Cash, career, calling
April 24, 2020 10:10 AM Subscribe
I had a career counselor tell me that first comes cash, then career, then calling. I thought it was interesting advice on how life should progress financially. Any thoughts on this way of seeing adult life?
I'm a 35 year old man, single with no kids and absolutely no attachments, currently working at Georgetown University in Washington D.C. I work a low paid job but I've put over a year in and now I can take advantage of a free master's degree (which I've been admitted into) in public relations and corporate communications, which isn't my passion but will help hone skills that I'll need later.
I would prefer to just go straight into academia teaching theology, but I don't feel I have the appropriate social skill set to transition straight into it. I feel like I need a bread and butter career to build those social skills, credibility and to enjoy my life a bit financially before going into the "calling" phase of my life, which I understand usually takes place later in life after establishment as an adult takes place. Especially since I know my "calling" stuff is not really financially lucrative, I would like to have a period of life where I enjoy financial success.
I'm a 35 year old man, single with no kids and absolutely no attachments, currently working at Georgetown University in Washington D.C. I work a low paid job but I've put over a year in and now I can take advantage of a free master's degree (which I've been admitted into) in public relations and corporate communications, which isn't my passion but will help hone skills that I'll need later.
I would prefer to just go straight into academia teaching theology, but I don't feel I have the appropriate social skill set to transition straight into it. I feel like I need a bread and butter career to build those social skills, credibility and to enjoy my life a bit financially before going into the "calling" phase of my life, which I understand usually takes place later in life after establishment as an adult takes place. Especially since I know my "calling" stuff is not really financially lucrative, I would like to have a period of life where I enjoy financial success.
Any thoughts? I think it doesn’t really work that way very often for academics, but I am not very familiar with academic theology.
But for most academics I know in the sciences, it’s the opposite: they accept low wages for a long time to pursue something they are passionate about, and eventually* get to a point of decent pay and very high job stability in academia, or higher pay and less stability in industry.
*at least traditionally. Academia is a lot different now and generally the advice here is to just not pursue graduate work in the humanities unless you are independently wealthy and can afford to have no job or job security at the end. Even in the sciences a lot of people have to settle for low pay and low stability, even with a strong cv and publication record.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:45 AM on April 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
But for most academics I know in the sciences, it’s the opposite: they accept low wages for a long time to pursue something they are passionate about, and eventually* get to a point of decent pay and very high job stability in academia, or higher pay and less stability in industry.
*at least traditionally. Academia is a lot different now and generally the advice here is to just not pursue graduate work in the humanities unless you are independently wealthy and can afford to have no job or job security at the end. Even in the sciences a lot of people have to settle for low pay and low stability, even with a strong cv and publication record.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:45 AM on April 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'd say that kind of linear thinking would take me nowhere. I prefer to think of my professional development in more holistic terms.
How about all the ways in which you can make the cash-jobs and the career-jobs support your calling? All PhD students I know who landed on their feet after it was over, all of them had relied on their other, non-academic strengths, skills, qualifications, to find that material stability. I'd not like to give advice on academia as a workplace, because others can do that much better than I can. But it seems like a good strategy as a whole (for risk management re: your odds of becoming a tenured academic after the PhD as well as to enhance your profile as a PhD holder in Theology) to use all the opportunities to develop skills and experiences that make sense for your profile.
Replace "corporate" with "organizational", and the degree in communications and public relations is highly transferrable. It would certainly prepare you to advocate more effectively for your own projects, funding, etc. as a professor!
And apart from that--who knows the people you'll meet? The chances you'll have to put the skills into practice in theology-adjacent spaces? Think of all the options you'll discover that you didn't know existed, that may be a better fit for your calling.
posted by ipsative at 10:56 AM on April 24, 2020
How about all the ways in which you can make the cash-jobs and the career-jobs support your calling? All PhD students I know who landed on their feet after it was over, all of them had relied on their other, non-academic strengths, skills, qualifications, to find that material stability. I'd not like to give advice on academia as a workplace, because others can do that much better than I can. But it seems like a good strategy as a whole (for risk management re: your odds of becoming a tenured academic after the PhD as well as to enhance your profile as a PhD holder in Theology) to use all the opportunities to develop skills and experiences that make sense for your profile.
Replace "corporate" with "organizational", and the degree in communications and public relations is highly transferrable. It would certainly prepare you to advocate more effectively for your own projects, funding, etc. as a professor!
And apart from that--who knows the people you'll meet? The chances you'll have to put the skills into practice in theology-adjacent spaces? Think of all the options you'll discover that you didn't know existed, that may be a better fit for your calling.
posted by ipsative at 10:56 AM on April 24, 2020
I had a career counselor tell me that first comes cash, then career, then calling.
I'd be quickly giving side-eye to anyone dishing out life advice who suggested that there is one path for all people. Their job should surely be to help you decide which order those three things sit in your own personal priorities and/or chronology. Then they can help you create a plan for working towards that balance.
posted by penguin pie at 11:07 AM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'd be quickly giving side-eye to anyone dishing out life advice who suggested that there is one path for all people. Their job should surely be to help you decide which order those three things sit in your own personal priorities and/or chronology. Then they can help you create a plan for working towards that balance.
posted by penguin pie at 11:07 AM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
My thoughts? Adult life starts way earlier than 35
posted by Cuspidx at 11:20 AM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Cuspidx at 11:20 AM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
I could imagine this sort of trajectory making sense if you wanted to, say, do marketing for a nonprofit in a field you're passionate about...you'd be able to better do the job with experience at a ad agency using state of the art practices first, plus you could save some money. But I don't see the logic of a PR job as a stepping stone to a teaching career.
posted by pinochiette at 11:23 AM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by pinochiette at 11:23 AM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
This is basically Maslow's hierarchy of needs, isn't it? Just repackaged with a catchphrase? You have to take care of security before you can think about self-actualization. It's true, to some extent. Like, "following your passion" isn't helpful if you end up living in a cardboard box and dumpster-diving for food. But it doesn't sound like you're in danger of that, and so I don't see why they have to be discrete. You can work on your calling concurrently with your career. That's why "side hustles" are so common these days.
