NYC-Dwelling Daughter Will Not Leave, Covid19 Edition
March 27, 2020 2:20 PM Subscribe
Adult daughter, mid 20's, lives with long-term BF in NYC. Both are able to work at home and while they both say NYC now is anxiety-producing and scary, they won't leave. His family lives about 2 hours away, I live in southern Vermont. How do we convince her to leave?
Both families have large enough houses for them to come and isolate for the recommended 2 weeks, we've offered to pick them up, to get them a car, whatever...they are saying that life now is scary but talking about leaving is causing them anxiety so they shut down the conversation.
In the past 3 or 4 weeks, I have twice suggested leaving; my 2 other kids have also spoken to her once about this. One of my kids left his big city to come to Vermont. We are all scared for them and it is obviously causing us a lot of anxiety. We're an emotionally honest family and pretty close and we are getting increasingly upset that she's really not hearing us and sort of doubling down on staying.
I am desperate for advice about what could possibly convince her. I do know that the rest of the family is not okay with "her life, her choice" considering that choosing to stay could kill her and leaving is a phone call away. Please, no advice along those lines. We are not going to be okay with that choice.
Both families have large enough houses for them to come and isolate for the recommended 2 weeks, we've offered to pick them up, to get them a car, whatever...they are saying that life now is scary but talking about leaving is causing them anxiety so they shut down the conversation.
In the past 3 or 4 weeks, I have twice suggested leaving; my 2 other kids have also spoken to her once about this. One of my kids left his big city to come to Vermont. We are all scared for them and it is obviously causing us a lot of anxiety. We're an emotionally honest family and pretty close and we are getting increasingly upset that she's really not hearing us and sort of doubling down on staying.
I am desperate for advice about what could possibly convince her. I do know that the rest of the family is not okay with "her life, her choice" considering that choosing to stay could kill her and leaving is a phone call away. Please, no advice along those lines. We are not going to be okay with that choice.
The only thing that would make this pandemic worse is having to spend it in the same house as my parents.
Don't pick a scab.
posted by phunniemee at 2:28 PM on March 27, 2020 [217 favorites]
Don't pick a scab.
posted by phunniemee at 2:28 PM on March 27, 2020 [217 favorites]
I don’t think you should try to get them to leave. But if you are dead set on it then yes, you need to understand why they’re staying. Ask them if you can plan a time to talk about it when they can be emotionally prepared to have that conversation, or if they would rather email about it, if having the discussion impromptu by phone is causing them too much anxiety.
If they say no to continuing the conversation under different circumstances , then let them know the offer will always be open, and back off. They’re adults who can make their own decisions and if they’re not reacting well to what you’re doing now, continuing to do it isn’t likely to make them more likely to want to come be in closer quarters indefinitely.
posted by Stacey at 2:31 PM on March 27, 2020 [14 favorites]
If they say no to continuing the conversation under different circumstances , then let them know the offer will always be open, and back off. They’re adults who can make their own decisions and if they’re not reacting well to what you’re doing now, continuing to do it isn’t likely to make them more likely to want to come be in closer quarters indefinitely.
posted by Stacey at 2:31 PM on March 27, 2020 [14 favorites]
I’m very sorry and I understand how scared you must be for your daughter but she is a grown up and I don’t think there is anything you can do to “convince” her. Keep telling her she is always welcome but ultimately it’s her choice. She may even have reasons for why she doesn’t want to live with you, that she is not comfortable telling you.
As long as she is taking precautions where she is in New York, I think you have to work on managing your own feelings and actions, not hers.
Sorry I know it’s hard to let your kids grow up.
posted by like_neon at 2:34 PM on March 27, 2020 [74 favorites]
As long as she is taking precautions where she is in New York, I think you have to work on managing your own feelings and actions, not hers.
Sorry I know it’s hard to let your kids grow up.
posted by like_neon at 2:34 PM on March 27, 2020 [74 favorites]
Is it possible that she is worried about bringing CV-19 to your house? Trying to quarantine in an enclosed space isn't guaranteed, so I would be worried about that if I were thinking of traveling to stay with older family. If so, could they do a self-quarantine before the pick-up and after?
posted by past unusual at 2:34 PM on March 27, 2020 [39 favorites]
posted by past unusual at 2:34 PM on March 27, 2020 [39 favorites]
I am in NYC and am cringing every time someone leaves, to be honest. I am very afraid that people I know who have chosen to leave are now in the process of exposing their faraway family members plus everyone at gas stations, rest stops, etc to the virus, even if they are not personally experiencing symptoms. If your daughter and her boyfriend come to you they are just going to risk spreading the virus.
If you really want them to change their minds anyway, I agree with the above responders that you would have better luck if you could figure out why exactly they don't want to leave. I'm so sorry, I know this is a really rough time. I wish I personally could do more to comfort my parents but there is no way I would go stay with them at this point.
posted by ferret branca at 2:42 PM on March 27, 2020 [146 favorites]
If you really want them to change their minds anyway, I agree with the above responders that you would have better luck if you could figure out why exactly they don't want to leave. I'm so sorry, I know this is a really rough time. I wish I personally could do more to comfort my parents but there is no way I would go stay with them at this point.
posted by ferret branca at 2:42 PM on March 27, 2020 [146 favorites]
It's more of a choice between choosing to stay (which could, as you say, kill her) and leaving (which could kill her and you). By leaving, she's increasing the risk of infection to more people, including all of her loved ones. Staying put is the responsible option, even if it's the one you don't like.
posted by scruss at 2:42 PM on March 27, 2020 [104 favorites]
posted by scruss at 2:42 PM on March 27, 2020 [104 favorites]
As a whole, it's better if people in NYC stay in NYC. While that might not help the understandable anxiety of the situation. The rich NYC folks that have been fleeing to their vacation homes are spreading the virus out of the city. Everyone should stay in place.
posted by Sreiny at 2:42 PM on March 27, 2020 [53 favorites]
posted by Sreiny at 2:42 PM on March 27, 2020 [53 favorites]
Response by poster: The only thing that would make this pandemic worse is having to spend it in the same house as my parents.
I know that so many of us here have this type of shitty relationship with our parents, as do I, but according to her siblings who have asked, this is not the issue. They say she just sort of freezes and starts crying and says she has no reason to stay and she and the BF are thinking about it and she doesn't want to talk about it and shuts them down.
As to fears of spreading it to me or the BF's family, we both have houses large enough where this would not be difficult to quarantine for a few weeks.
And again, REALLY not looking for "you're going to have to be okay with this" advice or reminders that she's an adult. I know that she's an adult and that ultimately we will all have to live with this.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:43 PM on March 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
I know that so many of us here have this type of shitty relationship with our parents, as do I, but according to her siblings who have asked, this is not the issue. They say she just sort of freezes and starts crying and says she has no reason to stay and she and the BF are thinking about it and she doesn't want to talk about it and shuts them down.
As to fears of spreading it to me or the BF's family, we both have houses large enough where this would not be difficult to quarantine for a few weeks.
And again, REALLY not looking for "you're going to have to be okay with this" advice or reminders that she's an adult. I know that she's an adult and that ultimately we will all have to live with this.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:43 PM on March 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
But here's the thing: you have to be okay with that choice. It's HER choice. I wanted my son to move back in with us for the duration but he doesn't want to and I have to be okay with that. He's an adult and I have to trust that I raised him with enough sense to know how to follow the CDC recommendations and take precautions and isolate as much as he is able to. I know you're worried sick. We all are. And her not being there with you means that you can't make sure she's okay. I get it. But it sounds like she's being sensible and taking the proper precautions, and again, she's an adult. You have to let her make her own decisions about her life.
I'm pretty sure she's hearing you. Y'all aren't hearing her.
posted by cooker girl at 2:43 PM on March 27, 2020 [74 favorites]
I'm pretty sure she's hearing you. Y'all aren't hearing her.
posted by cooker girl at 2:43 PM on March 27, 2020 [74 favorites]
From the mom side, I'm sympathetic to you. My thought is that it likely seems like a big loss for a 20 something couple to go from a unit of their own back to the position of kids in a family home. Twenties is still too close to childhood to make that boundary seem indestructible. In fact being an adult child in an emotionally honest family of origin can be exhausting in your twenties if your main emotional focus is trying to be on your adult life and partner. Maybe your best bet would be to stress that they would be totally autonomous in the house, they would be respected as an adult couple, give them what would be a little "apartment" of their own, stress that they wouldn't have to interact with you guys except on their own terms once quarantine is over etc. When I was that age, this would have been the issue for me. They don't want to feel they're going backwards, that has its own anxieties even though they feel anxious about the virus in NYC.
posted by nantucket at 2:43 PM on March 27, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by nantucket at 2:43 PM on March 27, 2020 [17 favorites]
I have family in a small rural touristy area that has been inundated with people coming to get away from the city. It's off-season, however, so this means that stores weren't prepared and new arrivals are taking up supplies that other folks need, as well as coming from areas with higher incidence of covid-19 and lots of cmunity transmission yet not self-isolation for two weeks on arrival. This is not quite the situation with your family, but your daughter may be aware of these sorts of issues and trying to do the socially responsible thing, as well as trying to not contribute to the spread in smaller rural areas that are not yet hard hit. Or there may be personal family dynamics at play. Or she and her boyfriend may have friends in NYC who they are worried about and want to be in a position to support if necessary. Or, or, or.
