His daughter is moving back home. What about COVID-19?
August 2, 2020 8:24 AM Subscribe
My friend has a daughter. She lost her job and is moving back home after quarantining. After she then joins the family viral group. Obviously, she needs to observe the basic rules of masking and social distancing when in public, shopping, interacting with others. Question - What about her boyfriend and his roommates? How do they interact?
Response by poster: Addendum. Thanks, he asked my opinion.
posted by ebesan at 8:38 AM on August 2, 2020
posted by ebesan at 8:38 AM on August 2, 2020
Response by poster: He asks me...Isn't the family at risk?
posted by ebesan at 8:44 AM on August 2, 2020
posted by ebesan at 8:44 AM on August 2, 2020
This really, really depends on what the virus prevalence is in his area.
If there are a lot of active cases, then yes, his daughter having close contact with her boyfriend, who is then having close contact with his roommates, who may be having close contact with other people, does increase everyone's risk. How much it increases the risk is a difficult question that we don't fully understand yet.
posted by mekily at 8:54 AM on August 2, 2020
If there are a lot of active cases, then yes, his daughter having close contact with her boyfriend, who is then having close contact with his roommates, who may be having close contact with other people, does increase everyone's risk. How much it increases the risk is a difficult question that we don't fully understand yet.
posted by mekily at 8:54 AM on August 2, 2020
Is the family at risk? Yes. How much depends on what's going on in their area and what her boyfriend's roommates are doing.
I dealt with something vaguely similarly recently - I started seeing someone and then found out that her roommates (whom I'd been under the impression were mostly pretty isolated) had started doing some (in my opinion) unreasonably risky things so I told her I needed to take a break from seeing her in person until things got sorted out. As far as I can tell, not-socially-distanced dates would be a great way to spread COVID-19, so it's almost like the two houses (of the people dating) have merged. My housemate and I have been checking in with each other when we do anything potentially risky (I checked in with her about having not-socially-distanced dates) but not every household is operating that way.
posted by needs more cowbell at 9:00 AM on August 2, 2020
I dealt with something vaguely similarly recently - I started seeing someone and then found out that her roommates (whom I'd been under the impression were mostly pretty isolated) had started doing some (in my opinion) unreasonably risky things so I told her I needed to take a break from seeing her in person until things got sorted out. As far as I can tell, not-socially-distanced dates would be a great way to spread COVID-19, so it's almost like the two houses (of the people dating) have merged. My housemate and I have been checking in with each other when we do anything potentially risky (I checked in with her about having not-socially-distanced dates) but not every household is operating that way.
posted by needs more cowbell at 9:00 AM on August 2, 2020
I can't tell your friend what to do but I can present some things for him to think about.
1. What are the ages and risk profile of the other members of the family? My 70+ yo diabetic MIL lives with us, and we can't easily put a wall between her area of the home and ours (we may yet find a way) so we have a lower risk tolerance that some of our peers.
2. What's the spread in his area? I would look at the reproductive rate in particular. If it's over 1, then cases are going to spread.
3. What other activities are going on in the home? If the daughter is the only break in their bubble, i.e. he and everyone else are working from home, etc., then the total contacts for their house might still be low. If someone in the household has to go to work at say, a daycare, they might have a lot more contacts. In my family we're kind of assessing activities by "how many contacts does this add vs. is it worth it?"
4. Daughter's mental health and dating history. I know that this is tough because a lot of people are screaming MENTAL HEALTH as a way to justify bad choices...but just like false pregnancies don't end pregnancies, other people's bad behaviour doesn't fit into assessing someone else's true needs. Are the daughter and her boyfriend where they can sit on the porch socially distanced? Or do they have to canoodle? Is the canoodling worth the risk to the household? She can shower, etc., coming home but if she gets Covid, she will be spreading it to the household before she knows she has it.
5. I agree it kind of is like merging the bubbles.
6. If the daughter generally makes good choices and everyone can agree...there might still be a risk and at that point, one kind of has to let it go in that...if you have, say, a 19 year old and the 19 year old does a typical 19 year old stupid thing and sneaks out to see their boyfriend...although it's infuriating and could have huge consequences, ultimately, 19 year olds are who they are, too. I don't know if that helps but it is how I am trying to deal with educating my 14 year old, who will be engaging in school in a specialized program he can't do at home. I am talking to him about the importance of masking, etc.
