Relationship Advice with a Drinker?
March 1, 2020 1:48 AM Subscribe
I (40’s female) have been in a relationship with “Steve” (40’s male) for one year. There are many positives in the relationship as well as a strong emotional and intimate connection. But he’s a drinker, which has been interfering in our relationship. I don’t have experience with a partner like this and I’d like some perspective before deciding to end it for good.
A few months ago I broke up with Steve after a fight related to his drinking and other issues. We got back together and started seeing a therapist for couples counseling, and we’ve had two sessions. They’ve been good and have helped address the other issues but we haven’t talked at length in session about the drinking yet. (We’re doing couples counseling because he refuses to see an individual therapist.)
Simultaneous to counseling, Steve’s cut back on his drinking. Previously, he’d have a beer or two every weeknight at home and then weekends have a few drinks during the day and several at night. Now, he doesn’t drink at home but still has a few drinks when out with friends and occasionally that’s several drinks at a time. He doesn’t drink around me.
Previously, my problems with Steve’s drinking were that he’d be sloppy drunk at times (a turn off- even if I’d had a drink, he’d not make sense and I wouldn’t want to be close with him) or he’d be drunk when I wanted to talk after a really rough day for emotional support. For reasons, that would be phone calls or meetings planned for nights after work and we’d coordinate it in the day but when we’d get on the phone/meet, he wasn’t able to follow the conversation because he was too wasted. I’d explained how his thinking and speech changes after several drinks and been clear it wasn’t possible to connect when he was like that. This hadn’t happened since we got back together - until two nights ago.
I’m now out of town as the sole caretaker of a parent after their surgery. Two days ago was the surgery and Steve offered to talk at night because he knew I’d have had a heavy day. When we got on the call he couldn’t follow the gist or stick with the topic long enough so I asked if he’d been drinking and he said he had several over dinner with friends. I told him I didn’t want to talk with him because he wasn’t making sense and ended the call. We’ve since been exchanging texts where I told him why I was disappointed and he’s excusing his right to have drinks (because he hadn’t promised he’d give it up entirely), asking me to be more tolerant, and explaining all that he’s done in cutting back. This is an added stressor while I’m managing care for my parent, and I’m sad because it’s seeming like Steve’s not going to change and angry that he didn’t drink less before he knew we’d speak.
So dear hivemind, does anyone have experience with a partner like this? Has it ever gotten better if they hadn’t wanted to stop drinking? If you’ve walked away, what got you to that point?
A few months ago I broke up with Steve after a fight related to his drinking and other issues. We got back together and started seeing a therapist for couples counseling, and we’ve had two sessions. They’ve been good and have helped address the other issues but we haven’t talked at length in session about the drinking yet. (We’re doing couples counseling because he refuses to see an individual therapist.)
Simultaneous to counseling, Steve’s cut back on his drinking. Previously, he’d have a beer or two every weeknight at home and then weekends have a few drinks during the day and several at night. Now, he doesn’t drink at home but still has a few drinks when out with friends and occasionally that’s several drinks at a time. He doesn’t drink around me.
Previously, my problems with Steve’s drinking were that he’d be sloppy drunk at times (a turn off- even if I’d had a drink, he’d not make sense and I wouldn’t want to be close with him) or he’d be drunk when I wanted to talk after a really rough day for emotional support. For reasons, that would be phone calls or meetings planned for nights after work and we’d coordinate it in the day but when we’d get on the phone/meet, he wasn’t able to follow the conversation because he was too wasted. I’d explained how his thinking and speech changes after several drinks and been clear it wasn’t possible to connect when he was like that. This hadn’t happened since we got back together - until two nights ago.
I’m now out of town as the sole caretaker of a parent after their surgery. Two days ago was the surgery and Steve offered to talk at night because he knew I’d have had a heavy day. When we got on the call he couldn’t follow the gist or stick with the topic long enough so I asked if he’d been drinking and he said he had several over dinner with friends. I told him I didn’t want to talk with him because he wasn’t making sense and ended the call. We’ve since been exchanging texts where I told him why I was disappointed and he’s excusing his right to have drinks (because he hadn’t promised he’d give it up entirely), asking me to be more tolerant, and explaining all that he’s done in cutting back. This is an added stressor while I’m managing care for my parent, and I’m sad because it’s seeming like Steve’s not going to change and angry that he didn’t drink less before he knew we’d speak.
So dear hivemind, does anyone have experience with a partner like this? Has it ever gotten better if they hadn’t wanted to stop drinking? If you’ve walked away, what got you to that point?
Nthing Al-Anon. Don’t waste time trying or hoping to make your partner change. You only have control over yourself. I made the mistake of taking my partner’s drinking personally. It had nothing to do with me. But it did affect me and I eventually left because addicts and active alcoholics are unreliable.
I did not start attending Al-Anon meetings until after I left my partner but I found them useful for helping understand boundaries and learning how to establish boundaries to take care of myself after a lifetime of being a hyper-controlling bitch martyr (because I was raised by a hyper controlling bitch martyr mom who had good reasons to be that way, including being married to my alcoholic dad).
