For Mahler's 9th, does it have to be the Berlin Philharmonic?

January 22, 2020 9:21 AM

Having picked 15 iconic works of classical music begin my journey into the genre, I find myself "dis-concerted," if you will, by the idea that each has an equally iconic rendition. Experts say Mahler's 9th = Berlin Philharmonic, Carmina Burana = Eugen Jochum with the Bavarian Radio Orchestra, and so on. There are dozens if not hundreds of recordings of each of my 15 greatest hits. Should I worry about picking the Cleveland Symphony, say, over Berlin?
posted by BadgerDoctor to Society & Culture (27 answers total)

If you're just getting into classical music, that's not something I would worry about at all. It takes a while of pretty sophisticated listening to get the nuances of one conductor over another. If you're deciding between celebrated orchestras like the Berlin Philharmonic and the Cleveland Symphony and so on, you'll be getting at the very least perfectly good performances for your needs right now.

Source: Been listening to classical music for 40 years now, and when I started I couldn't have told you the difference between one great performance and another if you had held a gun to my head.
posted by holborne at 9:32 AM on January 22, 2020 [12 favorites]

You will find that the "experts" don't even necessarily agree, especially not over time. The guide that I used when a wee collegiate praemunire as an aid to choosing recordings now rarely even mentions their top picks back then! I find those sorts of guides more useful for flagging highly idiosyncratic or unusually bad recordings than for picking the One True Recording. (Which there isn't, really. Different interpretations will often bring out different strengths in a piece.)
posted by praemunire at 9:35 AM on January 22, 2020 [2 favorites]

Imagine you had never eaten pizza before. Would the difference between good pizza and great pizza make an impression on your enjoyment of pizza? Eat the pizza! Start your memories of pizza-in-your-life. You can get picky later on.

For myself, even though I've had great pizza, I'm happy to eat just good pizza, too.
posted by tmdonahue at 10:08 AM on January 22, 2020 [8 favorites]

I agree with holborne. IMO the completionist/ originalist approach to classical really gets in the way of trying to enjoy a piece for the pleasure it brings. Unless you are really well-versed or classically trained, look more toward recording quality and accessibility than who did what performance. Generally speaking, any professional-level musician is going to give you something you'll enjoy, despite their interpretive differences.
posted by Think_Long at 10:31 AM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]

Also, sometimes it's fun to listen to a bad performance because it makes it easier (for me, anyway) to appreciate the good ones. Your tastes will evolve as you listen, too. It's a journey, don't worry about it too much.
posted by winna at 10:33 AM on January 22, 2020

A good beginner's heuristic is, just go with Deutsche Grammophon.

The key to enjoyment and appreciation is recognizing themes and structure.

You can look on youtube for performances paired with scrolling music.
posted by dum spiro spero at 10:34 AM on January 22, 2020 [5 favorites]

Another no. There’s sometimes something of a consensus but even then it’s 1) thoroughly subjective and 2) not going to matter to you if you haven’t listened to a ton of stuff and developed your own taste. I think you’re either going to like Mahler 9 or find it’s not your thing almost entirely independent of which recording you get.

And really this is good practice for, if you do become a classical music fan, not becoming a versionologist. It’ll be fun later on to have favorites, but it’ll also make your conversations about music a lot more interesting from both sides if your tastes are qualitative and not about rankings.
posted by less of course at 10:37 AM on January 22, 2020

I would say Hans Rosbaud for Mahler 9.