But by being his parent, one of my risk factors is that I have a 14 year old at home who will be imperfect and thoughtless from time to time. If the worst case happens, I will have a responsibility to support and love him even if say he did bring Covid home out of stupidity and his grandmother got it. Ultimately it is the virus that kills us. It's a balancing act, but something that your friend probably needs to come to terms with.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:12 AM on August 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
1. What are the ages and risk profile of the other members of the family? My 70+ yo diabetic MIL lives with us, and we can't easily put a wall between her area of the home and ours (we may yet find a way) so we have a lower risk tolerance that some of our peers.
2. What's the spread in his area? I would look at the reproductive rate in particular. If it's over 1, then cases are going to spread.
3. What other activities are going on in the home? If the daughter is the only break in their bubble, i.e. he and everyone else are working from home, etc., then the total contacts for their house might still be low. If someone in the household has to go to work at say, a daycare, they might have a lot more contacts. In my family we're kind of assessing activities by "how many contacts does this add vs. is it worth it?"
4. Daughter's mental health and dating history. I know that this is tough because a lot of people are screaming MENTAL HEALTH as a way to justify bad choices...but just like false pregnancies don't end pregnancies, other people's bad behaviour doesn't fit into assessing someone else's true needs. Are the daughter and her boyfriend where they can sit on the porch socially distanced? Or do they have to canoodle? Is the canoodling worth the risk to the household? She can shower, etc., coming home but if she gets Covid, she will be spreading it to the household before she knows she has it.
5. I agree it kind of is like merging the bubbles.
6. If the daughter generally makes good choices and everyone can agree...there might still be a risk and at that point, one kind of has to let it go in that...if you have, say, a 19 year old and the 19 year old does a typical 19 year old stupid thing and sneaks out to see their boyfriend...although it's infuriating and could have huge consequences, ultimately, 19 year olds are who they are, too. I don't know if that helps but it is how I am trying to deal with educating my 14 year old, who will be engaging in school in a specialized program he can't do at home. I am talking to him about the importance of masking, etc.
But by being his parent, one of my risk factors is that I have a 14 year old at home who will be imperfect and thoughtless from time to time. If the worst case happens, I will have a responsibility to support and love him even if say he did bring Covid home out of stupidity and his grandmother got it. Ultimately it is the virus that kills us. It's a balancing act, but something that your friend probably needs to come to terms with.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:12 AM on August 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
I think the biggest factor is not only the roommates’ behavior but their transparency about it. Do they openly disclose “we went to a bar yesterday” or do you have to pester them for the information? It is like merging households but if you’re in the US you may be dealing with this for 6 more months. Is that reasonable to not see one’s partner during that time? Would your daughter be open to spending a week at their place and then isolating for 14 days when she comes home? That trade off might be worth it to her. There are many factors that determine the risks
posted by raccoon409 at 9:40 AM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by raccoon409 at 9:40 AM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yes, this is a risk and a problem. If the daughter wants to live at home, she needs to bubble at home. Boyfriend can either move in, boyfriend and all roommates can agree to bubble together with girlfriend's family with no other outside contact, or boyfriend and girlfriend can zoom until it is actually safe to start mixing freely again.
There's very few countries so successful that anything else is feasible at this point, OP should mention if this is in one of the ones that has a low infection rate (because of actual low infections rather than lack of testing or refusal to release data). There's apparently not that many teenagers/young adults who will faithfully adhere to actual social distancing requirements, and everyone else's safety here depends on two primaries, two secondaries, and the dozens of acquaintances each of them has.
You can attempt to appeal to the not-fully-formed prefrontal cortexes of the daughter and the boyfriend and use her housing status as leverage, but getting the roommates to give one tenth of a molecule of a flying fuck may simply not be achievable. The boyfriend is only as safe as his roommates; unless they live in a large house with multiple bathrooms there is nothing he can do to successfully isolate from them. If they are going to parties where people cough in each others' faces for fun, the boyfriend pretty much is too, and so is the girlfriend, and so is the family.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:54 AM on August 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
There's very few countries so successful that anything else is feasible at this point, OP should mention if this is in one of the ones that has a low infection rate (because of actual low infections rather than lack of testing or refusal to release data). There's apparently not that many teenagers/young adults who will faithfully adhere to actual social distancing requirements, and everyone else's safety here depends on two primaries, two secondaries, and the dozens of acquaintances each of them has.