I am an atheist who is able to tolerate the god talk in Al-Anon meetings. If that’s not going to work for you, try to find some other kind of support. This is what you don’t want to do: become a nagging person counting the number of your partner’s drinks. It is not about whether your partner drinks or doesn’t drink, it’s about his ability to be available to you when you need him. That’s a big reason why we have partners, to support each other. If he can’t give you the support you need, it may not matter ultimately if it’s because he drinks or because he gambles or because he stays up all night or any other potential reason. The issue is if you can count on this guy. Ponder that, and take care of yourself.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:55 AM on March 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
I did not start attending Al-Anon meetings until after I left my partner but I found them useful for helping understand boundaries and learning how to establish boundaries to take care of myself after a lifetime of being a hyper-controlling bitch martyr (because I was raised by a hyper controlling bitch martyr mom who had good reasons to be that way, including being married to my alcoholic dad).
I am an atheist who is able to tolerate the god talk in Al-Anon meetings. If that’s not going to work for you, try to find some other kind of support. This is what you don’t want to do: become a nagging person counting the number of your partner’s drinks. It is not about whether your partner drinks or doesn’t drink, it’s about his ability to be available to you when you need him. That’s a big reason why we have partners, to support each other. If he can’t give you the support you need, it may not matter ultimately if it’s because he drinks or because he gambles or because he stays up all night or any other potential reason. The issue is if you can count on this guy. Ponder that, and take care of yourself.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:55 AM on March 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
I am sensing a big red flag in bf not willing to go to personal counselling. He needs positive diversions and protective behaviours training but so do you. You have to stop approaching this as something you're disappointed about and instead focus on what he's disappointed with, his triggers.
posted by parmanparman at 4:04 AM on March 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by parmanparman at 4:04 AM on March 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
This is what you don’t want to do: become a nagging person counting the number of your partner’s drinks.
You're already there. In trying to keep the relationship going--because you're empathetic and invested and you want this to work--you created this dynamic. You're the nag micromanaging his perfectly harmless drinking; he probably thinks he bends over backwards to appease you but you keep unfairly changing the rules, rinse and repeat.
What you two have now isn't sustainable. Going to therapy because you're forcing him won't work. Selectively drinking isn't going to work--it's a matter of time before you're out for dinner and he orders a beer and won't make eye contact.
He has something he needs to work on. You get to decide if you want to go on that ride with him, knowing there is not one single thing you can do but allow him to control you with his behavior.
Life is short. Save yourself a future of policing his behavior and building resentment and just end it . I'm sorry.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:21 AM on March 1, 2020 [36 favorites]
You're already there. In trying to keep the relationship going--because you're empathetic and invested and you want this to work--you created this dynamic. You're the nag micromanaging his perfectly harmless drinking; he probably thinks he bends over backwards to appease you but you keep unfairly changing the rules, rinse and repeat.
What you two have now isn't sustainable. Going to therapy because you're forcing him won't work. Selectively drinking isn't going to work--it's a matter of time before you're out for dinner and he orders a beer and won't make eye contact.
He has something he needs to work on. You get to decide if you want to go on that ride with him, knowing there is not one single thing you can do but allow him to control you with his behavior.
Life is short. Save yourself a future of policing his behavior and building resentment and just end it . I'm sorry.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:21 AM on March 1, 2020 [36 favorites]
Yeah, speaking as a Steve, I agree with others that you'll both be better off not trying to make this work.
posted by booooooze at 4:39 AM on March 1, 2020 [24 favorites]
posted by booooooze at 4:39 AM on March 1, 2020 [24 favorites]
Agreeing with folks here. In my experience, an alcoholic is pretty much always an alcoholic, and if they stop drinking, then they are a dry alcoholic. I was in a long relationship with an alcoholic (now over) and it would have been far far better if it had ended much much earlier. You don't need to be in a energy black hole with Steve, when you need to be looking after yourself and your parent. Do the best for yourself! (I might say sorry that it is over, but I really would say congratulations for waking up to this ...).
posted by life moves pretty fast at 5:31 AM on March 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by life moves pretty fast at 5:31 AM on March 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
It sounds like he was hiding some of his drinking from you before- “a beer or two“ isn’t going to make someone so “wasted” they can’t follow a conversation, so there were likely a couple of other drinks hidden in there too.
The alcoholic I dated would drink alone before she drank with witnesses. I finally made the the connection when I met her at a restaurant where she’d arrived “a little while” before me. After we had a couple drinks I happened to see the bill as she took it. I expected to see the 5 drinks I knew we’d had... instead, the bill was for 7.
You can’t make someone change, and it’s likely his drinking problem is worse than you’re aware of.
Each person’s tolerance is different, but for me- I’ve seen a few addictions up close, and it’s not a life I’d sign on for again.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:56 AM on March 1, 2020 [31 favorites]
The alcoholic I dated would drink alone before she drank with witnesses. I finally made the the connection when I met her at a restaurant where she’d arrived “a little while” before me. After we had a couple drinks I happened to see the bill as she took it. I expected to see the 5 drinks I knew we’d had... instead, the bill was for 7.
You can’t make someone change, and it’s likely his drinking problem is worse than you’re aware of.
Each person’s tolerance is different, but for me- I’ve seen a few addictions up close, and it’s not a life I’d sign on for again.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:56 AM on March 1, 2020 [31 favorites]
Has it ever gotten better if they hadn’t wanted to stop drinking? If you’ve walked away, what got you to that point?