I know it's anxiety inducing for you. All of my family are in higher risk areas (and on the other side of a now mostly closed national border) than me, and I am worried for them too and wish I could protect them better. Not traveling is the socially responsible thing to do right now, unfortunately. Check in daily and let each other know that you love each other regularly.
posted by eviemath at 2:45 PM on March 27, 2020 [27 favorites]
I know it's anxiety inducing for you. All of my family are in higher risk areas (and on the other side of a now mostly closed national border) than me, and I am worried for them too and wish I could protect them better. Not traveling is the socially responsible thing to do right now, unfortunately. Check in daily and let each other know that you love each other regularly.
posted by eviemath at 2:45 PM on March 27, 2020 [27 favorites]
Based on your update, maybe y'all need to back off a bit. It's causing her additional anxiety. Maybe she is afraid that they'll bring the virus with them to wherever they go. Maybe they worry that they'll lose their apartment.
You and the BF's parents have offered them a place to go if they want to leave. Continuing to talk about it is making her anxious. Let her and the BF come to their own decision.
posted by cooker girl at 2:46 PM on March 27, 2020 [55 favorites]
You and the BF's parents have offered them a place to go if they want to leave. Continuing to talk about it is making her anxious. Let her and the BF come to their own decision.
posted by cooker girl at 2:46 PM on March 27, 2020 [55 favorites]
I do know that the rest of the family is not okay with "her life, her choice"
Why would you want to move back in with or even listen to the advice of people who don't respect your decisions?
posted by mhoye at 2:57 PM on March 27, 2020 [133 favorites]
Why would you want to move back in with or even listen to the advice of people who don't respect your decisions?
posted by mhoye at 2:57 PM on March 27, 2020 [133 favorites]
Cities are hotspots for COVID-19. I don't know what advice you're getting, but in Montreal they're telling us firmly not to leave the city for the regions right now. Your daughter and her bf are doing the right thing.
Incidentally, are there any pets involved?
posted by zadcat at 2:58 PM on March 27, 2020 [19 favorites]
Incidentally, are there any pets involved?
posted by zadcat at 2:58 PM on March 27, 2020 [19 favorites]
You know all those people who have died of COVID-19 in Italy? You know how many of them were under 30? Zero. Yes, it's possible she could get COVID-19 and die. It's also possible that she could die in a car accident on her way to Vermont. She and her boyfriend are really not taking that huge a risk. Her and her BF coming up there may not be a huge risk for you and your neighbors either, but it's probably more risky to more people than it would be for them to stay. I'm sorry I'm piling on with more of what you don't want to hear, but since you may not be able to get her to change her mind, it's probably good for you to have a realistic sense of how much danger she's in.
posted by Redstart at 3:13 PM on March 27, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 3:13 PM on March 27, 2020 [14 favorites]
This is about your anxiety and how you are managing it, not about her. I am so sorry. You won't feel safe until your chicks are all back in the nest or the pandemic is over and you will feel much better if you focus on that anxiety as your immediate problem instead of on your daughter as the solution to the anxiety.
Take a few hours and work on reducing your own anxiety instead of trying to figure out how to get her home. Until she does come home or everything is over, you are going to need some strategies to handle your own feelings. Throwing yourself at this problem is not working, so back off for the rest of the day and work on things that could reduce your anxiety, like getting held tightly by other family members, crying uncontrollably, hot showers, comedy movies or running three miles on a treadmill.
There is a not small chance that she will want to head up to you, as soon as she has reason to believe she will not carry it with her. She may be waiting on the results of a Covid19 test, or know that she can't leave until she figures out what she needs to do first - like fill her local prescriptions such as puffers that she won't be able to get up in Vermont, but is too upset to figure out what those things are. You don't want her to set out without her credit and debit cards or without her house keys which have been accidentally locked into the apartment, and with only a quarter of a tank of gas.
Conversations that tip her into crying and saying, "I don't know," sound like they are flooding her. She won't move until she feels less overwhelmed. That means that you can try getting in touch with her and giving her support in a way that does not put any pressure on her. Start by helping her calm down, or just by giving her the space to calm down in if there is a chance that your own worries are making more upset than she already would be.
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:14 PM on March 27, 2020 [57 favorites]
Take a few hours and work on reducing your own anxiety instead of trying to figure out how to get her home. Until she does come home or everything is over, you are going to need some strategies to handle your own feelings. Throwing yourself at this problem is not working, so back off for the rest of the day and work on things that could reduce your anxiety, like getting held tightly by other family members, crying uncontrollably, hot showers, comedy movies or running three miles on a treadmill.
There is a not small chance that she will want to head up to you, as soon as she has reason to believe she will not carry it with her. She may be waiting on the results of a Covid19 test, or know that she can't leave until she figures out what she needs to do first - like fill her local prescriptions such as puffers that she won't be able to get up in Vermont, but is too upset to figure out what those things are. You don't want her to set out without her credit and debit cards or without her house keys which have been accidentally locked into the apartment, and with only a quarter of a tank of gas.
Conversations that tip her into crying and saying, "I don't know," sound like they are flooding her. She won't move until she feels less overwhelmed. That means that you can try getting in touch with her and giving her support in a way that does not put any pressure on her. Start by helping her calm down, or just by giving her the space to calm down in if there is a chance that your own worries are making more upset than she already would be.
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:14 PM on March 27, 2020 [57 favorites]
The virus is extraordinarily contagious. If they are carriers, they are still putting you all at signficant risk by staying in it with you. They are also putting the general public at risk--no one can completely avoid leaving. We need food. We need to check our mail sometimes.
She's terrified and trying to figure out her next steps. Give her time. She'll come around if she's ready. The more you push, the longer that will take.
posted by Amy93 at 3:23 PM on March 27, 2020 [15 favorites]
She's terrified and trying to figure out her next steps. Give her time. She'll come around if she's ready. The more you push, the longer that will take.
posted by Amy93 at 3:23 PM on March 27, 2020 [15 favorites]
We are not going to be okay with that choice.
I am desperate for advice about what could possibly convince her.
Sit with your feelings when you feel desperate. Desperation doesn't mean that you have to react or control. Acknowledge and then don't forget to notice what is real -- that your daughter and her boyfriend are fine.
You may want to flip your desperate feelings to trusting. Trust that she is okay now and is going to be okay. Surrender to what is. You cannot control outcomes whether she is under your roof or elsewhere. Notice and acknowledge reality. Reality is nobody in your family is ill. Keep acknowledging what is actually happening versus your anxious thoughts that aren't real. Moment by moment, day by day.
Panicking abut something that hasn't happened is insanity. She is going to be fine and you can be calm if you wish -- you only have to acknowledge what is.
posted by loveandhappiness at 3:23 PM on March 27, 2020 [15 favorites]
I am desperate for advice about what could possibly convince her.
Sit with your feelings when you feel desperate. Desperation doesn't mean that you have to react or control. Acknowledge and then don't forget to notice what is real -- that your daughter and her boyfriend are fine.
You may want to flip your desperate feelings to trusting. Trust that she is okay now and is going to be okay. Surrender to what is. You cannot control outcomes whether she is under your roof or elsewhere. Notice and acknowledge reality. Reality is nobody in your family is ill. Keep acknowledging what is actually happening versus your anxious thoughts that aren't real. Moment by moment, day by day.
Panicking abut something that hasn't happened is insanity. She is going to be fine and you can be calm if you wish -- you only have to acknowledge what is.
posted by loveandhappiness at 3:23 PM on March 27, 2020 [15 favorites]
Yes the numbers of people infected are high in NYC. But let’s be honest, if the ratios of infected people get that high in Vermont and she gets very sick, she probably has a better chance of getting a ventilator and an icu bed in New York. Some people are fleeing the large cities, but rural areas have even less healthcare capacity than urban ones.
I’m sorry. You can’t make her make the decision you want her to make. The decision you want her to make won’t protect her. It’s natural to want to protect the people you love but when it comes to something as overwhelming as this there’s just... just limits. You don’t have to be okay with this but you can try not to make it worse.
posted by Hypatia at 3:25 PM on March 27, 2020 [24 favorites]
I’m sorry. You can’t make her make the decision you want her to make. The decision you want her to make won’t protect her. It’s natural to want to protect the people you love but when it comes to something as overwhelming as this there’s just... just limits. You don’t have to be okay with this but you can try not to make it worse.
posted by Hypatia at 3:25 PM on March 27, 2020 [24 favorites]
It's stressful to go stay at someone else's home for months on end. If they want to keep their apartment this would be a tiring process of having to figure out everything they would possibly need or want from their apartment for months. If they want to sublet it that's another big task. And it's just...not your own space.