I would also say: don't worry about conductors or recordings for now. You'll get more out of learning about each piece in its historical context, and thinking about what each one says and what language it is saying it in. Think about how each one makes you feel, what is unique about it, and why you want to listen to it again, or not. You don't have to like everything just because it's iconic.
posted by unstrungharp at 10:41 AM on January 22, 2020

Another latecomer to classical music here - I started getting into it about 25 years ago when you would buy the "Penguin Guide to Classical Music" and then buy the CDs that they recommended. You can waste a lot of time and mental energy on that attitude. Now that there are vast numbers of recordings available on streaming services and YouTube, just listen around and pick the recording that makes your ears and brain happy.
posted by matildaben at 10:43 AM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]

Amazon reviews are great for "you were a tone-deaf idiot for buying that one instead of this one", but when they take the time and effort to tell you exactly why you were an idiot one can often be educated and entertained even if one vehemently disagrees with the assessment.
posted by Chitownfats at 11:43 AM on January 22, 2020 [2 favorites]

I've always liked listening to classical music. For a long time I couldn't tell different conductors apart. What I could tell was that some radio programmers really liked some particular early 20th century performances from old technically limited recordings, which I found odd then, but now I get it. Also became a fan of Maria Callas eventually.

I was fortunate to hear some interesting classical radio DJs growing up, of which there are fewer nowadays. With radio you sometimes get the unexpected. Philip Conlon of Classical Underground is quite good, he programs a mix of old and new challenging work, and he always has fascinating context and opinions.
posted by ovvl at 11:44 AM on January 22, 2020

Looking at Mahler 9 alone, since you're using this example, there are new recordings coming out pretty regularly and so you'll anyway have to pick and re-pick. Maybe the truly iconic version is being recorded as we speak?
Conductors and orchestras are professionals with an artistic mission, and unless a production is obviously flawed in some way, the chances that you get bad artistic quality with well-established names in core repertoire is pretty slim.

And even if you won't take the risk and really only would run with Deutsche Grammophon and one single orchestra, it wouldn't help: Berlin Philharmonic and which conductor, recorded when?

Youtube is your friend in these matters. Just watch/listen to a few of the versions out there. I'm seeing one with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra and Abbado (it's HD and pretty gorgeous, production-wise), an older and well-known version with Bernstein and the Vienna PO, a not-too-old version with Haitink and the Berlin PO, that's all with video; just as audio there's Karajan's 1982 version (also Berlin PO), some others with various conductors, and bwam, there's again the Berlin PO with Simon Rattle on video. Endless joy. Comparing interpretations is great fun.

Pro-tip: never read comments on youtube, and take all the ratings on Amazon.com with a shovel of salt.
posted by Namlit at 12:20 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]

One of the great pleasures of listening to classical music is listening to unfamiliar performances of your favorite pieces. I would not trip about trying to hear the authoritative take on each piece first, and in fact I would encourage you not to; then you have more fun waiting as you discover the performances that speak to you rather than assuming, well, you've heard this certain Carmina Burana so you know what it's all about.
posted by potrzebie at 12:24 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]

All the recordings are wonderful, so don't worry. Get to live performances, would totally pick a good amateur live performance of Carmina Burana over the perfect recording in the best super-fancy surround sound suite. Have listened to classical my entire life and yes there are imperfections and versions I may not replay but not sorry about listening to any. Don't stop at 15 works, listen to a bit of everything, Ives/Poulenc/Monteverdi/Satie/Glass/Pachelbel/Hovhaness/Debussy/Mozart/Chopin/Copland/Schoenberg/Barber
Consider going broad over deep.
Enjoy, you're in for wonderful discoveries, transcendental moments!
posted by sammyo at 12:25 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]

It's perfectly OK to get placeholder recordings from Goodwill for a couple bucks and then "upgrade" at a later opportunity if you want.

I've ended up with a lot of redundant recordings. For some pieces I'm pretty indifferent, but for others I definitely prefer one over the others. Often it has to do with tempo more than any other aspect of performance.

I would say that if you get a recording of a piece and you don't care for it, especially in the Baroque or Classical periods, go on YouTube and try out a few different recordings. Some groups play things like they're dusty old museum pieces, but other bands play things with a lot more life, as though they actually enjoy them, which can turn a piece from boring and forgettable to a new favorite.