No. He liked drinking more than anything about being with me. Part of leaving was letting go of the idea I would or could ever come first in his life. Things are difficult for you now, and they'll be easier once you end this relationship. Wishing you the strength to leave; good luck.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:05 AM on March 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
No. He liked drinking more than anything about being with me. Part of leaving was letting go of the idea I would or could ever come first in his life. Things are difficult for you now, and they'll be easier once you end this relationship. Wishing you the strength to leave; good luck.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:05 AM on March 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
Yeah, cut your losses. People can and do give up drinking all the time. People can decide to quit and take a somewhat twisty path with numerous attempts. But it sounds to me like he is not even at that point yet; he is still protecting his habit. As someone pointed out above, the fact that he resists individual counseling is not a hopeful sign about where he is at. He is fine dealing with your relationship as a problem because it shifts the focus off the alcohol and onto your relationship and, ultimately, you. He's going to be blaming you. Don't buy into all of that.
posted by BibiRose at 6:06 AM on March 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 6:06 AM on March 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
I had a guy quit drinking for me. He was a nice, easygoing guy who could be fun to party with, except on the not-infrequent occasions where he turned into a complete asshole when he got drunk. He would steal, get into fights, be abusive, etc. One time I went out of town to visit my mom overnight. He ran into his ex-girlfriend at a bar and hooked up with her. When I found out, I started to break up with him, but he cried, blamed it on the drinking and promised to stop. And he did. And we eventually got married.
He did not drink the whole time we were together, and to my knowledge he did not cheat on me again. The fighting, stealing and abuse also ceased with the drinking. He still smoked pot on the sly, which I didn't really care about because it didn't seem to affect my life that much. He did not have the same personality changes on pot as he did on alcohol, and since he was doing it on the sly I didn't have to accompany him when he bought it or waste my time sitting around at his friends' houses while he smoked up with them.
However, the relationship was never great. He became something of a workaholic... or maybe "busy-holic" would be more accurate. He seemed like he was allergic to staying home. He was either at work, or out doing odd jobs for his grandfather to make extra cash, or else out on some elaborate day-long hunting or fishing trip. We had a kid and for me it felt like being a single parent. I don't know if these were "dry drunk" behaviors or just who he was as a person. He never went to AA or to therapy, and addiction was heavy in his family history, so he very possibly was substituting these supposedly "healthy" coping mechanisms for drinking. And it had a very real negative effect on our relationship in that I never felt I had a real supportive or companionate relationship with him, due to him always being busy elsewhere.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:18 AM on March 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
He did not drink the whole time we were together, and to my knowledge he did not cheat on me again. The fighting, stealing and abuse also ceased with the drinking. He still smoked pot on the sly, which I didn't really care about because it didn't seem to affect my life that much. He did not have the same personality changes on pot as he did on alcohol, and since he was doing it on the sly I didn't have to accompany him when he bought it or waste my time sitting around at his friends' houses while he smoked up with them.
However, the relationship was never great. He became something of a workaholic... or maybe "busy-holic" would be more accurate. He seemed like he was allergic to staying home. He was either at work, or out doing odd jobs for his grandfather to make extra cash, or else out on some elaborate day-long hunting or fishing trip. We had a kid and for me it felt like being a single parent. I don't know if these were "dry drunk" behaviors or just who he was as a person. He never went to AA or to therapy, and addiction was heavy in his family history, so he very possibly was substituting these supposedly "healthy" coping mechanisms for drinking. And it had a very real negative effect on our relationship in that I never felt I had a real supportive or companionate relationship with him, due to him always being busy elsewhere.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:18 AM on March 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
I wanted to add-- alcoholics are some of the most interesting people you meet. I grew up in a family of alcoholics and addicts; the ones that used were the most glamorous and intense. Many people have a continuous track record of dating addicts because they are really attractive. And it can be very hard to break up with them for the same reason, no matter how many times you see the downside. So don't kick yourself too much over this.
posted by BibiRose at 6:26 AM on March 1, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 6:26 AM on March 1, 2020 [12 favorites]
I would also like to suggest that you do some reading on codependency. The fact that you haven't been in a relationship to an alcoholic or drug addict before might indicate that you are not someone who has struggled with codependency in the past, or possibly you have but with someone whose issues were not substance related. At any rate, codependency can be triggered by being in a relationship with an addicted person. You become addicted to trying to fix them: as you go through cycles of them trying to quit, the relationship improves a bit, every time that happens you see the potential for things to be really good, and when they relapse you drive yourself crazy trying to figure out what failed and what you can do to make it actually STICK; and you wind up tying yourself in knots trying to be and do and say the magic thing that will finally work, only nothing ever does. You can get locked into a vicious cycle like this for years.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:38 AM on March 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:38 AM on March 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
Previously, he’d have a beer or two every weeknight at home and then weekends have a few drinks during the day and several at night.
This sounds innocuous, sort of, and a lot of people would say "that's no big deal, I drink that much and I'm fine." News flash, they are not fine. Remember: this is his baseline right now. He's restraining himself to try to hold on to the relationship with you.
This hadn’t happened since we got back together - until two nights ago.
When people have a substance problem they tend to slide back to the baseline over time. There are neurological reasons for this, but that's not really at issue right now. The important part is the pattern. He has changed his behavior, but he has not developed an internal locus of control. Right now his locus of control is external - you, the relationship, the "rules" he thinks he's agreed to with you, for you. No one is going to be able to manage substances or engage in a fully adult relationship without developing a sense of self-management and agency from the inside. He doesn't have it yet.
