It's all a spectrum
June 21, 2020 6:03 AM Subscribe
Still questioning my gender and sexuality in my 30s. Help me figure it out?
I'm a male-bodied person in my 30s, and I've never felt fully at home in my body, or with my gender. Some of that is due to growing up as a minority in a very white state, but some of it is due to not feeling particularly attached to masculinity. I'm not into most stereotypically masculine things, and generally have gravitated towards more traditionally feminine things in my adult life.
I like to listen, I like talking about emotions and like to connect with people on a deeper level. I have generally had more femme friends as an adult, and feel closer to them than my male friends. I've often wondered what it would be like to be a woman and have felt longing for some of the camaraderie and interactions I observed with the women in my life.
Additionally, I've generally felt more comfortable in queer spaces and with queer folks, but when it comes to events that are queer-only I often wonder/feel like I'm not queer enough. I can code-switch for straight spaces but it feels like an act. In the end I feel like I'm not straight enough for straight spaces, but not queer enough for queer spaces.
I know sexuality is a spectrum, and I would say I'm primarily attracted to femme-bodied folks, but there have been a couple men in my life where I felt a sense of connection/attraction to them, but it wasn't something that there was ever an opportunity to explore. There might be an element of demisexuality? Regardless, struggles with anxiety, depression, and the difficulties of dating as a minority in a not super diverse state have meant that I haven't had a ton of dating experience for my age, which I try not to let affect my confidence but it does. It also meant I never really got the chance to do much exploration during the ages when people usually do that.
It feels weird to still be figuring out my gender and sexuality in my thirties, but it's something that still sticks with me.
Can any of you recommend books/podcasts/other media I can read or listen to that can help me get a better sense of those things? Have any of you struggled with gender/sexual identity later in life and would you have any advice? Queer BIPOC folks I would love to hear your experiences as well.
I'm a male-bodied person in my 30s, and I've never felt fully at home in my body, or with my gender. Some of that is due to growing up as a minority in a very white state, but some of it is due to not feeling particularly attached to masculinity. I'm not into most stereotypically masculine things, and generally have gravitated towards more traditionally feminine things in my adult life.
I like to listen, I like talking about emotions and like to connect with people on a deeper level. I have generally had more femme friends as an adult, and feel closer to them than my male friends. I've often wondered what it would be like to be a woman and have felt longing for some of the camaraderie and interactions I observed with the women in my life.
Additionally, I've generally felt more comfortable in queer spaces and with queer folks, but when it comes to events that are queer-only I often wonder/feel like I'm not queer enough. I can code-switch for straight spaces but it feels like an act. In the end I feel like I'm not straight enough for straight spaces, but not queer enough for queer spaces.
I know sexuality is a spectrum, and I would say I'm primarily attracted to femme-bodied folks, but there have been a couple men in my life where I felt a sense of connection/attraction to them, but it wasn't something that there was ever an opportunity to explore. There might be an element of demisexuality? Regardless, struggles with anxiety, depression, and the difficulties of dating as a minority in a not super diverse state have meant that I haven't had a ton of dating experience for my age, which I try not to let affect my confidence but it does. It also meant I never really got the chance to do much exploration during the ages when people usually do that.
It feels weird to still be figuring out my gender and sexuality in my thirties, but it's something that still sticks with me.
Can any of you recommend books/podcasts/other media I can read or listen to that can help me get a better sense of those things? Have any of you struggled with gender/sexual identity later in life and would you have any advice? Queer BIPOC folks I would love to hear your experiences as well.
You might like Vivek Shraya's short book I'm Afraid of Men.
Also I'd like to gently push back on the phrasing (femme-bodied) that suggests that any bodies are inherently femme or not. Not (in this case) in the spirit of language-policing for others' comfort but in the spirit of how that can shape and reinforce ideas about bodies and gender.
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:33 AM on June 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also I'd like to gently push back on the phrasing (femme-bodied) that suggests that any bodies are inherently femme or not. Not (in this case) in the spirit of language-policing for others' comfort but in the spirit of how that can shape and reinforce ideas about bodies and gender.