And would both of them have what they need to effectively work from home for months from your place? Think of not just physical materials like desks and chairs and external monitors but also intangibles like quiet and privacy.
posted by unannihilated at 3:27 PM on March 27, 2020 [14 favorites]
And would both of them have what they need to effectively work from home for months from your place? Think of not just physical materials like desks and chairs and external monitors but also intangibles like quiet and privacy.
posted by unannihilated at 3:27 PM on March 27, 2020 [14 favorites]
I am approximately in your daughter's situation (I am early 30s and single), though my mom is no longer trying to get me to come to Vermont. I almost went and decided against it because it, frankly, seemed easier and less scary to stay at home than to upend my life and go to Vermont for an indefinite period of time. I'm not going to be able to outrun the coronavirus by going to Vermont, my mom's partner is in a higher risk group, two of the three medications I take are controlled substances that I wouldn't be able to get in Vermont without finding a doctor (which are oh so plentiful in rural areas) and, let's face it, Vermont is probably less equipped for this than NYC, so while if I were to get sick immediately Vermont might be a better bet, but not over the long haul.
I'm not going to pretend I'm not anxious and haven't thought about asking my mom to come rescue me, but I do think I'm happier staying put and at least equally safe.
posted by hoyland at 3:30 PM on March 27, 2020 [24 favorites]
I'm not going to pretend I'm not anxious and haven't thought about asking my mom to come rescue me, but I do think I'm happier staying put and at least equally safe.
posted by hoyland at 3:30 PM on March 27, 2020 [24 favorites]
I don't think there's getting around the fact that leaving NYC at this point is (pardon the pun) ill-advised. Having a parent come pick them up, risks the life of the parent. Taking a ride share/ renting a car also has its own set of issues. If she's active on social media/ watching the news at all then your daughter is acutely aware of the implications of spreading the virus outside of NYC. So by continuing to pressure her to leave NYC, you are effectively pressuring her to jeopardize the lives of strangers and other family members. So from her perspective... by staying put she is protecting you, and this pressure to leave NYC could be more stressful than the actual epidemic. So instead, I suggest you drop the matter at this time. Video chat regularly. Offer to send her food / other supplies from home.
posted by oceano at 3:31 PM on March 27, 2020 [35 favorites]
posted by oceano at 3:31 PM on March 27, 2020 [35 favorites]
You have to declaw your pleas here so it’s not such a fraught conversation, or an argument to win. I know it’s beyond hard to tone things down at the moment— but I bet you’ll get results if you do.
If you’re conveying high anxiety, a NYC=death message, and making it about her not hearing you or communicating honestly, it’s not going to be a collaborative effort to keep everyone safe. It’s going to be added stress when everyone’s maxed out.
My own mother is driving me insane about this very thing, and I’m this close to taking a break from communicating with her for a couple of days to destress.
I don’t agree it’s imperative she come to Vermont, and there are many good reasons to stay in NYC, crazy as that may seem based on the news. Maybe if you at least pretend you see pros and cons, your side will emerge as the better choice in her mind.
What might work on me is trust. Trust that I am constantly weighing the risks and benefits and that I will make the correct decision. Trust that I have a place to go and parents to discuss things with as adults. Good luck and my best to you and yours!
posted by kapers at 3:33 PM on March 27, 2020 [12 favorites]
If you’re conveying high anxiety, a NYC=death message, and making it about her not hearing you or communicating honestly, it’s not going to be a collaborative effort to keep everyone safe. It’s going to be added stress when everyone’s maxed out.
My own mother is driving me insane about this very thing, and I’m this close to taking a break from communicating with her for a couple of days to destress.
I don’t agree it’s imperative she come to Vermont, and there are many good reasons to stay in NYC, crazy as that may seem based on the news. Maybe if you at least pretend you see pros and cons, your side will emerge as the better choice in her mind.
What might work on me is trust. Trust that I am constantly weighing the risks and benefits and that I will make the correct decision. Trust that I have a place to go and parents to discuss things with as adults. Good luck and my best to you and yours!
posted by kapers at 3:33 PM on March 27, 2020 [12 favorites]
I'd just talk to her every day. Share the fun you're having, or the things you miss about being together. Play online Scrabble or however you can connect with her where she is.
Dangle the carrot, don't hit her with the stick. Strengthen your relationship. If you de-escalate, she may feel ready to back down. If she doesn't, she doesn't. Either way, you end up with wonderful memories.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:36 PM on March 27, 2020 [12 favorites]
Dangle the carrot, don't hit her with the stick. Strengthen your relationship. If you de-escalate, she may feel ready to back down. If she doesn't, she doesn't. Either way, you end up with wonderful memories.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:36 PM on March 27, 2020 [12 favorites]
Also, I suppose this is more for my mom than you, but in case it helps: NYC is my home. My parents’ house is my parents’ house. When they say “come home,” meaning their house, it’s like they don’t see my life as valid or separate from theirs.
posted by kapers at 3:37 PM on March 27, 2020 [89 favorites]
posted by kapers at 3:37 PM on March 27, 2020 [89 favorites]
In short — adults cannot make other adults do anything they don’t want to do. Your daughter does not want to do this. You need to understand why she doesn’t want to if you have any chance of helping her want to leave. If may be because she just doesn’t have the mental energy left to think about the logistics of moving. It could be because she doesn’t want to live with other people period. There are a million reasons. You need to understand those reasons, not dismiss them, and help her work through them to the point where SHE want to do this. Otherwise she really is an adult and is responsible for her own choices, full stop.
You can try to get your way and bully her or guilt trip her or whatever, and you may even be successful, but you have to weigh the damage and resentment that will have on your relationship going forward.
I know it’s really, really hard. We’re all going through some really really hard stuff at the moment. This whole thing just sucks.
posted by cgg at 3:37 PM on March 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
You can try to get your way and bully her or guilt trip her or whatever, and you may even be successful, but you have to weigh the damage and resentment that will have on your relationship going forward.
I know it’s really, really hard. We’re all going through some really really hard stuff at the moment. This whole thing just sucks.
posted by cgg at 3:37 PM on March 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
It would be helpful to know, why do you want her to leave?
posted by Winnie the Proust at 3:37 PM on March 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 3:37 PM on March 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'm also not convinced that this is a good idea either for your own safety (or your neighbors, etc) or hers, depending on what may happen if the healthcare system in your own area is overwhelmed. But in answer to your question- I don't think more pressure/arguments will help. You've made the offer. It would be kind to reduce the stress she's already feeling by communicating that you understand it's her decision and you trust her.
posted by pinochiette at 3:42 PM on March 27, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by pinochiette at 3:42 PM on March 27, 2020 [7 favorites]
In New York, What You Need to Know includes that 100% of the workforce must stay home, excluding essential services, and all non-essential gatherings of individuals of any size for any reason are temporarily banned. The definition of "essential" is strict.
In addition, "individuals should limit outdoor recreational activities to non-contact and avoid activities where they come in close contact with other people" and there is a way to report non-essential gatherings.
I am not sure why your daughter is saying that she has 'no reason' to stay when the directives are this clear, but it seems like you are putting her in an impossible position when you continue to try to convince her to disregard the urgent public health orders that are intended to keep her, you, and everyone else as safe as possible during this unprecedented crisis. I think the answer to how to convince her is for you to stop pressuring her to break the public health orders, and to instead affirm that you are available if she needs you, and that you support her regardless of the decision she makes.
posted by katra at 3:44 PM on March 27, 2020 [33 favorites]
In addition, "individuals should limit outdoor recreational activities to non-contact and avoid activities where they come in close contact with other people" and there is a way to report non-essential gatherings.
I am not sure why your daughter is saying that she has 'no reason' to stay when the directives are this clear, but it seems like you are putting her in an impossible position when you continue to try to convince her to disregard the urgent public health orders that are intended to keep her, you, and everyone else as safe as possible during this unprecedented crisis. I think the answer to how to convince her is for you to stop pressuring her to break the public health orders, and to instead affirm that you are available if she needs you, and that you support her regardless of the decision she makes.
posted by katra at 3:44 PM on March 27, 2020 [33 favorites]
Please stay calm and remember that "choosing to stay could kill her" is a very, very unlikely outcome. The media has been sharing stories of young people dying from the virus to show that we all must take it seriously, but these are extraordinarily rare cases.
You know what isn't extraordinarily rare? Being an asymptomatic carrier. One paper suggests that as many as 60% of people with coronavirus may not know it.
As someone in your daughter's demographic, we're all much more worried about our parents catching the virus than we are, no matter where they live. I would be doing the same as her.
posted by noxperpetua at 4:01 PM on March 27, 2020 [28 favorites]
You know what isn't extraordinarily rare? Being an asymptomatic carrier. One paper suggests that as many as 60% of people with coronavirus may not know it.
As someone in your daughter's demographic, we're all much more worried about our parents catching the virus than we are, no matter where they live. I would be doing the same as her.
posted by noxperpetua at 4:01 PM on March 27, 2020 [28 favorites]
I'm quite surprised by all of the answers which are okay with your plan of trying to convince her to leave NYC. They don't fall into high risk groups if they get sick but it's much riskier for the community for them to leave and potentially infect people. I would suggest keeping in regular contact over the phone/via video link and, if needed, assisting with any of the logistics of making it possible for her to shelter in place.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:05 PM on March 27, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:05 PM on March 27, 2020 [7 favorites]
As to fears of spreading it to me or the BF's family, we both have houses large enough where this would not be difficult to quarantine for a few weeks.