I join those with the advice to "cut your losses." I can think of a particular 4-year relationship I would have ended in year 1 if I'd known what I know now, because these patterns were present. I was younger and thought that we were just enduring ups and downs and life stressors - but in fact, he had an untreated alcohol dependency, and I developed codependency. I went to Al-Anon and did some self-therapy for codependency. Both these things helped me greatly. But what helped me the most is loving myself enough to end the relationship with someone who was really troubled and had no sincere interest in helping himself get well. I think you'll respect yourself, and love yourself, more if you do the same. There's no sudden rise to glory in relationships like this, no sun bursting from the clouds to make everything okay. The merry-go-round just keeps going around on exactly the same path until you decide to step off.
I'm really sorry. If you end it you'll feel some grief, but you might also feel elation and a renewed sense of positive feeling for and investment in yourself. You deserve to be the focus of all your healing and support energies, not someone who just can't benefit from them.
posted by Miko at 6:55 AM on March 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
This sounds innocuous, sort of, and a lot of people would say "that's no big deal, I drink that much and I'm fine." News flash, they are not fine. Remember: this is his baseline right now. He's restraining himself to try to hold on to the relationship with you.
This hadn’t happened since we got back together - until two nights ago.
When people have a substance problem they tend to slide back to the baseline over time. There are neurological reasons for this, but that's not really at issue right now. The important part is the pattern. He has changed his behavior, but he has not developed an internal locus of control. Right now his locus of control is external - you, the relationship, the "rules" he thinks he's agreed to with you, for you. No one is going to be able to manage substances or engage in a fully adult relationship without developing a sense of self-management and agency from the inside. He doesn't have it yet.
I join those with the advice to "cut your losses." I can think of a particular 4-year relationship I would have ended in year 1 if I'd known what I know now, because these patterns were present. I was younger and thought that we were just enduring ups and downs and life stressors - but in fact, he had an untreated alcohol dependency, and I developed codependency. I went to Al-Anon and did some self-therapy for codependency. Both these things helped me greatly. But what helped me the most is loving myself enough to end the relationship with someone who was really troubled and had no sincere interest in helping himself get well. I think you'll respect yourself, and love yourself, more if you do the same. There's no sudden rise to glory in relationships like this, no sun bursting from the clouds to make everything okay. The merry-go-round just keeps going around on exactly the same path until you decide to step off.
I'm really sorry. If you end it you'll feel some grief, but you might also feel elation and a renewed sense of positive feeling for and investment in yourself. You deserve to be the focus of all your healing and support energies, not someone who just can't benefit from them.
posted by Miko at 6:55 AM on March 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
Hi! As the child of an alcoholic, I have never dated an alcoholic, but one my my best friends at the moment has a drinking problem, and it's exhausting. A wonderful human being. So smart. So loving. But you gotta be okay with the fact that they are going to be drunk, and they are going to choose drinking over you, and it's not personal. Or you break it off.
posted by athirstforsalt at 7:47 AM on March 1, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by athirstforsalt at 7:47 AM on March 1, 2020 [10 favorites]
I’m now out of town as the sole caretaker of a parent after their surgery. Two days ago was the surgery and Steve offered to talk at night because he knew I’d have had a heavy day. When we got on the call he couldn’t follow the gist or stick with the topic long enough so I asked if he’d been drinking and he said he had several over dinner with friends.
Read this again. He prioritized getting smashed over being present for you while you're in a high-stress situation. He didn't have two or even three, he got so wasted that he couldn't follow what you're saying, on a night that he knew you needed emotional support.
My dad is an alcoholic. He got clean for me in high school and stayed clean for my brother for a while, but he's never been able to stay clean because he can't find a reason to do it for himself. Steve here is the same way, but more so: he's not even willing to quit for you, he's just trying to drink a little less around you, just enough less that you don't leave but not any more than that. He's not willing to treat it like the very real problem that it is, he's not willing to go to therapy or AA, he's doing the absolute minimum because he isn't ready to address it.
He may have a lot of great qualities, but he's already shown you that at the end of the day, drinking is more important to him than being present for you, and that he doesn't think he has a problem.
Leave him. There are lots of great people out there who will talk to you on the phone while you're caring for your parent and be present and coherent.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:53 AM on March 1, 2020 [22 favorites]
Read this again. He prioritized getting smashed over being present for you while you're in a high-stress situation. He didn't have two or even three, he got so wasted that he couldn't follow what you're saying, on a night that he knew you needed emotional support.
My dad is an alcoholic. He got clean for me in high school and stayed clean for my brother for a while, but he's never been able to stay clean because he can't find a reason to do it for himself. Steve here is the same way, but more so: he's not even willing to quit for you, he's just trying to drink a little less around you, just enough less that you don't leave but not any more than that. He's not willing to treat it like the very real problem that it is, he's not willing to go to therapy or AA, he's doing the absolute minimum because he isn't ready to address it.
He may have a lot of great qualities, but he's already shown you that at the end of the day, drinking is more important to him than being present for you, and that he doesn't think he has a problem.
