Partial Electricity Loss for No Known Reason
July 7, 2020 1:14 PM Subscribe
Electricity went out in part of the house, not the whole house. Ok, so likely a blown fuse (yes, it's fuses, not circuit breakers). But why? There was no unusually strong electricity use. The AC is still running. The big things running were the TV and computer, which are both essentially always on. So the reason this makes me nervous is that a few years ago, the house two doors down burned down and our neighbours died. The verdict was that mice had chewed the wires in the kitchen and a fire had smoldered under the floor. Are we possibly hiding a smoldering fire?
Response by poster: I would say house is built between the 40s and 60s. Our smoke detectors are working and battery-powered (the neighbours had hard-wired smoke detectors that went out when their electricity did).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:36 PM on July 7, 2020
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:36 PM on July 7, 2020
Fuses can deteriorate with age, and the good thing is is that their current rating goes down when they do. So your circuit may have gone out because of that, but you're right in wanting to know the real reason. Which means that you want to know that circuit's current draw without any load at all (should be a few milliAmps at most), as well as its normal load. And unless you have an AC current meter and know how to safely use one while working with line voltages, it's best to leave that to an electrician.
posted by Stoneshop at 1:54 PM on July 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Stoneshop at 1:54 PM on July 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
Best answer: To (mostly) soothe your immediate worry of a fire, especially if it will take time to get an electrician out, call your local fire department non-emergency, and see if it's possible to have someone come out and check out the house, probably with the temperature things that they point at walls. (I totally can't remember what they're called today.)
The ability/willingness of the department to do this may vary depending on location, especially now during Covid-times, but if something prohibits them from it, they should have other advice. (In areas I've lived, they'd totally do it, but then, rural volunteer firefighters are pretty much happy to go out on anything sane, and even some of the crazy stuff.) I guarantee that pretty much any firefighter would rather see it checked into now, than have a much more serious call later. They're not going to be annoyed you ask.
posted by stormyteal at 2:02 PM on July 7, 2020
The ability/willingness of the department to do this may vary depending on location, especially now during Covid-times, but if something prohibits them from it, they should have other advice. (In areas I've lived, they'd totally do it, but then, rural volunteer firefighters are pretty much happy to go out on anything sane, and even some of the crazy stuff.) I guarantee that pretty much any firefighter would rather see it checked into now, than have a much more serious call later. They're not going to be annoyed you ask.
posted by stormyteal at 2:02 PM on July 7, 2020
I would say house is built between the 40s and 60s.
You might be the lucky owner of aluminum wiring.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:09 PM on July 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
You might be the lucky owner of aluminum wiring.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:09 PM on July 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Changing the fuse didn't fix it. Original fuses back in. Then, maybe 10 minutes later, power came back on. ??
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:10 PM on July 7, 2020
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:10 PM on July 7, 2020
Talk to your neighbors-- could have been a surge or other ill-conditioned power coming from your utility. My parents have breakers and recently had something similar go on, their power went out while a few circuits stayed on. Turned out that a few of their neighbors had the same problem at the same instant. The diagnosis seems to have been an arc fault, which surged and tripped all the 115V breakers, but didn't touch the 220v breakers.
posted by Sunburnt at 2:11 PM on July 7, 2020
posted by Sunburnt at 2:11 PM on July 7, 2020
Was the fuse you changed blown? When the power was out *how much* of the house was out? Was it just a few outlets and/or lights that could be on the same circuit, or was it like half the house?
posted by jon1270 at 2:22 PM on July 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by jon1270 at 2:22 PM on July 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
One nice December morning my wife woke me to say that half the house didn't have electricity. In my cranky state I doubted her, but she was right. Our utility supplies our power underground, and apparently one side of our 220V supply had broken but not the other. Utility folks were really happy to dig down in frozen ground to fix it (not).