No, this is not how it works. Normal human behavior means that it is very difficult to not act like an ordinary human being and occasionally stand closer than 6 feet to a human who you produced with your own freakin body at a time of immense stress. I live in upstate New York and they're saying that over 60% of positive cases up here have been caused by NYC dwellers who have fled the city. Do not let your daughter contribute to the spread in a new environment. Let her hunker down in the city and quarantine for two weeks there before she comes to see you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:07 PM on March 27, 2020 [47 favorites]
No, this is not how it works. Normal human behavior means that it is very difficult to not act like an ordinary human being and occasionally stand closer than 6 feet to a human who you produced with your own freakin body at a time of immense stress. I live in upstate New York and they're saying that over 60% of positive cases up here have been caused by NYC dwellers who have fled the city. Do not let your daughter contribute to the spread in a new environment. Let her hunker down in the city and quarantine for two weeks there before she comes to see you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:07 PM on March 27, 2020 [47 favorites]
Just to add something a little different.... I am around your daughter's age and going home to my parent's tomorrow, who live in a different city than me. When we first talked about it, we each acknowledged that this was a challenging decision that had its pros and cons. My parents told me where they stood (come home). I told them where I stood (afraid to get them sick). We agreed to think about it for a couple of weeks, then talk about it again.
What has largely informed my decision to go is my own mental health; I am single, I live alone, and I am newly unemployed. I also had to abruptly stop school because of this virus (my internship got cancelled) so I am quite literally spending all of my time by myself. There are also less cases here (though there are likely significantly more than the numbers show), so I think it's better to go now before it gets a lot worse. They did not bring it up in the 2 weeks that we thought about it, though they were happy when I told them.
NYC is in a very dark and scary place right now. I can only imagine how absolutely terrible she would feel if she gave it to one of her parents and they became severely ill or worse. That is my number one fear right now. The guilt would eat her alive the rest of her life. If I lived there, especially if I didn't live alone, I don't think I'd go home to my parents in order to protect them.
If you really want her home, though, remind her that you love her and she is always welcome. And then just.... listen. If she has anxiety, reassure her. If she needs to cry, let her. This is unprecedented and it will take him.
Good luck and be safe.
posted by Amy93 at 4:11 PM on March 27, 2020 [5 favorites]
What has largely informed my decision to go is my own mental health; I am single, I live alone, and I am newly unemployed. I also had to abruptly stop school because of this virus (my internship got cancelled) so I am quite literally spending all of my time by myself. There are also less cases here (though there are likely significantly more than the numbers show), so I think it's better to go now before it gets a lot worse. They did not bring it up in the 2 weeks that we thought about it, though they were happy when I told them.
NYC is in a very dark and scary place right now. I can only imagine how absolutely terrible she would feel if she gave it to one of her parents and they became severely ill or worse. That is my number one fear right now. The guilt would eat her alive the rest of her life. If I lived there, especially if I didn't live alone, I don't think I'd go home to my parents in order to protect them.
If you really want her home, though, remind her that you love her and she is always welcome. And then just.... listen. If she has anxiety, reassure her. If she needs to cry, let her. This is unprecedented and it will take him.
Good luck and be safe.
posted by Amy93 at 4:11 PM on March 27, 2020 [5 favorites]
I live in NYC as do my parents. I’m mid 30s. They have suggested we all move to some rural area away from this. None of my objection is living with them, we are very close and live next door anyway. It’s that as much as part of me has also wanted to escape, this is my community. I want to be here fighting this fight with my city. I think people who haven’t lived here have a hard time understanding how a huge metropolis can feel like a community. I was here during 9/11 and while I can’t explain in a short comment how fundamentally devastating it was to be blocks away as it happened, what sticks with me is the sense of silent communion New Yorkers had with each other for months afterward. This hasn’t felt exactly like that, but similarly I feel connected to the city as a whole now and to individuals as we pass each other on the street or sit across from each other on the subway feeling the same things. And after 9/11 when people from far away states (besides DC) said “we are all New Yorkers now” I internally raged at them, not because I begrudged them their grief and trauma, but because they could not claim ours. And not only could they not claim our unity, they could not imagine it on an experiential level. One of the things I have most struggled with as this pandemic has unfolded is feeling invalidated by the people who are not taking it seriously or who are, but who are still experiencing it on a more theoretical level. I am also a healthcare worker and an “essential” employee so I suppose your daughter’s experience is different from mine in some ways. I know leaving this city now and being surrounded by people who have not experienced what we’ve already experienced would shred my sanity. I know staying and walking in the park while others walk 6 ft or more around me and we make brief but meaningful eye contact as we give each other wide berth will help me process this trauma. This is all so surreal that I need to see my emotional experience reflected around me to stay grounded.
I also told my parents if we move to a rural area we will still probably get COVID and our healthcare options will be far worse. They agreed.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 4:28 PM on March 27, 2020 [40 favorites]
I also told my parents if we move to a rural area we will still probably get COVID and our healthcare options will be far worse. They agreed.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 4:28 PM on March 27, 2020 [40 favorites]
I live in NYC and my mom and sister were originally calling and texting every day to come get me. I am alone in a studio, can get my groceries delivered, the bodega on my corner will never close, and I have strong internet which is essential to my job, which I am lucky enough to be able to do from home. All my clothes and books and cords and art stuff is here. I really don't have to leave my apartment at all.
If I had packed up and went to PA a week or two ago I would be sleeping in a weird bed (possibly sharing a room with my niece). I would have potentially unreliable internet and/or non-ideal work conditions during a really high-pressure time at my job (like background noise and constant interruptions). I would probably have a random assortment of clothes hastily packed and no idea when I would be able to go back to my apartment again. Food would probably be rotting in my fridge and my plants would be dying.
If I went back to stay with my mom and sister, I would be so stressed about bringing the virus with me and potentially infecting my family. I would miss my apartment and my things and be stressed about what is happening at home. I'm already worried about my job and my city. I'm worried about the people in my family that may not survive this and I don't want to contribute to that.
We all need to be in our most secure spaces right now. I know you want hers to be with you, but it sounds like it is in NYC. No one needs more pressure to do the "right" thing right now, above and beyond staying home, washing our hands, and doing everything we can to shut this down. There's tons of ways to stay connected and check in digitally right now, do that instead of making her feel like she is doing the wrong thing. There is too much to stress about right now to make this a fight.
posted by elvissa at 4:31 PM on March 27, 2020 [77 favorites]
If I had packed up and went to PA a week or two ago I would be sleeping in a weird bed (possibly sharing a room with my niece). I would have potentially unreliable internet and/or non-ideal work conditions during a really high-pressure time at my job (like background noise and constant interruptions). I would probably have a random assortment of clothes hastily packed and no idea when I would be able to go back to my apartment again. Food would probably be rotting in my fridge and my plants would be dying.
If I went back to stay with my mom and sister, I would be so stressed about bringing the virus with me and potentially infecting my family. I would miss my apartment and my things and be stressed about what is happening at home. I'm already worried about my job and my city. I'm worried about the people in my family that may not survive this and I don't want to contribute to that.
We all need to be in our most secure spaces right now. I know you want hers to be with you, but it sounds like it is in NYC. No one needs more pressure to do the "right" thing right now, above and beyond staying home, washing our hands, and doing everything we can to shut this down. There's tons of ways to stay connected and check in digitally right now, do that instead of making her feel like she is doing the wrong thing. There is too much to stress about right now to make this a fight.
posted by elvissa at 4:31 PM on March 27, 2020 [77 favorites]
Oh and the idea of leaving New York with my family still somehow feels like leaving my family, if that makes any sense.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 4:38 PM on March 27, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 4:38 PM on March 27, 2020 [3 favorites]
It sounds like she's paralyzed with anxiety, and it sounds like you pressuring her may be adding to her anxiety, rather than helping calm her. It's hard to think clearly when you're flooded with anxiety. I think your approach should be about helping soothe her. When she's feeling less anxious, maybe she can come around to agreeing with you (maybe not, though).
When I'm anxious it helps if people I trust assure me that it's going to be ok, that I'm loved and respected for who I am. Kind of like Mr Rogers used to do. What helps you calm yourself down when you're anxious?
posted by jasper411 at 4:39 PM on March 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
When I'm anxious it helps if people I trust assure me that it's going to be ok, that I'm loved and respected for who I am. Kind of like Mr Rogers used to do. What helps you calm yourself down when you're anxious?
posted by jasper411 at 4:39 PM on March 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
“Shelter in place” means shelter in place. Your daughter is right. You are wrong. You’re asking her to endanger herself, you and countless others. Please stop.
posted by caek at 4:43 PM on March 27, 2020 [109 favorites]
posted by caek at 4:43 PM on March 27, 2020 [109 favorites]
This is about your anxiety and how you are managing it, not about her.