Leave him. There are lots of great people out there who will talk to you on the phone while you're caring for your parent and be present and coherent.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:53 AM on March 1, 2020 [22 favorites]
Seconding what was said above, if he can't follow or keep up a conversation he hasn't had a few beers, he's had a right skinful. It's a distressing form of emotional unavailability. I would cut your losses.
posted by Flitcraft at 7:54 AM on March 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by Flitcraft at 7:54 AM on March 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
We’ve since been exchanging texts where I told him why I was disappointed and he’s excusing his right to have drinks (because he hadn’t promised he’d give it up entirely), asking me to be more tolerant, and explaining all that he’s done in cutting back. This is an added stressor while I’m managing care for my parent, and I’m sad because it’s seeming like Steve’s not going to change and angry that he didn’t drink less before he knew we’d speak.
Be careful with being "disappointed" in others. Be careful with expectations and monitoring his behavior and making it about you. Because nothing he does is because of you. This is true with all people -- problem drinkers, addicts, or sober people. It's not personal even if it seems he could or should make better life choices in order to preserve a relationship. If you want a boyfriend who isn't sloppy or a problem drinker, you will probably have to find another boyfriend.
Be careful with monitoring for signs of his drinking and complaining because this is only pointless drama and it's not your job or role. It becomes a little boy and mother scenario. Essentially you are trying to manipulate his behavior in order to meet your needs. This can trigger defensiveness in him. Because you are resentful or "disappointed" he then either gets angry, creates more distance, has to explain, or promise, or hide, and the cycle continues until you have a realization. Codependency is about shame and control. You don't have to take care of others. You don't have to control his behavior in order to be at peace.
I have lots of experience with codependency and family alcoholism. I would advise not to go down this very painful road of disappointments and expectations. Couples counseling without mentioning problem drinking or addiction is interesting. Codependency is probably the cause of all of your "problems". People who drink are usually unconsciously trying to create distance in relationships. It's a fear of intimacy or getting too close.
If you choose to stay:
-Instead of complaining about how he's not here for you, end the conversation promptly without anger or guilt-trips. It's not about you.
-You can't tell him how many drinks to have, or not to have, or to be sober at a certain time. That's up to him. You can make a choice to not be around when he's drinking.
-When someone is drunk they are not present. You can either self-soothe or talk with friends or both.
-Concentrate on individual therapy because your well-being and peace is not dependent on how he behaves. Often couples counseling is about trying to fix another person. You might be surprised to learn that you have issues that perpetuate drama or lack of closeness. If his behavior becomes untenable you have a choice to leave. Don't forget that you have power and choice. Staying and complaining and feeling wronged or sad or as victim is codependency.
-Surrender. You are powerless to change his drinking.
If you want to read further about codependency see Darlene Lancer. She has a website, books, and videos on YouTube. Also Melodie Beattie is highly recommended. I've listened to Beattie's books on audio. Good reminders that you are responsible for your own happiness.
posted by loveandhappiness at 8:00 AM on March 1, 2020 [15 favorites]
Be careful with being "disappointed" in others. Be careful with expectations and monitoring his behavior and making it about you. Because nothing he does is because of you. This is true with all people -- problem drinkers, addicts, or sober people. It's not personal even if it seems he could or should make better life choices in order to preserve a relationship. If you want a boyfriend who isn't sloppy or a problem drinker, you will probably have to find another boyfriend.
Be careful with monitoring for signs of his drinking and complaining because this is only pointless drama and it's not your job or role. It becomes a little boy and mother scenario. Essentially you are trying to manipulate his behavior in order to meet your needs. This can trigger defensiveness in him. Because you are resentful or "disappointed" he then either gets angry, creates more distance, has to explain, or promise, or hide, and the cycle continues until you have a realization. Codependency is about shame and control. You don't have to take care of others. You don't have to control his behavior in order to be at peace.
I have lots of experience with codependency and family alcoholism. I would advise not to go down this very painful road of disappointments and expectations. Couples counseling without mentioning problem drinking or addiction is interesting. Codependency is probably the cause of all of your "problems". People who drink are usually unconsciously trying to create distance in relationships. It's a fear of intimacy or getting too close.
If you choose to stay:
-Instead of complaining about how he's not here for you, end the conversation promptly without anger or guilt-trips. It's not about you.
-You can't tell him how many drinks to have, or not to have, or to be sober at a certain time. That's up to him. You can make a choice to not be around when he's drinking.
-When someone is drunk they are not present. You can either self-soothe or talk with friends or both.
-Concentrate on individual therapy because your well-being and peace is not dependent on how he behaves. Often couples counseling is about trying to fix another person. You might be surprised to learn that you have issues that perpetuate drama or lack of closeness. If his behavior becomes untenable you have a choice to leave. Don't forget that you have power and choice. Staying and complaining and feeling wronged or sad or as victim is codependency.
-Surrender. You are powerless to change his drinking.
If you want to read further about codependency see Darlene Lancer. She has a website, books, and videos on YouTube. Also Melodie Beattie is highly recommended. I've listened to Beattie's books on audio. Good reminders that you are responsible for your own happiness.
posted by loveandhappiness at 8:00 AM on March 1, 2020 [15 favorites]
I want to reinforce what bile and syntax said above -- Steve is doing the bare minimum he thinks he can get away with to keep you in the relationship, and he isn't even succeeding at that.
That's a problem beyond the booze. Steve doesn't take any care for your well-being, not even when you're in an awful situation and really need the care. Chances of this changing in your favor seem slim.