The thing with your situation is that I don't really see one thing leading to another. I'm not an academic, but I have a pretty good understanding of academia, and the idea of getting a master's in PR to help you teach theology seems like a non-sequitur to me. Are you trying to do a James Martin kind of thing where you work in the private sector for a while before turning back to the church? If so, I don't think that's a plan. It's my understanding that people like James Martin didn't set out planning to do that; they started "normal" careers and then felt the call later in life. If you're feeling the call now, maybe lean into that?
I guess the Master's degree is free, so there's no real downside except for opportunity cost. If I were you, though, I'd start looking into theological pedagogy now, though. As others have mentioned, academic humanities careers are pretty lousy, and it's pretty likely that they'll be even worse after this coronavirus stuff. Instead, why not investigate other ways to teach theology outside traditional classrooms? I'm talking things like podcasts, YouTube videos, Instagram memes, email newsletters, etc. I follow a lot of humanities stuff, and I feel like I probably read more now than when I was an actual humanities undergraduate. That said, there's still a lot of opportunity, so plenty of places for you to carve out a niche. This also has the added benefit of making that Master's degree useful in terms of helping you package your theological content for maximum impact.
Basically, what I'm saying is to stop thinking about teaching theology as a potential future career change, and to start thinking of it as a side hustle that you can do right now.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:35 AM on April 24, 2020 [8 favorites]
The thing with your situation is that I don't really see one thing leading to another. I'm not an academic, but I have a pretty good understanding of academia, and the idea of getting a master's in PR to help you teach theology seems like a non-sequitur to me. Are you trying to do a James Martin kind of thing where you work in the private sector for a while before turning back to the church? If so, I don't think that's a plan. It's my understanding that people like James Martin didn't set out planning to do that; they started "normal" careers and then felt the call later in life. If you're feeling the call now, maybe lean into that?
I guess the Master's degree is free, so there's no real downside except for opportunity cost. If I were you, though, I'd start looking into theological pedagogy now, though. As others have mentioned, academic humanities careers are pretty lousy, and it's pretty likely that they'll be even worse after this coronavirus stuff. Instead, why not investigate other ways to teach theology outside traditional classrooms? I'm talking things like podcasts, YouTube videos, Instagram memes, email newsletters, etc. I follow a lot of humanities stuff, and I feel like I probably read more now than when I was an actual humanities undergraduate. That said, there's still a lot of opportunity, so plenty of places for you to carve out a niche. This also has the added benefit of making that Master's degree useful in terms of helping you package your theological content for maximum impact.
Basically, what I'm saying is to stop thinking about teaching theology as a potential future career change, and to start thinking of it as a side hustle that you can do right now.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:35 AM on April 24, 2020 [8 favorites]
It's a trajectory that kind of makes sense if you're thinking about building content knowledge and credibility in a single field over a long period of time. That first job in your field leads to becoming further entrenched in the field to the point that it begins to look like a viable career.
But it doesn't quite make sense in academia or for other careers where you're expected to front-load most of your training before starting your working life in earnest. It's a sort of thinking that isn't...uncommon among people who don't have the kind of privilege that most people in academia are probably working with. I don't just mean socioeconomic privilege, but cognitive privilege as well. Consider that many people never get past the "cash" stage because need to focus on keeping the lights on rather than making risky investments in their human capital.
Back to your point about thinking that you need to spend some time in PR to hone your social skills for an academic career. I'm curious about this; what skills do you think you're missing and why do you think it's important for you to spend more time in an unrelated career to develop those skills?
posted by blerghamot at 11:35 AM on April 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
But it doesn't quite make sense in academia or for other careers where you're expected to front-load most of your training before starting your working life in earnest. It's a sort of thinking that isn't...uncommon among people who don't have the kind of privilege that most people in academia are probably working with. I don't just mean socioeconomic privilege, but cognitive privilege as well. Consider that many people never get past the "cash" stage because need to focus on keeping the lights on rather than making risky investments in their human capital.
Back to your point about thinking that you need to spend some time in PR to hone your social skills for an academic career. I'm curious about this; what skills do you think you're missing and why do you think it's important for you to spend more time in an unrelated career to develop those skills?
posted by blerghamot at 11:35 AM on April 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also nthing kevinbelt's comment. Academia - just like other industries and to some extent even moreso - favours specialization and relative youth. When you think about that, taking a super-circuitous path to becoming an academic is probably not a great idea. This isn't like preparing for eventually becoming an adjunct based on your years of industry experience (that's one example where "cash, career, calling" makes sense).
posted by blerghamot at 11:41 AM on April 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by blerghamot at 11:41 AM on April 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
By all means, go ahead and use your free education benefit if you've got the time and interest in doing so. But it sounds like a detour away from, not a step toward, your ultimate goal. The path you're describing would not be a typical one toward a professor role. I won't say that it *couldn't* happen but it's unusual and you might make a lot more work for yourself trying to find your way back toward where you really want to be. It might be a better idea to go just go straight into the coursework you want, and if your social skills are not where you want them to be, take up self-improvement in that arena in your spare time.
All of that said, I'm someone whose adult life is intentionally and heavily tilted toward the kind of work I can leave behind at the end of the day and on weekends. I have a career but no need or desire for a calling in the work realm; my 'calling' to the extent I have one is about my personal life. So I may not be the kind of person you're looking to get advice from here.