This. What you want her to do is objectively the worst thing she can do for her own and your and the general public’s safety. She is hearing you all, she knows you’re all upset and want her to do things she is not able to do at the moment. But you all are refusing to hear her. She is making a mature and objectively sound decision by staying put. In your anxiety you are pushing for the highest risk choice which increases the chances of accidents, infection and overwhelmed local healthcare that can no longer keep up with demand.
When I was told to work remotely two weeks ago my auntie, who is like my mother to me, wanted me to come and stay with them. But quite apart from the fact that that defeats the purpose of social distancing, my aunt lives in the UK and I live in Switzerland. The public response in the UK was much slower and much more confused than here, the NHS has suffered a decade of underfunding and supply chains are not keeping up with demand. They don’t need me to turn up and stretch resources even more. And I do have an actual office set up at home so I can work from home for months if I have to. At their house I’d be in the conservatory with my laptop on my lap in unergonomic position and nowhere to have a call or Skype meeting. So staying put is the only thing that makes sense, even if it doesn’t give any of us a warm and fuzzy feeling. And fortunately for our relationship my aunt has respected that. And in the last two weeks she has also learned how serious this really is and started to self isolate because her and my uncle are vulnerable.
posted by koahiatamadl at 4:51 PM on March 27, 2020 [12 favorites]
This. What you want her to do is objectively the worst thing she can do for her own and your and the general public’s safety. She is hearing you all, she knows you’re all upset and want her to do things she is not able to do at the moment. But you all are refusing to hear her. She is making a mature and objectively sound decision by staying put. In your anxiety you are pushing for the highest risk choice which increases the chances of accidents, infection and overwhelmed local healthcare that can no longer keep up with demand.
When I was told to work remotely two weeks ago my auntie, who is like my mother to me, wanted me to come and stay with them. But quite apart from the fact that that defeats the purpose of social distancing, my aunt lives in the UK and I live in Switzerland. The public response in the UK was much slower and much more confused than here, the NHS has suffered a decade of underfunding and supply chains are not keeping up with demand. They don’t need me to turn up and stretch resources even more. And I do have an actual office set up at home so I can work from home for months if I have to. At their house I’d be in the conservatory with my laptop on my lap in unergonomic position and nowhere to have a call or Skype meeting. So staying put is the only thing that makes sense, even if it doesn’t give any of us a warm and fuzzy feeling. And fortunately for our relationship my aunt has respected that. And in the last two weeks she has also learned how serious this really is and started to self isolate because her and my uncle are vulnerable.
posted by koahiatamadl at 4:51 PM on March 27, 2020 [12 favorites]
Like everyone else says, the time for leaving has almost certainly been and gone.
I'm in a different position because my whole country is locked down but the thing to do is stay where you are and connect remotely. Manage your own anxiety without demanding from her, support her as best you can from a distance, and stop encouraging her to come to your house. In New York, as in Spain, Italy, the UK, France and others, everyone needs to #StayAtHome. Where she already is, is home.
posted by plonkee at 4:52 PM on March 27, 2020 [5 favorites]
I'm in a different position because my whole country is locked down but the thing to do is stay where you are and connect remotely. Manage your own anxiety without demanding from her, support her as best you can from a distance, and stop encouraging her to come to your house. In New York, as in Spain, Italy, the UK, France and others, everyone needs to #StayAtHome. Where she already is, is home.
posted by plonkee at 4:52 PM on March 27, 2020 [5 favorites]
Presumably you’re imagining that her boyfriend would go stay with his parents? Or do you think he would stay with you as well? In the latter case, he has to be away from his home (NYC) as well as his family while staying with his girlfriend’s parents. If I were him, I wouldn’t exactly be into that. Could that be the problem? Maybe she wants to go but he’s like “Uhh how about no?” and she doesn’t want to be apart from him? Or she just has no interest in moving with her boyfriend to a rural area? The dynamic between the two of them can’t be overlooked in this situation. You may be inadvertently asking her to leave her boyfriend and her entire community indefinitely during a pandemic, which could be distressing her.
posted by fso at 4:52 PM on March 27, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by fso at 4:52 PM on March 27, 2020 [8 favorites]
You're going to have to change your approach here to be a little more even-handed and accurate. Even if she's high-risk, it's flatly untrue that choosing to stay in NYC under a shelter-in-place order is any more likely to kill her than leaving the city would be. If someone were using that as their argument to get me to leave, it would be distressing (causing me to shut down similar to how it sounds like your daughter is shutting down when confronted), and I'd dismiss most of what they had to say, because they're clearly not coming from a place of reason. I also might feel like they either don't understand or don't care about the risk me leaving would pose to other people, which again, wouldn't help me be receptive to a conversation about it.
Take a step back, and understand the facts and risks of both scenarios: staying, and leaving. Then you'll be able to have a calmer and more productive conversation with your daughter, and be able to acknowledge why she might be staying and discuss the pros and cons together, which will make her much more receptive to considering leaving than an attack that sounds more like "you're crazy and stupid and don't care about your family for staying" would.
And yes, this might end up making you more OK with her staying. But it's also absolutely necessary for you to have any chance of convincing her, too. There's no other option.
posted by rhiannonstone at 4:52 PM on March 27, 2020 [9 favorites]
Take a step back, and understand the facts and risks of both scenarios: staying, and leaving. Then you'll be able to have a calmer and more productive conversation with your daughter, and be able to acknowledge why she might be staying and discuss the pros and cons together, which will make her much more receptive to considering leaving than an attack that sounds more like "you're crazy and stupid and don't care about your family for staying" would.
And yes, this might end up making you more OK with her staying. But it's also absolutely necessary for you to have any chance of convincing her, too. There's no other option.
posted by rhiannonstone at 4:52 PM on March 27, 2020 [9 favorites]
NYC is not Chernobyl, for goodness' sake, nor are you safe in Vermont. The choices are just not as clear-cut as your runaway anxiety is telling you.
I'm sure my mother would love it if I left and came back to Midwestern State. She has the common sense not to push it. If you want your daughter to come stay with you, stop being the source of extreme distress in her life that, unfortunately, by your own description you currently are. Be calm and nonjudgmental. Put the invitation on the table and leave it there. If she starts to talk about her anxieties about being in the city, listen and soothe and don't amplify.
posted by praemunire at 4:54 PM on March 27, 2020 [30 favorites]
I'm sure my mother would love it if I left and came back to Midwestern State. She has the common sense not to push it. If you want your daughter to come stay with you, stop being the source of extreme distress in her life that, unfortunately, by your own description you currently are. Be calm and nonjudgmental. Put the invitation on the table and leave it there. If she starts to talk about her anxieties about being in the city, listen and soothe and don't amplify.
posted by praemunire at 4:54 PM on March 27, 2020 [30 favorites]
I also think they're making the right decision. To answer your question, you could try:
- Speaking directly with the boyfriend
- Writing out a bullet-point email of the pros of leaving NYC (things like food security, laundry access, outdoor space, etc., and include what their work spaces will be like; emphasize their ability to self-quarantine for the first 2-3 weeks, and swear that their privacy/autonomy will be respected the entire stay -- because that's probably not the impression they have now), and send it to both parties
- Addressing any health or medication issues (as I agree that re-filling scripts out-of-state might be a concern)
- Contacting the boyfriend's family (if an underlying issue is the fear that one family will be insulted/aggrieved if the couple chooses one over the other) to form a united front
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:56 PM on March 27, 2020
- Speaking directly with the boyfriend
- Writing out a bullet-point email of the pros of leaving NYC (things like food security, laundry access, outdoor space, etc., and include what their work spaces will be like; emphasize their ability to self-quarantine for the first 2-3 weeks, and swear that their privacy/autonomy will be respected the entire stay -- because that's probably not the impression they have now), and send it to both parties
- Addressing any health or medication issues (as I agree that re-filling scripts out-of-state might be a concern)
- Contacting the boyfriend's family (if an underlying issue is the fear that one family will be insulted/aggrieved if the couple chooses one over the other) to form a united front
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:56 PM on March 27, 2020
Your daughter is making a really responsible choice here. I suspect a lot of her anxiety is coming from her family's refusal to acknowledge her autonomy. And that seems to be the source of your anxiety too. This is a really tough time, and it's not necessarily the case that her anxiety would disappear at your house anyway.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:14 PM on March 27, 2020 [25 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 5:14 PM on March 27, 2020 [25 favorites]
>And again, REALLY not looking for "you're going to have to be okay with this" advice
Yes, that is very clear; but considering that your question amounts to, "How can I make a grown adult do what I want her to do instead of what scientific advice says she should do, regardless of the fact that pressuring her to do what I want is causing her obvious anxiety?" I think you need to resign yourself to the knowledge that this is the advice you're going to get.
She is doing the safest thing. Let her know that she has a place with you if she chooses it, and then back off and let her make her own choice - the same way you would want to make your own choice, were the situation reversed.
posted by WaywardPlane at 5:19 PM on March 27, 2020 [59 favorites]
Yes, that is very clear; but considering that your question amounts to, "How can I make a grown adult do what I want her to do instead of what scientific advice says she should do, regardless of the fact that pressuring her to do what I want is causing her obvious anxiety?" I think you need to resign yourself to the knowledge that this is the advice you're going to get.