Also, what Thorzdad said about aluminum wiring should be checked out with your neighbors or utility.
posted by forthright at 2:29 PM on July 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also, what Thorzdad said about aluminum wiring should be checked out with your neighbors or utility.
posted by forthright at 2:29 PM on July 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: OK, firefighters came and went...no fire...need to call an electrician.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:43 PM on July 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:43 PM on July 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
We also had one phase from the transformer to the house disconnect. I would also call your electric company.
posted by beowulf573 at 2:54 PM on July 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by beowulf573 at 2:54 PM on July 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
yep, like others, I have also had one phase of the electricity disappear, which made about 1/3 of our house lose power. You'll need the utility company to fix that. At least here in Aus if you call them out for a problem in their network, doesn't cost you any money, but if the problem turns out to be in your house, they will charge you a callout fee.
posted by neatsocks at 3:20 PM on July 7, 2020
posted by neatsocks at 3:20 PM on July 7, 2020
If things just went out rather than lights suddenly getting bright and then dim, it is not likely to be a broken neutral, which is an emergency. I agree that it sounds more like a disconnected leg of your electric service.
If you don't live in an apartment and are in North America, you almost certainly have split-phase service, meaning that both "halves" of the service are tapped from the same transformer very close to your house. Unless the electric company was in the area doing work, this is almost certainly an wiring issue you will be responsible for. There is a small chance there is a failing outdoor connection, but that is almost always the result of physical damage to the wiring that you would be able to see unless you have underground service.
Unlike with true multiple phase service as is found in commercial buildings and is common in most countries other than the US and Canada, there isn't a way for a problem in the grid to cause only one half of your service to fail, as the transformer serving your home is only connected to one of the three phases of the grid.
If your service is overhead, look for any kind of scorch marks at the connection between the line coming from the pole and the wires coming up from your meter on the side of the house. If you can, also look at the pole end, including the connections to the transformer hanging on the pole. It isn't your responsibility if there is a problem on the power company side, but I would definitely take comfort if I were in your situation and saw scorch marks on the transformer or pole or wiring since I would then know it wasn't a loose connection in my house.
Until you can get an electrician out do what you can to avoid using large electrical loads. Loose connections create heat, and the more electricity you are using the more heat there will be. Tonight isn't the night to bake that turkey in your electric oven.
posted by wierdo at 4:05 PM on July 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
If you don't live in an apartment and are in North America, you almost certainly have split-phase service, meaning that both "halves" of the service are tapped from the same transformer very close to your house. Unless the electric company was in the area doing work, this is almost certainly an wiring issue you will be responsible for. There is a small chance there is a failing outdoor connection, but that is almost always the result of physical damage to the wiring that you would be able to see unless you have underground service.
Unlike with true multiple phase service as is found in commercial buildings and is common in most countries other than the US and Canada, there isn't a way for a problem in the grid to cause only one half of your service to fail, as the transformer serving your home is only connected to one of the three phases of the grid.
If your service is overhead, look for any kind of scorch marks at the connection between the line coming from the pole and the wires coming up from your meter on the side of the house. If you can, also look at the pole end, including the connections to the transformer hanging on the pole. It isn't your responsibility if there is a problem on the power company side, but I would definitely take comfort if I were in your situation and saw scorch marks on the transformer or pole or wiring since I would then know it wasn't a loose connection in my house.
Until you can get an electrician out do what you can to avoid using large electrical loads. Loose connections create heat, and the more electricity you are using the more heat there will be. Tonight isn't the night to bake that turkey in your electric oven.
posted by wierdo at 4:05 PM on July 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
I see the question is already solved, but in my case a similar situation was caused by aluminum wiring between two outlets heating up and burning through. The area of the failure could be traced because some of the outlets up to that point still worked.
posted by Candleman at 4:19 PM on July 7, 2020
posted by Candleman at 4:19 PM on July 7, 2020
If your power had come back on immediately after putting the old fuses back in, I'd say it was originally a loose fuse or corrosion in the socket or on the screw threads of a fuse.
How do you know the power didn't return until ten minutes later? If it was because a refrigerator compressor started back up, that could be a delay I've often noted when power comes back on after a blackout.
posted by jamjam at 4:25 PM on July 7, 2020
How do you know the power didn't return until ten minutes later? If it was because a refrigerator compressor started back up, that could be a delay I've often noted when power comes back on after a blackout.
posted by jamjam at 4:25 PM on July 7, 2020
Best answer: Before you spend money on an electrician, see if you can contact your electricity supplier and find out if they were doing any repairs in your neighborhood. Loss of one leg of your split-phase power could be due to a problem anywhere between your fuse box and the transformer on the neighborhood pole blocks away.