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:33 AM on June 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Something that may help: I was well into my thirties before I realized That I fall into a blind spot in our society. The gender that does it for me sexually is not the same gender I emotionally bond with.
For me it’s not a near thing either. Sexually I lean very much towards the heterosexual end of the spectrum. On the separate spectrum we have no common name for ("pair-bonding"?) I’m way down towards men.
One nice thing about working these things out later in life is that you have a track record. You can greatly augment your understanding by simply looking back and saying "Well how have I been spending my time?" I found that to be a far more useful exercise than going through society’s pre-fab list of archetypes.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:49 AM on June 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
For me it’s not a near thing either. Sexually I lean very much towards the heterosexual end of the spectrum. On the separate spectrum we have no common name for ("pair-bonding"?) I’m way down towards men.
One nice thing about working these things out later in life is that you have a track record. You can greatly augment your understanding by simply looking back and saying "Well how have I been spending my time?" I found that to be a far more useful exercise than going through society’s pre-fab list of archetypes.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:49 AM on June 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
Other people will be better equipped with language and resources for helping you figure things out, but I did want to chime in to say it's 100% normal to still be figuring yourself out in your 30's. I'm still figuring myself out in my 40's, and at this point I expect that to continue indefinitely.
More to the point, it's also normal and okay to be something now that you didn't used to be - or to be something tomorrow that you're not right now. You don't have to figure it out now and get a permanent tattoo or anything; you're allowed to change as you learn and grow. Through your whole life, you'll meet different people who will interest you and impact you in different ways. I kind of feel like the coolest thing about being queer is getting to explore that.
posted by invincible summer at 7:00 AM on June 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
More to the point, it's also normal and okay to be something now that you didn't used to be - or to be something tomorrow that you're not right now. You don't have to figure it out now and get a permanent tattoo or anything; you're allowed to change as you learn and grow. Through your whole life, you'll meet different people who will interest you and impact you in different ways. I kind of feel like the coolest thing about being queer is getting to explore that.
posted by invincible summer at 7:00 AM on June 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
I un-struggled with gender identity later in life. Once I fully grasped that really my gender just does what it does, and my attractions do what they do, and there's a whole lifetime to explore that in - such a relief!
I joined an older-leaning queer space as the only out "non gay" person, and soon after that a few other folks joined, at least one of whom said she joined because she saw me and was relieved to see trans/NB identities represented. Then we gently prodded folks about becoming more aware and welcoming towards trans/NB folks, education and sharing of stories commenced, and the more work we do, the more the space becomes open to different queer narratives.
posted by quacks like a duck at 7:30 AM on June 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
I joined an older-leaning queer space as the only out "non gay" person, and soon after that a few other folks joined, at least one of whom said she joined because she saw me and was relieved to see trans/NB identities represented. Then we gently prodded folks about becoming more aware and welcoming towards trans/NB folks, education and sharing of stories commenced, and the more work we do, the more the space becomes open to different queer narratives.
posted by quacks like a duck at 7:30 AM on June 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
There are men out there who are heterosexual and also very touchy feely. I belong to an open hearted discussion group and it’s half men. Your description of yourself reminds me of my old boss, a feminine ish rainbow socks and sandals kind of guy who was married to a woman and had kids. And of my dearest friend, a soft spoken researcher, talks about his feelings, also married to a woman. My coworker who is part of a poetry discussion group. There’s lots of guys like you.