She is doing the safest thing. Let her know that she has a place with you if she chooses it, and then back off and let her make her own choice - the same way you would want to make your own choice, were the situation reversed.
posted by WaywardPlane at 5:19 PM on March 27, 2020 [59 favorites]
Hi, I'm in a very similar position to your daughter. My parents thought about me coming back to live with them- across the country!- but they realized it would expose me and them to more risk, and would yank me out of my comfortable apartment. So they didn't even seriously suggest it.
If I were her, I would be terrified of infecting you. Also, every single piece of advice from the authorities in NYC is to shelter in place- the prospect of blatantly disregarding that may not sound like a big deal to you, but she's the one living here and paying attention to the news locally.
I know, personally, I am happier here than I would be living back with my parents. Even with the coronavirus!
You offered to pick them up? To her, that's you offering to let them infect you. Sorry, but that's terrifying.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:20 PM on March 27, 2020 [11 favorites]
If I were her, I would be terrified of infecting you. Also, every single piece of advice from the authorities in NYC is to shelter in place- the prospect of blatantly disregarding that may not sound like a big deal to you, but she's the one living here and paying attention to the news locally.
I know, personally, I am happier here than I would be living back with my parents. Even with the coronavirus!
You offered to pick them up? To her, that's you offering to let them infect you. Sorry, but that's terrifying.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:20 PM on March 27, 2020 [11 favorites]
So, I'm someone who lived with a long term boyfriend in New York in my early 20's with family in the countryside, awhile back. My job often had me working from home for one reason or another, and I would certainly be in that situation here. I thought I'd do a deep dive into what my psychology would be like, in order to maybe do a little emotional labor on your daughter's behalf, and what I would afraid of about leaving.
1. That or my boyfriend I have COVID19 and are asymptomatic or so mildly symptomatic I'm not even noticing it, which seems to be a not-at-all-uncommon thing with young healthy people. I would be terrified that visiting my family would put them in a danger I am likely not in. Really imagine this one for a second -- imagine going to visit your own parents, and then getting a family member sick, and knowing you were the reason that they were in pain or even died. I would certainly stay away from my family to prevent that happening, no matter how sad or scared it made me.
2. That if my family came to pick me up, one or more of us would get sick or transmit illness to others on the trip (at a gas station, at a mcdonalds, in a public bathroom, etc.) which could once again result in danger to my family that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't left.
3. That my family members would not respect my living situation, even if they didn't mean to be cruel about it, they might do this by accident or out of habit. For example, I might think that my family would force my boyfriend and I to sleep in separate rooms or beds due to being unmarried, or that we would have to share a room with others, or that we would generally not have very much autonomy and privacy. This was a real concern for me when I was in your daughter's situation, and a constant battle whenever we would visit family. In a stressful time like this one, I would not want to put myself in a situation where I had to feel uncomfortable about kissing, cuddling, or even having sex with my partner.
(Alternately, if the situation with my partner was not perfectly rosy, I might fear being judged or embarrassed by the chilly atmosphere between us, or by having arguments with him. I might be worried that I couldn't communicate openly with my partner without him being judged by my family if we disagreed, etc. I try to keep my relationship dirty laundry away from my family's eyes, and staying with them would naturally make that harder.)
4. That I would have a loss of control over my daily life. This is an addendum to the above. Living in NYC provides a certain degree of personal freedom at all hours of the day and night, even in this situation. If you get peckish at 3 AM, you can go to the 24-hour bodega for a sandwich or a honey bun. If you get a headache, duane reade is right across the road. Even a young person without a car is able to get around and take care of themselves with a great degree of spontaneity and independence and every time I go somewhere that this is less true, I quickly grow miserable. Your daughter may be the same, not wanting to feel like a burden asking someone to get in a car every time she wants something. (And besides, every instance of that would be another instance of exposing a family member to the virus, potentially. Right now she can take care of that stuff without endangering any of you.)
5. That my work-from-home would be made more difficult than it already is by shaky internet/iffy technology, or more likely, frequent interruptions or a bad our out-of-control working environment.
6. That bad things would happen to my apartment or possessions. For example: that it would be robbed, that my plants would die, that I would be unable to find care for a pet, that a pipe would burst, that it would catch fire, that I'd miss helping out with a rent strike by the other tenants in the building, or any number of other possible issues that could crop up while staying long-term away from the place that one is renting with no one in residence. (I get nervous about this just going on brief vacations, maybe I'm just paranoid.)
7. That I would feel a loss of control over the situation in NYC. This is a weird one, but worth noting. I felt this way during Hurricane Sandy (which gives you an idea of when I lived there). Even if being in the thick of it is anxiety-producing and scary, there is also a sense that you and everyone else in the city are in it together, and you've sort of... got one hand on the wheel? It's an illusion, probably, but an adaptive one, and one I realized during that disaster that I was not comfortable letting go of.
I write all this because it sounds like your daughter is having a really hard time articulating her feelings about going vs. staying, probably due to pressure and fear and grief and all the other hard emotions that have us all in a whirlwind right now. I don't guarantee she has exactly the same concerns that I would have, but given the seeming similarities in our situations, I do think there may be some overlap.
My goal here is to help you get into her head a little more, to recognize the factors you can control and assuage, and the factors you can't. What you do with these ideas (whether you try to ameliorate them to convince her to travel, or use them to help you soothe your own anxieties instead) is up to you.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 5:37 PM on March 27, 2020 [29 favorites]
1. That or my boyfriend I have COVID19 and are asymptomatic or so mildly symptomatic I'm not even noticing it, which seems to be a not-at-all-uncommon thing with young healthy people. I would be terrified that visiting my family would put them in a danger I am likely not in. Really imagine this one for a second -- imagine going to visit your own parents, and then getting a family member sick, and knowing you were the reason that they were in pain or even died. I would certainly stay away from my family to prevent that happening, no matter how sad or scared it made me.
2. That if my family came to pick me up, one or more of us would get sick or transmit illness to others on the trip (at a gas station, at a mcdonalds, in a public bathroom, etc.) which could once again result in danger to my family that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't left.
3. That my family members would not respect my living situation, even if they didn't mean to be cruel about it, they might do this by accident or out of habit. For example, I might think that my family would force my boyfriend and I to sleep in separate rooms or beds due to being unmarried, or that we would have to share a room with others, or that we would generally not have very much autonomy and privacy. This was a real concern for me when I was in your daughter's situation, and a constant battle whenever we would visit family. In a stressful time like this one, I would not want to put myself in a situation where I had to feel uncomfortable about kissing, cuddling, or even having sex with my partner.
(Alternately, if the situation with my partner was not perfectly rosy, I might fear being judged or embarrassed by the chilly atmosphere between us, or by having arguments with him. I might be worried that I couldn't communicate openly with my partner without him being judged by my family if we disagreed, etc. I try to keep my relationship dirty laundry away from my family's eyes, and staying with them would naturally make that harder.)
4. That I would have a loss of control over my daily life. This is an addendum to the above. Living in NYC provides a certain degree of personal freedom at all hours of the day and night, even in this situation. If you get peckish at 3 AM, you can go to the 24-hour bodega for a sandwich or a honey bun. If you get a headache, duane reade is right across the road. Even a young person without a car is able to get around and take care of themselves with a great degree of spontaneity and independence and every time I go somewhere that this is less true, I quickly grow miserable. Your daughter may be the same, not wanting to feel like a burden asking someone to get in a car every time she wants something. (And besides, every instance of that would be another instance of exposing a family member to the virus, potentially. Right now she can take care of that stuff without endangering any of you.)
5. That my work-from-home would be made more difficult than it already is by shaky internet/iffy technology, or more likely, frequent interruptions or a bad our out-of-control working environment.
6. That bad things would happen to my apartment or possessions. For example: that it would be robbed, that my plants would die, that I would be unable to find care for a pet, that a pipe would burst, that it would catch fire, that I'd miss helping out with a rent strike by the other tenants in the building, or any number of other possible issues that could crop up while staying long-term away from the place that one is renting with no one in residence. (I get nervous about this just going on brief vacations, maybe I'm just paranoid.)
7. That I would feel a loss of control over the situation in NYC. This is a weird one, but worth noting. I felt this way during Hurricane Sandy (which gives you an idea of when I lived there). Even if being in the thick of it is anxiety-producing and scary, there is also a sense that you and everyone else in the city are in it together, and you've sort of... got one hand on the wheel? It's an illusion, probably, but an adaptive one, and one I realized during that disaster that I was not comfortable letting go of.
I write all this because it sounds like your daughter is having a really hard time articulating her feelings about going vs. staying, probably due to pressure and fear and grief and all the other hard emotions that have us all in a whirlwind right now. I don't guarantee she has exactly the same concerns that I would have, but given the seeming similarities in our situations, I do think there may be some overlap.