You know who probably is? Theology professors. I wonder if you might spend some time looking at people who do what you want to do, learning about their backgrounds or perhaps even talking to some of them, and figuring out what kind of trajectory might get you from here to there.
posted by Stacey at 11:51 AM on April 24, 2020 [9 favorites]
All of that said, I'm someone whose adult life is intentionally and heavily tilted toward the kind of work I can leave behind at the end of the day and on weekends. I have a career but no need or desire for a calling in the work realm; my 'calling' to the extent I have one is about my personal life. So I may not be the kind of person you're looking to get advice from here.
You know who probably is? Theology professors. I wonder if you might spend some time looking at people who do what you want to do, learning about their backgrounds or perhaps even talking to some of them, and figuring out what kind of trajectory might get you from here to there.
posted by Stacey at 11:51 AM on April 24, 2020 [9 favorites]
In addition to my reply above, let me link to this answer I wrote five years ago in response to someone hoping to entering academia. I wrote a number of other answers to similar posts around that time too, which I will refer you to: this one, this one, this one, and this step by step instruction manual. And perhaps most saliently, you can also read my question from six years ago, when I was deep in the self-pitying throes of graduate school regret. With the clarity of distance, I stand by all of this at least as much now as I did then. The bitterness feels less viscerally sharp to me now since I was redeemed by a stroke of extracurricular serendipity, however academia almost ruined most aspects of my life - professional, intellectual, personal, and interpersonal.
I will repeat my advice above that I think it would be an enormous and life-shattering mistake for you to switch tracks to theology academia (a field with which I am not unfamiliar). Your odds of success are virtually nil: you're not going to make it in academia, and even if you did, you'd realize that it isn't what you hoped it was. And working hard to establish yourself in your current career and move from being low paid to being paid decently, and then switching over to academia, is arguably the worst of both worlds: you are basically resigning yourself for life to subordination, professional instability, and low pay. If you're going to make the ill-fated jump, do it as soon as possible. If you're good enough for academia, there's no skill set, social or otherwise, that you'd need that you'd learn from this Master's that you wouldn't learn during the PhD itself. And no point in progressing on your current path, maybe achieving some success, and then throwing yourself into the trench and starting at the bottom again. But I'd urge you to find some way to satisfy your theological passion on the side. Maybe plan to do a master's in theology after your current one. Or switch institutions in a few years (maybe to a seminary?) and put your professional skills to work in an environment that more closely aligns with your morals. Think about exactly what it is that you hoped to get out of theology academia, and figure out how to find it elsewhere. Whatever the solution to your professional life is, I promise you that it's not entering the academy. As I said previously in one of those threads, going to graduate school in the humanities to get out of a suboptimal career situation is the academic equivalent of deciding to have a baby to "save" a failing relationship.
posted by ClaireBear at 12:13 PM on April 24, 2020 [7 favorites]
I will repeat my advice above that I think it would be an enormous and life-shattering mistake for you to switch tracks to theology academia (a field with which I am not unfamiliar). Your odds of success are virtually nil: you're not going to make it in academia, and even if you did, you'd realize that it isn't what you hoped it was. And working hard to establish yourself in your current career and move from being low paid to being paid decently, and then switching over to academia, is arguably the worst of both worlds: you are basically resigning yourself for life to subordination, professional instability, and low pay. If you're going to make the ill-fated jump, do it as soon as possible. If you're good enough for academia, there's no skill set, social or otherwise, that you'd need that you'd learn from this Master's that you wouldn't learn during the PhD itself. And no point in progressing on your current path, maybe achieving some success, and then throwing yourself into the trench and starting at the bottom again. But I'd urge you to find some way to satisfy your theological passion on the side. Maybe plan to do a master's in theology after your current one. Or switch institutions in a few years (maybe to a seminary?) and put your professional skills to work in an environment that more closely aligns with your morals. Think about exactly what it is that you hoped to get out of theology academia, and figure out how to find it elsewhere. Whatever the solution to your professional life is, I promise you that it's not entering the academy. As I said previously in one of those threads, going to graduate school in the humanities to get out of a suboptimal career situation is the academic equivalent of deciding to have a baby to "save" a failing relationship.
posted by ClaireBear at 12:13 PM on April 24, 2020 [7 favorites]
If you plan to pursue theology, why would you do a masters in public relations? Because it's free is not a reason to do anything. That course is free because it locks you up in your job for another three years and there is a high chance you won't finish the degree but will keep working.
I used to work for a religion news radio show in DC, and met quite a few people who wanted to go into theological education. What did they do? They went to seminary, they studied, they often preached, they wrote for blogs and journals, and they wrote books. I honestly never encountered anyone who felt there was a problem in theology with someone who lacked social skills. Odds are, you're not being given accurate advice.
posted by parmanparman at 12:17 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
I used to work for a religion news radio show in DC, and met quite a few people who wanted to go into theological education. What did they do? They went to seminary, they studied, they often preached, they wrote for blogs and journals, and they wrote books. I honestly never encountered anyone who felt there was a problem in theology with someone who lacked social skills. Odds are, you're not being given accurate advice.
posted by parmanparman at 12:17 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
I mean kinda...I too escaped academia so I was flat broke until I was 29 and took a job outside of it. I didn't know what I wanted to do once I left except something data related, I took a data engineering job for the salary and then found out via my work there that it is my niche and I can see myself doing it forever. I doubt it's my "calling." That was definitely my art or academia, this is just...money and stability. It definitely does satisfy my ego though.
posted by Young Kullervo at 12:24 PM on April 24, 2020
posted by Young Kullervo at 12:24 PM on April 24, 2020
Like kevinbelt, I see it as a version of Maslow's theory and I kind of like it. I haven't heard it put this way before. Yes, of course it's a quip and won't apply to everyone and shouldn't be taken as gospel, but if you break it down it can make sense.