I married a do-the-minimum dude. He spent the entire relationship, before and after we married, trying to force me to be explicit about the minimum I would accept and then ignoring that minimum. I deserved better than that -- and so do you.
posted by humbug at 8:29 AM on March 1, 2020 [17 favorites]
That's a problem beyond the booze. Steve doesn't take any care for your well-being, not even when you're in an awful situation and really need the care. Chances of this changing in your favor seem slim.
I married a do-the-minimum dude. He spent the entire relationship, before and after we married, trying to force me to be explicit about the minimum I would accept and then ignoring that minimum. I deserved better than that -- and so do you.
posted by humbug at 8:29 AM on March 1, 2020 [17 favorites]
Has it ever gotten better if they hadn’t wanted to stop drinking?
It can't get better without him stopping when he's damaged his brain to this extent. A person who has not been a lifelong alcoholic can, unless they have a particularly strong and strange reaction to alcohol, carry on a serious conversation after having a few drinks over dinner. even sometimes when they are kind of drunk. but Steve can't. So it can't get better as long as you still need to talk to him sometimes.
I don't understand the physical processes involved but I've run into people who have drunk so much for so long that they sound kind of incoherent and scattered even before they start drinking that day. I don't know if this goes away after a long period of sobriety, or how long it takes. but rules about drinking that are reasonable for non-alcoholics sometimes just don't work for people who have gone this far down the road -- I mean even if they stick to those limits perfectly, a little alcohol still renders them totally useless and mentally absent. you would think they'd have a much higher tolerance and a higher drunk threshold, but it doesn't always work that way. he doesn't have to be a liar about having cut down -- and maybe he's not! -- to be incapable of handling any liquor at all. not because of some philosophical AA reason, but because this is just what happens.
a few drinks during the day and several at night
I realize this is his previous and not his current (reported) habit, and that you're probably trying to be careful and accurate. but this comes across as an attempt to minimize a man drinking all day without stopping. day vs. night doesn't mean anything in that case.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:56 AM on March 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
It can't get better without him stopping when he's damaged his brain to this extent. A person who has not been a lifelong alcoholic can, unless they have a particularly strong and strange reaction to alcohol, carry on a serious conversation after having a few drinks over dinner. even sometimes when they are kind of drunk. but Steve can't. So it can't get better as long as you still need to talk to him sometimes.
I don't understand the physical processes involved but I've run into people who have drunk so much for so long that they sound kind of incoherent and scattered even before they start drinking that day. I don't know if this goes away after a long period of sobriety, or how long it takes. but rules about drinking that are reasonable for non-alcoholics sometimes just don't work for people who have gone this far down the road -- I mean even if they stick to those limits perfectly, a little alcohol still renders them totally useless and mentally absent. you would think they'd have a much higher tolerance and a higher drunk threshold, but it doesn't always work that way. he doesn't have to be a liar about having cut down -- and maybe he's not! -- to be incapable of handling any liquor at all. not because of some philosophical AA reason, but because this is just what happens.
a few drinks during the day and several at night
I realize this is his previous and not his current (reported) habit, and that you're probably trying to be careful and accurate. but this comes across as an attempt to minimize a man drinking all day without stopping. day vs. night doesn't mean anything in that case.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:56 AM on March 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
I think you need to give him a clear ultimatum, you don't want to date a drinker any more, so he can either choose the drink or he can choose you. Just be very clear that he needs to quit completely and permanently if he wants you to stay.
posted by Lanark at 9:31 AM on March 1, 2020
posted by Lanark at 9:31 AM on March 1, 2020
Just be very clear that he needs to quit completely and permanently if he wants you to stay.
I did that. And my partner stopped drinking finally. Well, I thought he had stopped drinking. About 9 months after our come-to-jesus talk I moved his jacket for some reason and discovered it was surprisingly heavy. Turns out there was a bottle hidden in the inside pocket. I spent a day in bed weeping and then was all, "WTF, I decided a year ago what was going to happen, there's nothing to weep over I just need to figure out how to move out."
For what it is worth, my ex and I are now good friends. We have lived thousands of miles apart and have also been neighbours. Roughly 13 years after I left, he stopped drinking. I did my very best to stay out of his business while he was still drinking and try to do my very best to stay out of his business now that he has stopped drinking. It is genuinely none of my business. When he was still drinking, as his buddy I would just leave when he got smashed and go do something else. But not everyone can do that. I certainly could not do that before several years of going to Al-Anon meetings.
I wish I had been less bitter when I left. I blamed him for putting the bottle ahead of me and our kid. But honestly, that is not how addiction works. No one decides they want shitty relationships because they can't stay sober or to be erratic and irresponsible. Be kind to yourself but also try to be kind to Steve. Again, his drinking is not personal. He is not drinking at you and, as noted by others, you are not his mom. Acting accordingly is by far the best form of self-care. I waited way too many years to leave.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:50 AM on March 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
I did that. And my partner stopped drinking finally. Well, I thought he had stopped drinking. About 9 months after our come-to-jesus talk I moved his jacket for some reason and discovered it was surprisingly heavy. Turns out there was a bottle hidden in the inside pocket. I spent a day in bed weeping and then was all, "WTF, I decided a year ago what was going to happen, there's nothing to weep over I just need to figure out how to move out."
For what it is worth, my ex and I are now good friends. We have lived thousands of miles apart and have also been neighbours. Roughly 13 years after I left, he stopped drinking. I did my very best to stay out of his business while he was still drinking and try to do my very best to stay out of his business now that he has stopped drinking. It is genuinely none of my business. When he was still drinking, as his buddy I would just leave when he got smashed and go do something else. But not everyone can do that. I certainly could not do that before several years of going to Al-Anon meetings.