My goal here is to help you get into her head a little more, to recognize the factors you can control and assuage, and the factors you can't. What you do with these ideas (whether you try to ameliorate them to convince her to travel, or use them to help you soothe your own anxieties instead) is up to you.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 5:37 PM on March 27, 2020 [29 favorites]
You offered to pick them up? To her, that's you offering to let them infect you.
this exactly. you will have to quarantine with her when you get back to your home. a third uninfected person will have to clean out the car before anyone else can use it, potentially risking their own infection. if you stop for gas or a soda or a restroom break, that's untold people who will be infected by you both, who will go on to spread it to untold others. if your car breaks down, gets a flat, anything out of the ordinary happens, anyone who responds to assist you will be infected.
you're risking all that, putting the potential responsibility for causing all that ON HER, for so many people's lives at stake, to make yourself feel better. you just can't do that right now. it's just not fair to do that to her.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:54 PM on March 27, 2020 [33 favorites]
this exactly. you will have to quarantine with her when you get back to your home. a third uninfected person will have to clean out the car before anyone else can use it, potentially risking their own infection. if you stop for gas or a soda or a restroom break, that's untold people who will be infected by you both, who will go on to spread it to untold others. if your car breaks down, gets a flat, anything out of the ordinary happens, anyone who responds to assist you will be infected.
you're risking all that, putting the potential responsibility for causing all that ON HER, for so many people's lives at stake, to make yourself feel better. you just can't do that right now. it's just not fair to do that to her.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:54 PM on March 27, 2020 [33 favorites]
Hey I’d like to add another datapoint here. I am a firefighter and EMT in coastal North Carolina. I am sitting down eating my dinner at the table in the station at this minute because my cooking was paused to attend to a dispatch to a 25 year old with a laceration. An alpha call, so no emergency response. But...we are a community of elderly, so this isn’t passing the sniff test.
En route to the call, dispatch raises me on the radio to tell me there are two people at the location who are from NYC. We get there, waiting for the medics, and a THIRD person from NYC staying at the residence meets me at my apparatus while I’m trying to mask and glove up.
As fire primary, we aren’t supposed to be dispatched to COVID calls except in specific circumstances. So because these people traveled here and didn’t answer the 911 center’s questions correctly, they put me and my crew, whom as a company officer I am responsible for, at risk.
We have another “visitor” from Tennessee who is calling 911 every few days and evading the 911 center’s questions, but then is pissed that the hospital keeps sending her back to her rental or family house or something, because she snuck in here before short-term rentals were shut down.
Our medical system is robust for this area, and even the usual summertime swell. But like everyone else, we are going to be overwhelmed and there isn’t another major hospital until you get to Greenville or Myrtle Beach. Guess what. They got their own patients too.
Please remember that first responders and hospital systems in areas with smaller populations are going to be trying to tread water with their resident patients if they aren’t in a predicament already.
I ain’t tryin to be mean, and it’s my job to proudly serve the public, but it’s easier for us to do the best job when the system is not completely overwhelmed.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 6:54 PM on March 27, 2020 [76 favorites]
En route to the call, dispatch raises me on the radio to tell me there are two people at the location who are from NYC. We get there, waiting for the medics, and a THIRD person from NYC staying at the residence meets me at my apparatus while I’m trying to mask and glove up.
As fire primary, we aren’t supposed to be dispatched to COVID calls except in specific circumstances. So because these people traveled here and didn’t answer the 911 center’s questions correctly, they put me and my crew, whom as a company officer I am responsible for, at risk.
We have another “visitor” from Tennessee who is calling 911 every few days and evading the 911 center’s questions, but then is pissed that the hospital keeps sending her back to her rental or family house or something, because she snuck in here before short-term rentals were shut down.
Our medical system is robust for this area, and even the usual summertime swell. But like everyone else, we are going to be overwhelmed and there isn’t another major hospital until you get to Greenville or Myrtle Beach. Guess what. They got their own patients too.
Please remember that first responders and hospital systems in areas with smaller populations are going to be trying to tread water with their resident patients if they aren’t in a predicament already.
I ain’t tryin to be mean, and it’s my job to proudly serve the public, but it’s easier for us to do the best job when the system is not completely overwhelmed.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 6:54 PM on March 27, 2020 [76 favorites]
Please don't encourage your daughter to break quarantine; this is literally how the virus is spreading. It doesn't matter that she's your daughter, that you're pretty sure she's not sick, that you will be sure to isolate. Thousands of people have thought the exact same thing, and infected others, who have subsequently died.
Do the right thing, put the good of humanity above your own personal needs. Don't potentially take the life of a stranger because you are afraid.
posted by smoke at 7:05 PM on March 27, 2020 [41 favorites]
Do the right thing, put the good of humanity above your own personal needs. Don't potentially take the life of a stranger because you are afraid.
posted by smoke at 7:05 PM on March 27, 2020 [41 favorites]
You had really good input about COVID-19 in another thread that I still have open in another tab:
This is why people are being told TO STAY HOME and every single time people think, "Well, what I'm doing is safe," they are just making the entire situation worse for everyone else. There are SO MANY unknowns here but one thing we do know is that people are unintentionally giving this to other people and this chain can ONLY be broken by people self-quarantining for 2 weeks.
Leaving NYC to stay with you in Vermont is not self-quarantining, and even if you think "well, what I'm doing is safe," you're proposing something that would just make the entire situation worse for everyone else. I hope you can trust in what you clearly already know, let that knowledge help you through this anxiety, and enable you to support your adult daughter in making the very responsible but no doubt difficult decision she has made.
posted by DingoMutt at 7:35 PM on March 27, 2020 [29 favorites]
This is why people are being told TO STAY HOME and every single time people think, "Well, what I'm doing is safe," they are just making the entire situation worse for everyone else. There are SO MANY unknowns here but one thing we do know is that people are unintentionally giving this to other people and this chain can ONLY be broken by people self-quarantining for 2 weeks.
Leaving NYC to stay with you in Vermont is not self-quarantining, and even if you think "well, what I'm doing is safe," you're proposing something that would just make the entire situation worse for everyone else. I hope you can trust in what you clearly already know, let that knowledge help you through this anxiety, and enable you to support your adult daughter in making the very responsible but no doubt difficult decision she has made.
posted by DingoMutt at 7:35 PM on March 27, 2020 [29 favorites]
My folks have offered to house me and my housemate if necessary. Or my kid, if homeschooling goes for longer than my ex and I can handle between our work from home situations.
But they understand that this is a HUGE risk for them, regardless of how quarantined and distanced we are when we get there. My kid is prime asymptomatic age, housemate and I are likely to at least show symptoms but cannot get tested at this junction. They understand that if my dad gets it he is extremely likely to die. They understand that the comfort and perceived safety of having me out of my city and with them is weighed against possibly killing my own father.
So they offered, made it clear that we would do everything to lower risk, and then left it. They understand that my work means their house is suboptimal to say the least, that it is not as comforting or comfortable for me as my own house is, and that their desire for comfort and safety as represented by me being there is a massive risk.
They are also excruciatingly aware that those who are fleeing cities are in and of themselves infecting small communities and will cause deaths.
They don't have to like it. But unless they want to make everything far more emotionally fraught than it needs to be, they just check in and chat rather than start in again on the perceived risk of my location. And that emotionally, it would destroy me to infect them, or other at risk family, let alone anyone on the way. And that I am old enough and ugly enough to make my own risk assessment. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate their concern, or that I didn't go to my mother to get her opinion on isolating from my own ten year old after I ran a fever.
That respect makes it a hell of a lot easier to discuss future plans and options. I'd be shutting down if every time I made a decision i was subjected to undermining and overriding dictation, and wouldn't be opening up about anything.
You cannot help someone over a wall by increasing pressure, you will just smear them into paste. You give them a solid foundation to climb and in this case, step back.
posted by geek anachronism at 7:36 PM on March 27, 2020 [6 favorites]
But they understand that this is a HUGE risk for them, regardless of how quarantined and distanced we are when we get there. My kid is prime asymptomatic age, housemate and I are likely to at least show symptoms but cannot get tested at this junction. They understand that if my dad gets it he is extremely likely to die. They understand that the comfort and perceived safety of having me out of my city and with them is weighed against possibly killing my own father.
So they offered, made it clear that we would do everything to lower risk, and then left it. They understand that my work means their house is suboptimal to say the least, that it is not as comforting or comfortable for me as my own house is, and that their desire for comfort and safety as represented by me being there is a massive risk.
They are also excruciatingly aware that those who are fleeing cities are in and of themselves infecting small communities and will cause deaths.
They don't have to like it. But unless they want to make everything far more emotionally fraught than it needs to be, they just check in and chat rather than start in again on the perceived risk of my location. And that emotionally, it would destroy me to infect them, or other at risk family, let alone anyone on the way. And that I am old enough and ugly enough to make my own risk assessment. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate their concern, or that I didn't go to my mother to get her opinion on isolating from my own ten year old after I ran a fever.
That respect makes it a hell of a lot easier to discuss future plans and options. I'd be shutting down if every time I made a decision i was subjected to undermining and overriding dictation, and wouldn't be opening up about anything.