Describe the problem to them and ask them to test your electrical service. They can bring a device that will load-test your electrical service and diagnose most problems.
You might also talk to your neighbors. If it was a neighborhood problem, they would have experienced it as well.
posted by JackFlash at 5:32 PM on July 7, 2020
Describe the problem to them and ask them to test your electrical service. They can bring a device that will load-test your electrical service and diagnose most problems.
You might also talk to your neighbors. If it was a neighborhood problem, they would have experienced it as well.
posted by JackFlash at 5:32 PM on July 7, 2020
Fuses do wear out. If you have screw in plug fuses it wouldn't hurt just to change them all (be aware they come in different amperages, you probably only have (or are only supposed to have) 15A fuses.
You'll have a service disconnect. With fuse panels they can be either a separate disconnect (big switch), a pair of cartridge fuses in a holder that pulls out, or a combo panel with a breaker feeding the fuses. If they are fuses those can also wear out. If you've never dealt with a pull out fuse before and if you can get an electrician to come out it is probably worth an hour of his time to go over it with you. he can also check the general condition of your service and give an idea of what an upgrade if warranted would cost.
You could have a bad connection at your meter base, in the service disconnect or at your fuse bus.
If you have never had the electrical system inspected by an electrician (or it's been 20+ years since) it would be a good idea to have an electrician come take a look. The old fuse panels were very reliable if they weren't messed with but they tend to have been hacked on by handymen over the years and that can lead to problems.
You might be the lucky owner of aluminum wiring.
Unless the house was renovated in the 70s you don't. Most likely it'll be copper BX, or copper NMD with or without bond depending on where in the '40-'59 spectrum the house was wired.
posted by Mitheral at 9:58 PM on July 7, 2020
You'll have a service disconnect. With fuse panels they can be either a separate disconnect (big switch), a pair of cartridge fuses in a holder that pulls out, or a combo panel with a breaker feeding the fuses. If they are fuses those can also wear out. If you've never dealt with a pull out fuse before and if you can get an electrician to come out it is probably worth an hour of his time to go over it with you. he can also check the general condition of your service and give an idea of what an upgrade if warranted would cost.
You could have a bad connection at your meter base, in the service disconnect or at your fuse bus.
If you have never had the electrical system inspected by an electrician (or it's been 20+ years since) it would be a good idea to have an electrician come take a look. The old fuse panels were very reliable if they weren't messed with but they tend to have been hacked on by handymen over the years and that can lead to problems.
You might be the lucky owner of aluminum wiring.
Unless the house was renovated in the 70s you don't. Most likely it'll be copper BX, or copper NMD with or without bond depending on where in the '40-'59 spectrum the house was wired.
posted by Mitheral at 9:58 PM on July 7, 2020
There are cheap circuit testers that would at least tell you whether there's a problem with particular circuits. They look like this. The one in the link is way more expensive (like >5x as expensive) than the ones I have, even though one of mine looks just like it.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:32 AM on July 8, 2020
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:32 AM on July 8, 2020
Response by poster: So if there's no fire and electricity is back do I actually have to bother?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:39 AM on July 8, 2020
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:39 AM on July 8, 2020
Best answer: .... yes.
Unless the power failure you had can be undeniably attributed to a problem external to your house, like the transformer or its fuses.
Deteriorating wiring joins tend to go 'open' and that's the end of it, but not always. Sometimes they halfheartedly fuse together again, and such a contact will run much warmer than a well-made, clean join.
posted by Stoneshop at 7:38 AM on July 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
Unless the power failure you had can be undeniably attributed to a problem external to your house, like the transformer or its fuses.
Deteriorating wiring joins tend to go 'open' and that's the end of it, but not always. Sometimes they halfheartedly fuse together again, and such a contact will run much warmer than a well-made, clean join.
posted by Stoneshop at 7:38 AM on July 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
Speak to your neighbors - if they had similar issues, then it's an easy way to confirm if it was due to external factors.