It sounds like you need to find your tribe, and to give yourself permission to completely be yourself in all its Colors and shades of grey, and it doesn’t have to have a tidy box for it. And, at the same time that you may not fit in perfectly to every social spot and that’s honest too. I grappled for years till I realized while I’m a far gone hippie crystal psychonaut I’m also a total pragmatic moderate, and my inner world matches my outer world in a way that’s clear to me and I stopped needing to refine a definition for other people (or myself). Because I like it, because I want to and no one is hurt by it, is reason enough.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:07 AM on June 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
It sounds like you need to find your tribe, and to give yourself permission to completely be yourself in all its Colors and shades of grey, and it doesn’t have to have a tidy box for it. And, at the same time that you may not fit in perfectly to every social spot and that’s honest too. I grappled for years till I realized while I’m a far gone hippie crystal psychonaut I’m also a total pragmatic moderate, and my inner world matches my outer world in a way that’s clear to me and I stopped needing to refine a definition for other people (or myself). Because I like it, because I want to and no one is hurt by it, is reason enough.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:07 AM on June 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
For me it’s not a near thing either. Sexually I lean very much towards the heterosexual end of the spectrum. On the separate spectrum we have no common name for ("pair-bonding"?) I’m way down towards men.
Not to derail, but there is a name for this - homoromantic. Most days I'd describe myself as bisexual and homoromantic.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:18 AM on June 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
Not to derail, but there is a name for this - homoromantic. Most days I'd describe myself as bisexual and homoromantic.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:18 AM on June 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
Sometimes you don't know what you are until your 50s (waves hand). Sometimes even older; there are, for example, trans people who are just getting their journey started in their 60s and 70s. Anyone who says that you stop growing and changing and re-evaluating yourself as you get older is not someone you should be listening to for life advice, because it's bollocks. The #1 key attribute of humanity that makes us humans is adaptability; change is the only constant. Be all you can be: yourself, even if (especially if) who you are is a moving target.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:39 AM on June 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:39 AM on June 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
Here is a short comic about figuring out your gender and sexuality in your thirties, by Alison Wilgus.
posted by yarntheory at 9:42 AM on June 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by yarntheory at 9:42 AM on June 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm not into most stereotypically masculine things, and generally have gravitated towards more traditionally feminine things in my adult life.
When thinking about your gender identity remember that the things we define as "masculine" or "feminine" in our culture are tightly tied to the sexism embedded in it. You call it "stereotypical" yourself. Not having a tie to those stereotypes doesn't equate to not being a man. Rather it can be an indicator of exactly how wrong and toxic those stereotypes are, because you can defy them and still be a man. Obviously I am not saying ignore those questioning feelings, just make sure that they aren't based around societal messages of what men are supposed to be.
posted by Anonymous at 10:05 AM on June 21, 2020
When thinking about your gender identity remember that the things we define as "masculine" or "feminine" in our culture are tightly tied to the sexism embedded in it. You call it "stereotypical" yourself. Not having a tie to those stereotypes doesn't equate to not being a man. Rather it can be an indicator of exactly how wrong and toxic those stereotypes are, because you can defy them and still be a man. Obviously I am not saying ignore those questioning feelings, just make sure that they aren't based around societal messages of what men are supposed to be.
posted by Anonymous at 10:05 AM on June 21, 2020
Sexuality is something we can define and re-define for ourselves through our entire lives. And you're queer enough!
posted by DarlingBri at 11:08 AM on June 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 11:08 AM on June 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
I’m Asian American and assigned male at birth. I didn’t really unlock my gender feelings until I was around 40. Looking back, I can see signs throughout my earlier life, many of them things I told myself, “all kids do.” Maybe they do, maybe they don’t, but my point is, I couldn’t academically figure it all out, I had to give myself permission to try things. That started with more feminine clothing, including starting to wear things made as womenswear.
What’s that look like today? Non-binary and pansexual are the open and freeing terms I embrace. Most of my wardrobe is from the women’s department. My pronouns are they/them. I refuse to say I have it all figured out and give myself the grace to be ever learning and evolving.
posted by advicepig at 12:08 PM on June 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
What’s that look like today? Non-binary and pansexual are the open and freeing terms I embrace. Most of my wardrobe is from the women’s department. My pronouns are they/them. I refuse to say I have it all figured out and give myself the grace to be ever learning and evolving.
posted by advicepig at 12:08 PM on June 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
I recommend the Coming Out with Lauren & Nicole podcast.