There is a huge disservice happening in the states, and I'm sure elsewhere as well, to "follow your dream" and "pursue your passion" but as we all know that's not always possible and even when it is, can lead to huge student loan debts for undergrad and master's degrees that will get you a mediocre or worse paying job that's not even what you really want to do.
So I interpret this as kind of take care of your present and future self first, financially, then see if you can develop that into a more passionate career. Obviously it still isn't always possible at this stage, but I do think it is one valid way to becoming passionate about your work. It also sets you up for future financial success, so even if you don't end up being passionate about your work, you may have a good salary and good work/life balance to easily pursue your passion outside of work. There are of course a lot of variables here.
I picked my career because I was good at the skills it required and I knew it paid well. I have a lot of friends in tons of student loan debt, in careers that pay crap, and while they may be passionate about the line of work in general, many hate their jobs. I don't love my current job but in general I've been happy in my career, and it's treated me well. And I'm thinking about how to translate the skills I've learned into something I'm more passionate about - may or may not be possible, but I'm in a good position, financially and experience-wise, to try.
Edit - I know nothing about academia, so trust everyone else on that!
posted by sillysally at 12:25 PM on April 24, 2020
There is a huge disservice happening in the states, and I'm sure elsewhere as well, to "follow your dream" and "pursue your passion" but as we all know that's not always possible and even when it is, can lead to huge student loan debts for undergrad and master's degrees that will get you a mediocre or worse paying job that's not even what you really want to do.
So I interpret this as kind of take care of your present and future self first, financially, then see if you can develop that into a more passionate career. Obviously it still isn't always possible at this stage, but I do think it is one valid way to becoming passionate about your work. It also sets you up for future financial success, so even if you don't end up being passionate about your work, you may have a good salary and good work/life balance to easily pursue your passion outside of work. There are of course a lot of variables here.
I picked my career because I was good at the skills it required and I knew it paid well. I have a lot of friends in tons of student loan debt, in careers that pay crap, and while they may be passionate about the line of work in general, many hate their jobs. I don't love my current job but in general I've been happy in my career, and it's treated me well. And I'm thinking about how to translate the skills I've learned into something I'm more passionate about - may or may not be possible, but I'm in a good position, financially and experience-wise, to try.
Edit - I know nothing about academia, so trust everyone else on that!
posted by sillysally at 12:25 PM on April 24, 2020
One final quick comment in reply to the suggestion to seek out theology professors and find more about the academic path from them. I'd urge caution. If you're going to do this, make sure that you primarily listen to people who got their PhDs no more than 5 years ago. The academy has changed rapidly in the last 20 years: it has gotten more competitive, more cutthroat. It's now about aggressive entrepreneurship and self-promotion, whereas it used to be more gentle and gentlemanly intellectual exploration. To put it frankly, many older professors would never be hired today, let alone get tenure. One of my professors during my Master's, who probably last searched for an academic job in the Reagan administration, gave me a totally unrealistic picture of the current climate and job market that unduly influenced my decision to pursue academia.
posted by ClaireBear at 12:25 PM on April 24, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by ClaireBear at 12:25 PM on April 24, 2020 [6 favorites]
I must also note that if I wanted to return to academia to earn my PhD after saving up enough money from my current career I could do so, but I would need to basically save up five years of a living wage to do so, given that most stipends are ridiculously low. I could probably do that in two to three years with my current salary and style of living. If it is truly my calling, then it can wait while I earn some dough.
posted by Young Kullervo at 12:29 PM on April 24, 2020
posted by Young Kullervo at 12:29 PM on April 24, 2020
Response by poster: ClaireBear, your response(s) rings true because my favorite professor (in religious studies at my undergrad instutition) told me that academia is a long and winding path with no guarantee of a fulfilling life. He said it can be enjoyable if you see the process as being rewarding in itself rather than the end result. But he made it sound like a perilous path. In the mouth of two or three witnesses…let every word be established.
I’ve gained a lot of insight from the thoughts here that suggest that “academia” as far as teaching theology should be pursued as a side hustle or a project outside my bread and butter career. It feels true because it seems most academics in the humanities and social sciences are not the happiest bunch and since I’ve been in low wage jobs most of my life, it seems like even with the potential fulfillment of doing something I like, the continued financial frustration would take away from the “glory”.
The great thing about advancing in your career financially is that you can make time for those passions outside of the bread and butter. I am sure what gives work its meaning is that it provides for things other than rent and food if you’re so privileged to be in that position. Which brings me to my next point.
Cuspidx, adult life does start way earlier than 35. I graduated late at age 25 with my B.A., then developed a schizophrenia like illness that caused me to crash and then stagnate for about seven years, so my career trajectory was cut off. I was highly dependent on family during that time and mostly worked as a custodian due to lack of confidence. With the right treatment, my career is definitely moving up. I started as a custodian at Georgetown and now I work in the engineering office in an administrative role. So this is really “the beginning” of my career, as odd as that sounds. I got off to a super late start. To be clear, I do see a psychiatrist, take medicine, and I’ve been in active recovery (meaning full-time employed and paying rent, living on my own) for several years now.
I agree with the comments that using a completely unrelated career like PR to transition to theology teaching doesn’t make much sense. Some things only make sense when others write them for you to see.
I do have some student debt (about 26k) so finding a career that is lucrative enough to pay that off in 3-5 years is something that would be nice. I think PR and the skills it teaches me will be good for my development in general. It will hone my persuasive writing skills and teach me how to help manage the reputation of the organization I work for. Since I’m more theologically inclined and a day dreamer, maybe those skills will help ground me in reality more and make me a more well rounded human, a more relatable person and thus a person more credible to teach theology.