Different performances can expose different aspects of compositions, so it can be interesting to listen to different conductors and orchestras. There are even different recordings of a piece by the same conductor /orchestra that sound very different. One of the first LPs I bought was Dvořák's Symphony no. 9 by Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic (the other was Donna Summer Double Live). I loved it. Later when I decided to get it on CD I found what I thought was the same thing, but it was a different recording and I didn't like it as much (it felt less precise, less alive, and there was this one brass entrance that was kind of... meh).

YouTube can be good for comparing recordings by different groups if you want. It can also be good for discovery if you follow some suggestion rabbits down their holes.

Good luck learning to like Mahler, I haven't managed it yet. I tend to like things that are firmly on one side or the other of the Romantic/Modern transition.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 12:26 PM on January 22, 2020 [2 favorites]

Another plug for live performances of anything at all over seeking out the best recordings, especially if it's opera. It can be less expensive than you'd think to get subscriptions, which'll encourage you to just show up to whatever's playing. That's a great way to find out what composers and styles you're really into, just from the variety.

That said, the times I've sought out particular recordings have mostly been because I asked someone who's a really big fan of a work what their favorite is and why, and that's always a good experience. I feel like listening to someone else gush enthusiastically is key.
posted by asperity at 12:59 PM on January 22, 2020

100% agreement with sammyo and asperity – live performance is thrilling and meaningful on a totally different level. If you're in Alexandria as your profile says, both of the Alexandria Symphony's two remaining programs this season are full of very lively, colorful rep!
posted by kalapierson at 2:19 PM on January 22, 2020

Am I correct in assuming that your plan is to listen to one performance of each of those 15 iconic pieces? If so, you shouldn't worry about missing some important detail or nuance in the piece because you chose the "wrong" performance, because it's simply impossible for any one performance to express all of the nuances that a piece can contain. So, since you're always going to miss out on something no matter what performance you choose to listen to, I think you'll be fine if you just pick any performance that seems popular or commonly recommended. If somebody recommends a performance, then there's something to like about it and probably not very much to dislike, so it probably won't be a waste of time to listen to it.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:59 PM on January 22, 2020

chiming in (i've performed Mahlers 1 - 6 and read 7 and 9) to say that in the US, Leonard Bernstein was responsible for the resurgence of interest in Mahler. i recommend any of his recordings, but especially with the New York Phil. he also recorded it with the Vienna Phil, Berlin and the Royal Concertgebouw.

edited to add that ironically, Vienna might not be the best bet for Mahler. the precision they're so prized for can detract from the lusciousness of the piece.
posted by hollisimo at 3:47 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]

Concur with the consensus that you can pick a tolerably well-reputed ensemble/conductor/label and be just fine. Over time you may develop preferences of your own, and that also is fine!

All I'll add is that if you hear something that just feels distractingly bad/wrong, try a different recording. I used to have a recording of a Haydn choral mass by a well-reputed ensemble that had this one... moment. The basses get a "sub Pontio Pilato" line all by themselves, and in this recording they sang the first vowel in "Pontio" slightly flat, very open (almost an "aw"), and heavily nasalized and it just threw me right out of the music, it was so Not Right. (I've sung in choirs since high school. Mine is not a great voice, but I understand good technique pretty well, and That Was Not It.)

I have a different recording of this mass now! I consigned the first one to the depths of my computer's recycle bin!

But if this never happens to you, yay -- you're fine.
posted by humbug at 3:51 PM on January 22, 2020

the Guardian's take is here.
posted by hollisimo at 3:52 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]

(We're assuming that you've watched that wild 1975 Bavarian TV staged version of Carmina Burana? It's really something! (It's on YT))
posted by ovvl at 4:07 PM on January 22, 2020

Porque no los dos? We live in a time of unprecedented access to nearly unlimited amounts of music. Why limit yourself to one recording of each? Listen to multiple versions; it doesn’t cost anything on YouTube, and Spotify premium is a flat rate.