You may also find Two Bi Guys interesting.
posted by Arctic Circle at 12:42 PM on June 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
You may also find Two Bi Guys interesting.
posted by Arctic Circle at 12:42 PM on June 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Another thing to keep in mind is that how you identify, how you present, and how people treat you are all things that can vary separately. "Nonbinary" doesn't have to mean "uses they/them pronouns," "doesn't transition medically," or "dresses in a gender-neutral way" (or "with glitter-makeup-and-a-beard flamboyance").
My presentation is somewhere between "dyke dirtbag" and "queer dude," but I use she/her pronouns and I've had transfeminine bottom surgery. I'm nonbinary.
My AMAB partner, who looks for all the world like a very feminine trans woman, uses they/them pronouns. They're also nonbinary. (But we have friends who dress about the same and are binary trans women. Being nonbinary doesn't have to mean looking any different.)
My AMAB ex looks for all the world like a cis gay dude, he uses he/him pronouns, and you won't find out how he feels about gender unless he's in the mood to talk about it. He's also nonbinary — and not in any way confused or repressed about it.
So how do you figure it out? Try stuff. I didn't set out ten years ago to be a post-op nonbinary bear-dyke on estrogen. I decided I felt like trying she/her pronouns, just for a weekend. And then for a week. And then I decided to tell more of my friends. And then there were a bunch more experiments. (Makeup? Different pronouns? Less makeup again? Hormones? Longer hair? Start researching surgery?) Basically I just kept trying things until I was somewhere I wanted to be.
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:56 PM on June 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
My presentation is somewhere between "dyke dirtbag" and "queer dude," but I use she/her pronouns and I've had transfeminine bottom surgery. I'm nonbinary.
My AMAB partner, who looks for all the world like a very feminine trans woman, uses they/them pronouns. They're also nonbinary. (But we have friends who dress about the same and are binary trans women. Being nonbinary doesn't have to mean looking any different.)
My AMAB ex looks for all the world like a cis gay dude, he uses he/him pronouns, and you won't find out how he feels about gender unless he's in the mood to talk about it. He's also nonbinary — and not in any way confused or repressed about it.
So how do you figure it out? Try stuff. I didn't set out ten years ago to be a post-op nonbinary bear-dyke on estrogen. I decided I felt like trying she/her pronouns, just for a weekend. And then for a week. And then I decided to tell more of my friends. And then there were a bunch more experiments. (Makeup? Different pronouns? Less makeup again? Hormones? Longer hair? Start researching surgery?) Basically I just kept trying things until I was somewhere I wanted to be.
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:56 PM on June 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
are you struggling primarily with what you call yourself, or with what you want to do? because there isn't any need for the former to keep pace with the latter. if you know you want to change something to increase comfort, physically or socially, you can do it first and think of the name for it later.
please do not misunderstand me as influenced by pernicious rhetoric when I say what is simply true: that people of any gender can do whatever they want. but I mean that in an encouraging and, ideally, a liberating way: women don't have special rights to femininity that you don't have, even if you aren't sure yet if you belong to our numbers (and even if you decide that you don't.) your clothes, your hormones, your self-presentation, your sexual partners, and your community are all up to you.
I've often wondered what it would be like to be a woman and have felt longing for some of the camaraderie and interactions I observed with the women in my life.
You sound like you know yourself and what you want, and I wish you every happiness. if you badly want to be in the company of women as an insider, it is worthwhile to pursue that want. and it is true that lots of women including me are more open and frank and generous with people we perceive as other women; if that's something you want you can absolutely have it.
but there is no use romanticizing us (an "us" that includes you, if you want! and if it does, you would not be the first woman to have romanticized our own social culture(s), we do it all the time, I am not trying to call you out for any offense here, and certainly I am not trying to rhetorically exclude you.)
what it is is, you know when you're code-switching because it's you, you're inside yourself. but lots of female camaraderie is code in the same way. just because cis women do it doesn't mean it's not every bit as artificial as slapping each other on the back and saying Bro a lot, or whatever it is masculine people do to bond. I happen to think that femininity is better and more fun than most of the alternatives, but that doesn't mean it's more real, even when I'm engaged in cooperatively producing it.