I wish I had been less bitter when I left. I blamed him for putting the bottle ahead of me and our kid. But honestly, that is not how addiction works. No one decides they want shitty relationships because they can't stay sober or to be erratic and irresponsible. Be kind to yourself but also try to be kind to Steve. Again, his drinking is not personal. He is not drinking at you and, as noted by others, you are not his mom. Acting accordingly is by far the best form of self-care. I waited way too many years to leave.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:50 AM on March 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
Alcoholics lie. That's all you need to know. They might be completely sincere in the moment, but they will always choose their addiction over you.
posted by SPrintF at 9:56 AM on March 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 9:56 AM on March 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
No one decides they want shitty relationships because they can't stay sober or to be erratic and irresponsible.
I wouldn't say no one, exactly, but I would say that it may help you to feel better if you don't think of it as him choosing alcohol over you. He has a problem with complex physical and psychological roots that no one has really worked out how to treat effectively for the majority of the population, and which you certainly don't know how to. I agree with the advice about protecting yourself above, but in case you're wondering if you're just less appealing than being sloppy drunk, it's not that at all.
posted by praemunire at 9:57 AM on March 1, 2020 [13 favorites]
I wouldn't say no one, exactly, but I would say that it may help you to feel better if you don't think of it as him choosing alcohol over you. He has a problem with complex physical and psychological roots that no one has really worked out how to treat effectively for the majority of the population, and which you certainly don't know how to. I agree with the advice about protecting yourself above, but in case you're wondering if you're just less appealing than being sloppy drunk, it's not that at all.
posted by praemunire at 9:57 AM on March 1, 2020 [13 favorites]
The DSM-V defines substance use disorders as chronic, relapsing conditions. Without bringing morality or rightness or wrongness into it, I think you need to ask yourself if you are okay signing onto having *this particular* chronic, relapsing as a part of your life. I don't really buy into the co-dependency paradigm, which is an unpopular opinion in these parts. But the reality is you may end up doing some caregiving, and not having your needs met consistently. That's going to be the cost of staying with Steve, and you need to decide if its worth it. There's not a clear cut answer. It's really about what you want.
posted by unstrungharp at 11:16 AM on March 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by unstrungharp at 11:16 AM on March 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
My ex was a drinker. I’ve never been comfortable with calling him an alcoholic, he was perfectly capable of staying sober if he wanted, he never lied or hid his drinking from me. But we had a fundamental disagreement about when it was appropriate drink and how much, and it sounds like you and Steve are in the same place. It waxed and waned over the length of our relationship, but like Steve, my ex wanted to drink to the point of being drunk during the week and spend all day on the weekends drinking, no matter what we were doing. He saw nothing wrong with this, and I did. Like you are experiencing, he was a different person when drunk and not able to be there fully. But this was absolutely not a problem to him. To him, getting drunk was just what one did during free time, to relax, to have fun. It was fundamental difference of opinion with us, and in the end he basically left me for someone that shared his view on drinking. I think this may be where you guys are – Steve doesn’t see his drinking as a problem, he sees your views on his drinking as a problem. To him you are implementing arbitrary rules he doesn’t agree with that mean he can’t have fun and relax. This isn’t going to get better. If he quits drinking for you, that will always be hanging over your relationship as the giant change he made for you. And if he doesn’t, you will always be feeling let down by him.
posted by Sabby at 12:33 PM on March 1, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by Sabby at 12:33 PM on March 1, 2020 [10 favorites]
OP can you clarify whether on the evenings that he only drinks a couple of beers he also becomes unfocused, incapable of holding a conversation, etc. even if that impairment is stronger on other nights?
posted by MiraK at 2:08 PM on March 1, 2020
posted by MiraK at 2:08 PM on March 1, 2020
Steve is not ready or not willing to be honest about his drinking. I suspect he’s not honest with you about the amount he drinks. He refuses to go to individual counseling where he might have to confront the problem directly. And despite drinking being the major reason for conflict in your relationship, you haven’t discussed it much yet with your couples’ counselor (why not?). I don’t think it’s possible to build a healthy relationship when there is this significant a level of denial going on. Steve has a ways to go in his journey to get healthy.
posted by sallybrown at 4:36 PM on March 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by sallybrown at 4:36 PM on March 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
As echoed above - this is not a drink or two and not able to hold a conversation. This is something else. Charitably this is someone who isn't focussed on you and your relationship, uncharitably this is someone who needs help with substance abuse.
I don't know what the right answer for you is, but all of the drinking aside; if you're not getting what you need out of it and you're not feeling met with honesty and trust, it's not going to work. Take care of yourself.
posted by iamabot at 10:10 PM on March 1, 2020
I don't know what the right answer for you is, but all of the drinking aside; if you're not getting what you need out of it and you're not feeling met with honesty and trust, it's not going to work. Take care of yourself.
posted by iamabot at 10:10 PM on March 1, 2020
so, you are dating an alcoholic who isn't (and maybe can't) meet your needs. if he's not committed to recovery, you guys will spend forever in this cycle.
posted by megan_magnolia at 6:18 AM on March 2, 2020
posted by megan_magnolia at 6:18 AM on March 2, 2020
I walked away after marrying an alcoholic. No one can you what your life story is going to be if you stay with this man - I think this is something you will have to see and hear about and talk to others about. I recommend trying out an Al-Anon meeting to talk in real life to people who are going through what you are. You aren't required to make a decision right now, but now is a good time to gather some more information on what your life might look like if you continue to stay with him and he never changes. (You should always just assume that your partner is not going to change, when making decisions about your future.)
