close with someone who is estranged from their family. I would never, ever pass along information from their family to them, or vice versa, and if the family attempted to contact me to try to get to this person I would 100% lie or ignore as needed, and follow their lead as far as how the person wanted me to handle it.
If they are capable of and willing to do something like hire an investigator to figure out your new name and your new address and stalk you, C should cease all communication with them immediately FOR THE BOTH OF YOUR SAFETY. You're in danger.
posted by zdravo at 2:22 PM on September 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
I echo the others that C is your weak link here, but I also echo the folks who are suggesting that you need to know why that's happening before you can decide what to do about it.
carmicha's point resonates with me strongly--my mom was the Cool Mom to all my friends in highschool, and many of them either now feel the impact of having been victim to her manipulations and are still susceptible, or never quite got it and just think I'm being a jerk to my mom by minimizing contact with her and not being there for her. Could it be that they're still ensnared by her for some reason, or afraid of her?
It could also be that they have a safety concern, or that they misinterpreted something and mistakenly believe you want them to continue to be a conduit of information from the family. It could also be that they Just Don't Get It, or even that they're deliberately being malicious.
You know your relationship with C well enough to guess at which it might be, and you owe it to yourself to find out more. If it's one of the more charitable reasons, you can work that out together, which probably includes you being very explicit that you want them to cease further contact with your relatives, up to and including blocking them. If it's not, then it's time to have a different kind of explicit conversation, where you make it clear that if they can't get with the program they're not respecting your wishes or a safe person for you to be with.
Sorry you're dealing with this. Good luck.
posted by rhiannonstone at 2:48 PM on September 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
carmicha's point resonates with me strongly--my mom was the Cool Mom to all my friends in highschool, and many of them either now feel the impact of having been victim to her manipulations and are still susceptible, or never quite got it and just think I'm being a jerk to my mom by minimizing contact with her and not being there for her. Could it be that they're still ensnared by her for some reason, or afraid of her?
It could also be that they have a safety concern, or that they misinterpreted something and mistakenly believe you want them to continue to be a conduit of information from the family. It could also be that they Just Don't Get It, or even that they're deliberately being malicious.
You know your relationship with C well enough to guess at which it might be, and you owe it to yourself to find out more. If it's one of the more charitable reasons, you can work that out together, which probably includes you being very explicit that you want them to cease further contact with your relatives, up to and including blocking them. If it's not, then it's time to have a different kind of explicit conversation, where you make it clear that if they can't get with the program they're not respecting your wishes or a safe person for you to be with.
Sorry you're dealing with this. Good luck.
posted by rhiannonstone at 2:48 PM on September 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
C needs to set up an email rule that deletes their emails before he even sees them. Then he won't be tempted to mention it to you.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:58 PM on September 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 2:58 PM on September 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
Ignore if this is not relevant: You say that both you and C have trauma histories. If C is responding to your family in a certain way because that's how C has been conditioned to respond to their own family, that is totally understandable but also not helpful. You get to be the expert and decider (for both of you) on your family and C gets to be the expert and decider on their family/abuser. So C needs to respect your decisions about how to interact with your family, even if they go against C's current trauma responses or the way C is currently dealing with their own abusers. (And, conversely, you need to respect C's decisions about how to interact with their abusers, even if it goes against your own trauma response or the way you are currently dealing with your own abusers.)
Stuff gets hard when multiple people in relationship all have different trauma responses, and sometimes people can get stuck in thinking "This is how one deals with trauma" rather than "This is how I am currently needing to deal with this particular trauma." It's better if you can each back each other up without imposing your own personal histories on each other.
That said, please note that I said you need to "respect," not "give into," each other's decisions. It's totally in the realm of the possible that your decisions about how to respond to your abusers is triggering in a way that C can't handle right now, or vice versa, and there needs to be an understanding from both of you that while you each need to respect each other's stances in regards to your own abusers, it may not be possible to do that and remain in relationship with each other.
I'm sorry. This sounds really hard. I hope you're able to work through it together and come out understanding each other better.
posted by lapis at 7:19 PM on September 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
Stuff gets hard when multiple people in relationship all have different trauma responses, and sometimes people can get stuck in thinking "This is how one deals with trauma" rather than "This is how I am currently needing to deal with this particular trauma." It's better if you can each back each other up without imposing your own personal histories on each other.
That said, please note that I said you need to "respect," not "give into," each other's decisions. It's totally in the realm of the possible that your decisions about how to respond to your abusers is triggering in a way that C can't handle right now, or vice versa, and there needs to be an understanding from both of you that while you each need to respect each other's stances in regards to your own abusers, it may not be possible to do that and remain in relationship with each other.
I'm sorry. This sounds really hard. I hope you're able to work through it together and come out understanding each other better.
posted by lapis at 7:19 PM on September 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I just had this conversation yet again this year with a twentysomething passenger. Triggering times. No agenda, just heard some bells and shared something relevant. Thought the silence was disapproval until they told me to turn back 30 minutes later. Can I sit up front? Then we really talked.