You can attempt to appeal to the not-fully-formed prefrontal cortexes of the daughter and the boyfriend and use her housing status as leverage, but getting the roommates to give one tenth of a molecule of a flying fuck may simply not be achievable. The boyfriend is only as safe as his roommates; unless they live in a large house with multiple bathrooms there is nothing he can do to successfully isolate from them. If they are going to parties where people cough in each others' faces for fun, the boyfriend pretty much is too, and so is the girlfriend, and so is the family.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:54 AM on August 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
If the question is what rules should your friend put in place with his daughter, I think it would be best to have a conversation with her about this. Ideally either she keeps socially distant from boyfriend or she and boyfriend join in just one house to keep from linking the two households.
The next question is what is your friend willing to do if the daughter doesn't agree or doesn't follow the rules? Is the friend willing to make this a dealbreaker for living in their house? Being honest with themselves about this will them engage more calmly with the daughter.
I think it is also important to remember that just because one person in a household gets Covid, doesn't mean that everyone else automatically gets it. One study from China, (quoted in WebMD) showed that 19% of family members got COVID-19 which means 81% of household members did not contract it. So I would think about first, what rules might reduce the chance that the daughter catches it from boyfriend or boyfriend's housemates.
Particularly if there is concern about daughter engaging in risky behavior, then I strongly urge your friend to think about what they can do to reduce the risk of transmission within the family bubble. This might include daughter having a dedicated bathroom, lots of open windows and fresh air, seating at distance when at home, frequent washing hands (by everyone) and wiping down. Clearly sharing a home with someone who is infected is high risk but, as I said, not guaranteed to get it so do what they can do to reduce that risk as well.
posted by metahawk at 1:10 PM on August 2, 2020
The next question is what is your friend willing to do if the daughter doesn't agree or doesn't follow the rules? Is the friend willing to make this a dealbreaker for living in their house? Being honest with themselves about this will them engage more calmly with the daughter.
I think it is also important to remember that just because one person in a household gets Covid, doesn't mean that everyone else automatically gets it. One study from China, (quoted in WebMD) showed that 19% of family members got COVID-19 which means 81% of household members did not contract it. So I would think about first, what rules might reduce the chance that the daughter catches it from boyfriend or boyfriend's housemates.
Particularly if there is concern about daughter engaging in risky behavior, then I strongly urge your friend to think about what they can do to reduce the risk of transmission within the family bubble. This might include daughter having a dedicated bathroom, lots of open windows and fresh air, seating at distance when at home, frequent washing hands (by everyone) and wiping down. Clearly sharing a home with someone who is infected is high risk but, as I said, not guaranteed to get it so do what they can do to reduce that risk as well.
posted by metahawk at 1:10 PM on August 2, 2020
I think your friend is very kind to let his daughter move back in. It’s hard to know what’s best so I understand why he asked you: none of us know right now what will be best in the long term, other than to wear face masks and use hand sanitizer and do social distancing.
Ultimately he gets to call the shots. If she is meeting up with friends or her boyfriend, she is putting the family at risk. They can set boundaries together or he can inform her of the new house rules. In March I got stuck at my parents’ house with my home being abroad and impossible to return to. My older parents are understandably worried about risk so I was told, with an apologetic tone, that I could either stay there and completely social distance or leave and do my own thing. I chose the latter and, while it’s hard financially and logistically, I’m so glad I did it. My relationship with my family is better again and I’m much happier. This is a weird time and a hard situation for all. I hope they can talk like the adults they are and find something that works or agree to disagree and part ways. Our parents love us but do not owe us anything after age 18 just we adult children don’t owe them anything either. I know this isn’t a universal thought but more traditional cultures also have a clearer hierarchy, like “younger children agree to follow the rules of those above them.”