Al-Anon is for people who are concerned about another person's drinking. I think you'd fit in.
posted by juniperesque at 8:25 AM on March 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Al-Anon is for people who are concerned about another person's drinking. I think you'd fit in.
posted by juniperesque at 8:25 AM on March 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't stay in this relationship. Any change has to come from Steve and he's not ready to quit. I think he would need to quit for you to feel safe and instead he's treading the boundary you've set and crossing it.
My dad was an alcoholic but did quit later in life. It took him years to accept that he couldn't have "just one" and to be successful at avoiding alcohol. I don't know what he did to get to a point of quitting but I'm sure it was a struggle over many years.
As an adult I've (eventually) broken up with every man I've been in a relationship with who was a problem/heavy drinker or trending in that direction (like someone who can't have dinner without a drink, who can't go out without a drink, who always has a beer in their hand in their free time, who drinks pretty much any excuse they have even if it doesn't impair their speech or behavior and they are largely functional), partly due to my experience with my dad.
Alcoholism can be subtle but it takes a toll because to some extent they are not really there with you, with Steve it's not subtle. As a comparison my partner is addicted to cigarettes - it bothers me in that he takes smoke breaks frequently, it's expensive, and I worry for his health, but he smokes outside, he doesn't rely on me to pay for the habit, it doesn't impair his abililty to relate to me, he has never not showed up for me because of his smoking, our time together is pleasant and I don't dedicate much if any energy to wondering about when he's last smoked or will smoke again. I 100% accept that he will quit when he's ready, don't make it my responsibility to manage, and I accept that he might never quit. I think you need to do the same for Steve, and if that makes the relationship untenable you would be better off leaving. He will keep moving the goalposts if not outright lie/hide his drinking from you from the sound of it. You will waste your precious energy policing him and it's such an unhealthy dynamic that will slowly harm you/change who you are. If you need support Alcoholics Anonymous or Codependents Anonymous might be helpful.
posted by lafemma at 9:59 AM on March 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
My dad was an alcoholic but did quit later in life. It took him years to accept that he couldn't have "just one" and to be successful at avoiding alcohol. I don't know what he did to get to a point of quitting but I'm sure it was a struggle over many years.
As an adult I've (eventually) broken up with every man I've been in a relationship with who was a problem/heavy drinker or trending in that direction (like someone who can't have dinner without a drink, who can't go out without a drink, who always has a beer in their hand in their free time, who drinks pretty much any excuse they have even if it doesn't impair their speech or behavior and they are largely functional), partly due to my experience with my dad.
Alcoholism can be subtle but it takes a toll because to some extent they are not really there with you, with Steve it's not subtle. As a comparison my partner is addicted to cigarettes - it bothers me in that he takes smoke breaks frequently, it's expensive, and I worry for his health, but he smokes outside, he doesn't rely on me to pay for the habit, it doesn't impair his abililty to relate to me, he has never not showed up for me because of his smoking, our time together is pleasant and I don't dedicate much if any energy to wondering about when he's last smoked or will smoke again. I 100% accept that he will quit when he's ready, don't make it my responsibility to manage, and I accept that he might never quit. I think you need to do the same for Steve, and if that makes the relationship untenable you would be better off leaving. He will keep moving the goalposts if not outright lie/hide his drinking from you from the sound of it. You will waste your precious energy policing him and it's such an unhealthy dynamic that will slowly harm you/change who you are. If you need support Alcoholics Anonymous or Codependents Anonymous might be helpful.
posted by lafemma at 9:59 AM on March 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
You mention you are in your 40s. On the assumption that Steve has also been around about that long, is there any insight you can gain from his past relationship history?
posted by Miko at 10:35 AM on March 2, 2020
posted by Miko at 10:35 AM on March 2, 2020
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Ultimately how much you are willing to put in is up to you. And he might not change. He might not ever see that his drinking is a problem. Drinking also has issues of physical dependence (it's unclear if this is the case, but in generally people who drink multiple drinks a day do develop physical dependence) which requires medical management to stop. Physical alcohol withdrawal is really really hard on the body and can be dangerous leading up to symptoms that can cause seizures or even death.
It is definately okay not to be in a relationship with someone with an addiction, because their addiction is their primary relationship. It is their life. You are second or your third or fourth or fifth. They are using it to manage their feelings and emotions and not deal with the hard things in life. You get left behind.
Some people do recover. Some people are willing to put in the hard work that it takes to stop depending on a substance for whatever it does for them. But you can't do that for him. He's got to do it for himself . If he's not willing to aknowelge the problem cutting your losses may be the best thing for you. For him, maybe it will help maybe it won't. But it will free you to find what you deserve in a partner. One who is open and available when you need them to be. When you ask them to be. You deserve that.
It's hard. And I'm sorry you are going through this right now. Al anon may be a good resource for you, to get people's perspectives on this. Take gentle care.
posted by AlexiaSky at 2:17 AM on March 1, 2020 [15 favorites]