24 years into this and it it still blips at me sometimes. Still hurts and that feeling of what should be, what could have been, what I deserved vs. what I got is still there even tho I know better. That's not what my passenger wanted to hear at all but what's the alternative?
I told them about interrupting one of my housemates burning a letter a few months ago. Just enough of a corner of an envelope left. I was angry for a few minutes then let it settle and didn't ask. They love me and I trust their take on whatever crippling message it contained.
Codependent relationships don't suddenly become healthy ones.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 11:05 PM on September 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
24 years into this and it it still blips at me sometimes. Still hurts and that feeling of what should be, what could have been, what I deserved vs. what I got is still there even tho I know better. That's not what my passenger wanted to hear at all but what's the alternative?
I told them about interrupting one of my housemates burning a letter a few months ago. Just enough of a corner of an envelope left. I was angry for a few minutes then let it settle and didn't ask. They love me and I trust their take on whatever crippling message it contained.
Codependent relationships don't suddenly become healthy ones.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 11:05 PM on September 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
You need to sit C down have have the explicit talk:
The fact that they are downing does not mean you are morally obligated to let them drag you under with them. You need to put on your own air-mask first, then see if C can be salvaged.
Because there is no guarantee that C is capable of doing what you need to be safe.
You need to sit C down, look them in the eye, and say:
It’s 100% possible that C loves you, means well, and will still drag you under to drown because they can’t pull their own shit together.
Don’t let them.
Best of luck.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:26 AM on September 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
Either you 100% cease all contact with my family (bock and do not respond, EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES) or this partnership is over. There is no scenario where you keep in contact with my family and we remain a couple.Whatever C’s excuses are, they don’t matter. They carry no weight, and are not up for consideration. Seriously. I don’t care about C’s issues, their trauma, whatever.
The fact that they are downing does not mean you are morally obligated to let them drag you under with them. You need to put on your own air-mask first, then see if C can be salvaged.
Because there is no guarantee that C is capable of doing what you need to be safe.
You need to sit C down, look them in the eye, and say:
Either we are a 100% a team, or we are done. This is not a discussion; I’m telling how I need it to be if we are to be a couple. If you can’t commit to that, this is over..You wanting C to do the right thing is not enough. C has to commit and follow through and fucking start swimming.
It’s 100% possible that C loves you, means well, and will still drag you under to drown because they can’t pull their own shit together.
Don’t let them.
Best of luck.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:26 AM on September 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
A cop came to our door yesterday for a welfare check for me (using my old name) so family now has my current address. Apparently my cousin had also called and sent them to an old address the day before. The cop passed along a message to me from the cousin about N being ill. I explained to the cop that I am not in contact with family and do not wish to be contacted by family. The thread here on cops was helpful.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:50 PM on September 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
We are moving soon, so we might just use a PO Box for everything to delay them getting the new address. C is self-employed and registered our home address as the business address for the LLC and thinks that was how we were found. Both my old name and my current name are very common (think "John Smith"/"Jane Doe") so I assume I'd be harder to track.
C and I talked. C acknowledges that responding to N was a bad move. Cousins have reached out to C through LinkedIn, C's work web page, and several forms of social media in addition to email, so it's been hard to block them completely. C emailed the cousins once (after the cop visit) to ask them to stop contacting either of us. We don't know what N told the cousins, so this was just a way to get all cousins on the same page about not wanting to be contacted. C will ignore all future contacts after that and maybe consult a lawyer for a cease-and-desist letter if needed.
C wants to "maintain credibility" because C feels that my family would quickly find out the truth anyway if C lied about us no longer being in contact.
I've (1) felt guilty about them bugging C and (2) not wanted to know about any contact but then flip-flopped after things ramped up... so that made it hard for us to be on the same page. We are on the same page about cutting them off completely now. Any future communications (if any) will likely be through a lawyer. (We can't really afford this at the moment so it won't be anytime soon.)
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful and insightful responses. I appreciate it more than I can express right now.
Sending police to your door for an unnecessary wellness check is so much worse than hiring private investigators (mentioned in a previous response as the estranged relative's stalking technique). It reads as a threat to you and your significant other. OP, please review the "Get a Lawyer" wiki for low- and no-cost legal resources, and look into non-residential options for the LLC's business address (perhaps by using a registered agent), going forward. Good luck on the move.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:22 PM on September 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:22 PM on September 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
That sounds like possible grounds for a restraining order. Did you get the cop's name or card? It might be worth contacting them to lay out the whole story with your family (i.e. not the usual concerned family welfare check story they probably got from N) and ask about options for protecting yourself.
posted by Flannery Culp at 2:29 PM on September 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Flannery Culp at 2:29 PM on September 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
This sounds incredibly stressful. I'm so sorry.
posted by arnicae at 8:13 AM on September 5, 2020 [27 favorites]