If they didn't, then it may or may not be due to an external problem.
posted by Gomez_in_the_South at 7:24 PM on July 8, 2020
If they didn't, then it may or may not be due to an external problem.
posted by Gomez_in_the_South at 7:24 PM on July 8, 2020
Best answer: If your electrical system was less than 40 years old I'd say you would be fine just continuing on. But your system is double that. An quick inspection, if it's never been done to your knowledge, would be a good idea regardless of problems. Random unexplained power outages add a little urgency.
999 times out of a 1000 it'll be nothing. But the other 1 time in a 1000 it can be really, uh, exciting. These things still rarely cause a fire in properly installed systems; even those 80 years old. But they can lead to power outages on Xmas eve or weird voltage fluctuations that can harm equipment.
posted by Mitheral at 8:54 PM on July 8, 2020
999 times out of a 1000 it'll be nothing. But the other 1 time in a 1000 it can be really, uh, exciting. These things still rarely cause a fire in properly installed systems; even those 80 years old. But they can lead to power outages on Xmas eve or weird voltage fluctuations that can harm equipment.
posted by Mitheral at 8:54 PM on July 8, 2020
Oh! I have aluminum wiring and have been through this and a small fire several times over the past 7 years. I’ve had to rerun copper wire, I’ve been doing it piecemeal as I can afford it but yeah, check if you have aluminum, that stuff SUCKS
posted by yodelingisfun at 2:21 PM on July 9, 2020
posted by yodelingisfun at 2:21 PM on July 9, 2020
As mitheral said, it is unlikely to be aluminum unless extensive re-wiring occurred after the house was built. The OP said they had a fuse box and those were phased out in the early 1960s. Aluminum wiring came on the scene after that.
As has been mentioned, the obvious thing is to ask you neighbors if they had the same problem. If they did, then the problem was not local to your house. If they didn't, then you should certainly call the electrical company and if necessary, an electrician.
posted by JackFlash at 2:33 PM on July 9, 2020
As has been mentioned, the obvious thing is to ask you neighbors if they had the same problem. If they did, then the problem was not local to your house. If they didn't, then you should certainly call the electrical company and if necessary, an electrician.
posted by JackFlash at 2:33 PM on July 9, 2020
Response by poster: So the electrician was here for three days. The search for the problem was complicated by the fact that there was a storm and the power went out to the whole house and the whole neighbourhood during this time. So he could check each outlet and fixture and fix anything that looked wonky (and plenty looked wonky, in fact one problem serious enough that he was sure he'd fixed it), but without power he couldn't know for sure. Also, the first two days, it was only one guy, so they couldn't do the thing where they send some signal through from one place and someone at another place watches for the signal. Today (third day) two guys came so they could do that.
Anyway, the problem was found, finally. I asked him, "could this the kind of problem that could have started a fire?" and he said "It DID start a fire. The fire didn't spread because it was in the metal box." He showed me the melted caps.
Oh, and yes, we did have Hydro come out before the electrician. They said that both legs were coming into the house and all fuses showed full power. They replaced everything between the post and the house and then pulled the metre off and did something there, too. That didnt fix it, so we called the electrician next.
Thanks for pushing to call an electrician even though power returned! (oh I forgot to mention that part, too...it returned, but then it went out again the next day and never came back).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:18 PM on July 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
Anyway, the problem was found, finally. I asked him, "could this the kind of problem that could have started a fire?" and he said "It DID start a fire. The fire didn't spread because it was in the metal box." He showed me the melted caps.
Oh, and yes, we did have Hydro come out before the electrician. They said that both legs were coming into the house and all fuses showed full power. They replaced everything between the post and the house and then pulled the metre off and did something there, too. That didnt fix it, so we called the electrician next.
Thanks for pushing to call an electrician even though power returned! (oh I forgot to mention that part, too...it returned, but then it went out again the next day and never came back).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:18 PM on July 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
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No matter what, test all your smoke detectors and update/add some if necessary. Some of them mount with a sticker and come with a built-in 10yr battery, those are an easy way to increase fire safety if you are concerned about that. Also an IR thermometer can help you to check for possible heat sources and assure you nothing is smoldering, they are handy for lots of household stuff and inexpensive (I got mine for around $25) .
posted by SaltySalticid at 1:31 PM on July 7, 2020