I hope this works out well but there are many ways for families to support each other, and that doesn’t have to be providing a roof over ones head or offering financial help. Resentment is fatal; compassion for different views is needed.
posted by smorgasbord at 3:10 PM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Ultimately he gets to call the shots. If she is meeting up with friends or her boyfriend, she is putting the family at risk. They can set boundaries together or he can inform her of the new house rules. In March I got stuck at my parents’ house with my home being abroad and impossible to return to. My older parents are understandably worried about risk so I was told, with an apologetic tone, that I could either stay there and completely social distance or leave and do my own thing. I chose the latter and, while it’s hard financially and logistically, I’m so glad I did it. My relationship with my family is better again and I’m much happier. This is a weird time and a hard situation for all. I hope they can talk like the adults they are and find something that works or agree to disagree and part ways. Our parents love us but do not owe us anything after age 18 just we adult children don’t owe them anything either. I know this isn’t a universal thought but more traditional cultures also have a clearer hierarchy, like “younger children agree to follow the rules of those above them.”
I hope this works out well but there are many ways for families to support each other, and that doesn’t have to be providing a roof over ones head or offering financial help. Resentment is fatal; compassion for different views is needed.
posted by smorgasbord at 3:10 PM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Here's my experience, which might help with decision making.
I live in a share house, and one of my housemates has a boyfriend who comes to stay 4-5 nights a week (we are not generally thrilled by this, and so he contributes to the bills). I live in an area that has so far had little community transmission, though it has restarted the past few weeks (Sydney, NSW).
Initially, when we went into lock down in March, the law read that the boyfriend couldn't come to visit, so housemate told him not to come (they couldn't afford the fines). The police commissioner clarified fairly quickly to include partners as an acceptable reason to leave home, and given that there was no law, and their mental health would be severely impacted by not seeing each other, we didn't protest when he started staying over again. However, he was asked not to visit if he had any cold symptoms. In our state, if you're symptomatic, you're expected to get tested and self isolate until the results come in. If he was self-isolating, he would not be doing that at our house either.
I'm the oldest housemate at 41, so our risk factors are admittedly lower.
They could ask her not to see boyfriend for a few weeks at a time, if cases spike in their area, and testing is not keeping up with demand, for example. But I don't think that's something they can ask for long term (assuming no public health directive restricting it), not and keep a good relationship with the daughter.
If the daughter's bedroom is physically separated from the parents, and has a separate bathroom, it may be less risky to have him visit your daughter and stay out of the parent's way, than have her visit him and be exposed to his housemates. If this feels too risky, then I think paying to have her rent elsewhere is probably the only other option.
posted by kjs4 at 6:39 PM on August 2, 2020
I live in a share house, and one of my housemates has a boyfriend who comes to stay 4-5 nights a week (we are not generally thrilled by this, and so he contributes to the bills). I live in an area that has so far had little community transmission, though it has restarted the past few weeks (Sydney, NSW).
Initially, when we went into lock down in March, the law read that the boyfriend couldn't come to visit, so housemate told him not to come (they couldn't afford the fines). The police commissioner clarified fairly quickly to include partners as an acceptable reason to leave home, and given that there was no law, and their mental health would be severely impacted by not seeing each other, we didn't protest when he started staying over again. However, he was asked not to visit if he had any cold symptoms. In our state, if you're symptomatic, you're expected to get tested and self isolate until the results come in. If he was self-isolating, he would not be doing that at our house either.
I'm the oldest housemate at 41, so our risk factors are admittedly lower.
They could ask her not to see boyfriend for a few weeks at a time, if cases spike in their area, and testing is not keeping up with demand, for example. But I don't think that's something they can ask for long term (assuming no public health directive restricting it), not and keep a good relationship with the daughter.
If the daughter's bedroom is physically separated from the parents, and has a separate bathroom, it may be less risky to have him visit your daughter and stay out of the parent's way, than have her visit him and be exposed to his housemates. If this feels too risky, then I think paying to have her rent elsewhere is probably the only other option.
posted by kjs4 at 6:39 PM on August 2, 2020
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I also think you should provide a location for your friend, given that this question includes regulatory components that are highly location-dependent.
posted by saeculorum at 8:30 AM on August 2, 2020