I shouldn't and wouldn't assume you don't know this and I am not pointing it out to say Oh ho ho, you don't know as much about women as you think you do. nothing like that. it's just that the experience of feeling on the outside of some perceived female group knowledge is one common to women of every background; I think it is actually a more common female experience than feeling on the inside. it's the other side of female social culture, which I agree is great. but like all collaborative imaginative productions, it doesn't come all that naturally except to the lucky few. "I wish I could have this, but" is as female a sentence-opener as there ever could be in a world without such things as female sentences.
but I hope you continue to feel the same positivity about typically female modes of communication if and when you feel more entitled to participate and not just observe. some people do. and if you think you would like to be entitled, you are.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:06 PM on June 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
please do not misunderstand me as influenced by pernicious rhetoric when I say what is simply true: that people of any gender can do whatever they want. but I mean that in an encouraging and, ideally, a liberating way: women don't have special rights to femininity that you don't have, even if you aren't sure yet if you belong to our numbers (and even if you decide that you don't.) your clothes, your hormones, your self-presentation, your sexual partners, and your community are all up to you.
I've often wondered what it would be like to be a woman and have felt longing for some of the camaraderie and interactions I observed with the women in my life.
You sound like you know yourself and what you want, and I wish you every happiness. if you badly want to be in the company of women as an insider, it is worthwhile to pursue that want. and it is true that lots of women including me are more open and frank and generous with people we perceive as other women; if that's something you want you can absolutely have it.
but there is no use romanticizing us (an "us" that includes you, if you want! and if it does, you would not be the first woman to have romanticized our own social culture(s), we do it all the time, I am not trying to call you out for any offense here, and certainly I am not trying to rhetorically exclude you.)
what it is is, you know when you're code-switching because it's you, you're inside yourself. but lots of female camaraderie is code in the same way. just because cis women do it doesn't mean it's not every bit as artificial as slapping each other on the back and saying Bro a lot, or whatever it is masculine people do to bond. I happen to think that femininity is better and more fun than most of the alternatives, but that doesn't mean it's more real, even when I'm engaged in cooperatively producing it.
I shouldn't and wouldn't assume you don't know this and I am not pointing it out to say Oh ho ho, you don't know as much about women as you think you do. nothing like that. it's just that the experience of feeling on the outside of some perceived female group knowledge is one common to women of every background; I think it is actually a more common female experience than feeling on the inside. it's the other side of female social culture, which I agree is great. but like all collaborative imaginative productions, it doesn't come all that naturally except to the lucky few. "I wish I could have this, but" is as female a sentence-opener as there ever could be in a world without such things as female sentences.
but I hope you continue to feel the same positivity about typically female modes of communication if and when you feel more entitled to participate and not just observe. some people do. and if you think you would like to be entitled, you are.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:06 PM on June 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
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In fact, this is one of the biggest reasons why people like to insist on "queer" as an umbrella term. You can belong without having fully figured out why. You can know you're queer without understanding the details.
I knew something was up with my gender an orientation from an early age, but the details were fuzzy. By high school, most of my friends were queer without my even trying — it was just who I got along with — but I had no idea what to call myself, since I tended to date members of the "opposite" "sex." I tried coming out as trans a few times, and backed down each time. It took me until 30 to be confident saying out loud that I wasn't cis and sticking to my guns. In my mid 30s I came out as trans to the world, admitted to a smaller group of friends that I was nonbinary, and started social and medical transition. I still have no idea what, beyond "queer," to call my sexual orientation.
I had a lot of "not queer enough" feelings all through that. But I also benefitted so much from having other queer friends, and especially from having trans friends and AMAB nonbinary friends who were comfortable talking to me about gender even when I insisted I was probably cis. After I transitioned, a few said "Yeah, we knew. We just didn't think it would help you if we pushed. You had to figure stuff out for yourself." And I think they were probably right. But getting to hang out and take up a little sliver of space in the community while I figured it out made a big difference.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:26 AM on June 21, 2020 [26 favorites]