You cannot help someone over a wall by increasing pressure, you will just smear them into paste. You give them a solid foundation to climb and in this case, step back.
posted by geek anachronism at 7:36 PM on March 27, 2020 [6 favorites]
So, here's the thing:
they both say NYC now is anxiety-producing and scary, they won't leave
Everywhere in the planet is anxiety-producing and scary. Changing location here and now will only increase the fear. In this case, it would also increase the real risk.
posted by RainyJay at 7:38 PM on March 27, 2020 [16 favorites]
they both say NYC now is anxiety-producing and scary, they won't leave
Everywhere in the planet is anxiety-producing and scary. Changing location here and now will only increase the fear. In this case, it would also increase the real risk.
posted by RainyJay at 7:38 PM on March 27, 2020 [16 favorites]
She may be overwhelmed by the pressure she’s feeling to stay with you, on top of the stress of the pandemic situation in general. Maybe she feels guilty that she wants to stay in NYC, and not with you. She might feel pulled in several directions. It’s also hard to make decisions when one is under deep stress. Try to see things from her perspective.
Also, agreeing with the comments above. “Shelter-in-place” means stay where you are and wait it out. Traveling in any form may cause the virus to spread. We’re supposed to stay put. Also agreeing that sheltering in the comfort of your own home is MUCH MORE APPEALING than staying anywhere else. My boyfriend’s 80 year old mother is in Texas with family, and desperately wants to return here to Minnesota, but she’s going to stay where she is for at least a month. I feel for her, and her desire to be home. I think most of us are making these sacrifices right now!
posted by sucre at 8:01 PM on March 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
Also, agreeing with the comments above. “Shelter-in-place” means stay where you are and wait it out. Traveling in any form may cause the virus to spread. We’re supposed to stay put. Also agreeing that sheltering in the comfort of your own home is MUCH MORE APPEALING than staying anywhere else. My boyfriend’s 80 year old mother is in Texas with family, and desperately wants to return here to Minnesota, but she’s going to stay where she is for at least a month. I feel for her, and her desire to be home. I think most of us are making these sacrifices right now!
posted by sucre at 8:01 PM on March 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
(to contextualise, my mother told me I am doing the right thing to isolate and leave my kid at her dad's and just do video calls)
posted by geek anachronism at 8:07 PM on March 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by geek anachronism at 8:07 PM on March 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
Someday your daughter may need your help and your emotional support, but your current actions seem to be intended to drive a wedge between you. When someone tells you repeatedly that you're causing them anxiety and to please back off, and your response to their plea is to double down and start to involve other people (her siblings) in your fight, at a certain point that becomes abusive behavior. It looks like you're way past that point. Even if, as you claim, your relationship with your daughter was good before this all started, it's extremely toxic now due to your actions.
Try to imagine what the advice would be if your daughter posted here on AskMe about her parent ignoring her requests to back off, not respecting her decisions, and dragging siblings into the argument. It would probably range from "set firmer boundaries" to "cut off contact with this abusive person."
What you need to do if you want to salvage your relationship is first apologize, then back off completely, then examine your own refusal to accept other people's boundaries, maybe with the help of a professional.
posted by Umami Dearest at 8:19 PM on March 27, 2020 [11 favorites]
Try to imagine what the advice would be if your daughter posted here on AskMe about her parent ignoring her requests to back off, not respecting her decisions, and dragging siblings into the argument. It would probably range from "set firmer boundaries" to "cut off contact with this abusive person."
What you need to do if you want to salvage your relationship is first apologize, then back off completely, then examine your own refusal to accept other people's boundaries, maybe with the help of a professional.
posted by Umami Dearest at 8:19 PM on March 27, 2020 [11 favorites]
I am desperate for advice about what could possibly convince her. I do know that the rest of the family is not okay with "her life, her choice" considering that choosing to stay could kill her and leaving is a phone call away. Please, no advice along those lines. We are not going to be okay with that choice.
Listen, I get that you're stressed. But also... in February you had a post entitled "Violated Boundaries, Mother Edition," in which you said you were refusing to talk to your mother about something but she kept bringing it up over and over again.
The situations are not at all analogous, and I'm not suggesting they are. But a daughter wanting her mother to respect firmly stated boundaries -- that's the same thing.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:47 PM on March 27, 2020 [21 favorites]
Listen, I get that you're stressed. But also... in February you had a post entitled "Violated Boundaries, Mother Edition," in which you said you were refusing to talk to your mother about something but she kept bringing it up over and over again.
The situations are not at all analogous, and I'm not suggesting they are. But a daughter wanting her mother to respect firmly stated boundaries -- that's the same thing.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:47 PM on March 27, 2020 [21 favorites]
I'm someone's daughter who moved to New York when I grew up and flew the nest. I also would refuse such an offer from my parents if they asked.
The reason why is: for the past 30 years now, New York City has been my home. It has the streets and neighborhoods and people I know best. It has accepted me as I am right now, it has all the connections I'm most tied to, it has the background people i'm most used to. It has the scenery and noises and smells and temperatures and atmosphere that feel most familiar, and thus most secure. And security s what I also need now, as much as safety. If someone were to take me out of my home town, I might arguably be physically safer - but mentally I would be shaken and unsteady, and be missing something else that would let me cope with this crisis emotionally. And so I am staying, and just focusing closely on doing everything I can to keep myself safe where I am, in the city that is my home.
Your daughter is in her home town, where she feels most safe. Please don't uproot her from it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:59 PM on March 27, 2020 [10 favorites]
The reason why is: for the past 30 years now, New York City has been my home. It has the streets and neighborhoods and people I know best. It has accepted me as I am right now, it has all the connections I'm most tied to, it has the background people i'm most used to. It has the scenery and noises and smells and temperatures and atmosphere that feel most familiar, and thus most secure. And security s what I also need now, as much as safety. If someone were to take me out of my home town, I might arguably be physically safer - but mentally I would be shaken and unsteady, and be missing something else that would let me cope with this crisis emotionally. And so I am staying, and just focusing closely on doing everything I can to keep myself safe where I am, in the city that is my home.
Your daughter is in her home town, where she feels most safe. Please don't uproot her from it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:59 PM on March 27, 2020 [10 favorites]
I'm not sure that Vermont is any safer. This article published this evening in the NY Times says that the fatalities per 1,000 persons is currently the same in NYC and in the Burlington, Vt. metro, .03/thousand.
posted by Jahaza at 9:28 PM on March 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Jahaza at 9:28 PM on March 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
Vermont also has fewer hospital beds per capita than New York. Remember this is a pandemic, and nowhere in the US is more than a few weeks away from the situation New York is in today. Small states and rural areas are especially unable to handle an influx of patients.
posted by mbrubeck at 9:56 PM on March 27, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 9:56 PM on March 27, 2020 [10 favorites]
I am late to this thread and I have not read everything so forgive me if I repeat, but there is no way that the pandemic will be sufficiently in control for two weeks to be long enough for isolation and social distancing. We are on a timescale of months, not weeks. Possibly longer because our response is being constantly undermined by republicans. Please do not hold unrealistic expectations that anyone will be able to safely leave NYC in the next few weeks. Please let them stay and avoid the needless spread of the latent disease to other places, which will result in needless extra infections and therefore death.
If you need credentials, I am a professor of biology with training in both infectious disease research and predictive mathematical modeling. I am one of the few people you could ask for intelligent interpretation on this issue. Let them stay.
posted by jjray at 10:51 PM on March 27, 2020 [27 favorites]
If you need credentials, I am a professor of biology with training in both infectious disease research and predictive mathematical modeling. I am one of the few people you could ask for intelligent interpretation on this issue. Let them stay.
posted by jjray at 10:51 PM on March 27, 2020 [27 favorites]
nb OP has disabled their account.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:37 AM on March 28, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 2:37 AM on March 28, 2020 [1 favorite]
Just one last point thing to consider, in case OP is still around, or anyone else is going through something similar: does your daughter's NYS health insurance cover her in Vermont? She may be risking a ruinous out-of-network/uncovered bill if she gets sick while staying with you.
posted by caek at 3:01 PM on March 28, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by caek at 3:01 PM on March 28, 2020 [4 favorites]
(Caek, that was definitely one of the reasons I didn't leave, substantially earlier on.)
posted by praemunire at 4:04 PM on March 28, 2020
posted by praemunire at 4:04 PM on March 28, 2020
Further context: my folks just got diagnosed with COVID acquired on a cruise. I am blaming myself for not telling them to not go on said cruise.
I cannot imagine how bad I would feel if I were the vector, or had told them to do something risky to assuage my own fears.
I cannot go to them, look after them, do anything.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:15 PM on March 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
I cannot imagine how bad I would feel if I were the vector, or had told them to do something risky to assuage my own fears.
I cannot go to them, look after them, do anything.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:15 PM on March 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
You want her to come home because that’s where you feel safe. The thing is, she IS home. Her home. And if she’s anxious now, making her move from her safe space to be with a parents who sounds like they’re having a mental health episode themselves (ie you) could spell disaster. If you really love her, stop pressuring her and leave her alone.
posted by Jubey at 7:43 PM on April 1, 2020
posted by Jubey at 7:43 PM on April 1, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by corb at 2:22 PM on March 27, 2020 [10 favorites]