Blerghamot, it’s really the foundational social skills that I feel I neglected from age 25 to 32 while in mental health treatment that I feel I need to build before going into something I’m super passionate about. However, these posts are helping me to see that, as long as you do something 9-5 that you don’t despise, it can be a route to enjoy those things outside of work if you’re compensated well enough. And from working my office job to this point, it’s clear that doing the 9-5 is it’s own reward in many ways. It feels honorable.
In summary, it feels like from what I’m reading that academia in the field I’m interested in is a dead end. I’m going to look for other ways to survive. If I really feel like a career in religion is good for me after my student loans are paid off, I might consider joining a monastery. It’s less of a grueling path than academia and might lead to a rewarding life. But that’s after I pay my loans (debt is not allowed for monks) and after establishing a good reputation in my community functions…work, volunteer, social life, etc. Good references are key in any field of life, but particularly to join a community of men living in close quarters striving to live a religious calling. In a sense I’m still “learning to be human”, so a few years in a career earning at least 50k (to get rid of student debt and build character) should ground me in reality a bit more and make me appreciate a future path that is less renumerating financially but is more peaceful and in line with my goals long-term.
posted by shirhashirim at 12:32 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
I’ve gained a lot of insight from the thoughts here that suggest that “academia” as far as teaching theology should be pursued as a side hustle or a project outside my bread and butter career. It feels true because it seems most academics in the humanities and social sciences are not the happiest bunch and since I’ve been in low wage jobs most of my life, it seems like even with the potential fulfillment of doing something I like, the continued financial frustration would take away from the “glory”.
The great thing about advancing in your career financially is that you can make time for those passions outside of the bread and butter. I am sure what gives work its meaning is that it provides for things other than rent and food if you’re so privileged to be in that position. Which brings me to my next point.
Cuspidx, adult life does start way earlier than 35. I graduated late at age 25 with my B.A., then developed a schizophrenia like illness that caused me to crash and then stagnate for about seven years, so my career trajectory was cut off. I was highly dependent on family during that time and mostly worked as a custodian due to lack of confidence. With the right treatment, my career is definitely moving up. I started as a custodian at Georgetown and now I work in the engineering office in an administrative role. So this is really “the beginning” of my career, as odd as that sounds. I got off to a super late start. To be clear, I do see a psychiatrist, take medicine, and I’ve been in active recovery (meaning full-time employed and paying rent, living on my own) for several years now.
I agree with the comments that using a completely unrelated career like PR to transition to theology teaching doesn’t make much sense. Some things only make sense when others write them for you to see.
I do have some student debt (about 26k) so finding a career that is lucrative enough to pay that off in 3-5 years is something that would be nice. I think PR and the skills it teaches me will be good for my development in general. It will hone my persuasive writing skills and teach me how to help manage the reputation of the organization I work for. Since I’m more theologically inclined and a day dreamer, maybe those skills will help ground me in reality more and make me a more well rounded human, a more relatable person and thus a person more credible to teach theology.
Blerghamot, it’s really the foundational social skills that I feel I neglected from age 25 to 32 while in mental health treatment that I feel I need to build before going into something I’m super passionate about. However, these posts are helping me to see that, as long as you do something 9-5 that you don’t despise, it can be a route to enjoy those things outside of work if you’re compensated well enough. And from working my office job to this point, it’s clear that doing the 9-5 is it’s own reward in many ways. It feels honorable.
In summary, it feels like from what I’m reading that academia in the field I’m interested in is a dead end. I’m going to look for other ways to survive. If I really feel like a career in religion is good for me after my student loans are paid off, I might consider joining a monastery. It’s less of a grueling path than academia and might lead to a rewarding life. But that’s after I pay my loans (debt is not allowed for monks) and after establishing a good reputation in my community functions…work, volunteer, social life, etc. Good references are key in any field of life, but particularly to join a community of men living in close quarters striving to live a religious calling. In a sense I’m still “learning to be human”, so a few years in a career earning at least 50k (to get rid of student debt and build character) should ground me in reality a bit more and make me appreciate a future path that is less renumerating financially but is more peaceful and in line with my goals long-term.
posted by shirhashirim at 12:32 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
I forgot to add - this also gives you time to find out what you're passionate about. Many people don't know at 18, 20, and beyond. I certainly didn't, but I started to discover it in my late 20s/early 30s, and now I'm lucky enough to maybe be able to use the skills I've learned to work in that field.
If I had known my passions at 18 I probably could have gone into that field sooner, but it would have looked a lot different. That's not good or bad. I probably would have had decent jobs, maybe paid a little less, who knows. Maybe I would have hated it! But now I have clarity on what I want to do and transferable skills and I can choose what I want a lot more intentionally than I would have at 18.
Again, probably not relevant to academia.
posted by sillysally at 12:36 PM on April 24, 2020
If I had known my passions at 18 I probably could have gone into that field sooner, but it would have looked a lot different. That's not good or bad. I probably would have had decent jobs, maybe paid a little less, who knows. Maybe I would have hated it! But now I have clarity on what I want to do and transferable skills and I can choose what I want a lot more intentionally than I would have at 18.
Again, probably not relevant to academia.
posted by sillysally at 12:36 PM on April 24, 2020
Response by poster: kevinbelt, the person I had in mind was Thomas Merton. I had HEARD he was successful in business and then felt a "calling" to become a monk and writer. Maybe I'm mixing up the person in question.
posted by shirhashirim at 12:40 PM on April 24, 2020
posted by shirhashirim at 12:40 PM on April 24, 2020
[oops i really messed up the italics on that one - hit post too soon!]
posted by sillysally at 12:44 PM on April 24, 2020
posted by sillysally at 12:44 PM on April 24, 2020
Re: career in theology and your interest in a monastery, I wonder if the career of Karen Armstrong would be interesting to you - she is a respected author and teacher but her expertise is experiential; she did not come from a formal background.