I must say, though, this seems like exactly the wrong way to like classical music. Very top-down instead of bottom-up. My favorite classical pieces aren’t ones that someone else thought were important. My favorites are ones that I heard, usually on the radio, and wanted to hear again. Some of them (Swan Lake) are important. Others (Ravel’s Jeux d’Eaux) are less so. Over time, you’ll start to see patterns. You don’t have to know the entire history of the NFL to watch football; you just turn on a game one Sunday, and if you like it, you do it again next Sunday. Same thing with music.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:24 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]

Lots of great advice and insight above. I want to add that a fun website to read about different recordings of a particular work as an alternative to amazon user reviews is arkivmusic.com. They sell classical cds and some of the recordings are marked 'recommended' and include descriptive write-ups.

I worked a long while back as a record clerk at a Tower Records Classical store and one thing I learned there is that there are some interpretations that are good for showing what a particular score is about, but that doesn't mean they are definitive or that one would want to do without other interpretations. The recordings of Bruckner conducted by Fürtwängler are like that, they are great guides but aren't alone sufficient to convey everything in Bruckner; one needs to come at his symphonies from many different angles.

But what's being said above is surely right: don't worry too much about interpretations as you start listening.

(If you like to read, a book that might help you get oriented in some good ways *how* to listen is The Classical Style by Charles Rosen. It's a discussion of so-called sonata allegro form, which is a big paradigm in classical music -- and still being used by Mahler!)
posted by bertran at 7:13 PM on January 22, 2020

Have you heard of Sticky Notes? It's a great podcast about classical music, which I highly recommend. (It has a four-part discussion of Mahler's 9th, which - coincidentally - I'll be seeing a live performance of tomorrow - yay!)

The episode "The art of interpretation" is interesting because it is discussed how different various interpretations of pieces can be and how interpretive practices have changed over the years. It uses Beethoven's 5th as an example and some of the most iconic recordings of it are compared. To me, it shows on the one hand that interpretation does matter and that different performances can be told apart (sometimes easily), but on the other hand the piece always remains the same and any professional orchestra will bring out its beauty in different ways.

I can sometimes get lost in choosing the 'perfect' recording, but this really is an example of the paradox of choice. The time you spend agonizing over this decision, is better spent listening (and I agree that Youtube is a great place to start). Also, do you have any friends that are classical music fans? I've based many a decision on their wisdom.
posted by Desertshore at 3:14 AM on January 23, 2020 [1 favorite]

Agreeing with everyone else here, but especially kevinbelt; the things that become your favourites are not likely to be the 15 pieces on that list, no matter how carefully compiled.

You're better off treating that list as a springboard - see which ones grab you, and turn on the firehose of similar pieces on youtube/spotify/radio, concerts, and your local library, if it has a CD section. If Mahler 9 does it for you, you could look for Richard Strauss and other composers like them; if a Bach concerto is your jam, you could try Vivaldi concertos and Bach solo pieces; if a Beethoven piano sonata speaks to you, he wrote just as many string quartets, and Schubert might also scratch that itch. If Mozart and Haydn both turn out to be disappointments, you could ignore the whole classical period with no shame for a while.

When you've found pieces that are really special to you, not just at the top of a canonical hierarchy of culture, you can think about picking the recording or recordings that you want on CD forever. If it's for solo or small ensemble, you might even be able to play it one day and show everyone how you think it should sound.

You're talking about entering a world with centuries of passionate creativity here; a lot of corners are better-travelled, but there are diamonds everywhere. Don't worry too much about the grandness of the gate that you come in through.

Also, check out misteraitch's wonderfully curated quartet, trio, quintet, 6,7,8,9-et, and duo posts!
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 7:01 AM on January 23, 2020 [2 favorites]

First of all, for Mahler 9 it is New York Phil with Bernstein or gtfo!

But everyone else is right. The idea of "definitive" recordings are dumb. It's fun once you really get to know a piece to listen to different takes, but it's fine to just listen to whatever recordings you come across as well.

All classical music is covers and all orchestras are cover bands. Some are better covers than others, but many are quite great.
posted by Lutoslawski at 8:02 AM on January 23, 2020 [1 favorite]