If it's a free masters program, I could see a lot of transferable benefits from a PR/comms degree program, as said by some above. If your passion is communication (whether communicating spiritual truths or business talking points), having a better understanding of that craft will serve you well whatever you do.
You also didn't mention this in your original question - I'm wondering if you are currently active in a church/other spiritual community. I've had friends interested in pursuing theology who were helped in their decision by taking on leadership roles in their congregations.
posted by rogerroger at 1:00 PM on April 24, 2020
If it's a free masters program, I could see a lot of transferable benefits from a PR/comms degree program, as said by some above. If your passion is communication (whether communicating spiritual truths or business talking points), having a better understanding of that craft will serve you well whatever you do.
You also didn't mention this in your original question - I'm wondering if you are currently active in a church/other spiritual community. I've had friends interested in pursuing theology who were helped in their decision by taking on leadership roles in their congregations.
posted by rogerroger at 1:00 PM on April 24, 2020
Response by poster: Roger, yes, I'm currently active in a church setting. I value the worship and community in and of itself, but I'm also trying to establish "roots" so that when the time comes to refer me to something I might enjoy, whether theology schooling (casual) or monastic life, having the recommendation of a priest would be foundational.
posted by shirhashirim at 1:06 PM on April 24, 2020
posted by shirhashirim at 1:06 PM on April 24, 2020
It sounds like maybe you haven’t read Merton’s autobiography, The Seven Story Mountain, yet. Merton went straight from grad school to the monastery, without working in business. He also didn’t plan to write, but was told to by the monastery head. I’d really suggest starting there if you find Merton’s story compelling.
Have you done any retreats at monasteries? Many offer that experience, and it might give you some clarity about what you want. I stayed a few days at a monastery in Michigan a few months ago, and it was a great experience (not a formal retreat though). The one I stayed at offers retreats specifically for men who think they may be called to monastic life.
posted by FencingGal at 1:08 PM on April 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
Have you done any retreats at monasteries? Many offer that experience, and it might give you some clarity about what you want. I stayed a few days at a monastery in Michigan a few months ago, and it was a great experience (not a formal retreat though). The one I stayed at offers retreats specifically for men who think they may be called to monastic life.
posted by FencingGal at 1:08 PM on April 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
it’s really the foundational social skills that I feel I neglected from age 25 to 32 while in mental health treatment that I feel I need to build before going into something I’m super passionate about.
Thanks for sharing more of your background. I'm sorry to hear of your struggles but it sounds like things have really stabilized for you. So, bear with me because this is going to sound terrible, but think of it this way: let's say your psychosocial development was completely nil between 25 and 32. I'm sure it wasn't, but let's say that it was to set up a worst-case scenario here. If you're at a maturity level closer to your average mid-20-something, or even your average 22-year-old, remember that you'll probably be in grad school with people who are chronologically in their early-mid-20s. And they transition to academic careers just fine at age 27 or so.
My point is that you're looking at transitioning to an environment that, for the most part is predominantly made up of, and does an okay job of accommodating people who typically aren't operating with full-faceted "adult" life experience. All that considered, if you're admissible to a theology program now and that's what you want to focus on regardless of everyone's disclaimers, it's probably something you're capable of provided that your mental health care continues to be well-managed.
posted by blerghamot at 1:10 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
Thanks for sharing more of your background. I'm sorry to hear of your struggles but it sounds like things have really stabilized for you. So, bear with me because this is going to sound terrible, but think of it this way: let's say your psychosocial development was completely nil between 25 and 32. I'm sure it wasn't, but let's say that it was to set up a worst-case scenario here. If you're at a maturity level closer to your average mid-20-something, or even your average 22-year-old, remember that you'll probably be in grad school with people who are chronologically in their early-mid-20s. And they transition to academic careers just fine at age 27 or so.
My point is that you're looking at transitioning to an environment that, for the most part is predominantly made up of, and does an okay job of accommodating people who typically aren't operating with full-faceted "adult" life experience. All that considered, if you're admissible to a theology program now and that's what you want to focus on regardless of everyone's disclaimers, it's probably something you're capable of provided that your mental health care continues to be well-managed.
posted by blerghamot at 1:10 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
BYW, two of the monks at the monastery where I stayed had PhDs, one in Spanish and one in music. So perhaps monasteries are another refuge for the ex-academic.
(As an ex-PhD student myself, I think ClaireBear is right.)
posted by FencingGal at 1:17 PM on April 24, 2020
(As an ex-PhD student myself, I think ClaireBear is right.)
posted by FencingGal at 1:17 PM on April 24, 2020
Response by poster: FencingGal, thanks for the recommendation! I'll look more into that. My religious studies professor in undergrad told me that the first academics were in fact monks. Think of the ancient scribes and those copying holy books. I consulted with a Russian priest chaplain here at Georgetown awhile back who has a Ph.D and also a monastic background. Maybe that's why I feel led to what feels like something that is in fact a two headed beast but I didn't know which side of the beast I wanted.
posted by shirhashirim at 1:26 PM on April 24, 2020
posted by shirhashirim at 1:26 PM on April 24, 2020
Mod note: Heya, shirshashirim, keep in mind Ask MeFi isn't intended to be an ongoing exchange with the asker, more just ask a question, get some answers. If you find you need to make a clarifying expanding comment in a question once or twice, that's fine, but please throttle back on the responses at this point.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:29 PM on April 24, 2020
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:29 PM on April 24, 2020
I am very lucky to have found my calling in life. I found it through the doing of a thing, though. I got a job to fit the "cash/career" part of my life, and through doing it, I realized that the field it was in is my calling. I wouldn't have discovered or realized that through academic preparation. I had to get out there and experience it. And once I was in the field, I had a much better idea of what academics I could pursue to make myself more useful to that field, and I had more insight when I finally went back to do more academics.
If this isn't already something you're doing, is there a way to apply this to your life? Are there volunteer opportunities that would let you get active in theology in a way that helps clarify your direction?
An expression I read on a greeting card once really stuck with me and feels relevant here: We find our path through walking it.
posted by cadge at 1:36 PM on April 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
If this isn't already something you're doing, is there a way to apply this to your life? Are there volunteer opportunities that would let you get active in theology in a way that helps clarify your direction?
An expression I read on a greeting card once really stuck with me and feels relevant here: We find our path through walking it.
posted by cadge at 1:36 PM on April 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
When you first posted, I wasn’t sure if you meant “calling” in a religious sense, so thanks for clarifying that you are personally active in a religious community.
To me, a calling in the religious sense is something God is specifically asking you or inviting you to do - for your lifetime or for a time. I think it usually dovetails with your own background and interests and special gifts, but there can certainly be parts that are new or scary.
I agree with others who have suggested you don’t do a PR program, even if it’s free, but rather look into a free or affordable program that is directly related to theology. If you can’t find a program that will work, I think you’d be better off using your energy to study on your own - learn Ancient Greek or ask a priest for their top ten books they read in seminary or whatever applies to your religious context.
There are a lot of opportunities we get in life. I used to compulsively say yes to them all, but I found that I have to say no to some so I have room to say yes to the ones that really matter. A religious calling is about the most important opportunity you may get in your life. Say yes with everything you’ve got, even if your future is uncertain and the path looks hard.
Remember that any religious community worth its salt will guide you through a period of discernment before they, say, send you off to seminary or have you join their monastery. During that time and process, be as honest as you possibly can with yourself and others. You may find you don’t really have a calling - that instead you have an interest or even a passion. That’s okay. Then you keep that interest or passion in your life as a “side hustle” (or volunteer work or whatever) and pay the bills another way. But if you find out it’s a true calling, one where you really hear God calling you to do a specific thing, do it. Your religious community should support you and help you figure out how to pay the bills while doing it.
I’m happy to talk more, including about my own experience with possible callings and discernment, via MeMail if you want.
posted by bananacabana at 1:56 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
To me, a calling in the religious sense is something God is specifically asking you or inviting you to do - for your lifetime or for a time. I think it usually dovetails with your own background and interests and special gifts, but there can certainly be parts that are new or scary.
I agree with others who have suggested you don’t do a PR program, even if it’s free, but rather look into a free or affordable program that is directly related to theology. If you can’t find a program that will work, I think you’d be better off using your energy to study on your own - learn Ancient Greek or ask a priest for their top ten books they read in seminary or whatever applies to your religious context.
There are a lot of opportunities we get in life. I used to compulsively say yes to them all, but I found that I have to say no to some so I have room to say yes to the ones that really matter. A religious calling is about the most important opportunity you may get in your life. Say yes with everything you’ve got, even if your future is uncertain and the path looks hard.
Remember that any religious community worth its salt will guide you through a period of discernment before they, say, send you off to seminary or have you join their monastery. During that time and process, be as honest as you possibly can with yourself and others. You may find you don’t really have a calling - that instead you have an interest or even a passion. That’s okay. Then you keep that interest or passion in your life as a “side hustle” (or volunteer work or whatever) and pay the bills another way. But if you find out it’s a true calling, one where you really hear God calling you to do a specific thing, do it. Your religious community should support you and help you figure out how to pay the bills while doing it.
I’m happy to talk more, including about my own experience with possible callings and discernment, via MeMail if you want.
posted by bananacabana at 1:56 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
What a terrible career coach. Thing go the reverse - calling, then career, then cash.
Virtually anything you can label a "calling" has to start young. Anything that requires physical dexterity, speed or endurance, of course. Most other things too just because of the years of training and sometimes because of age discrimination -- lower levels of training/progress just aren't made available to people over a certain age.
Career is what you get when your calling has matured, or when you don't have a calling but do need to have a stable professional path in life, or when you age out your calling (e.g. ex ballplayers who become stockbrokers).
Cash is what you get from a career. No one has a chance of accumulating any real cash without a career, because only a career can give you the income you need to stay far enough ahead of expenses.
posted by MattD at 2:13 PM on April 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Virtually anything you can label a "calling" has to start young. Anything that requires physical dexterity, speed or endurance, of course. Most other things too just because of the years of training and sometimes because of age discrimination -- lower levels of training/progress just aren't made available to people over a certain age.
Career is what you get when your calling has matured, or when you don't have a calling but do need to have a stable professional path in life, or when you age out your calling (e.g. ex ballplayers who become stockbrokers).
Cash is what you get from a career. No one has a chance of accumulating any real cash without a career, because only a career can give you the income you need to stay far enough ahead of expenses.
posted by MattD at 2:13 PM on April 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
I strongly agree with ClaireBear's recommendation:
> Find a career path that that you at least somewhat enjoy (or at least that doesn't make you hate your life), has reasonable working conditions, that pays decently, and keep pursuing that.
Reasonable working conditions & decent pay are usually caused by situations where there's more market demand for that kind of work than there are people who can supply it. So, look for possible careers where there is likely to be a reasonable amount of stable demand over the next few decades, a shortage of people who are able to do it, and that doesn't require you to accumulate a large amount of debt in order to be trained to do it.
I also think cadge makes a very important point:
> I got a job to fit the "cash/career" part of my life, and through doing it, I realized that the field it was in is my calling. [...] I had to get out there and experience it. And once I was in the field, I had a much better idea of what academics I could pursue to make myself more useful to that field
I don't think it is true that each person has a single "calling" that they discover. There are many possible paths we can take in life, and once we start doing things we've never done before, we can often find contentment or enjoyment in parts of those activities -- at least some of the time -- even if they're work. It's probably the case that there are 100 different occupations with reasonable working conditions & decent pay, that could make a good career & could have aspects that are somewhat interesting or fulfilling to you some of the time. All things equal, since you don't really know before trying things out, I strongly suggest trying out careers that are likely to have better working conditions and better pay.
Life is a lot simpler when you're not struggling to keep your head above water financially. There's no reason that your job needs to be the most enjoyable or fulfilling activity in your life. I heartily recommend picking a career based largely on the working conditions & the pay.
Here's a pretty cold, mercantile way to frame the situation:
Everyone needs basic goods & services: shelter, food, water, heat when it is cold, occasional medical care. Non-basic goods & services like internet, coffee, books, a well-insulated bedroom, meals in restaurants with friends (or whatever floats your boat) can be pretty great too. Unless you are some rugged pioneering hunter-gatherer type, meeting your basic needs by extracting them from the natural environment, you need money to trade with others in exchange for these goods & services. So, what can you offer to trade? If somehow you already have a lot of wealth, you can trade that, otherwise there's not much option but to trade your time & labour (work).
What's the downside of trading your time & labour by working? You're left with less time & energy & health to allocate on other activities. There's basically two situations you can be in:
(a) there's an activity you most like spending your time & energy on, more than other activities, and through some weird quirk this activity is a kind of work in enough demand by other people that you can get paid a living wage to do it
(b) the activities you most prefer to spend time & energy aren't able to generate enough income to pay a living wage.
Most people are in situation (b): they need to work doing something to pay the bills, but working drains time & energy & health away from other things they'd prefer to be doing if the bills were already paid. In this situation it can make a lot of sense to search for a career that is both tolerable and sustainable (mentally, physically & ethically) but pays the highest amount of cash in exchange for your limited time & energy & health. If you only need to work 3 days a week to pay the bills & put aside some savings that leaves you with 4 days left to do whatever you want. Or, if you land a well paying job & are relatively frugal, investing savings & are lucky to avoid large unexpected expenses, maybe you only need to work for 20 years until you no longer need to be regularly employed and can then resume doing whatever activities you like all the time, instead of working for 55 years.
posted by are-coral-made at 4:02 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
> Find a career path that that you at least somewhat enjoy (or at least that doesn't make you hate your life), has reasonable working conditions, that pays decently, and keep pursuing that.
Reasonable working conditions & decent pay are usually caused by situations where there's more market demand for that kind of work than there are people who can supply it. So, look for possible careers where there is likely to be a reasonable amount of stable demand over the next few decades, a shortage of people who are able to do it, and that doesn't require you to accumulate a large amount of debt in order to be trained to do it.
I also think cadge makes a very important point:
> I got a job to fit the "cash/career" part of my life, and through doing it, I realized that the field it was in is my calling. [...] I had to get out there and experience it. And once I was in the field, I had a much better idea of what academics I could pursue to make myself more useful to that field
I don't think it is true that each person has a single "calling" that they discover. There are many possible paths we can take in life, and once we start doing things we've never done before, we can often find contentment or enjoyment in parts of those activities -- at least some of the time -- even if they're work. It's probably the case that there are 100 different occupations with reasonable working conditions & decent pay, that could make a good career & could have aspects that are somewhat interesting or fulfilling to you some of the time. All things equal, since you don't really know before trying things out, I strongly suggest trying out careers that are likely to have better working conditions and better pay.
Life is a lot simpler when you're not struggling to keep your head above water financially. There's no reason that your job needs to be the most enjoyable or fulfilling activity in your life. I heartily recommend picking a career based largely on the working conditions & the pay.
Here's a pretty cold, mercantile way to frame the situation:
Everyone needs basic goods & services: shelter, food, water, heat when it is cold, occasional medical care. Non-basic goods & services like internet, coffee, books, a well-insulated bedroom, meals in restaurants with friends (or whatever floats your boat) can be pretty great too. Unless you are some rugged pioneering hunter-gatherer type, meeting your basic needs by extracting them from the natural environment, you need money to trade with others in exchange for these goods & services. So, what can you offer to trade? If somehow you already have a lot of wealth, you can trade that, otherwise there's not much option but to trade your time & labour (work).
What's the downside of trading your time & labour by working? You're left with less time & energy & health to allocate on other activities. There's basically two situations you can be in:
(a) there's an activity you most like spending your time & energy on, more than other activities, and through some weird quirk this activity is a kind of work in enough demand by other people that you can get paid a living wage to do it
(b) the activities you most prefer to spend time & energy aren't able to generate enough income to pay a living wage.
Most people are in situation (b): they need to work doing something to pay the bills, but working drains time & energy & health away from other things they'd prefer to be doing if the bills were already paid. In this situation it can make a lot of sense to search for a career that is both tolerable and sustainable (mentally, physically & ethically) but pays the highest amount of cash in exchange for your limited time & energy & health. If you only need to work 3 days a week to pay the bills & put aside some savings that leaves you with 4 days left to do whatever you want. Or, if you land a well paying job & are relatively frugal, investing savings & are lucky to avoid large unexpected expenses, maybe you only need to work for 20 years until you no longer need to be regularly employed and can then resume doing whatever activities you like all the time, instead of working for 55 years.
posted by are-coral-made at 4:02 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
Cal Newport (also at Georgetown) would tell you to be So Good They Can't Ignore You.
posted by oceano at 4:56 PM on April 24, 2020
posted by oceano at 4:56 PM on April 24, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by ClaireBear at 10:41 AM on April 24, 2020 [30 favorites]